Is The Thai Fsi Course Available With Thai Script?

[desi]

I think to start we should just type out the Thai. Digitizing the entire text (the English text + Thai phonetics) is much more work. If we got that step done, at least it could be used as a side-by-side supplement to the FSI text. Do the truly necessary part first, I say. Then worry about the rest only after that's done.

Rikker, if you two will be responsible for the Thai, I'd be happy to type in the English and drop in the transliteration. I type quite quickly and the transliteration is just a matter of cut and paste, so it's not that much of a bother.

Note: This is a project I've wanted to do for a long time, and having three people involved is fantastic.

[desi]

I just sort of assumed it could somehow be cut and pasted, and then it would be a simple job to add the Thai script to it. Hence, I was sort of confused why you would bring up the transliteration issue. After re-reading your post I do realise now that it probably wouldn't be as simple as that, so you have a valid point.

No prob. And it won't be that bad doing the English. I had another look and the English is sparce (about what I type each week anyway, only this will have continued use

[SoftWater]

Just started having a go at this, not taking too long, but already two issues have arisen.

FSI uses colloquial tones, and therefore to represent them accurately in the Thai we’ll have to use colloquial spellings or the tones of the script won’t match the audio. Having to write มั้ย instead of ไหม I can live with, but เค้า instead of the correct เขา really grates! This will have to be mentioned in a foreword note somewhere, otherwise those that primarily want the Thai script to learn reading/writing could get confused (and misled) if they start thinking the colloquial spelling is the correct spelling for written Thai.

Also, given that there is more than one transcriber, there is the issue of what to do about spacing (that old chestnut again!). I have my own instinctive ‘feel’ for when to space (like between a function change {like when a question follows a statement}, or after a polite particle, and so on) but that will no doubt be inconsistent with other transcribers. Are there any hard and fast rules about spacing? (If not, perhaps we should define some for the purpose of this project?)

Edited September 6, 2009 by SoftWater

[Rikker]

I also started taking a stab at this, and thought about the same things.

I see what you're saying. However, I'm inclined to use the normal spellings, because part of learning Thai is learning the fact that the spelling and the colloquial pronunciation are not the same. Perhaps this warrants our own extension of the FSI manuscript, to explain the common deviations?

The ones I've seen so far are

เขา > เค้า

ไหม > มั้ย

หรือ > รึ

There was also เหรอ, but personally I think that one's sufficiently divergent from หรือ that it might be acceptable to use. But I could go either way.

I don't want to consistently use the non-standard spellings, even if they are more phonetically accurate, because I think the repetition of the non-standard forms does more harm than good so early in the learning process. That's why I recommend a section explaining this point, with examples from the text.

Clearly this of the reasons they use the romanized Thai -- to teach phonetically accurate colloquial Thai from the start, but while avoiding having to explain the spelling discrepancies.

Further thoughts?

[desi]

Further thoughts?

Where there is colloquial Thai, how about this?

ไหม (มั้ย)

Put the colloquial Thai in parentheses with a note somewhere explaining the reason.

For spacing... why not go with what Glenn has on his site?

http://thai-language.com/ref/spacing

[SoftWater]

I don't want to consistently use the non-standard spellings, even if they are more phonetically accurate, because I think the repetition of the non-standard forms does more harm than good so early in the learning process.

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I think the argument works both ways, depending on the learning focus of the student. From what I've garnered on TV, for example, there's a lot of people like me who would use a resource like this not to learn to read, but to practice and perfect pronunciation. In cases like this, accuracy between the audio and script is the whole point of having the Thai. On the other hand, for those that are just learning to read, the audio is a secondary resource, and the primary focus is between the natural English text and the natural Thai text.

Whether non-standard spellings are harmful or not early in the learning process is a moot point. I'm not an academic in this field, so you may have research to back it up, but my impression is that this is often said as a prescription rather than an empirically-supported description about learning. One thing that occurs to me here is some people want to learn to write Thai so they can read/write SMS msgs with their partners, or use chat rooms, internet sites like iTalki and email, which are littered with colloquial spellings. They may never be interested in writing 'correct Thai' at all. I know there is a prescriptive conservatism that says this is 'wrong', and that you should 'learn the rules before you break them', but I'm not sure we should automatically endorse that without some reflection on who we are writing this for (and whether it is true or not).

Of course, we can't be all things to all people, but its total speculation to suppose we know who will be the main audience/users of a resource like this, so I guess the point I'm coming round to (sorry, long-winded as ever; I'm trying to work out a solution as I consider the arguments!) is something like Desi's suggestion of using parentheses. My concern is only for the clarity of the presentation if or where there is a deviant tone in the middle of a string (so maybe we would have to space after any such deviance?).

Have to rush now, haven't had chance to check the link about spacing. Will reply to that later.

Clearly this of the reasons they use the romanized Thai -- to teach phonetically accurate colloquial Thai from the start, but while avoiding having to explain the spelling discrepancies.

Further thoughts?

Agreed. Those clever FSI people - so, phonetic script has some advantages in pedagogy over natural scriipt, after all. An interesting discovery (for me) in itself.

Edited September 7, 2009 by SoftWater

[SoftWater]

I've been mulling this over through the morning. I started off with no particular preference, other than an acquired 'distaste' for writing colloquially, but I'm now coming round to the view that the weight of argument is on the side of keeping faith with the audio and phonetic script. In short, for two reasons.

i. using colloquial spelling where necessary is an accurate and faithful rendition of the original FSI phonetic text (and the intent of the original authors), which itself is faithful to real spoken Thai.

ii. since you can't learn to read/write Thai from FSI (there's no pedagogy for learning reading), the Thai script's function is mostly reading practice for those that have already acquired the basic elements of Thai writing. Therefore, I think Rikker's point that colloquial spelling could be harmful, if true, is probably not an issue. You would need to have already learned the basics to use the Thai text in FSI.

That said, a note would need to be included about the colloquial spellings as already pointed out (I, for one, was an early victim of James Higbie's unacknowledged use of colloquial spellings in his 'Thai Reference Grammar' book, and I would hate that to happen to anyone else!)

OK, I've convinced myself. Anyone else?

Edited September 7, 2009 by SoftWater

[desi]

OK, I've convinced myself. Anyone else?

The plan is to reproduce the FSI materials using Thai script, so for me it is a simple decision to make.

But that is because (unlike you two), I don't mind colloquial Thai. Whereas I have a strong distaste for transliteration sans Thai script.

And besides, wouldn't changing the colloquial Thai in the copy mean changing the sound files too? Or why spend the time retyping using Thai script at all if it cannot be followed in the sound files?

As mentioned, the compromise could be to put the colloquial Thai inside parenthesis to make the point that there is a difference. For good measure, Rikker could draft up a page to explain.

[Scottish Thailander]

I've been mulling this over through the morning. .....

i. using colloquial spelling where necessary is an accurate and faithful rendition of the original FSI phonetic text (and the intent of the original authors), which itself is faithful to real spoken Thai.

ii. since you can't learn to read/write Thai from FSI (there's no pedagogy for learning reading), the Thai script's function is mostly reading practice for those that have already acquired the basic elements of Thai writing. Therefore, I think Rikker's point that colloquial spelling could be harmful, if true, is probably not an issue. You would need to have already learned the basics to use the Thai text in FSI.

.........

OK, I've convinced myself. Anyone else?

SW,

I may be an exception as I want to keep an academic slant to my acquisition of Thai (as well as be aware and use colloquial in everyday street use, of course), but here is my tuppence worth anyway:-

I agree with you in (i) above but again, the original was always (as far as I can see) intended to be only a spoken tutorial and writing would be covered seperately. If people are to (later) read out fomal documents they will likely want to (depending on the audience) read it out as if it was written colloquially, therefore, I would agree with Desi's suggestion...

ไหม (มั้ย)

Put the colloquial Thai in parentheses with a note somewhere explaining the reason.

... that way they see the formal 'written' form and the colloquial 'spoken' form side by side which I think would be beneficial.

As for point (ii)...

... There may be better ways, but one use of the two scripts together would be for those that, like me, and apparently (the latter part) you,

there's a lot of people like me who would use a resource like this ... to practice and perfect pronunciation.

... who would use a resource like this to learn (by comparison/wrote, I take your point on the 'no pedagogy') and practice 'correctly toned' reading and vocab, and to practice and perfect pronunciation.

As I said, maybe a minority (and I understand minorities can not always be catered for), but, there are so few well transcribed scripts with good audio to practice with that I think it would be a shame to miss the opportunity to include both versions in this project.

Selfish? Maybe!

You guys will be doing the legwork so the ultimate decision is obviously yours. Whatever the outcome, I appreciate all the work you guys will be doing on this. Thanks.

[SoftWater]

About the two sites hosting FSI courses:

www.fsi-language-courses.com was the first. The guy who started it "disappeared" (no one can contact him), so it's no longer updated, and materials newly digitized by site users can't be added.

www.fsi-language-courses.org was started to mirror the old site, but also to add new materials digitized since the old one disappeared. This should be considered the "main" site now, since it contains many new additions not on the original one. It was started by users from the old site, I believe.

Some idiot has decided to take down the second of these two links with a hack. Can only hope the gov'ts new focus on internet crime catches the children repsonsible and sends them on a behavioural modification course involving a size 10 kick up the backside. Pathetic.

[Scottish Thailander]

About the two sites hosting FSI courses:

www.fsi-language-courses.com was the first. The guy who started it "disappeared" (no one can contact him), so it's no longer updated, and materials newly digitized by site users can't be added.

www.fsi-language-courses.org was started to mirror the old site, but also to add new materials digitized since the old one disappeared. This should be considered the "main" site now, since it contains many new additions not on the original one. It was started by users from the old site, I believe.

Some idiot has decided to take down the second of these two links with a hack. Can only hope the gov'ts new focus on internet crime catches the children repsonsible and sends them on a behavioural modification course involving a size 10 kick up the backside. Pathetic.

Agreed. Pathetic.

Try skipping the front page...worked for me.

[SoftWater]

Try skipping the front page...worked for me.

Thanks. How do i do that? I tried adding /thai to the address but got a 'no such page' error.

[Rikker]

As mentioned, only the front page appears to have been hacked. In the meantime, use this URL:

http://fsi-language-courses.org/Content.php?page=Thai

[Scottish Thailander]

Try skipping the front page...worked for me.

Thanks. How do i do that? I tried adding /thai to the address but got a 'no such page' error.

Rikker beat me to it.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Scottish Thailander

[katana]

This one seems to work as well.

http://www.fsi-language-courses.org/Content.php

[kriswillems]

I am willing to help (with typing both Thai and English). But my work would need to be reviewed, because I make many mistakes in both languages.

I also want to help with the technical side of the work.

The perfect tool to work on a collaborative project like this is a wiki (look at the wikipedia, which is a huge collaborative project).

Anyone has a apache server running that he would like to share, so we could install a wiki?

(Hiring a shared server would cost around 1000B/year, without the domain name which is 400B/year).

Once we've installed a wiki it can be used for other collaborartive work on Thai language.

The project would be unique and would have a lot of potential.

[sanook2me]

I'd only popped into this forum(Thai language) a couple of times but i can see my posting has stirred it up a bit.

I'm impressed there are people determined and happy to help each other out in a positive manner (not like the main forum!!)

Everybody who has posted on this thread obviously have more Thai skills than i have but for my opinion as a low level reader of Thai.

I would prefer the Thai script to be correct in its spelling so i can recognise that word and store it away in my brain to be used again when seeing it in text.

I'm not sure what i can offer in terms of help but i would be happy to give my time in some way for this project.

(i can type extremely fast in English if its any help??) Thai is peck peck peck but English typing is all 8 fingers and thumbs touch typing.....

(i have access to server space free for a good cause and a website name that i currently do not use but is live, the server is housed with a friend so sometimes he messes around and its off air but 99% of the time its there its only off air when its not being used as in now my website has no current function...but this may change in a couple of months but all the work would be stored on server space i know this is not ideal but its free ;-) ..... cannot we not use a free service like wordpress?)

Thanks for the interest and creating a great project if we can get it off the ground....

[desi]

I also want to help with the technical side of the work.

The perfect tool to work on a collaborative project like this is a wiki (look at the wikipedia, which is a huge collaborative project).

Anyone has a apache server running that he would like to share, so we could install a wiki?

(Hiring a shared server would cost around 1000B/year, without the domain name which is 400B/year).

Once we've installed a wiki it can be used for other collaborartive work on Thai language.

The project would be unique and would have a lot of potential.

Kris,

I have a wiki installed on my site and right now it's just sitting there. Waiting.

I put it up for a collaborative project to take a shot at the top 300/500/1000 Thai must know words. What I've been doing is inputting the vocabulary from the top Thai beginners courses, along with the high frequency vocab Rikker shared here. Then I thought I'd compile it into one list and throw it on the wiki. Rikker also said that he could give a shot of coming up with a list from the list. After I got it going (I still have the vocab of four more books to key in), I was going to come here to see if anyone would like to help...

But it's there, waiting. Also, I haven't worked with wikis for years, so having someone more technically inclined involved would be fantastic.

Edited September 8, 2009 by desi

[DavidHouston]

A modest proposal:

Friends,

Might we consider creating a college assistance program for a Thai student or two from a poor family as part of this effort. Two students working for one month (four weeks), eight hours a day, five days a week during the school break would be a total of 320 hours; at 100 baht a month the total cost would be 32,000 baht or less than $1,000 US or 700 euros. If you can find students willing to work for 50 baht per hour (perhaps high school students) the costs would be proportionately less or more students could be engaged.

The students could listen to the dialogs and type what they hear. You set the rules for spelling. A lot of dialogs could be transcribed this way.

What do you think?

Edited September 8, 2009 by DavidHouston

[desi]

The students could listen to the dialogs and type what they hear. You set the rules for spelling. A lot of dialogs could be transcribed this way.

I pay a trained typist to do just that. But she charges by the page, not by the hour (typical for typing work). I believe it's 10-20 baht per page (I'll have to check). The price was so low, I was not really concerned. But my Thai teacher is concerned that I'm being overcharged.

After I got bored around lesson 7, she transcribed the rest of Pimsleurs Thai for me (8-30). And after my computer ate my vocab list for Thai for Beginners (I'd completed half the book) she took over that typing project as well (she's now into book three of four).

Edited September 8, 2009 by desi

[SoftWater]

Wiki, servers, students...wow, a lot of good ideas. Desi also mentioned (sorry, I can't remember it this was on the thread or PM) Google docs, which I've never used but am interested in finding out about.

With different transcribers the wiki/google thing might be the way to go, because one thing I see already is that there is going to be a huge amount of inconsistency in the the text and styles. I've had two people show me some offerings already and it's going to be a lot of work for anyone to go through all that (when you look at the whole text written up by X number of different people) and make it consistent. In a varied career, one of my former hats was working in publishing, and believe me when I say this project will founder on the rocks unless someone/s takes responsibility (and is given communal authority) to edit mercilessly. Hence, Wiki might be the answer to that. However, I would suggest you define a style guide for all contributors to follow before you go much further.

I didn't quite follow sanook2me's point about 'i would like the correct thai' - there's no question that we are aiming for anything less; the only issue is whether it is formal or colloquial.

For my part, the project I had in mind would have been conceived along the lines of a simple terms of reference:

"To add Thai script to the FSI document. Where there is doubt, the original should serve as the authority, and in the case of any discrepency between the text and the audio, the audio should take precedence."

Defined thus, the project is to add Thai script that matches the audio; it is not to revise, improve, change, update or otherwise tinker with FSI. It also means the spellings of Thai words should match the tones of the speakers (i.e., colloquial).

Others, I see, have a different conception. Before you go any further, my advice is to define your conception in a formal way like mine above. If you don't, you're going to have endless arguments right to the very end about what should or should not be done. Maybe if we get a number of clearly defined proposals we can then decide which one to adopt.

[Rikker]

SoftWater's right about this. Let's get it straight what are goals and methods are, and who will do what, to avoid arguing now (and more arguing later).

When I get a second (hopefully later today) I'll respond in a little more detail with my thoughts on the topics being discussed.

[kriswillems]

Maybe i'll give a bit background information about why to use a wiki.

- A wiki is easy to use, it's basically just plain text with a few layout features. Everyone on this forum is capable of using it.

- The layout of a wiki is partly fixed. But there would still need to be a small set of layout rules.

- A wiki allows you to let many users work one the same document.

- The information in a wiki can be organised in a hierarchic structure.

- A every small change is recorded in a history and can be undone, so you can't destroy anything.

- When using the Flaggedrevs extention, we could give reviewer rights to some people (Thai language experts), and show only the reviewed revisions to normal visitors of the wiki.

- Every page in the wiki has a discusion page which can be used for discussions about that page between authors.

- A wiki allows you to send messages between users that are shown to everyone via the talk page of the user.

- With a wiki you can always see who's working on what and thus avoid double work.

- A wiki is probably the most popular tool for collaborative document writing. It's used all over the internet and also within companies for writing internal documentation.

[kriswillems]

I think we need to discuss the following things:

I included my answers too. Maybe other people can give their opinion by answering the questions or by adding new questions and answers (please give the questions a number). I propose to have a majority voting on the questions that need to be answered soon.

1. Who's going to take care of which part of the typing work?

I think this question is going to be answered automatically once we set up a public platform, because we'll see what others are working on.

2. Who's going to be responsible for the layout?

I think in the first version focus should be on content and design should be minimalistic.

We can assign a layout specialist to clean up the layout later. I think Desi is good in graphic design....

3. What kind of platform will we use? (a wiki?)

I prefer a wiki.

4. Who's going to be responsible for setting up/maintaining the platform?

I can do that, if I can use Desi's server.

5. Do we write using colloquial Thai or formal Thai or both?

I prefer formal Thai.

6. How do the handle the tone marks on the phonetic script?

Don't know ... any suggestions?

7. Who will be the reviewer(s)?

I would be nice if Rikker or/and a native Thai speaker could help us with this.

8. Where will we host the website?

Desi offered to set up a wiki on her server. I think the offer of Desi is nice (and cheap).

Is Desi's website/server also fast for people outside Thailand? (I stay in Thailand).

9. What's the license on the original work and the work we produce?

We'll probably need to use the same license as on the FSI material.

All work would be in public domain.

Whether or not it can be used for commercial use by others depends on the FSI license.

We'll never close the information and we'll not use it for making profit.

10. What to do with the permissions? Do we allow everyone to edit our work (on our server)?

Or should people subcribe to our platform and be "screened" first? How do we protect our work from vandalism?

I think people should subscribe via e-mail or PM on this message board.

They will receive a login and password in a reply (they can change the password).

11. Are we going to improve weaknesses in the FSI documentation?

I think in the first version we don't need to improve the FSI documentation, except maybe only the most obvious mistakes.

12. Do we use FSI transliterations or another system?

Don't know ...

13. If audio and transliteration are different, what will be used?

The audio, but we'll write using formal Thai (if possible), even if there are mismatches between pronounciation and the way of writing.

We can add the pronounciation between brackets: เขา(เค้า)ไม่รักสัก(ซัก)คน

14. Are we publishing the reviewed versions of our documentation or always the last version?

I prefer the reviewed versions, but it should be possible to see the last draft version, via a few mouse clicks. (We could use wiki flaggedrevs for this).

15. Are you going to hire Thai people to do part of the work?

Because I've a Thai income, I can make only a small contribution (probably too small).

16. Are we going to put advertisement on our website to pay for expenses?

I prefer not.

Edited September 8, 2009 by kriswillems

[desi]

I think we need to discuss the following things:

I included my answers too. Maybe other people can give their opinion by answering the questions or by adding new questions and answers (please give the questions a number). I propose to have a majority voting on the questions that need to be answered soon.

1. Who's going to take care of which part of the typing work?

Kris: I think this question is going to be answered automatically once we set up a public platform, because we'll see what others are working on.

Desi: Throwing ideas out there... the wiki will most likely be set up to follow the sections listed in FSI, is that correct? I thought pages, but that's way too many... so do people sign up for certain sections? Drills, Exercises, Vocabulary... so would it be logical to have a Table of Contents with an area for people to sign in to say that they are working on that section?

2. Who's going to be responsible for the layout?

Kris: I think in the first version focus should be on content and design should be minimalistic.

Kris: We can assign a layout specialist to clean up the layout later. I think Desi is good in graphic design....

Desi: I'm happy to do it but I also vote for minimalistic. Let the content be the issue, not the design.

3. What kind of platform will we use? (a wiki?)

Kris: I prefer a wiki.

Desi: wiki

4. Who's going to be responsible for setting up/maintaining the platform?

Kris: I can do that, if I can use Desi's server.

Desi: Excellent. I'm glad that there is someone technical to take over the back end!

5. Do we write using colloquial Thai or formal Thai or both?

Kris: I prefer formal Thai.

Desi: As a compromise, I'd go with formal Thai with the colloquial Thai from the tapes parenthesized.

6. How do the handle the tone marks on the phonetic script?

Kris: Don't know ... any suggestions?

Desi: Do you mean the code? Or which tone marks? For tone marks, I'd go with thai2English.com's generic selection...

7. Who will be the reviewer(s)?

Kris: I would be nice if Rikker or/and a native Thai speaker could help us with this.

Desi: I vote for Rikker too (that was easy :-).

8. Where will we host the website?

Kris: Desi offered to set up a wiki on her server. I think the offer of Desi is nice (and cheap).

Kris: Is Desi's website/server also fast for people outside Thailand? (I stay in Thailand).

Desi: The server is in the US.

9. What's the license on the original work and the work we produce?

Kris: We'll probably need to use the same license as on the FSI material.

Kris: All work would be in public domain.

Kris: Whether or not it can be used for commercial use by others depends on the FSI license.

Kris: We'll never close the information and we'll not use it for making profit.

Desi: Same license as the FSI materials (it won't be changed considerably so has to stay with the same license).

Desi: I'm for it being a probono (community effort) - donating our efforts to the good of the community.

10. What to do with the permissions? Do we allow everyone to edit our work (on our server)?

Kris: Or should people subcribe to our platform and be "screened" first? How do we protect our work from vandalism?

Kris: I think people should subscribe via e-mail or PM on this message board.

Kris: They will receive a login and password in a reply (they can change the password).

Desi: Screened.

11. Are we going to improve weaknesses in the FSI documentation?

Kris: I think in the first version we don't need to improve the FSI documentation, except maybe only the most obvious mistakes.

12. Do we use FSI transliterations or another system?

Kris: Don't know ...

Desi: FSI would be typing letter by letter. It's easier/quicker to cut and paste using Thai2English.com.

13. If audio and transliteration are different, what will be used?

Kris: The audio, but we'll write using formal Thai (if possible), even if there are mismatches between pronounciation and the way of writing.

Kris: We can add the pronounciation between brackets: เขา(เค้า)ไม่รักสัก(ซัก)คน

Desi: Agreed, go with the audio and put pronunciation between brackets.

14. Are we publishing the reviewed versions of our documentation or always the last version?

Kris: I prefer the reviewed versions, but it should be possible to see the last draft version, via a few mouse clicks. (We could use wiki flaggedrevs for this).

Desi: I'll leave it up to those with more wiki experience than I have.

15. Are you going to hire Thai people to do part of the work?

Kris: Because I've a Thai income, I can make only a small contribution (probably too small).

Desi: I'm ok donating but I'd like to know that there are tight controls on the transcriptions (by page, not by hour).

16. Are we going to put advertisement on our website to pay for expenses?

Kris: I prefer not.

Desi: I prefer not.

17. Will this project have its own domain name? If so, what?

Desi: I'm happy to buy the domain name, but I believe the name should be chosen off the forum.

[Scottish Thailander]

.

There are many companies/individuals already using the FSI site info to produce and sell "FSI" packages to people unaware that this (these) site(s) exist. If you are putting in all the effort to improve it for the benefit of all then I think it would be a shame to allow others to abuse your intent and use the new work for their own commercial advantage/profit. Have you thought how you would prevent this? Or would you be happy to allow it?

.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Scottish Thailander

[Rikker]

One way of potentially doing that is releasing the new version under a non-commercial Creative Commons license, which permits free copying for non-commercial purposes only. It's unclear whether this is defensible, though, as the source material is public domain. It might not be sufficiently transformative to justify a new license.

But other than that I think it isn't worth the effort to try to prevent. The best way of doing so is simply by publicizing the freely available version, and spreading that as far and wide as possible. That way somebody who goes looking for FSI Thai will find our version, and not get duped into paying for something that freely available and in the public domain.

[SoftWater]

I would like to suggest that all those working on the FsiThai wiki migrate BACK to this thread as the principal means of communication. There are several reasons for this:

i. It's not easy to keep up with 'discussions' and issues on the wiki. The email alerts only tell you there has been a change, it does not tell you what the change is or if its relevant to you. When you go to the page, you have to search around to figure out what has been updated.

ii. it's not easy to communicate directly with individuals. For example, I left a msg on the talk page of lesson 4 ostensibly for Desi, but possibly Kris, and really for anyone that had a thought about it. I don't know that anyone saw the msg because they would only notice it if they had ticked 'watch this page'.

iii. I feel we've lost a certain sense of community that we had both here and in Rikker's google group (although the later was also not as easy as TV to follow conversations) since we migrated to the wiki.

iv. Keeping this thread alive will also potentially interest others to get involved, and to help others who would benefit from the site to know about when its in a usable state.

v. I figure all of us working on the wiki are still TV regulars, so its far less hassle to follow what's going on from here than having to sign in to the wiki all the time.

What do others think? Are there any disadvantages/problems with doing this?

Edited September 12, 2009 by SoftWater

[desi]

ii. I apologise. I got all wrapped up in figuring out how wiki code works, I forgot that part of it. But I'm watching now...

And since I've just started watching, I don't know the difficulties of i.

iii. Google Groups is working for me. And although it's a bit cumbersome, the problems I'm having may be down to my not being used to it. It's quick, it goes out to the whole group, and it's by subject.

Disadvantages to moving everything back to TV:

1) Some discussions on TV can get a bit long. And if I'm here chatting, I'm not coding. And if there is one thing I've learned in the past couple of days is this: coding in a wiki is a mind-boggling amount of work.

2) Here, the whole world is watching.

On the wiki I can edit what I put out there.

And while I cannot edit on Google Groups, it's only you guys seeing me fluff up (I'm especially brain dead before my coffee kicks in ;-)

I'm not totally dissing TV (I enjoy the community here too).

It's just that right now, I feel the need to spend more of my time on the coding end.

(And I can easily stay at TV for hours... as coming here grabs me to go peek here and there and OH! over there too

[SoftWater]

No need to apologise, Desi, I wasn't having a go at you, just making a point by example about communication.

However, I didn't know then what I know now, which is that the google group discussions were still going. I thought (mistakenly) that we'd agreed last week some time to move all discussion to the wiki. I foolishly stopped visiting the google group after that, figuring everyone else was doing likewise.

Edited September 12, 2009 by SoftWater