การ Or ความ ?

[Investorno]

I've studied Thai pretty seriously for 3 months now and I feel I am having decent progress. After initially taking classes at a language school I've now studied with a private teacher for two weeks.

The problem is that my teacher does not always know how to explain the rules of the Thai language.

Hence I do not understand when to use การ and when to use ความ when forming nouns.

In some cases it's quite easy like with การเมือง Affairs of Politics or Politics. I've just gotten used to the fact that ความ does not fit.

The problems arise however with words such as พยายาม (to try)

My teacher said that to turn this word into a noun I have to use ความ

Thus the word becomes ความพยายาม - 'an effort' or the process/task of 'trying'

My question is, what is the rule that says พยายาม cannot be การพยายาม which also would be the process/task of 'trying' ?

I've read Thai for Intermediate learners by Benjawan Becker and she does not explain in depth. She writes การ signifies 'the act of doing ...'

But is that also what ความพยายาม does; signifies the act of trying or making an effort?

I'm really confused and would greatly appreciate some lines on how others helped overcome the problem. Is it down to pure memorization of when to use it correctly in each individual case? Or was it some part of Becker's simple explanation (which I've gone over 20+ times) that I just didn't get?

Best regards,

Mr. งง

[Rikker]

As I recall this has been dealt with on other threads, but I can't seem to find them easily.

1. การ turns a verb into a gerund (verb-ing):

วิ่ง = v. to run

การวิ่ง = n. running, as in:

"I like running marathons" ฉันชอบการวิ่งมาราธอน

2. การ also turns a noun into an abstract noun meaning "the work and activities associated with [noun]"

เมือง = n. city, country

การเมือง = n. politics (the work and activities associated with government)

เงิน = n. money

การเงิน = n. finance (the branch of economics) -- as in: ความมั่นคงทางการเงิน "financial security"

การธนาคาร = banking, การต่างประเทศ = foreign affairs, etc.

3. ความ turns a verb or adjective into an abstract noun:

รัก = v. to love

ความรัก = n. love -- as in: เขากำลังมีความรัก "he's in love"

หวัง = v. to hope

ความหวัง = n. hope, aspiration -- as in: คุณต้องมีความหวังที่จะประสบความสำเร็จในอนาคต "You must have hope that you'll find success in the future."

โง่ = adj. stupid

ความโง่ = n. stupidity -- as in: ความโง่ไม่ใช่กรรมพันธุ์ "stupidity is not genetic" (though that's arguable)

ความรู้ = knowledge, ความสุข = happiness, ความดัน = pressure, ความเห็น = opinion, and so forth.

[Oneman]

when to use

การ

and when to use

ความ

when forming nouns.

Investorno -

Excellent question, especially considering you've only been studying Thai for 3 months.

The links below offer detailed explanations.

The key concept I got from studying those links is:

ความ

plus an adjective or a verb, makes a noun or adverb.

การ

plus a noun or verb, makes a noun expressing a general activity, process or state.

Many examples on the links below help to make it more clear, but, alas, not perfectly clear.

(And I'm not the expert, just copying and pasting.)

http://www.thai-language.com/id/132840

http://www.thai-language.com/id/131164

-- Oneman

Chiangmai

.

[Rikker]

And as per your original question, การพยายม would be equivalent to English "trying", while ความพยายาม is an abstract noun "effort, perseverence."

1. การพยายามเข้าใจภาษาไทย ก็ไม่ใช่เรื่องง่ายทีเดียว "trying to understand Thai is no simple task"

2. การเข้าใจภาษาไทยต้องใช้ความพยายามสูง "understanding Thai requires much effort / perseverance"

Much of the time you will be able to predict the meanings of words using การ or ความ. But sometimes particular combinations can have unexpected meanings. For example, ความ + เห็น (see) = opinion. So an opinion is literally how you see something.

I should also point out that in Thai you can make nouns out of phrases using ความ similar to what's done with English prefixes and suffixes:

ความไม่ลำเอียง "impartiality"

Sometimes they don't translate as single words into English:

ความไม่อยากรู้ความจริง "disinterest in knowing the truth (of the situation)"

But sometimes the meanings will come out very similar, if you switch การ and ความ:

การไม่รับผิดชอบของคุณทำให้บริษัทเสียลูกค้าหลายคน "Your not being responsible caused the company to lose many customers"

ความไม่รับผิดชอบของคุณทำให้บริษัทเสียลูกค้าหลายคน "Your irresponsibility caused the company to lose many customers"

[Investorno]

Thanks for your replies.

Rikker;

ความรัก = n. love

How about; การรักความเค็มเป็นยาก - Loving greed is hard

sorry if my sentence sounds wrong (just made it up) but isn't this an example of how I can use การ with the word รัก ?

Another word is ตรงเวลา - to be punctual

My teacher insists that only การ can be used with this word. But to use ความตรงเวลา thus forming the word 'Punctuality' seems pretty natural to me.

This adds to my confusion. If I write การตรงเวลา what would the english equivalent of this be?

The same goes for the word ประกาศ - to announce

My teacher once again insists that it is การ that goes with this word thus forming การประกาศ - announcement

However to me การประกาศ forms the english equivalent 'Announcing' whereas ความประกาศ to me would become an 'Announcment'.

Is my assumption in this case wrong?

I am more confused than ever. Is there something right in front of me that I am just not seeing or am I committing the atrocity of กำลังคิดมากเกินไป as my teacher believes?

Thanks for the sentence คุณต้องมีความหวังที่จะประสบความสำเร็จในอนาคต. It is a good one and also befitting my conundrum.

I find your second post rather illuminating"ความ + เห็น (see) = opinion. So an opinion is literally how you see something though.

"ความ + เห็น (see) = opinion. So an opinion is literally how you see something"

Can I also use การ with this word forming the words การเห็น - seeing ?

If that is the case and I can use both then I the smoke has begun to clear. However if การตรงเวลา means punctuality then I am back to square one and don't understand a thing.

Oneman;

Thank you for the links. I am studying them as I write this and they do help in some cases. However there's just some words where it makes more sense for me to use ความ. Almost in all those cases, as the two mentioned above my assumption is apparently wrong.

What helps though is to think of การ for activities as you wrote. However what I'm having a hard time getting around is the fact that my teacher says you use either or. She says in each case you can only really use either การ Or ความ.

However from Rikker's 2nd post I got the feeling that I can generally use both forming slightly different meanings. When I try to do that though my teacher says it just doesn't sound right. Just gotta keep memorizing I guess.

[SoftWater]

My teacher gave me the general rule like this:

Use การ to turn all verbs into nouns EXCEPT those that are related to human feelings, and the actions or states of individuals.

Use ความ to turn all adjectives into nouns AND those verbs that are related to human feelings, and the actions or states of individuals.

That's why we us ความ for love, hope, responsibility etc etc

I've found it works pretty well in practice, tho' i'm betting now there'll be a chorus of exceptions pointed out to me from the forum experts!

Edited September 8, 2009 by SoftWater

[Rikker]

The use of การ and ความ to form words is linguistically productive, as it's called. This means that native speakers don't simply draw on a fixed set of constructed words, but they actively create new, non-established words or phrases by applying general rules. For native speakers, this is often subconscious.

Using Google in cases like this can be helpful. I happen to disagree with your teacher regarding ความตรงเวลา, and a Google search for ความตรงเวลา turns up thousands of hits, including some dictionary entries with the meaning "punctuality." Granted, thousands of hits is relatively few, but it is enough to show that while not a particularly common phrase, it does seem to be used in Thai. If there were only a few hundred (or fewer) hits for the word, then I'd probably agree that it's not something most people would understand.

Even though use of การ and ความ is productive, however, convention must be taken into account.

ความประกาศ is not conventional. That's because there are more ways than just การ or ความ to nominalize verbs (to nominalize means to create a new noun from another word). You also have คำ and ข้อ, which you might want to ask you teacher about. The conventional nominalized form of ประกาศ is ข้อประกาศ, or less commonly คำประกาศ.

คำ is used to nominalize things related to speech or words. คำแปล = translation, คำพูด = speech, คำพิพากษา = judgment (of a court), คำถาม = question, คำตอบ = answer / reply, and so forth.

ข้อ is used for single items or things that belong to a larger set. ข้อประกาศ = announcement (especially among a list of several), ข้อเท็จจริง = fact, ข้อมูล = information, ข้อคิดเห็น = an opinion (a specific individual opinion, unless context dictates that it is used in plural), ข้อสอบ = question(s) on an exam, and so forth.

I think your teacher may be unconsciously putting a bit of a straitjacket on your Thai. In general, everything a language teacher says should be taken with a grain of salt (or few). Every rule has exceptions, and frequently native speakers of a language are unable to explain those exceptions, unless specifically trained to do so. So instead they may tell you lots of things like "you can say X but not Y", but without giving you the tools to use the language productively yourself.

And in particular with Thai language teachers, they tend to skew towards the more formal, proper Thai, even if it means telling their students to say things that sound totally unnatural in practice.

Nothing against your teacher specifically, but it's certainly common.

[SoftWater]

My teacher gave me the general rule like this:

Use การ to turn all verbs into nouns EXCEPT those that are related to human feelings, and the actions or states of individuals.

Use ความ to turn all adjectives into nouns AND those verbs that are related to human feelings, and the actions or states of individuals.

That's why we us ความ for love, hope, responsibility etc etc

I've found it works pretty well in practice, tho' i'm betting now there'll be a chorus of exceptions pointed out to me from the forum experts!

I would just add (in defense of my teacher) that she soon supplemented that with (as Rikker mentions) constructions like คำตอบ คำถาม คำอธิบาย and ข้อสอบ ข้อความ and so on, but certainly for me, the general rule solved my problems with this issue. However, I would like to know if there is a general English way to understand the meaning of การ when it appears as a suffix to a word. This confuses the hel_l out of me!

[Rikker]

SoftWater, I was referring to the OP's teacher -- we were writing our posts at the same time, and I didn't even notice yours until just now.

Can you give some examples of การ as a suffix that confuses you? (Also note that there are sound-alike suffixes -- การ, การณ์, and กาล, all with different meanings.)

[Rionoir]

Wow these are some longgggg answers for something that I thought was pretty simply explained in my class at Chula. Essentially they told us การ is used with verbs that you can "see", while ความ is used with verbs that are internal or can't be seen. ความรัก .. การวิ่ง .. etc..

99% of the time that is the easiest way to think about it.

[Rikker]

I do tend to be verbose. A long response for a long question.

But I think their explanation -- if that was really all there was to it -- is pretty terrible. Can you see การคิด or การสมมุติ?

Sometimes simple explanation = simplistic understanding.

[SoftWater]

I am more confused than ever. Is there something right in front of me that I am just not seeing or am I committing the atrocity of กำลังคิดมากเกินไป as my teacher believes?

There's no such thing. When teachers say this it means they don't know how to help you solve the difficulty you have. That may be a sign of a bad teacher (if they do it frequently), or just that this questin hasn't come up for them in class before.

In this kind of situation , a good teacher would tell you that s/he didn' t know off the top of his/her head, but would find out or address it next lesson.

A GREAT teacher would tell you to give a 5-minute talk explaining the differnence between การ and ความ for the next class, thus motivating you to go and find out for yourself (which in a way you have by coming here). Meanwhile, the teacher swots up a good answer and with some good examples on the assumption that you will still be confused by next week. The chances are tho' that you may solve the problem yourself and far more effectively (i.e, for good) by doing this, and when you give your 5-minute talk you might just give the teacher something s/he can use in the future for other students.

Why don't you plan a 5-minute talk on this and ask your teacher if you can give it in the following class? (Please give her chance to prepare too!)

Edited September 9, 2009 by SoftWater

[Rikker]

For things like this, if your teacher can't explain the difference, you could also ask her to read through the explanations given in a Thai dictionary, like the Royal Institute Dictionary. That might help her be better able to explain it to other students, too. Covertly teaching the teacher. Because I agree with SoftWater that "you're thinking too much" is a cop out. It's not that the teacher doesn't know it, but natives have to consciously learn how to explain these things, or they aren't going to do very well at teaching foreigners. You have to know pedagogy, too.

ความ น. คํานําหน้ากริยาหรือวิเศษณ์เพื่อแสดงสภาพ เช่น ความตาย ความดี ความชั่ว

Translated:

ความ n. prefix on a verb or adjective that shows a state or condition, ex: ความตาย "death"; ความดี "goodness"; ความชั่ว "evil"

การ น. งาน, .... ถ้าอยู่หน้านาม หมายความว่า เรื่อง, ธุระ, หน้าที่, เช่น การบ้าน การครัว การคลัง การเมือง, ถ้าอยู่หน้ากริยา ทํากริยาให้เป็นนาม เช่น การกิน การเดิน

Translated:

การ n. work ... if placed before a noun, it means "matters of", "affairs of", "duties of", ex: การบ้าน "homework"; การครัว "cooking, kitchenwork"; การคลัง "treasury affairs"; if placed before a verb, it makes the verb into a noun, ex: การกิน "eating, dining"; การเดิน "walking"

[Rionoir]

I do tend to be verbose. A long response for a long question.

But I think their explanation -- if that was really all there was to it -- is pretty terrible. Can you see การคิด or การสมมุติ?

Sometimes simple explanation = simplistic understanding.

Hmm.. never heard of การคิด, what is it? ความคิด means thought, which again, u can't see. I don't know the other word

I also think you are incorrect on ความตาย rykker:

การตาย - Death, or the process of dying, which you can see

ความตาย - the CONCEPT of death, which you can't see

Again, the explanation I was given holds up. And it is certainly not a terrible way to explain these words... in fact, it's easy for me to remember these two words meanings because one I can see, one I can't.

I don't know any words off the top of my head this method doesn't work for, but at the very least it seems to me to be nearly always true with the words that I've learned so far.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Rionoir

[Rikker]

การคิด = thinking, การสมมุติ = pretending, supposing, การจินตนาการ = imagining, การสันนิษฐาน = hypothesizing, การย่อย = digesting (e.g. food), การระเหย = evaporating, การปฏิสนธิ = conception, fertilization (e.g. of an egg by sperm), การล่องหน = disappearing (usu. by magical means), การนิ่งเฉย = showing no outward response.

If their explanation works for you, that's cool. I just don't think it's a very good explanation. Probably the easiest way to explain it in a way that makes it easy for an English speaker to internalize is to compare it to -ing in English. If you couldn't figure out การคิด, apparently they didn't explain the การ prefix very well...?

Their explanation that ความ is for things you can't see is better. That's also how I explained it, but I used the word "abstract" instead.

[mangkorn]

การเมือง

[Johpa]

The use of การ and ความ to form words is linguistically productive, as it's called. This means that native speakers don't simply draw on a fixed set of constructed words, but they actively create new, non-established words or phrases by applying general rules. For native speakers, this is often subconscious.

Or, as my Chomskian professors would have noted, it allows for the infinite creation of new linguistic thoughts and sentences by providing for unlimited embedding of concepts.

การ not only can be used to create a noun out of a verb, but also creates a noun out of an entire verb phrase. From a syntactic point of view, it neuters the tense out of the verb, the same function that that English accomplishes with the -ing gerund suffix. This becomes especially abstract in Thai as on the surface Thai verbs only have a single tense, compared to English where the verbs evidence two tenses. And it becomes more common in Thai as Thai, especially the written version, is far more topic oriented than subject oriented. In English we often find this a bit old fashioned and stilted as in phrases when someone prefaces a sentence with phrases like "As for the ....." or "In regards to the...."

As Rikker points out, all this is done subconsciously and the native speaker is not able to explain the rules. If you wish to be cured of insomnia I could propose some linguistic rules that might explain it all, but I shall spare you that futile gesture. For purposes of learning Thai, just listen and read and you will eventually get the hang of it subconsciously as your brain's language centers are wired no differently than that of a Thai speaker. Resistance is futile, but effort is necessary.

[SoftWater]

From a syntactic point of view, it neuters the tense out of the verb, the same function that that English accomplishes with the -ing gerund suffix.

Thanks Johpa, that is a most excellent way to describe the function of a gerund and การ. Never come across that way of putting it before.

[Investorno]

I appreciate all the answers (both the concise and minuscule ones ).

As one of you noted, maybe I'll just have to gradually remember what goes with each individual word before I fully understand it.

If I get a 'eureka' experience one of these days I will surely post about it here to help others that may be having difficulty as well.