Movie Idea - Western Women In Paradise

[Eggmeng]

Hello Ladies,

I'm a screenwriter and filmmaker who wants to shoot a low budget independant film here. A long time resident on one of Thailand's paradise islands, my plan is to realize the story right here, and perhaps even cast the movie from the local expat population.

I've always liked writing roles for women. I find there are two few good ones. I have an idea for a bittersweet comedy about a group of single Western women who meet while on vacation in Thailand for the first time, and look forward to some flirtations and maybe even holiday romance.

They would not be considered undesirable in their own countries, where they are used to getting plenty of attention when they go out, and so they are wholly unprepared when they find themselves neglected by the vacationing Thai girl fixated males, when they get here.

I don't claim it's a premise that's particularly original, in fact I've been inspired in part by some of the threads I've read here, and on another expat forum when I lived in Cambodia. I do however, hope to create a story and an international cast of characters that does justice to the wackiness that is peculiar to the Southeast Asia vacation.

Anyone care to contribute some ideas based on stories imagined or experienced?

[eek]

Who is your target audience? Women? Men..? Mixed?

As a woman living in Thailand (who came to Thailand single) it doesnt reflect my own experience, however it does reflect some western mens notion of a western womans experience (and, of course, i imagine some womens experiences too). Thus, the topic wouldnt particularly engage me.

...but good luck with the idea.

[britmaveric]

Very cliche, but its a movie - not supposed to be reality.

[too true]

have to agree with eek. can see how it would appeal to some people, but totally doesn't reflect what i've experienced in thailand.

don't know about the rest of you, but many western girls i've met here who are on holiday have hooked up with thai guys and haven't been at all interested in western men while here.

[too true]

Very cliche, but its a movie - not supposed to be reality.

Of course not, but it feeds what many people think to be the reality - contributes to the stereotype. Not offended by it in the least - been here too long to be affected by stereotypes of western women - just pointing it out.

[Eggmeng]

Most movie romances are based initially on cliches. You might even say it’s a cliché to fall in love in the traditional sense, or become infatuated, to have a holiday romance, or to simply want to get laid on vacation. As the French filmmaker Jean Luc Godard said “It’s not where you take it from, it’s where you take it to.”

An American spinster falls in love with an Italian on her first trip abroad. Some might call that a cliché. But the 1955 "Summertime" with Katherine Hepburn remains an intelligent and beautifully poignant movie.

Many years ago before I came to Thailand for the first time, I used to hear about European women who went to the Caribbean and West Africa for the local color. (There’s probably a good story there, too.) That sounded like a stereotype to me, but I was nonetheless half expecting when I came to Thailand to see Western girls with beach boys. But Brit says that Western girls mooning over Western boys here is the stereotype. The truth is that since both scenarios are frequent realities, depending on your point of view they are both potentially “stereotypes.” My purpose here however is not to defend my premise. Only a good script will do that.

I do like the idea of one or more of the ladies hooking up with a local at some point. As a matter of fact, a Thai man (or perhaps a Burmese or a Nepalese) might end up being the most sympathetic male in the story. It would make sense. Not long ago I sat with a likeable young Khmer man over beers in Phnom Penh, and listened to him tell me in good English how much he wanted to date Western women, but how he was too shy to approach them.

Eek, I'm not targeting either men or women. I think both enjoy clever romantic comedies whether the leads are male or female. "Bridget Jones Diary" comes to mind as does "Legally Blonde", as examples of modern movies that did well commercially and critically, with female leads.

Anecdotes that might inspire details, subplots or characters are mainly what I’m looking for.

[chiangmaibruce]

Well I think there's a rich vein of material to work with amongst the farang man-farang woman-thai women-thai man situation. Interesting not only in itself, but also to the extent that it may (or may not) be a reflection or indicator of the state of gender relations in western countries. The other expat forums will provide fuller and more rounded discussions than you will find here in Thaivisa (for this particular issue) for reasons that will not be mentioned here. Still ... you might receive some interesting material via PM.

You may or may not have seen a recent article (and subsequent discussion) in the 'Life' section of the BKK Post web site ... article appeared about 2 weeks ago and was written by an Asian lady who grew up in Scandinavia and is now in Thailand ... Rikke someone ??? Google on "Bangkok Post Rikke Fever of Love"

Good luck with your project ... will you have any roles for lanky loveable Aussies? I'd only need a small trailer and a couple of PA's

PS: I hope you're not a troll ... I'm getting excited already

Edited September 24, 2009 by chiangmaibruce

[mssabai]

I would find your movie very amusing if they good guy turned out to be the sweet innocent Thai man who rescues the farang lady from the big bad western meanie! All to often I have seen this as being the other way around.... and I am coming from the perspective of a western/thai relationship. Working in tourist areas seems to bring out the worst in many people, especially with regards to their relationships.

I think you have to specify where and what age groups you are talking about. The situation is very different in different areas of Thailand. On islands such as Phangan, Phi Phi and Lanta, the predominantly young travellers are either just interested in each other, or the girls start hooking up with beach bar boys. As there aren't many girlie bars in these parts, thai ladies don't play such a big role. In Pattaya, Phuket, Koh Samui etc it is more families and older travellers and many more girlie bars. These areas tend to be where men start hooking up with Thai women.

But I don't think you are going to get much sympathy in the ladies forum for an idea which sees western women feeling dejected because they are being ignored by the western men and they go towards the locals as a last resort - I have certainly never seen this scenario, and it paints a rather pathetic picture of women.

Um and the phrase "the local colour"....

[sbk]

mssabai.

Honestly, this kind of sounds like another troll inhabiting the ladies forum to try and make another point about western women. However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt for now and see how things progress.

Fact is, western women are "neglected" by most western men in Thailand. The fact also remains that very very few western women tourists come to Thailand looking for men and the idea of painting western women as desperate to find a man no matter where they happen to be is a tad ludicrous. A group of girls on holiday looking for prince charming in western form? More likely, a group of girls on holiday, getting pissed and having a good time.

[britmaveric]

^never seen any western birds have an issue with finding western lads in Thailand. Contrary to popular believe there are lads here that just arent interested in thai ladies for serious relationships.

[Eggmeng]

Folks I'm not a troll. I have better things to do than try to provoke people gratuitously. This kind of knee jerk reaction is something I find frustrating about these forums. As you can see I don't post much. The irony is, I feel like I'm the one who's being baited, and now have to waste time defending myself.

Bruce: I didn't see that article about Rikke but I'll look it up... I only know of this forum and the one run by BP...The script I'm trying to finish now, has a character who is an Oz educated Khmer tycoon, but he's neither lanky nor lovable. And the only thing Australian about him is his accent. PM me if you want!

Ladies, please reread my posts. I fear some of you are putting words in my mouth. Here's what I wrote:

"I have an idea for a bittersweet comedy about a group of single Western women who meet while on vacation in Thailand for the first time, and look forward to some flirtations and maybe even holiday romance."

Just like some men do. One of the alluring things about Thailand is that there are young single people here from all over the world (yes, including the locals!) I guess I have an idea that many people in their twenties are still in some sort of romantic stage of life. But it's been a long time since I was that young or lived in the West. Am I out of touch? Have things changed so much in recent decades?

But I don't think you are going to get much sympathy in the ladies forum for an idea which sees western women feeling dejected because they are being ignored by the western men and they go towards the locals as a last resort - I have certainly never seen this scenario, and it paints a rather pathetic picture of women.

Wow, Mssabai! I didn't write that. Don't know where you got the idea. I said one of my characters would hook up with a local guy. I didn't say when or why. Maybe she's the one in the group who decides she's attracted to beach boys. Maybe it's because she meets one who has great dope, or is a great kisser, or she loves jetskiing. Girls just wanna have fun, right? Or, he rescues her from the farang meanie.

When you write a movie, unless you're a genius, you need a plot. "Some girls go on holiday and get pissed and have a good time" isn't a plot. "A Western girl goes on holiday to Thailand and gets rescued by a nice young Thai man from a Western jerk" is a plot. But it's not the story I want to tell this time around. If it's one you'd like told however, to set the record straight or because it reflects your experiences, and you care to take a shot, I can recommend some books on screenwriting. Or, you might consider making a documentary. I'll be happy to do your camera work if you can afford me.

Regarding my comment about "local color", did you not get that the phrase was part of the stereotype to which I alluded?

If some would like to turn this into some kind of gang bash about mens' misconceptions about what women want, I would be happy to see the thread closed, which should also dispel any ideas about my intentions in posting.

[Patsycat]

I had a lovely romantic romp for three weeks with a really witty, nice Canadian on Koh Samui a few years ago.

[eek]

Sorry to nit pick, but also, i think many western women dont see going with a Thai man as any kind of fall back. Some (like myself) are physically attracted to Thai men (although i think most women are more attracted to interesting and fun men regardless of nationality). Im sure some women come here with no interest in hooking up with western men at all. For the most part i imagine most are just interested in having fun, not looking to get a bf, get laid or whatever, and dont pay a blind bit of notice to the men. I think its the men who have this idea that the women are getting a bit of a som nam na thing.

To be honest i think a man writing a story about women and how they interact/bond/etc would be quite difficult. I could be wrong of course. I also think a woman writing about a group of mens experience in Thailand would be hard also. Dunno though!

[Eggmeng]

Sorry to nit pick, but also, i think many western women dont see going with a Thai man as any kind of fall back.

Never said it was. Never suggested it was. Please read my last post. I adore Thai women. I see no reason why Western women wouldn't like Thai men, notwithstanding my limitation as a heterosexual.

Writing a screenplay is hard. Writing a good one is REALLY hard. Writing about women as a man is a special kind of challenge and one that many male screenwriters don't take on. I probably wouldn't attempt it myself, except for the fact that a screenplay I wrote when I was 22 years old for a well known young screen actress, got her attention and nearly launched my career. Admittedly the 17 year old character was interacting mostly with her younger brother in my script, which is a very different thing from when grown women interact together.

But many movie scripts end up as collaborations between more than one writer, for good reasons. I've never found myself in that situation but I'm not opposed to it.

For the most part i imagine most are just interested in having fun, not looking to get a bf, get laid or whatever, and dont pay a blind bit of notice to the men.

Eek, you may be right, but that's not the stuff movies are made of. They're usually driven by a plot, and elements of conflict. Romance in its various forms provides many that are tried and true. Someone needs to be thwarted in their ambition, and then attempt to overcome. Have there been movies made where people are mostly just having fun? Sure. But if you look hard enough, you will almost always find a plot, and obstacles that get surmounted by the protagonists.

As for realism, it's just not that important. If it was, movies would be a whole lot less interesting.

On one of the first days in my screenwriting classes at film school, the professor began by asking; "What are we doing when we write movies?" The question was so vague everyone sat stumped. Finally I ventured; "Lying."

"Right!"; he said, and class began. I was pretty pleased about that!

[sbk]

Yes, well sorry if you are offended by my post, but the fact remains that there are many men on this forum who fail to grasp that the ladies forum is not the place for their misogyny. Hence, the need for careful scrutiny and moderation on posts here.

As for your screenplay, well I'll be honest. Chick flicks aren't my thing, cliched story lines and romance are not something I would ever pay money to watch so I think that my input on it wouldn't be of much help since I am not of your target audience.

Perhaps women who've never been anywhere outside their own countries would like it.

[Eggmeng]

SBK: Really? I thought the Ladies Forum would be like Ladies Night at the singles clubs I used to go to in my twenties. You know, where the women would get pissed until around midnight and then the bouncers would let in the men, who had assembled outside, and the ladies would fall all over them because they'd been deprived of male companionship for a couple of hours. I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that many of us actually believed that. Meanwhile the club owners were laughing all the way to the bank. (Hope you have a sense of humor too.)

On the other hand I'm sure there are men who get their backs up when they see a heading like Ladies Forum. Some people just can't stand not being invited to the party and will gate crash it and take their revenge by being boors when they get in. It's something men would be tempted to do I'm afraid, more than women. So I'm not insensitive to the need for vigilance.

Wilkepedia says this: "Chick flick is slang for a film designed to appeal to a female target audience. The term was first used in 1992. [1] Although many types of films may be directed toward the female gender, "chick flick" is typically used only in reference to films that are heavy with emotion or contain themes that are relationship-based (though not necessarily romantic). [2]"

So yeah, based on that definition, my movie might be a "chick flick."

The idea that you might one day be able to say "Nah. Not gonna pay to see that one" suggests that a simple idea first made public on this lil' o forum might one day be released in movie theatres wildly defies the odds. So, actually what you wrote is much more encouraging (or shall we say less discouraging) than had you written "No agent would ever read such a stupid script." Or "No studio executive would be interested in such a dumb idea."

So thanks for that anyway.

[madcatlady]

Why does it always have to be on a beach? There are other parts of Thailand, you know!

I did start my travels in Thailand in Krabi but settled in Chiang Mai after falling in love with my trekking guide! Sound cliched? There are many many of us living here in the Rose of the North that were not even remotely looking for romance, let alone love, who decided in the spirit of adventure to go trekking. And fell in love. Or hung out at the local Rasta Bar and fell for a cute local guy with dreads.

Most of my friends who are involved with or married to a Thai guy didn't feel particularly strongly either way about Thai or farang. They just fell for the guy that seemed right for them.

But there is something very lovely about those Thai smiles, and that soft brown skin... oops, sorry. Lost myself there for a moment!

MCL

[sbk]

SBK: Really? I thought the Ladies Forum would be like Ladies Night at the singles clubs I used to go to in my twenties. You know, where the women would get pissed until around midnight and then the bouncers would let in the men, who had assembled outside, and the ladies would fall all over them because they'd been deprived of male companionship for a couple of hours. I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that many of us actually believed that. Meanwhile the club owners were laughing all the way to the bank. (Hope you have a sense of humor too.)

On the other hand I'm sure there are men who get their backs up when they see a heading like Ladies Forum. Some people just can't stand not being invited to the party and will gate crash it and take their revenge by being boors when they get in. It's something men would be tempted to do I'm afraid, more than women. So I'm not insensitive to the need for vigilance.

Wilkepedia says this: "Chick flick is slang for a film designed to appeal to a female target audience. The term was first used in 1992. [1] Although many types of films may be directed toward the female gender, "chick flick" is typically used only in reference to films that are heavy with emotion or contain themes that are relationship-based (though not necessarily romantic). [2]"

So yeah, based on that definition, my movie might be a "chick flick."

The idea that you might one day be able to say "Nah. Not gonna pay to see that one" suggests that a simple idea first made public on this lil' o forum might one day be released in movie theatres wildly defies the odds. So, actually what you wrote is much more encouraging (or shall we say less discouraging) than had you written "No agent would ever read such a stupid script." Or "No studio executive would be interested in such a dumb idea."

So thanks for that anyway.

One word, eggmeng: Gigli If that piece of crap could be made into a movie starring major actors, than anything can make it

[Tywais]

Chick flicks aren't my thing, cliched story lines and romance are not something I would ever pay money to watch

So you never watched or enjoyed "Sleepless in Seattle"?

[sbk]

Astonishingly, no. Never saw Sleepless in Seattle. Nor Titanic for that matter.

[hellohello]

filming in bali

eat, pray, love filming in ubud, bali at the mo. she falls for farang if i remember correctly. hh

[Eggmeng]

This term "chick flick" bothers me. If we use the definition I provided above from W'pedia, I guess all these are chick flicks.

"Summertime" (previously mentioned) and directed by the great David Lean.

"Dr. Zhivago" (also directed by Lean)

"Breakfast at Tiffanys" from the novella by Truman Capote.

"Alfie" (the original with Michael Caine, I haven't seen the remake)

"Betrayal" written by Harold Pinter

"Marty" written by Paddy Chayevsky

"Romeo and Juliet" written by that dead guy with the beard.

Almost all of Woody Allen's movies once he got serious

Most of Ingmar Bergman's movies

Many movies from the French New Wave

I'm guessing the chick flick term was coined by a Generation X man, after movies had largely shifted from being about people (and therefore relationships), to being about orchestrating the kind of mayhem that male teenagers will pay to see. This happened when the movie going demographics started to change.

You might argue that some of Stephen Spielberg's hugely successful movies are about relationships, but they are all sentimental in a young person's sort of way.

[cdnvic]

Well, at least it's not the usual filmmaker who comes to Thailand to obsess over prostitution. I think a documentary on western women living in Thailand might be interesting, but not so much a clichéd romance.

[Eggmeng]

I'm glad we're all in agreement that the movie should not be a clichéd romance. Let's give this one more try.

I have an idea for a bittersweet comedy about a group of single Western women who meet while on vacation in Thailand for the first time, and look forward to some flirtations and maybe even holiday romance.

They would not be considered undesirable in their own countries, where they are used to getting plenty of attention when they go out, and so they are wholly unprepared when they find themselves neglected by the vacationing Thai girl fixated males, when they get here.

That in it's entirety, is the premise as I stated it in my OP. I guess I should have added: "It won't be a romance, clichéd or otherwise." Maybe I myself am responsible for this never quite getting on track. When I defended the idea that romantic notions still live amongst the young, it was to support the set-up for the movie, not to divulge what then transpires.

Maybe a statement of what might be called the theme, will help:

Relations between men and woman have changed dramatically in the West in recent decades. Some would say that despite some improvements, many young people now have a sense of confusion and ambivalence about the opposite sex that doesn't exist in developing countries where mens' and womens' roles (for better or worse) are more clearly defined in what might be called a traditional sense.

On this basis a group of young Westerners - women and men - find that what they have been taught and conditioned to expect is thrown into compete disarray during a holiday in Southeast Asia.

Get the picture?

[sbk]

Interesting, but I have to be honest with you here. My business caters almost solely to the under 30 crowd. I have nieces and nephews in that same age group and very few of the ones I know have confusion about their roles. The confusion I see seems to come from the older crowd that grew up in a transitional period. But the youth I have met, and I have met many, are not as confused as you seem to think.

[Eggmeng]

sbk Posted Today, 2009-09-29 02:32:52

Interesting, but I have to be honest with you here. My business caters almost solely to the under 30 crowd. I have nieces and nephews in that same age group and very few of the ones I know have confusion about their roles. The confusion I see seems to come from the older crowd that grew up in a transitional period. But the youth I have met, and I have met many, are not as confused as you seem to think.

I'm not entirely surprised to hear that. Now you are helping. Koh Phangan might be a good place to spend some time and maybe even shoot the movie, if it is to be about 20 somethings and not an older group of singles. Do you think the young people who vacation there are indicative of others who come to Thailand?

The Italian filmmaker Lina Wertmuller made a movie in 1972 called "Swept Away" (not to be confused with the Madonna remake) that stranded a man and a woman on a island in the meditteranean. She used a potentially very cliched premise to make a great film that would probably be deemed very un PC by today's movie goers.

The female lead was a rich Italian snob and the man a poor Italian sailor locked in a power struggle that shifts several times throughout the movie. One of the points made was that regardless of how men and women are socially conditioned, and no matter their status, they will fall back on their instincts in some situations, and their true nature and capacities will be revealed.

Now take a group of people in their twenties who feel more or less comfortable with what they've come to expect from the opposite sex. If you're willing to grant that a certain small subset of Southeast Asian womenhood (and I don't necessarily mean prostitutes) have learned from experience that one way to attract Western men is to appeal to what they believe is their instinctive desire to enjoy the best of what the traditional male role has to offer, an encounter with them has the potential to shake up their lives and those of the Western women they know.

Of course that's just a grandiose way of saying what all of us who live here already know.

So another way of stating the theme might be to suggest that in some, these instincts have been surpressed in the interest of social engineering. What conditions does it take for them to surface in today's youth, and what happens when they do?

[Boo]

Are you assuming though that western women would be upset by these "Asian" women shaking up the western men?

I really don't know any western women (and I know a lot of them in Thailand) that would care. Myself & my friends as women in their 30's & their partners (Thai & western) don't have any confusion over what men or women roles are as we have the intelligence to understand that not everyone wants the same thing but that the type of men who come to places like Thailand looking for a more 1950's role model wife are not men that we would be interested in anyway.

It isn't a role we want or need to play but have no issue with men who do. The only issue I & they have is when those men then start telling other women that they are somehow wrong for not wanting to play the role. Newsflash, what you like, isn't what ever man likes Revelation

Now to your idea that western women are somehow ignored or feel desperate in Thailand......

I get hit on by western men in Thailand & in the early days even casually dated some as well as local guys & at least every single one of my friends has had offers from western men too more than once & every single one of us has had at least one married to a thai women western man hit on us too.

So the premise of the op isn't an accurate understanding of western women dating in Thailand although of course it makes sense that more men in Thailand come here specifically for Thai women so the dating pool for western women is smaller. This isn't to say that western women find themselves put out by this, only that they may chose to look elsewhere (local or other foreign men) for dating, if they were even interested in dating in the first place.

From being part of thaivisa for 6 years I have found that a certain type of western man in Thailand assume way too much about western women in Thailand.

There are accusations of jealousy against Thai women that doesn't exist, a perceived hate towards western men cause they have turned their backs on western women that none of my friends feel & that western women in Thailand are desperate harridans or my favorite, feminazis, come here to cause trouble for the poor under dog western man who is only looking for the perfect Thai women & god forbid his gaze may fall on a white one.

IME what WW do have is a dislike of is a certain type of western men who make these assumptions & spout shit about western women, flinging insults & derogatory comments as these are all clearly based on their own problems & perceived issues with WW. So if you make your movie, please take these points made on board. The women I know living or visiting long term in Thailand are intelligent, interesting, individual, vibrant, adventurous with their own stories & separate personalities & more importantly can & do function quite nicely without have a guy of ANY nationality hanging around..

Good luck.

[eek]

^ VERY WELL SAID!!

[Eggmeng]

Are you assuming though that western women would be upset by these "Asian" women shaking up the western men?

I'm assuming that some might, enough perhaps for the purpose of telling the story and addressing the theme. But based on what I'm reading here, I think it might be safe to assume that they are not ones who live here. But in any case those are not, nor were they ever the people who the movie is about. It's about visitors - fictional ones.

Thank you for your comments which I WILL take on board.

[sbk]

Honestly, the idea that this is "instinctive" is only ever perpetuated by men who use the idea to promote their own agendas. I can't say that anyone under the age of about 40 would consider this kind of behavior "instinctive" . Frankly, I find the whole notion rather ludicrous in this day and age, as if people are so poorly advanced as to be incapable of using their intelligence to sort things out.

Personally, I find the overuse and abuse of the concept of the Lord of the Flies to be a rather sad inability to come up with one's own ideas. ie, Swept Away, ie The Beach etc etc.