Bangkok Post Bans Thaivisa From Using Its Content

[Plus]

Didn't someone have a go at me for bashing Thailand earlier?

[phetaroi]

I have to admit that neither the BP or ThaiVisa seems very creative about solving the issue...

Be realistic. No one knows what the best solution for all parties is, that has to be negotiated first, and there are many other websites, not just Thaivisa, that would also want to take part and Bangkok Post needs to offer a solution suitable to all.

This is an excellent example of quoting someone (in this case me) out of context. The whole looooooooong paragraph was: "I have to admit that neither the BP or ThaiVisa seems very creative about solving the issue -- so far --, and that is shortsighted for both. Perhaps, however, TV will, after taking more time, seek a more advantageous solution. After all, this has come up rather quickly and they may need some time to deal with the issue.

I think that's pretty "realistic", as you put it.

[Plus]

Phetarol, you have a point on fair quote use. BP is in no position to get back at all mis-quoters, however.

I wasn't arguing with you, I was just taking your flag and carrying it farther, though probably not to the same place you intended.

[pattygreenstar]

Hi ThaiVisa,

That's OK if BK post not allow posting their contents, i do not often read it, Do not worry,

i am your existing Ads sponsor, i will keep support you eventhough no BK Post.

Perhaps oneday you hire one reporter to do it for you. But for me i will stay with you forever.

As i see, thai visa is good quality website and i hope oneday you are the 2nd largest network as closed to Google and Yahoo.

Cheers,

[RKASA]

Could you just wait until it blows over and some normalcy restored, probably next week?

Can't you survive a day without quoting Bangkok Post?

The forum admin made it pretty clear - don't do it for now. New rules will be properly announced, why try to impose your own version of "fair use"? Just to piss off the mods?

"why try to impose your own version of "fair use"?"

I don't know when I might quote Bangkok post again I only do when the feeling arrives.  My comments are just input to the issue and frankly the issue has nothing to do with us and they way the non professional users have been using the forum.

Its not my version of fair use its a well established rule that Bangkok Post subscribes to and it is also published on line at the Bangkok post, but I can't give you the link to it in this forum right now.

I simple took the time to find out what is really going on by asking the other party.  i.e. every story has two sides, Its a little trick some reporters in Thailand might try out from time to time.  Imposing of ones own version of fair use seems to be coming from Thiavisa at least temporarily and not from me.  I don't make fair use rules, I just read them as printed.

Here is a quote from an e mail from The Bangkok Post  "Web readers can quote content from the Bangkok Post by making ref. to the headline it comes from and a link to the source with URL."   Thats not any different from whats been done as a rule everywhere for years,  Its also posted on their web site as well.

"Just to piss off the mods?"   they don't pack my lunch, I am not to worried about it.

[samran]

We now have the rather grandly named SONP that is trying to "protect" itself. Good luck, because the reality is that this endeavour will probably not increase the Bangkok Post or any other of the SONP's members traffic one iota. I have always tried to abide by the fair use definition which is fair when I quote things. This should be sufficient.

Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, is rarely the best thing to do in business. Missing the nut altogether is even more embarrassing. TV is the new kid on the block, and probably gets more hits in an hour than Bangkok Post or any other of the SONP sites in a day.

Embrace the situation and make a better website with better journalism would be a better way forward for the Post, instead of believing that by doing this, it will improve their bottom line in any way at all.

Do you realize that people don't go to Bangkok Post website precisely because they get most of BP's important content on Thaivisa? Do you realize that Thaivisa gets paid when people read content produced by Bangkok Post?

How can you call it a fair use???? It's maybe fair use for you, not for Bangkok Post, and certainly a profitable business for Thaivisa, not for Bangkok Post.

Bangkok Post has not prohibited links, afaik, they only say that you can't paste any of their content on any other website. Link is not content. The only allowed content is their RSS feed.

The problem is not with only Thaivisa, btw. There are plenty of "news" websites that don't produce any news, only copy-paste articles written and paid for by others. Thaivisa is different because it's a forum, but from Bangkok Post's point of view it's all the same - sections of the forum thrive on Bangkok Post produced content, even it's posted by different members, and a lot of it is posted by official moderators, too. For some of them it's a full time job - scouting Internet for news produced by others and publishing them on Thaivisa as new topics that attract thousands of clicks and advertising revenue.

Print media has a bigger problem with television productions, btw. They are fuming that most profitable TV newstalk shows don't invest anything in news production - they just buy 15 baht newspapers, read them outloud, exchange opinions, and collect millions of baht in advertising. Without the 15 baht newspapers they would have nothing to talk about in the first place. How's that a fair use for reporters who sometime risk their lives and careers to produce big front page stories on a shoestring, only for some talking head on TV earn several million baht dissecting and criticizing it.

Where is fair use in this?

And don't tell me that it's free advertising for newspapers - the brand name might be recognizable, but fewer people buy these newspapers because they get all the important content from TV.

spot on. Its about money, like most things in this world. Revenue sharing might be the only way?

[borisloosebrain]

Banning links to BP would make no sense at all. I too am wondering if links are also prohibited now.

This move by Bangkok Post does them no good - if anything it reduces their profile.

I'm not surprised their traffic is down - their new all blue website is crap and ugly compared to it's previous one which was great.

What is the policy regarding linking to stories in The Bangkok Post? Is that prohibited too?

I am aware my views will be in the minority, but as a publisher I can partly understand where they are coming from, although I suspect that also has a lot to do with the agreement ThaiVisa has with The Nation.

The fact is that content costs money and why should a publisher allow its content to be used and, possibly, lose them income while at the same time generating revenues for others. Yes, you can argue that quoting from a story will send visitors to the website however advertising revenues from websites in Thailand are tiny and will not even come close, in most cases, to covering production costs.

My view is that publishers around the world are going to become more protective about their content. We're seeing that already, and the trend will rise over the coming months as more look to introduce some form of charging models for their online content.

[opalhort]

The way I see it it is a legal issue between TV and the Nation and now TV is trying to find a compromise.

Why else would TV not even allow a link to the BP's main page???

BP has nothing to do with it, their TOS (as George posted them) are quite clear about this.

If the above is true and the Nation is demanding from TV not to allow links to their rival publication then I would like to suggest to TV to drop the TV to Nation link-up pronto!

opalhort

[Rumfoord]

The way I see it it is a legal issue between TV and the Nation and now TV is trying to find a compromise.

Why else would TV not even allow a link to the BP's main page???

BP has nothing to do with it, their TOS (as George posted them) are quite clear about this.

If the above is true and the Nation is demanding from TV not to allow links to their rival publication then I would like to suggest to TV to drop the TV to Nation link-up pronto!

opalhort

just pick up some random news topic from the past, posted by TVforum "George" over the years, and you will see, TVforum George" don't like to post links in the internet. not on his forum. he is a SEO specialist and knows alot about click rates and page rank and like pie charts of the traffic at thaivisa.com.

if you give a link, the forum visitor maybe go somewhere else and doesn't increase the click rate at thaivisaforum. and if a search engine bot see a link on thaivisa to an other side, this page maybe get a better position in the search engine rank.

[elcent]

talking about SEO

Forums have been downgraded by Google since more than 2 years. A site like this may have made $15,000.00(and lil more sometimes) with Google ads then. It's probably much less than half now. You could have made a PR of 7 of this site, which is now at PR5. This is quite low when you consider traffic.

[david96]

Why not treat the Bangkok Post and the Nation on an equal basis? Why not accept advertising from the Bangkok Post.

Fair enough not to post content, but links are not content.

[david96]

The way I see it it is a legal issue between TV and the Nation and now TV is trying to find a compromise.

Why else would TV not even allow a link to the BP's main page???

BP has nothing to do with it, their TOS (as George posted them) are quite clear about this.

If the above is true and the Nation is demanding from TV not to allow links to their rival publication then I would like to suggest to TV to drop the TV to Nation link-up pronto!

opalhort

just pick up some random news topic from the past, posted by TVforum "George" over the years, and you will see, TVforum George" don't like to post links in the internet. not on his forum. he is a SEO specialist and knows alot about click rates and page rank and like pie charts of the traffic at thaivisa.com.

if you give a link, the forum visitor maybe go somewhere else and doesn't increase the click rate at thaivisaforum. and if a search engine bot see a link on thaivisa to an other side, this page maybe get a better position in the search engine rank.

The purpose of a link is so you can go to the website to access the information.

One does not go to a website to buy products or services in most cases.

And who cares how many "clicks" a website gets? Whats a website "click" worth in dollars?

How to "clicks" affect the content of a website?

[vanalli]

That might be the funniest thing I've read for weeks.

Hi ThaiVisa,

That's OK if BK post not allow posting their contents, i do not often read it, Do not worry,

i am your existing Ads sponsor, i will keep support you eventhough no BK Post.

Perhaps oneday you hire one reporter to do it for you. But for me i will stay with you forever.

As i see, thai visa is good quality website and i hope oneday you are the 2nd largest network as closed to Google and Yahoo.

Cheers,

[vanalli]

If TV was rarely linking to the Post's website, then TV really can't complain about this issue. I haven't looked through the archives myself and I don't remember seeing links or not on Post stories, but if that is the case, then all this crap about community networking just goes out the window. I mean, people aren't even allowed to put links in their signatures. That's not in the spirit of community networking. I didn't have much respect for the way TV was being run before, and I'd say I have even less so now.

The way I see it it is a legal issue between TV and the Nation and now TV is trying to find a compromise.

Why else would TV not even allow a link to the BP's main page???

BP has nothing to do with it, their TOS (as George posted them) are quite clear about this.

If the above is true and the Nation is demanding from TV not to allow links to their rival publication then I would like to suggest to TV to drop the TV to Nation link-up pronto!

opalhort

just pick up some random news topic from the past, posted by TVforum "George" over the years, and you will see, TVforum George" don't like to post links in the internet. not on his forum. he is a SEO specialist and knows alot about click rates and page rank and like pie charts of the traffic at thaivisa.com.

if you give a link, the forum visitor maybe go somewhere else and doesn't increase the click rate at thaivisaforum. and if a search engine bot see a link on thaivisa to an other side, this page maybe get a better position in the search engine rank.

The purpose of a link is so you can go to the website to access the information.

One does not go to a website to buy products or services in most cases.

And who cares how many "clicks" a website gets? Whats a website "click" worth in dollars?

How to "clicks" affect the content of a website?

[cyb]

I have just finished reviewing all the posts on this thread. In doing so i have come to this conclusion, The wingers/George and mod bashers on here really do not have a clue on running a website such as this.

George and his team are quite rightly protecting themselves until such time as the situation is more clear. I am sure they are taking legal advice and will inform us all in due course.

To those of you who think they can do better, I suggest you go away and set up your own thai site. Invite us all so we can see how long you last before your ass is sued.

[oggie911]

ahy see they have bogey adds for to invest in gold did you say anything about that it was on big trouble in thailand if you did thats why

[brahmburgers]

ahy see they have bogey adds for to invest in gold did you say anything about that it was on big trouble in thailand if you did thats why

How did Humphrey Bogart get in to this discussion? Let alone, was mr. 'ahy' coerced into 'investing in gold.' And who "was on big trouble in thailand?" ...oh, maybe that was me, and I wasn't aware enough to know it.

That's why I concocted banana pneumonia from a zinnia convertible, and clocked 88 in a 55 zone while chilling zinc tarts on an esoteric barbie. Stay posted, but don't go postal.

[cyb]

ahy see they have bogey adds for to invest in gold did you say anything about that it was on big trouble in thailand if you did thats why

How did Humphrey Bogart get in to this discussion? Let alone, was mr. 'ahy' coerced into 'investing in gold.' And who "was on big trouble in thailand?" ...oh, maybe that was me, and I wasn't aware enough to know it.

That's why I concocted banana pneumonia from a zinnia convertible, and clocked 88 in a 55 zone while chilling zinc tarts on an esoteric barbie. Stay posted, but don't go postal.

Have i missed something here? Or somehow warped into another thread unknowingly?

Now where is scotty when you need him. Beam me up someone please.

[Crushdepth]

And who cares how many "clicks" a website gets? Whats a website "click" worth in dollars?

How to "clicks" affect the content of a website?

Advertisers care how many people visit, and it has a large influence on how much they are willing to pay to advertise on a site. If ads are your primary source of revenue, clicks matter.

[george]

Update:

From BahtSold.com

SONP announced- (spelling the end of BahtSold.com newsletter?)

-13 major Thai news sources (English and Thai language) have joined together to form the "Society for Online News Providers" (SONP).

The formation of the SONP is aimed primarily at protecting the proprietary material of news websites. Post Publishing states, the SONP members will allow other websites to copy a headline plus 100-150 characters from a news item, ONLY if it is in a RSS feed.

Here's BahtSold.com's take:

http://www.bahtsold.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4339

[bkkjames]

Well I think we should protest!!! George, you got any of those TV t-shirts left mate?

[Ponbkk]

I'd ask everyone not to miss the point. If I post BP content on Thai Visa then I am the one posting the content. Thaivisa has no business removing that content and the Bangkok Post has no business going after anyone but me.

[opalhort]

I'd ask everyone not to miss the point. If I post BP content on Thai Visa then I am the one posting the content. Thaivisa has no business removing that content and the Bangkok Post has no business going after anyone but me.

You are quite wrong about this point.

According to Thai law the web host (in this case TV) will be held responsible first of all for postings on their forum, but you would of course also face the consequence of your posting.

I fully understand why TV admin is currently very nervous about this issue.

What I do not understand is why the BP has been singled out and links to other sources (Nation) are no problem.

opalhort

[Camelot]

How can BP go after you? You are using a pseudonym to cloak your identity and location. Just as I am.

[meelousee]

Of course, it is not that you have the Nation it is that Thaivisa has more visitors and online subscribers than they do. Bangkok post has...

No nuff said

[opalhort]

How can BP go after you? You are using a pseudonym to cloak your identity and location. Just as I am.

Are you really so naive to think that your post can't be traced back to you?

Of course this will take time but in the meantime TV may be banned or even closed down if your post violated the Thai law.

opalhort

[meelousee]

I'd ask everyone not to miss the point. If I post BP content on Thai Visa then I am the one posting the content. Thaivisa has no business removing that content and the Bangkok Post has no business going after anyone but me.

You are quite wrong about this point.

According to Thai law the web host (in this case TV) will be held responsible first of all for postings on their forum, but you would of course also face the consequence of your posting.

I fully understand why TV admin is currently very nervous about this issue.

What I do not understand is why the BP has been singled out and links to other sources (Nation) are no problem.

opalhort

when you have to ask the question "why the BP has been singled out and links to other sources" 99.9% of the time it is MONEY

[Loptr]

Copyright infringement is a serious crime... TV should be thankful that the BP has not pressed charges...

[Thai at Heart]

I'd ask everyone not to miss the point. If I post BP content on Thai Visa then I am the one posting the content. Thaivisa has no business removing that content and the Bangkok Post has no business going after anyone but me.

You are quite wrong about this point.

According to Thai law the web host (in this case TV) will be held responsible first of all for postings on their forum, but you would of course also face the consequence of your posting.

I fully understand why TV admin is currently very nervous about this issue.

What I do not understand is why the BP has been singled out and links to other sources (Nation) are no problem.

opalhort

when you have to ask the question "why the BP has been singled out and links to other sources" 99.9% of the time it is MONEY

When you look at who the BP has advertising on it's website, there are some pretty heavy hitters in there. I would believe it has little to do with TV and more to do with the fact that probably nobody goes through and actually clicks any of the adverts on the BP. Maybe some important advertisers are thinking if they are getting value for money out of the BP and looking to move.

But then, the banner ad at the top is often in Thai, and using Chrome it never actually registers a click anyway so the link doesn't work.

[Richard W]

Bangkok post has banned linking or quoting from them that is understood.

No, it's just banned quoting. TV has banned linking to the BP as a precautionary measure. One very real problem is that it would be hard work for moderators to reliably distinguish paraphrasing from quoting, while mere headlines are often misleading. TV has not been successful in enforcing the rule that only a small part of articles be quoted. In many cases only the final paragraph has been omitted from the quote.

Actually, the TV ban is defensible on another basis - the links soon die. For example, the article quoted at DTAC Starts Limited 3G Trial in Bangkok is only as quoted copies - the original is nowhere to be found, at least, nowhere to be found via Google. It would be good if TV could do a deal whereby TV provided an archive service, but getting links to switch over when the article vanished from the BP website could be tricky (or easy), depending on TV forum organisation.