Bangkok Post Bans Thaivisa From Using Its Content

[IanForbes]

It has nothing to do with actual legality. If thaivisa does not want anything from Bangkok Post reported here then they have the right to do so. It's their site and they already have a bunch of subjects that are verboten.

Since the beginning of the internet there have been conflicts with news and magazine publishing. Magazines and newspapers were derelict in their duty in adjusting to changing times. They missed the boat in holding old customers and attracting new ones. Instead of leading the way, they let others with new ideas take over and progress ahead. I've had similar discussions many times with my magazine publishers and they just didn't seem to get it. It is a shame really and one that could have been avoided by progressive thinking.

Newspapers and magazines could have been used as loss leaders with a much broader depth of reporting on the internet. For example, a magazine article is usually about 1500 words or less, and can only touch on a few issues, and those without any real depth of information. Newspaper stories are even smaller, and television less still. at least with television you usually get a few video clips. For the price of a magazine subscription a subscriber should be able go to the magazine's internet site and read a far more in depth story complete with photos and video. That is now picked up on private forums and You-tube video clips... and they are usually poorly done.

Think how great it could have been if we could have had an in-depth reporting of the Tsunami of 2004 with personal interviews and video of the affected areas. Same goes with the conflict last winter at the Suvarnaboomcrash airport. It would open a whole new world of reporting.

[KayT]

And so the readership of BP will decline even further.

When you are hurting your biggest marketplace by your restrictions it stands to reason that you will suffer the consequences.

Thailand in general is experiencing this right now as backlash for some of the major incidents that have made international headlines in the last 2-3 years.

I guess BP wanted to experience that sort of thing for itself.

Good work and keep it all up. TIT and nothing surprises me here anymore.

[elcent]

I really wonder if this is what they were after? They more than likely did not want Thaivisa or any website for that matter posting the entire or most of an article... I am sure it would not be an issue posting the headlines, then linking to the article like so many websites do (dig, slashdot, google,)...

I for one don't blame them, its not fair that Thaivisa posts the entire or most of the article, giving most forum visitors no need to go to BKKPOST's website. So Thaivisa gets all the ad impressions off of the backs of BKK POST's work.

Maybe you should change your policy to only allow headlines.... Then it would be fair to both parties...

Yes indeed, Thaivisa gets the visitors and ad clicks due to content that took 3 seconds to copy / paste. I always wondered why they "got away" with it.

This idea that a website can ban other sites from linking to their pages goes against the whole point of having the internet- it is so obviously silly that I am surprised Thaivisa even considers abiding by it.

Then again TIT.

It's not about linking, it's about re-posting their whole article content, thus "stealing" their visitors, as people no longer need to bother following the link (as already stated above by MyphuketLife).

BKK Post and the others need to pay for their content, so it's pretty normal that they try to protect it in order to collect the hits themselves. You wouldn't like it either if I ate your supper each time you finished preparing it.

not quite right. It's all about quality, freedom of expression ...

For example when someone posts a column which is good(although very very rare) people would search it and do a kind of research and thus bringing more traffic to their site.

As it is for now, there will be fewer traffic coming to BP.

follow the stats and you will see ...

[clausewitz]

It's not about linking, it's about re-posting their whole article content, thus "stealing" their visitors, as people no longer need to bother following the link (as already stated above by MyphuketLife).

BKK Post and the others need to pay for their content, so it's pretty normal that they try to protect it in order to collect the hits themselves. You wouldn't like it either if I ate your supper each time you finished preparing it.

Sio what is different from before? Thiavisa policy has alwasy been that we never could never quote whole articles from Bangkok post, only a few sentences and a link.

[dude007]

Bangkok Post bans Thaivisa from using its content

BANGKOK (thaivisa.com): -- The Publisher of Bangkok Post, Post Publishing PCL, has informed Thaivisa.com that they have joined the "Society for Online News Providers, (SONP)", and their policy is apparently that RSS feeds are the only way for other web sites to republish news articles.

Posting the whole article or too much of an article should be banned, but a quote? This makes no sense and goes against what is a given on the Internet.

I RATHER SEE THE OPPOSITE! A quote can be drawn from its context and sound very different than in the article itself. See how they often manipulate interviews by only quoting what they want ot hear... There is something wrong here with the BKK post. Some powers are not happy with Thaivisa and that's aonly a beginnig I am afraid.

[alstaxi]

It's probably so BKK Post can push the new full-page add (that appears after a few seconds, takes a fair bit of time to load with no cancel option) to as many people as possible...

(... not realising that the user can still browse to another website instead...)

Not at all, when you subscribe to an RSS feed, you automatically download only the articles from the feed you subscribe to, it works very well. BKK Post has not banned anyone from their articles, they have simply changed the way they distibute their stories, unless there is tmore to she story we have not been told.

[alstaxi]

To me, it is clear (and fair) that the Bangkok Post is demanding that TV stop posting entire articles.

What is not clear to me is who is demanding that TV members stop merely quoting from the Bangkok Post articles.

Is it TV? Or is it the Bangkok Post?

Read the article, the BP is not stopping TV from using stories, provided they are posted vis RSS, TV can publish the entire paper.So get RSS technology, and use it, every body else is.

I did read the article and it does not sound right (and goes against the logics of fair use AND practicalities).

The Bangkok Post are worried about a loss of revenue due to less people coming to their site. So banning TV (a site with a huge membership) from quoting, with a link to the article on the Bangkok Post, makes no sense at all.

So I can only think that the Bangkok post sent out their request without taking care with their wording. Or, that TV is saying 'sod them' and the print they rode in on.

If you read the article you will know that BP has not banned TV from anything, they simpl ywant TV and others to republish aticles via RSS, an internet technology that allows you to subscibe to a news feed and automatically download what ever you want from that site, no ban on any thing.

[desi]

Bangkok Post bans Thaivisa from using its content

BANGKOK (thaivisa.com): -- The Publisher of Bangkok Post, Post Publishing PCL, has informed Thaivisa.com that they have joined the "Society for Online News Providers, (SONP)", and their policy is apparently that RSS feeds are the only way for other web sites to republish news articles.

Posting the whole article or too much of an article should be banned, but a quote? This makes no sense and goes against what is a given on the Internet.

I RATHER SEE THE OPPOSITE! A quote can be drawn from its context and sound very different than in the article itself. See how they often manipulate interviews by only quoting what they want ot hear... There is something wrong here with the BKK post. Some powers are not happy with Thaivisa and that's aonly a beginnig I am afraid.

Why? All you have to do is read the original yourself to see if you agree with either point of view.

Who believes everything they read online anyway? If I am interested, after I read an article I google for more to make up my own mind.

The facts are that the Bangkok Post is a business. The Bangkok Post pays for writers for articles in order to turn around and sell stories. For their site, they do that by selling ads. If TV is ripping off entire articles and taking the Bangkok Post out of the equation (especially if TV continuously comes top on google for those very same articles), then the Bangkok Post has the right to stop TV from doing so. But I do not believe that the Bangkok Post has a legal right to stop TV from posting quotes.

[desi]

If you read the article you will know that BP has not banned TV from anything, they simpl ywant TV and others to republish aticles via RSS, an internet technology that allows you to subscibe to a news feed and automatically download what ever you want from that site, no ban on any thing.

You do not understand my query... I am not asking about RSS (and yes, I know exactly what RSS is as I use it all the time).

I am asking about the new TV rules against quoting the Bangkok Post.

For legal reasons, and to protect the website and its members, Thaivisa.com must comply with this new policy and urge all members to avoid all Bangkok Post content, advising its members to find alternative content instead.

Members quoting or posting Bangkok Post content will be warned by our moderating team, and the post will be deleted without warning.

I would highlight 'quoting' in my quote but I believe there is a TV rule against it (difficult to keep up with them all).

[bbw]

you can post their headlines and link to their site for the full story. that's much fairer anyway since why shouldn't you direct traffic to them if posters are taking their stories? then people can comment on them, too, within the forum.

having had my own stories reposted here without permission (or attribution, or a link to my company's website) i think thaivisa could have done something earlier about this instead of making it into the typical false conflict.

[AussieFarang]

Its a government vetted rag anyway. No such thing as a free press in Thailand. Theres always an angle and a price to be paid for free speach. Anyone who says otherwise is suffering from selfdillusion. Keep on dancing Thailand the edge of the cliff is still miles away. I HOPE.

[jasreeve17]

Odd that one can find no mention of the "Society for Online News Providers" anywhere online, other than this thread.

There was an article in The Nation on the 25th of September mentioning the formation of the Online News Producers Club. Maybe the same "Society"?

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/09/25...ss_30113046.php

"A joint declaration forming the club was signed by 13 major online news-content providers: ASTV Manager, Thai Rath Online, Daily News Online, Matichon, Post Publishing, the Nation Multimedia Group, Siam Sport, INN Online, Thansettakij Online, Dara Daily Online, Nawnha Online, Siam Rath Online and Thai Post Online."

Looking at the quote above would suggest that we cannot quote from any of these sources, yet we've only been 'banned' by one of the above; who happen to be in competition with our new 'owner' / sponsor / partner /...

Edited October 2, 2009 by jasreeve17

[Arkady]

I think that, rather than just taking the easy way out by enforcing a total ban on utilising any Bangkok Post content, Thai Visa needs to seek a mutually acceptable solution or else it will likely also suffer a decline in web traffic in the way it gleefully points out has happened to the Post. Many complain about the Post here and it certainly leaves a lot to be desired but it is still the better of the only two national newspapers published in English. Much as I like The Nation for its historical opposition to totalitarianism and its occasional flashes of brilliance it has suffered a lot due to poor business management, lack of focus and ventures into other businesses such as property development that management couldn't understand. It hasn't turned a profit in five years and it cannot even sustain a proper daily business section which is the bread and butter of an English daily in Asia, even if business coverage may be of little interest to most TV readers. The demise of the business section was disguised as a re-formatting into two sections with no clear focus to either of them.

Being unable to quote or reference Post sources in any way at all will palpably weaken TV's discussion threads on news items which, like this one, seem to draw most of its traffic. It must be possible to show a link, publish a summary or quote excerpts from Post articles in a way that would be satisfactory them. Most of the news threads are anyway based on comments made by public officials and others which are clearly not copyright and often turn up in the Post or Nation as misquotes, quotes out of context and/or mistranslations. When you see the Thai reporters clustered together after a press conference, particularly those in English, trying to agree on what was said and what it meant, you understand why the same garbelled nonsense is often reported in several papers and can have no claim to any sort of copyright. As an aside, perhaps this has something to do with the low pay of journalists and the antiquated criminal lible laws that dissuade competent graduates from joining the profession.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Arkady

[alstaxi]

This is an interesting and multi-faceted subject. I read the 1st page of this thread, but didn't get to the subsequent 2 pages. Currently over 2,000 readers!

There are various ways for news and pap to get to pages of newspapers. Bkk Post itself, takes news from other sources, some of it paid for, some not. Bkk Post also has reporters, who pick up stories, some scooped (first public mention), but most likely most are picked up from police and/or gov't announcements, etc.

There's also syndication, such as political cartoons from elsewhere, and Op-Ed columns (usually opinion pieces), and entertainment.

Although I'm new to the concept of "RSS Feed" (though did read about it recently on Wikipedia), I'd venture there are a variety of ways such feeds can be garnered, some by subscription, etc, and some for free. A 'press release' also fits with RSS protocol, though there are other ways a press release can get to print and/or get viewed online.

Perhaps Bkk Post's mention (of not using its content) can be a catalyst for T.Visa to expand its scope. At the least, subscribe to RSS feeds that are free. This may also encourage independents to garner news items and make them available, though hardly anyone wants to work for free, and we (the reading public) shouldn't expect to get everything for free.

For that reason, perhaps T.Visa could open a section on its web site which includes a modest fee, let's say Bt.150/month per customer (that's 5 baht per day!). The section would be mostly news items, most of which come via paid-for services such as RSS feeds, and perhaps one or two 'roving reporters.' To make it more interesting, the subscription site could have political cartoons & interesting columns garnered thru subscription syndicates such as Copley News Service.

I subscribe to many websites, including the BP, via an RSS feed, it is, and always has been free, no website charges for an RSS feed.

It is a very handy way to gather a lot of information automatically, free, and orderly every morning. I cant understand what all the fuss and moaning on this site is about, there is no ban. Go to the BP website and subscribe to their RSS feed and try it out.

[elcent]

maybe BP should convert all to PDF or images, disable right click, lol, or they should have a look at NYT subscriptions. NYT has also free content and nobody bothers when shown elsewhere.

There's a problem with BP and that is quality and the fact of having missed the train a long time ago. Playing the blame game now will make things worse for them.

Goodness, a good forum script costs a couple of hundred bucks only and one can customize it to whatsoever looks. You can even get very good scripts from open source for free.

In fact I was shocked about an article that got so distorted by BP a few days ago that I had to search for the actual message elsewhere on foreign media.

[Jimjim]

I cannot load Bangkok Post anymore these days on firefox or chrome. It just won't load. I leave it loading for 10 minutes and come back, and all I see is the header. Their traffic may be down as they have problems with their web servers orsomething. I do not have this problem with any other site and have a fast connection, though in the U.S. right now.

[sunsamourai]

Has anybody mentionned yet that it's just another nail in their coffin ?

[shavedPotter]

You can change the content slightly by selecting a few alternate words with the same meaning. I have met one person who does that and it is very legal because it becomes his own creation. That is the only work around I know of.

[Bearnagh]

I suspect that one reason that news providers might prefer their content to reach 'indirect readers' using RSS is that they can maintain full editorial control of both quotes and articles. Leaving it open for 'cut & pasters' opens the door for out-of-context quotation (and of course, further selective editing occasionally). I do however think that in this day & age, Bangkok Post has shot itself in both feet. I for one, would have regularly hopped across to BKK Post read a full article, having been teased in by a user's quote on Thaivisa. I would imagine I'm not the only one who's being doing so. Sorry Bangkok Post... big retrograde step!!

[moskito]

in my opinion PHUKET GAZETTE is not a serious competitor to Bangkok Post. Storys like Jellyball UFOs, Bt300mn historical park slated for Phuket or some other Phuket news are not really great news.

Anyway, I think we well miss the Post but can survive without it. Farangs intrested in news, which foreigners concern, check THAIVISA anyway for best informations in Asia and THAILAND.

so dont be sad, we got a good message board here, with or without bkk post

[Pattaya Diver]

Good for the Post, I say. Message boards and blogs are the biggest copyright infringers around. Better to have the Post have people come to its own site, click their ads rather and earn money back on the investment it takes to cover and publsih the news rather than have some message board rip off the copy and send out alerts getting people to come to THEIR board and read the same news.

Thai Visa's formal agreements with The Nation, etc. to legally republish the news is commendable, but being an ex-newspaper vet, I say good on them. Let the post keep the money.

[alstaxi]

If you read the article you will know that BP has not banned TV from anything, they simpl ywant TV and others to republish aticles via RSS, an internet technology that allows you to subscibe to a news feed and automatically download what ever you want from that site, no ban on any thing.

You do not understand my query... I am not asking about RSS (and yes, I know exactly what RSS is as I use it all the time).

I am asking about the new TV rules against quoting the Bangkok Post.

For legal reasons, and to protect the website and its members, Thaivisa.com must comply with this new policy and urge all members to avoid all Bangkok Post content, advising its members to find alternative content instead.

Members quoting or posting Bangkok Post content will be warned by our moderating team, and the post will be deleted without warning.

I would highlight 'quoting' in my quote but I believe there is a TV rule against it (difficult to keep up with them all).

Sorry for that, you are correct, however I have no idea why TV feels the need to ban us from quoting the BP when that is not the BP's intention, the story from BP says you must use the rss feed to publish atrticles, it is not banning TV from publishing anything.

TV has thrown gas on a grease fire on this one.

[RickBradford]

The whole thing is down to this weird media group -- is it the Society for Online News Distributors and Headline Inventors (SONDHI)

[elcent]

You can change the content slightly by selecting a few alternate words with the same meaning. I have met one person who does that and it is very legal because it becomes his own creation. That is the only work around I know of.

there is free software for article re-writing, a one click solution, - why not use it and sell some to BP as uniquely written content., hahaha ...

[Publicus]

The original post seems quite biased and surely does not reflect well on the part of TV in my opinion.

There are two parties each with opposing but similar interests: advertising revenue (or rather have it: a way to pay for the personnel).

BKK Post has journalists that are paid for producing the articles. Sites (such as TV) copy the full content and republish it without any costs. Results: TV gains from added audience and added revenue. BKK Post loses from less audience and less revenue. If BKK Post articles are no longer republished, surely part of the pageviews of TV will go down as the audience will go to the original source to read the article. I surely can understand the BKK Post as I also have people working for me and they cost money as well.

Try to find a compromise, after all, the free copyright breach of the last years is what gave sites like TV the audience it has today. There is no shame in admitting that.

Good luck,

Good luck indeed. Compromise yes.

Newspapers in the Age of IT and cyberspace have become desperate to recover lost income--profits--because of the internet and forums such as TV. (Newspapers globally are not in decline because of illiteracy as literacy rates are at global highs, or because of income demographics which have only increased globally.)

The main source of newspaper (and magazine) income is advertising. Subscriber receipts are only a small fraction of income in print journalism. These two realities have always been so. Advertising rates are determined by several factors such as number of paid subscribers, estimated number of readers and the like. A newspaper needs many of each. The same is true of TV and other internet sites. There's only one word in this business whether its print on paper or in cyberspace: advertising, advertising, advertising.

No one has found a different or better way to do it. So we're seeing newspapers thrashing about trying to find ways to stay alive. One result in Thailand is the SONP while another is the recent and I suspect innovative agreement between the publishers of NationMultiMediaGroup Inc and ThaiVisa.

The above is information we have.

Information we don't have includes why TV and the BKP--and/or other Thai media of the new SONP--don't have any agreement similar to or the same as the extant agreement between TV and the Nation. While I suspect SONP are being small minded, protectionist and reacting as a herd, it's also clear that TV could be more forthcoming as well.

The Nation as should be expected has innovated by its apparent compromise with TV. The compromise appears suitable to both the Nation and TV. So why haven't TV and the BKP in particular, but the SONP as a group, reached same or similar agreement? Both TV, the BKP and the SONP as a whole have a gap and a gulf between them that seems to need some considerable explaining beyond the OP.

[simon43]

Can we not just replace news stories from Bangkok Post with news stories from NotTheNation.com? I'm sure no-one will notice the difference...

Simon

[saneroad]

Very skeptical of this story. TV members were told the same thing about a Phuket website that 'banned' its content from the TV forum.

[desi]

If you read the article you will know that BP has not banned TV from anything, they simpl ywant TV and others to republish aticles via RSS, an internet technology that allows you to subscibe to a news feed and automatically download what ever you want from that site, no ban on any thing.

You do not understand my query... I am not asking about RSS (and yes, I know exactly what RSS is as I use it all the time).

I am asking about the new TV rules against quoting the Bangkok Post.

For legal reasons, and to protect the website and its members, Thaivisa.com must comply with this new policy and urge all members to avoid all Bangkok Post content, advising its members to find alternative content instead.

Members quoting or posting Bangkok Post content will be warned by our moderating team, and the post will be deleted without warning.

I would highlight 'quoting' in my quote but I believe there is a TV rule against it (difficult to keep up with them all).

Sorry for that, you are correct, however I have no idea why TV feels the need to ban us from quoting the BP when that is not the BP's intention, the story from BP says you must use the rss feed to publish atrticles, it is not banning TV from publishing anything.

TV has thrown gas on a grease fire on this one.

That's what I was getting at because the Nation article alludes to quotes...

"We don't want to limit the news accessibility of people, but we want the owners of commercial websites to be aware of the fact that we have to invest in news production, so they should respect the copyrighted content and not pirate it," Adisak said.

"We always welcome them to make a link back to the original source of news. That would be a better way out for both the websites and the news producers."

Respecting copyright (to me) means quotes are allowed, ripping (pirating) whole articles is not.

If a blog or website ripped off an entire article (or graphics, or design) and did not take it down once requested, the owner of the content can go to their hosting company (if in a western country) and have the entire site taken down.

And if my memory serves me, the Bangkok Post has made this request previously of TV (?) ... for TV to stop posting whole articles.

[webfact]

I cannot load Bangkok Post anymore these days on firefox or chrome. It just won't load. I leave it loading for 10 minutes and come back, and all I see is the header. Their traffic may be down as they have problems with their web servers orsomething. I do not have this problem with any other site and have a fast connection, though in the U.S. right now.

strange, because their server is located in Denver (I guess)

[swifty5x5]

Don't newspapers usually believe in freedom of speech? I guess just not their speech.