Cancer Treatment Experience In Chiang Mai

[TRAZ57]

Last spring I wrote a blog concerning the steps to be taken after someone has died at home. I appreciate all of the kind sentiments expressed in responses. My friend was not happy with the medical treatment that she had received and I promised that I would write about her experiences in the hopes that it might help others. Already one person has responded with information regarding pain medication that I wish we had known and I hope that this blog will spark more such information. This letter is long so I have put my suggestions in bold print for a quicker read. Please respond with your own experiences and advice for others.

1. Getting a diagnosis: It took my friend more than 6 months to be diagnosed. She went to McCormick, Chiang Mai Ram, Suan Dok, and the clinic on Loi Kroh. While she herself suspected lung cancer she was quick to accept the reading of an x-ray that stated "all clear". She was given numerous diagnoses and she purchased and took lots of medications and followed special regimens. She spent a week in Ram and was discharged with a diagnosis of depression, cervical spondylosis and kidney disfunction. Suggestions: Do the research on your symptoms. If you are suspicious don't take "it's clear" without asking for another opinion or x-ray. It is so tempting to accept a "no cancer" statement. Be tough! Also, take notes! It is next to impossible to remember what everyone said at a later date. If possible have a friend or family member do this for you so that you can concentrate on being freaked out... I mean, in control.

2. Diagnosis: When my friend returned to Ram a few months later with her face and neck hugely swollen, she was given a ct scan. The supervising doctor then took me aside and told me that my friend had a 10cm tumor on her bronchial tubes. It was up to me to tell her the news. The oncologist came for a visit and urged her to get a biopsy done ASAP. This was done and though it was a very painful procedure the skillful surgeon was able to remove a portion of the tumor that was causing much of the pain. The next morning the oncologist returned with the diagnosis of small cell lung cancer and urged immediate treatment. We asked for information on side effects, costs, time-tables, remission rates, etc. The information we were given was vague and at times misleading. My friend felt rushed but agreed to begin treatment the next day. Suggestions: don't wait so long to demand attention. My friend had suffered greatly thinking that the doctors she was seeing were doing the right thing. If you want to be an active part of your treatment plans tell the doctors from the first that you want them to tell you the diagnosis and not to filter it through family and friends. Really try to get the oncologist to play it straight with you. Ask for the names of medications and the side effects, the time tables, the costs. It would be best if the doctor had some printed material to give you but this was not our experience. Try to get some realistic idea of the remission rates and the possible cure rates. Once again, write it down! Don't be rushed, if you have a way to get more information or advice, take the time to get it.

3. Chemo: Treatment at Ram began the next day. From the first it became clear that each treatment would take longer than we were told. Also, once the I.V. began flowing I was left alone with my friend. When I asked what to do the nurses gave me a plastic bag and said to call if there were any problems. Everyone tolerates chemo differently so be prepared. My friend was greatly bothered by some of the routine procedures such as the insistence that the I.V. must be put in the back of the hands and repeated interruptions during the night. Checking out took hours and required a careful eye on the final bill. Suggestions: Be assertive (not aggressive, don't yell!!), allow double the stated time for each procedure, try to get the nurses to not come in during the middle of the nights. Double check the medication list that you will pay for at check-out ( also, many of the medications can be obtained at pharmacies for much less), check to see if you qualify for the senior citizen discount and then get it, make all necessary appointments for home check-ups etc, get the necessary phone numbers and email addresses. (email can be a hassle through Ram as you email a central clearinghouse and then the message goes to the doctor and the doctor's answer goes back to the clearinghouse and then to you. Also, we were not given a phone number for the doctor in case of emergencies or questions). In other countries chemo can be given on an outpatient basis in certain cases. Ram did not offer this but perhaps with pressure it could be set up in the future. Once you are home get back on the internet to help prepare you for the side-effects of the chemo, as there will be some, if not many.

4. Home health care: A nurse, who brings along a few others, will be assigned to visit the home during the 4-5 weeks between treatments. Their main function is to take blood to document the fall and hopeful rise of red and white blood cell counts. They also take temperatures, check for swollen ankles, ask a few questions and little else. The doctor should let you know your status either by phone or email. Suggestions: Make sure that the home care personnel wash their hands when entering your home. After chemo you are very vulnerable to disease and some of the home care people don’t appear to understand that they are the possible germ carriers, not the patient. Set up meal delivery if necessary as there will be days when you will not be able to go out. Make sure that there is a clear line of communication between you and the doctor and the home care nurses.

5. Radiation treatment: My friend travelled to Suan Dok and then walked down into the basement for her radiation treatment. While it was crowded she seemed to be given preference and usually was seen shortly after her appointment time. She was able to speak with the radiologist several times. Her dignity and comfort were not always a priority though and she occasionally was left, chest bared, on the table while the machine was retooled. At one point her chemo treatments and radiation treatments overlapped and there were problems getting finished with chemo in time to make her radiation appointment. There appeared to be some disagreement between her oncologist and radiologist over medications the one time that they spoke on the phone but the radiologist appeared to defer to the oncologist. Suggestions: Hopefully your oncologist and radiologist will work together. Our experience was that as the radiation must be done at Suan Dok (the only place in town I think) and the oncologist was at Chiang Mai Ram, there was little to no communication between them. It may be better to do all of your treatment through Suan Dok in hopes that the two doctors will communicate on a regular basis. Also, be aware of which doctor appears to be “in charge” as the other will likely defer to them. As radiation is on an outpatient basis, set up transportation and preferably some company. You might go in feeling OK but come out quite whoozy and need a supporting arm.

6. Other tests and treatment. My friend was put through multiple tests during all of this. Were they all necessary? I don't know. She was also strongly urged to get prophylactic brain radiation once she was declared in remission, which she did. During this time of supposed remission she began feeling quite ill again. She hoped that she just could not tolerate the radiation but thought that it was probably her cancer. In less than 3 months she was back at Chiang Mai Ram. She had a visible tumor in her neck and a ct scan of her chest showed several more. She refused more treatment and she died, at home, not long after. Suggestions: Whether you are the patient or helping someone else go through this, it is a stressful business. Try to get as much information as possible, document everything, be assertive, do not let dignity get lost in the quest for a cure, don't shut out others, and find the little joys in each day. Best wishes.

[SM7WGP]

If you get diagnosis Cancer witch in most cases is not curable, Why even think of starting a cemo session and think you going to live, what you mostly get is 6 months to a year .

I personal y dont believe its worth the agony you have to go true. So I think that the best way is to accept the verdict and live a happy life the rest of the time.

[elektrified]

Excellent post TRAZ57.

What a ridiculous and insensitive post SM7WGP. Everyone is entitled to have the will to live. A friend of mine in America was told 7 years ago that she had lung cancer, metastasized to her brain and would not live 6 months. She had chemo and radiation therapies and a kidney removed, and she is alive and well today. Cancer victims do not give up easily like you suggest.

[piercefilmlid]

Excellent post TRAZ57.

What a ridiculous and insensitive post SM7WGP. Everyone is entitled to have the will to live. A friend of mine in America was told 7 years ago that she had lung cancer, metastasized to her brain and would not live 6 months. She had chemo and radiation therapies and a kidney removed, and she is alive and well today. Cancer victims do not give up easily like you suggest.

Agree

Although I lost my mum to cancer last year, it is NOT an automatic death sentence and many people respond well to treatment (which is getting better all the time) and go on to live long and happy lives. Early diagnosis is the key to succesful treatment.

Rgds

[mrmillersr]

One of the greatest world scams and tragedies is the war on cancer. There are more people making their livelihoods off this scam than there are people being treated for it. Radiation, chemo, surgery - that is all they have been able to come up with in 40 plus years. This could have been irradicated just like polio years ago but the corrupt establishment figured out it was a cash cow and there was a lot of money to be made out of it. Welcome to the world of capitalism.

[piercefilmlid]

One of the greatest world scams and tragedies is the war on cancer. There are more people making their livelihoods off this scam than there are people being treated for it. Radiation, chemo, surgery - that is all they have been able to come up with in 40 plus years. This could have been irradicated just like polio years ago but the corrupt establishment figured out it was a cash cow and there was a lot of money to be made out of it. Welcome to the world of capitalism.

A great conspiracy theory.

Whilst I agree that the treatment of cancer fosters a huge industry, do you not think that there is just as much money to be made by the drugs companies in finding a cure to eradicate this awful disease?

There is already a cure for all cancers, and it is being kept from us?

I would be interested to hear the evidence that supports your assertion that the treatment of cancer is a "scam".

Rgds

Edited October 3, 2009 by piercefilmlid

[Loaded]

Very informative and useful OP - thank you

I tend to agree that privately owned pharmaceutical companies would rather develop expensive treatments than one-off cures. That's far better business and far more profitable. We could put men on the moon 40 years ago but can't find a cure or vaccination for HIV after 20 years and billions of dollars of research!

For those who think that a private medical company wouldn't think this way and wouldn't regard patients as customers, I have one thing to say: Chiang Mai Ram Hospital. These kind of medical business ethics aren't unique to Thailand or privately-owned hospitals.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Loaded

[amexpat]

Thanks OP, for your thoroughness and thoughtfulness.

What a Jeckyll and Hyde thread this has become.

Do the conspirators stand by and withhold the secret cure while their family members suffer? Are they immune, themselves?

Putting a man on the moon is an oft used example of what can be done. But that was a technological feat that scientists knew could be accomplished whenever the resources were dedicated. HIV, cancer, herpes, etc, don't just hang there in a vacuum like the moon.

Scientific research is quite different from applied technology, isn't it?

Progress is being made.

[PeaceBlondie]

I have always only used Chiang Mai Ram as an expensive last alternative to Sripat. I wonder if CMU Medical School professsors/oncologists practice at Sripat/Maharaj (almost surely). A Thai ajarn I worked with was treated for breast cancer; I saw her getting a checkup later at Maharaj.

[greedisgood]

Thanks to the OP for an informative post. We need more of those here and less personal opinions of the world as you see it

[Trickcyclist]

Leonard Shapiro wrote (of Soviet Russia) that "the true object of propaganda is neither to convince nor even to persuade, but to produce a uniform pattern of public utterance in which the first trace of unorthodox thought reveals itself as a jarring dissonance" thereby producing a climate where in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is an idiot.

This is the dichotomy today between orthodox and alternative cancer treatments aided and abetted by fear on the part of the unfortunate sufferer, withdrawal and/or delegation to orthodox practitioners by relations and friends who refuse even to discuss the situation and ignorance on the part of us all.

My personal experience (2 sisters' cancers) is that the medical establishment refer one almost immediately to an hospice.

Ultimately, we are responsible for our own health and well being, therefore, why not look at alternatives and openly discuss and investigate them. There is ample evidence that some do work as there is also ample evidence that orthodox treatments can be a nightmare.

As the late and life time chronically ill President Kennedy (Addison's disease) was reported to have said: " I'd take horse piss, if it worked."

Thanks OP, for your thoroughness and thoughtfulness.

What a Jeckyll and Hyde thread this has become.

Do the conspirators stand by and withhold the secret cure while their family members suffer? Are they immune, themselves?

Putting a man on the moon is an oft used example of what can be done. But that was a technological feat that scientists knew could be accomplished whenever the resources were dedicated. HIV, cancer, herpes, etc, don't just hang there in a vacuum like the moon.

Scientific research is quite different from applied technology, isn't it?

Progress is being made.

[amexpat]

As the late and life time chronically ill President Kennedy (Addison's disease) was reported to have said: " I'd take horse piss, if it worked."

But it doesn't, so he didn't. Other organic remedies are not so blatantly bogus.

I guess the desperate families of the gravely ill must be allowed to blow their life savings on what they hope will be a miracle. But it is incumbent upon the medical profession to advise them of the odds.

Personally, I would go with OP's advice.

[mrmillersr]

One of the greatest world scams and tragedies is the war on cancer. There are more people making their livelihoods off this scam than there are people being treated for it. Radiation, chemo, surgery - that is all they have been able to come up with in 40 plus years. This could have been irradicated just like polio years ago but the corrupt establishment figured out it was a cash cow and there was a lot of money to be made out of it. Welcome to the world of capitalism.

A great conspiracy theory.

Whilst I agree that the treatment of cancer fosters a huge industry, do you not think that there is just as much money to be made by the drugs companies in finding a cure to eradicate this awful disease?

There is already a cure for all cancers, and it is being kept from us?

I would be interested to hear the evidence that supports your assertion that the treatment of cancer is a "scam".

Rgds

Over the past decades, there has been billions of dollars spent with little if any success for a number of the major cancers. And here we are in the 21st century and what does the medical system (western) still use for treatments - surgery, chemo and radiation, with the later two likely leading to a sooner death rather than to a cure.

As I stated earlier, the cancer business is nothing more than an inflated cash cow that extracts huge sums of money every year off of another person's suffering. Back in the US, I worked in the alternative medical care field and saw first hand people with serious and sometimes "terminal" diseases get rescued using what are unaccepted practices according to the corrupt AMA.

Unfortunately, the public at large with its herd mentality, would rather buy into the lies of the establishment rather than seeking the answers they really need and the results speak for themselve. For anyone that thinks when the body is already in a weakened condition you can poison (chemo) or burn it (radiation) into a state of homestasis, it's time to wake up and get real.

[amexpat]

For anyone that thinks when the body is already in a weakened condition you can poison (chemo) or burn it (radiation) into a state of homestasis, it's time to wake up and get real.

WAKE UP, Lance Armstrong, Colin Powell, Nelson Mandela, Christina Applegate, Robert DeNiro, Rod Stewart and a few hundred thousand other "unreal" cancer survivors.

But they are all probably part of the international conspiracy that has tricked most of us - leaving mrmillersr to lead us to salvation. Good luck, sir, your special knowledge imposes a heavy onus.

[piercefilmlid]

One of the greatest world scams and tragedies is the war on cancer. There are more people making their livelihoods off this scam than there are people being treated for it. Radiation, chemo, surgery - that is all they have been able to come up with in 40 plus years. This could have been irradicated just like polio years ago but the corrupt establishment figured out it was a cash cow and there was a lot of money to be made out of it. Welcome to the world of capitalism.

A great conspiracy theory.

Whilst I agree that the treatment of cancer fosters a huge industry, do you not think that there is just as much money to be made by the drugs companies in finding a cure to eradicate this awful disease?

There is already a cure for all cancers, and it is being kept from us?

I would be interested to hear the evidence that supports your assertion that the treatment of cancer is a "scam".

Rgds

Over the past decades, there has been billions of dollars spent with little if any success for a number of the major cancers. And here we are in the 21st century and what does the medical system (western) still use for treatments - surgery, chemo and radiation, with the later two likely leading to a sooner death rather than to a cure.

As I stated earlier, the cancer business is nothing more than an inflated cash cow that extracts huge sums of money every year off of another person's suffering. Back in the US, I worked in the alternative medical care field and saw first hand people with serious and sometimes "terminal" diseases get rescued using what are unaccepted practices according to the corrupt AMA.

Unfortunately, the public at large with its herd mentality, would rather buy into the lies of the establishment rather than seeking the answers they really need and the results speak for themselve. For anyone that thinks when the body is already in a weakened condition you can poison (chemo) or burn it (radiation) into a state of homestasis, it's time to wake up and get real.

OK, I understand where you are coming from now

[goforit]

For anyone that thinks when the body is already in a weakened condition you can poison (chemo) or burn it (radiation) into a state of homestasis, it's time to wake up and get real.

WAKE UP, Lance Armstrong, Colin Powell, Nelson Mandela, Christina Applegate, Robert DeNiro, Rod Stewart and a few hundred thousand other "unreal" cancer survivors.

But they are all probably part of the international conspiracy that has tricked most of us - leaving mrmillersr to lead us to salvation. Good luck, sir, your special knowledge imposes a heavy onus.

So you think because there are people that survive these medieval treatments, this proves safety and effectiveness and people once diagnosed, should rush to get one of these procedures done? You are the one that needs to wake up and get your head out of the sand or where ever else you might have stuck it.

I've known 3 people personally that were told they had only months left to live after going through the route you would likely take if you were to get diagnosed with a serious and life threatening disease.

One was the father of the wife of a good friend of mine. He was told he had less than 6 months left to live after being treated at was supposedly some of the best US medical centers in the country.

Fortunately, he was open to what you would obviously toss aside as quackery and 10 years later he is still running his successful construction company. Same story with two woman I got to know who both were able to overcome what they were told was a death sentence. These were all cancer cases and they first went with traditional western chemo and radiation treatments, which is one of the problems. Often it is after the bodies immune system has been weakened to a point of no return, that people then seek out the alternative care options, with then little success.

Anyway, the majority will continue to believe the expensive and highly ineffective burn, poison, cut methods that are still being used today as the only way to go because there are survivors, in spite of these procedures. I, however, learned a long time ago to get rid of the herd mentality because it never has worked well in the past and it never will in the future. Of course, this just might be another conspiracy theory which is one way to scoff off everything that might be true or makes sense. Who knows since I'm not in the herd.

[Loaded]

Leonard Shapiro wrote (of Soviet Russia) that "the true object of propaganda is neither to convince nor even to persuade, but to produce a uniform pattern of public utterance in which the first trace of unorthodox thought reveals itself as a jarring dissonance" thereby producing a climate where in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is an idiot.

I like this. Unfortunately most people believe our 'democratic' governments are not controlled by forces greater than the ballot box.

Anyone questioning the latest flu epidemic is shouted down as crazy. Ask yourself why the HI Virus has no vaccination but every flu Virus does? Both, we are led to believe, mutate in to infinite numbers of variations but flu, which clears up by itself after a few days, requires expensive vaccinations and HIV, which doesn't clear up by itself within a few days, requires expensive treatments.

A vaccination for only one - unorthodox thought maybe.

[PeaceBlondie]

Returning to the topic: if I get cancer and wish to be treated by something more effective than dried rhinoceros penis extract, can I get treated here or should I hop on the next plane to Houston and M D Anderson?

[TRAZ57]

Returning to the topic: if I get cancer and wish to be treated by something more effective than dried rhinoceros penis extract, can I get treated here or should I hop on the next plane to Houston and M D Anderson?

I, too, think that the above is the main issue. It seems to me that the tools (medicines and machines) are here, and the doctors are here. It was my friend's experience that they were not put to use in an efficient manner. Was she merely unlucky or was her experience the norm? Doing the research on the internet while ill is difficult and the information is targeted towards people receiving treatment in western countries. Can readers here offer some help for those yet to be in this dilemma?

As for alternative treatments, my friend wanted to try the organic flaxseed oil and cottage cheese diet but she found that actually getting her hands on truly fresh oil here might be impossible. Also, by this point, her energy and motivation were rapidly declining due to the cancer and the effects of the treatment.

Another point raised by a poster was that of hospice. We were not able to find anything that resembles the western notion of hospice here that is available for cancer patients except a bed in a hospital at the very end. What are the alternatives? If any of you can shed light on these issues I think it may help others.

[amexpat]

Returning to the topic: if I get cancer and wish to be treated by something more effective than dried rhinoceros penis extract, can I get treated here or should I hop on the next plane to Houston and M D Anderson?

Maybe Bangkok is an "in between" solution? Just asking.