Chalerm Must Answer For Clip To Hun Sen

[jasreeve17]

Dead horse.

I understand; you don't feel comfortable admitting:

1) Yes, he said it.

2) Yes, he lied because he knew it was an awful thing to say.

3) No, of course somebody making such statements should not have been put in as foreign minister.

We'll just call it a dead horse instead...

Edited October 6, 2009 by jasreeve17

[Credo]

So Kasit sticks his foot in his mouth and Chalerm is in trouble for it?

By the way, it's gone very quiet here. Seems some people can't answer for their FM.

[animatic]

I was on a visa run, some of us DO have lives outside of TVF.

This just sounds like a way too strong partisan translation of something possibly Kasit said.

I doubt these were he words as translated, but ones turned to the worst possible interpretation.

That the truth is stretched in Thailand by political types and their enthralled acolytes shouldn't be surprising.

--------------------------------------------

Kasit was not FM when he said it.

What ever it wa,s and so far translations and versions are not conclusive

or in ACCORD FROM VERSION TO VERSION.

And Kasit was not in any official capacity has he said anything similar.

Chalerm IS in an official capacity as a PM and as leader a of the main Opposition Party.

That he took it on himself to attempt to sabotage relations with Cambodia at such a sensitive time is reprehensible.

Edited October 6, 2009 by animatic

[Credo]

And suppose he didn't say that the airport fiasco was great fun either.

[jasreeve17]

And suppose he didn't say that the airport fiasco was great fun either.

Credo,

Judging by your lowish number of posts, you're probably newish here. You will quickly learn that Plus and Animatic accept anything bad done by a yellow shirt as ok, old news, dead horse, or a clear lie. It's quite pointless picking them up on it; they're extremely polarized.

They know perfectly well that Kasit said some truly awful things, but they prefer to deflect and attack reds enemies rather than agree with any slight on their colour...

(I have PAD friends who confirmed to me what Kasit said. They used to come to work in PAD shirts singing PAD praises; we often argued. Nowadays they don't even wear yellow on Mondays and never talk politics with me. They admit to being ashamed of their previously held allegiances. At the time they fully accepted and defended Kasit's words... Unbelievably for people with PhDs, but true. Nationalism is a powerful tool to get the crowds straining at the leesh. I call it preaching hatred and find it dispicable.)

Edited October 6, 2009 by jasreeve17

[Credo]

Thanks. I read a lot of the posts, but don't post very often. It seems pointless to listen to the yellow choir sing to themselves.

[jasreeve17]

Thanks. I read a lot of the posts, but don't post very often. It seems pointless to listen to the yellow choir sing to themselves.

It's weird really because they are both clearly intelligent and write many interesting posts... Until anything PAD crops up then their IQ's seem to halve and otherwise rational minds start ranting nonsense.

Actually, I'm not sure that Plus is one individual because the writing style chops and changes between fluent native speaker and average second language speaker... Animatic is of course very unique with his language style (sometimes very nice to read, sometimes frustrating).

[Credo]

The political scene in Thailand is getting more like a religion that a process by which a country is governed. At any rate, it wasn't very nice of Chalerm to bring this to Hun Sen's attention, but he wasn't the root of the problem, Kasit was.

[jasreeve17]

The political scene in Thailand is getting more like a religion that a process by which a country is governed. At any rate, it wasn't very nice of Chalerm to bring this to Hun Sen's attention, but he wasn't the root of the problem, Kasit was.

Yes, that's a fair summing up.

[animatic]

I just don't take the hard core Red Thaksin lovers accounts

of what Kasit said as gospel truth. I haven't seen this posted

from a a 'neutral source' and so can believe ANY of the purported accusations.

Just more in the all not for Thaksin is Yellow bashing brigade ranting.

If the story remains the same often enough I might have some clarity..

till then... not much to pass judgment on.

And this hyprbole that I blindly accept anything the yellows do as fine

is provable wrong, by a great number of posts.

But why should that devolve a good flame.

In note you say you accept other points of view...

sure, as long as they agree with yours.

Otherwise it is middle of the road is far right or far left.

depending on your stance. Reduces credibility for sure.

[Plus]

Kasit has made that comment a year ago, and it was all over the news at that time.

By now it's a dead horse, Kasit and Hun Sen had countless meetings, the latest one only a couple of days ago. That comment is water under the bridge. Even your stereotypical woman doesn't bring up arguments as old as this, and let's not forget that Kasit-Hun Sen relationship is none of Chalerm's business.

The concern that appointing Kasit as FM would damage Thailand was valid last year. Now it's time to evaluate it, not warn about it. So far there seems to be no damage done. Internationally Thailand is doing fine, and the biggest hiccup, the Pattaya fiasco, was not Kasit's fault.

It was perpetrated by the very same people who thought Kasit would be a problem for Thailand's international image. Yeah, they really care...

Edited October 7, 2009 by Plus

[jasreeve17]

Animatic - look at Plus' first sentence.

By the way, I don't like MrT and never have.

[Artisi]

That he took it on himself to attempt to sabotage relations with Cambodia at such a sensitive time is reprehensible.

So what's new from such a lowlife who would do anything for the recipient of his "brown-nosing" who is sure to throw a few lousy Baht his way every time he grovels to his master.

[TAWP]

Thanks. I read a lot of the posts, but don't post very often. It seems pointless to listen to the yellow choir sing to themselves.

It's weird really because they are both clearly intelligent and write many interesting posts... Until anything PAD crops up then their IQ's seem to halve and otherwise rational minds start ranting nonsense.

Actually, I'm not sure that Plus is one individual because the writing style chops and changes between fluent native speaker and average second language speaker... Animatic is of course very unique with his language style (sometimes very nice to read, sometimes frustrating).

Wow, how many posts did you and the meatpuppet just create back and forth so you could flame Plus and others for being stupid?

And Credo, your post-count isn't "low" for the time you have been here, not even close...

[jasreeve17]

Thanks. I read a lot of the posts, but don't post very often. It seems pointless to listen to the yellow choir sing to themselves.

It's weird really because they are both clearly intelligent and write many interesting posts... Until anything PAD crops up then their IQ's seem to halve and otherwise rational minds start ranting nonsense.

Actually, I'm not sure that Plus is one individual because the writing style chops and changes between fluent native speaker and average second language speaker... Animatic is of course very unique with his language style (sometimes very nice to read, sometimes frustrating).

Wow, how many posts did you and the meatpuppet just create back and forth so you could flame Plus and others for being stupid?

And Credo, your post-count isn't "low" for the time you have been here, not even close...

Sorry TAWP, that I missed you out; quite an oversight...

(And what's a 'meatpuppet"? )

[TAWP]

Thanks. I read a lot of the posts, but don't post very often. It seems pointless to listen to the yellow choir sing to themselves.

It's weird really because they are both clearly intelligent and write many interesting posts... Until anything PAD crops up then their IQ's seem to halve and otherwise rational minds start ranting nonsense.

Actually, I'm not sure that Plus is one individual because the writing style chops and changes between fluent native speaker and average second language speaker... Animatic is of course very unique with his language style (sometimes very nice to read, sometimes frustrating).

Wow, how many posts did you and the meatpuppet just create back and forth so you could flame Plus and others for being stupid?

And Credo, your post-count isn't "low" for the time you have been here, not even close...

Sorry TAWP, that I missed you out; quite an oversight...

(And what's a 'meatpuppet"? )

*sigh*

Yes, everyone that disagrees with your simplistic view is 'stupid' or has 'halved IQ' when approached with the subject.

[seri thai]

What a three-some, Chalerm, Kasit and Hun Sen. Difficult to know who is worse.

Exactly! As fahrangs that's all we need to know!

[seri thai]

Thanks. I read a lot of the posts, but don't post very often. It seems pointless to listen to the yellow choir sing to themselves.

It's weird really because they are both clearly intelligent and write many interesting posts... Until anything PAD crops up then their IQ's seem to halve and otherwise rational minds start ranting nonsense.

Actually, I'm not sure that Plus is one individual because the writing style chops and changes between fluent native speaker and average second language speaker... Animatic is of course very unique with his language style (sometimes very nice to read, sometimes frustrating).

Wow, how many posts did you and the meatpuppet just create back and forth so you could flame Plus and others for being stupid?

And Credo, your post-count isn't "low" for the time you have been here, not even close...

Sorry TAWP, that I missed you out; quite an oversight...

(And what's a 'meatpuppet"? )

Meatpuppet

The term meatpuppet or "meat puppet" is used as a pejorative description for a number of quite different online behaviors. An early recorded use is in cyberpunk novelist William Gibson's Neuromancer (1984).[16] The term had a long history before the internet, including the hardcore band Meat Puppets, and a TV series broadcast in 1980 and featuring Wil Wheaton.

Editors of the online encyclopedia Wikipedia use "meat puppet" to deprecate contributions from a new community member if the new member was (apparently) recruited by an existing member only to back up the recruiting member's position.[17] Wired columnist Lore Sjöberg puts "meat puppet" first on a satirical list of "common terms used at Wikipedia," giving its supposed Wikipedia meaning as "someone you disagree with."[18]

A number of other online sources, however, use the term "meatpuppet" for varied sockpuppet behaviors. For example, according to one online encyclopedia, a meat puppet "publishes comments on blogs, wikis and other public venues about some phenomenon or product in order to generate public interest and buzz"—that is, engages in the kind of behavior more widely known as astroturfing.

A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception within an online community. In its earliest usage, a sockpuppet was a false identity through which a member of an Internet community speaks with or about himself or herself, pretending to be a different person,[1] like a ventriloquist manipulating a hand puppet.

In current usage, the perception of the term has been extended beyond second identities of people who already post in a forum to include other uses of misleading online identities. For example, a NY Times article claims that "sock-puppeting" is defined as "the act of creating a fake online identity to praise, defend or create the illusion of support for one’s self, allies or company."[2]

The key difference between a sockpuppet and a regular pseudonym (sometimes termed an "alt" which is short for alternate, as in alternate identity) is the pretense that the puppet is a third party who is not affiliated with the puppeteer.

The earliest known[1] usage of the term was on July 9, 1993 by Dana Rollins in a posting to bit.listserv.fnord-l,[3] but the term was not in common usage in USENET groups until 1996. On some message boards, such as Survivor Sucks, a sockpuppet is called a "ghostie."

Phew, It's a cyber-jungle out there!

[animatic]

Meatpuppet, implies lack of free will to make a point,

or by free will agreeing to hew to one point of view

for reasons of APPEARANCE of ideological solidarity.

Or it has the appearance of a free will creature, when in reality is a false flag,

pseudo being pretending at actual solidarity, when split personality is more the metaphor.

But none the less, there is a hand coming up from under and making it's

the eye balls roll and the digits osculate in controlled pattern's.

Just because it types, and a tiger could eat it with delight,

doesn't mean it doesn't have strings attached.

Edited October 8, 2009 by animatic

[Rumfoord]

I just don't take the hard core Red Thaksin lovers accounts

of what Kasit said as gospel truth.

so what Kasit had actually said according your information?

and why is it "treason" and so dangerous if Chalerm send a video of a Kasit speech to Hun Sen?

[jasreeve17]

Meatpuppet - thanks for the explaination.

It's actually quite a problem, but I'm not sure that I'd feel comfortable with a member of 'solidarity yellow' aiming that at me...

Back to TAWP: I'm interested in differing viewpoints, but get very bored by polarized views which go nowhere. If you look back, you'll see that I have a very flexible viewpoint and often concede points, and / or change my mind due to other posters making intelligent arguments .

This thread is a good example. Kasit made a shocking error - that's clear. Chalerm acted in a very bad way too. (Two wrongs which don't make a right; on either side.) But, instead of agreeing that he did so, some 'meatpuppets' (my first and last usage...) just deflect the blame and spin it. You must admit that the likes of Plus just spin non-stop. You have to give the posters credit for their enthusiasm, but really it goes nowhere.

You know, yesterday, I made a mistake. Yes, it's true. It wasn't MrT's fault. It wasn't Abhisit's fault and it wasn't Sondhi's fault either. It wasn't even, and I find this difficult to say, it wasn't even the generals' fault. It was my fault. No spin. My fault.

[Plus]

You must admit that the likes of Plus just spin non-stop.

All I'm saying that bringing up past wrongs to help Hun Sen in his fight with Thailand is treasonous by internet discussion standards, if legally not so, and arguing Kasit's old remarks is a waste of time and space.

I read a detailed article (several actually) by senior Thai academics (of law) stating that Kasit's remarks were.[treasonous - plus]

Wow, that's what academics are busy doing these days? Analyzing verbal garbage?

Or maybe you meant not "senior" but "senile".

[jasreeve17]

You must admit that the likes of Plus just spin non-stop.

All I'm saying that bringing up past wrongs to help Hun Sen in his fight with Thailand is treasonous by internet discussion standards, if legally not so, and arguing Kasit's old remarks is a waste of time and space.

I read a detailed article (several actually) by senior Thai academics (of law) stating that Kasit's remarks were.[treasonous - plus]

Wow, that's what academics are busy doing these days? Analyzing verbal garbage?

Or maybe you meant not "senior" but "senile".

The problem is Plus, you're not consistent - you'll bring up MrT's wrongs and others you disagree with til Kingdom come; it never gets old for you...

It's one set of rules for the people you follow, and another completely different set of rules for people you don't follow. Like your last point; educate and knowledgeable people make a statement you don't agree with and you spin it into: 'verbal garbage' by 'senile' academics...

[TAWP]

jasreeve17>> I think the point raised is that while Kasit might have made a typical stupid nationalistic speech for a Thai audience, the only reason Chalerm would send it - this long time after! - to Hun Sen (probably hoping he didn't even know about it) was to stir up problems for the government and/or the country, which works fine for him and his puppetmaster as any sign of stability is an obstacle for them to overcome to be able to overthrow the government further down the line.

In terms of interests of the nation, Chalerm is clearly the one closest to any form of treacherous stamp being put on him of them too.

Putting their own interest over the safety of soldiers and the nation is typical of the group at hand and perhaps one should not be surprised.

[jasreeve17]

jasreeve17>> I think the point raised is that while Kasit might have made a typical stupid nationalistic speech for a Thai audience, the only reason Chalerm would send it - this long time after! - to Hun Sen (probably hoping he didn't even know about it) was to stir up problems for the government and/or the country, which works fine for him and his puppetmaster as any sign of stability is an obstacle for them to overcome to be able to overthrow the government further down the line.

In terms of interests of the nation, Chalerm is clearly the one closest to any form of treacherous stamp being put on him of them too.

Putting their own interest over the safety of soldiers and the nation is typical of the group at hand and perhaps one should not be surprised.

I completely agree with your first paragraph, TAWP.

Regarding your other point, I'd say that Kasit was the root of the problem; this doesn't justify Chalerm's actions in any way.

To use this example to attack the reds, again, is monotonous to say the least. I dislike the red leaders, as much as you do, but I don't see every action as purely one-sided. This is the same issue time after time after time; the polarization issue. Aren't you bored of it? I know I am. Don't you find the non-stop spin pathetic? I know I do. I did when MrT was boss, and I do with the PAD / dems / army now.

Meet the new boss, he's the same as the last...

[Rumfoord]

jasreeve17>> I think the point raised is that while Kasit might have made a typical stupid nationalistic speech for a Thai audience, the only reason Chalerm would send it - this long time after! - to Hun Sen (probably hoping he didn't even know about it) was to stir up problems for the government and/or the country, which works fine for him and his puppetmaster as any sign of stability is an obstacle for them to overcome to be able to overthrow the government further down the line.

In terms of interests of the nation, Chalerm is clearly the one closest to any form of treacherous stamp being put on him of them too.

Putting their own interest over the safety of soldiers and the nation is typical of the group at hand and perhaps one should not be surprised.

there is a stinky nationalistic mindset that heated up and created the situation like it is now between Thailand and Cambodia in the first place.

and for the sake of the Nation a figure like Kasit shouldn't have become the FM.

and it is a wrong form of patriotism and/or a stinky nationalistic mindset to support Kasit now just because he is part of the Government. and it is a stinky nationalistic mindset that look at cambodia as the enemy. and it is a stinky nationalistic mindset that is now so furious because Chalerm send an audio file abroad.

in terms of best interest for the Nation - get rid of Kasit. and get rid of the people that choose/selected Kasit as FM. their stinky nationalistic mindset is not good for the Nation.

[TAWP]

You two guys are forgetting where you live. As a Libertarian I don't agree with national borders on any level, but I am also a realist and a pragmatic when it comes to Thailand. You cannot proclaim that one individual that is part of a nation of 61 million of very much same ideas (we can argue WHY in another thread, that is besides the point right now) and point out that he would in any shape or form be a black sheep.

He isn't. He is a product of the nation and as such he represents the nation well. Be it by being a simpleton on international issues or using nationalistic rhetoric in daily speeches.

And just so we can get full circle: The national became less foreigner friendly during Thaksin's reign, both economically and regarding Visa's and PR's.

So it isn't just one simpleton that has been in position of power recently.

It is most of them.

[jasreeve17]

I agree, TAWP.

Chalerm is a truly awful and typical Thai politician. The same as Kasit, Sondhi, Sonthi, MrT, Newin... We could go on and on.

Now try to convince posters like Plus and Animatic who see folk like Sondhi as a saviour, forgetting everything he has done and who he has shown himself to be.

The events I always come back to are elections and coups. Folk that support coups, but claim to be democratic, then argue against elections, but claim to be democratic, and, AND! justify silencing people that disagree with them, but still claim to be democratic, well I have to say that these folk demonstrate a very different understanding of democracy from the rest of us.

Edited October 8, 2009 by jasreeve17

[Plus]

Jasreeve, what's your problem with Kasit exactly? What has he done in the past nine months that puts him on the same list as Chalerm and Newin?

He has been working as a Foreign Minister all this time - any particular problems with how he performed his duties? I haven't seen even one critical article. The only screw up Thailand had internationally was the red disruption of Asean summit.

Have you seen his CV, btw? He's a career diplomat with several very high profile postings. No one ever doubted his qualifications. As for concerns about his connection with PAD - nothing happened, diplomatic community accepted him and there were no repercussions.

Are you sure you have the right date on your calendar - while you get so incensed over last year's news, it's nearly the end of 2009 elsewhere?

And let's leave aside trollish urges to discuss my opinion of Sondhi in this thread. I won't take your bait.

[jasreeve17]

Jasreeve, what's your problem with Kasit exactly? What has he done in the past nine months that puts him on the same list as Chalerm and Newin?

He has been working as a Foreign Minister all this time - any particular problems with how he performed his duties? I haven't seen even one critical article. The only screw up Thailand had internationally was the red disruption of Asean summit.

Have you seen his CV, btw? He's a career diplomat with several very high profile postings. No one ever doubted his qualifications. As for concerns about his connection with PAD - nothing happened, diplomatic community accepted him and there were no repercussions.

Are you sure you have the right date on your calendar - while you get so incensed over last year's news, it's nearly the end of 2009 elsewhere?

And let's leave aside trollish urges to discuss my opinion of Sondhi in this thread. I won't take your bait.

I still get angry and upset over lots of old news Plus; Hitler killing millions would be the easy example. We learn from history, we must remember it and act upon our mistakes.

I have a problem with the way Kasit came to office and the things he said at the rallies. As you know, his anti-Thaksin talks were hate-filled extremism. I also have a problem with the way the Dems got into power. These people preach democracy, but don't practice it.

If he hadn't of made the outrageous insults to our neighbours, and if his party had been democratically elected then he may well of been a politician that I supported belonging to a party I supported. I wouldn't put him on the same list as Chalerm and Nevin yet, but he has shown potential... (Let's hope he doesn't make it all the way.)

Re Sondhi: Do you know if they are wearing black T-shirts, the new party? They seemed to be at Thammasart yesterday, but I came late and just saw dribs and drabs. An honest question.

Lastly, if you wanted to, you could call me Jas, I wouldn't mind, we've known each other long enough.