Nam Ning Lai Luek

[vestalfleck]

Hello. I am interested in the Thai proverb "nam ning lai luek" which can be translated into "still water runs deep". In my home country, this has a positive connotation. I assumed the same in Thailand but one friend of mine said that it also has a negative connotation. Though there was a bit of a language barrier he explained to me that it could possibly mean that you were a liar, sneaky or dishonest (or something along those lines). I doubted him as he is not Thai (hilltribe-forget which one). He is though, very intelligent and said that he asked his mentor about it who confirmed it has both positive and negative connotations.

Anyways, I am so concerned with this because I want to get a tattoo of the proverb as it is very fitting of my character. I certainly wouldn't get the tattoo if it could be perceived negatively. Please only respond if you have an informed/educated answer (i.e. Thai linguists, very familiar with the proverb, asked various Thai people).

Thanks in advance!

Vestalfleck

[SoftWater]

According to the examples given in สุภาษิดอังกฤษคำสอนใจของไทย by รัชนี ซอโสตถิกุล (Chula Press, 2007), น้ำนิ่งไหลลึก (Still water runs deep) can be understood negatively. The author cites the following in English as an example of its meaning in use

"As for her, still waters run deep, it seems. She always looked so solemn..fancy her shooting him!"

The author goes on to further elucidate its meaning by comparing it to:

"Beware of a silent man and still water"

ระวังคนที่เงียบและน้ำที่นิ่ง

ra:wang kon tee(2) ngiab(2) leh:(1) nam(3) tee(2) ning(2)

The explanation goes on to say to be careful of people who can be described with this expression because

คนพูดมักไม่ทำ คนทำมักไม่พูด

kon puut(2) mak(3) mai(2) tam

kon tam mak(3) mai(2) puut(2)

[A person that speaks often does not act;

a person that acts often does not speak]

Softwater

Edited October 6, 2009 by SoftWater

[Rikker]

It seems to have had a negative meaning in English, originally. The idiom may have been inspired by Shakespeare:

c. 1590, Henry VI, Part 2, act 3, sc. 1:

Smooth runs the water where the brook is deep;

And in his simple show he harbours treason.

1822, Catharine Maria Sedgwick, "A New-England Tale,"

"I always knew she was an artful jade; 'still waters run deep;' but she shall be exposed, the mask shall be stripped from the hypocrite."

etc.

[DavidHouston]

From "โคลงสำนวน สุภาษิตไทย" by สุทธิ ภิบาลแทน, page 159, item 589:

น้ำนิ่ง . . . ไหลลึก

น้ำนิ่งผิวน้ำเรียบ . . . ลมสงบ

ไหลลึกยากค้นพบ . . . หยั่งได้

คนฉลาดย่อมเกลื่อนกลบ . . . ความคิด ไว้แฮ

ยากนักที่จะให้ . . . ล่วงรู้ใจตน

My free-hand translation:

"Still Waters Run Deep

Still water on the surface . . . The wind is calm

Deep waters beneath are hard . . . to fathom

A wise man may hide . . . his wisdom

For us it is hard to know . . . his true self."

Several notes:

1. The word "แฮ" in the third line, Bui tells me, is a poetic sound addition carrying no particular meaning.

2. The use of the word "หยั่ง" in this context is interesting. The word according to Lexitron means "to explore; probe; research; sound out; feel out". The English cognate might well be the metaphoric use of the verb "to fathom" which means in the concrete sense for a ship or boat to test the depth of the water in which it is sailing. Isn't it appropriate that this term is used in the context of "น้ำนิ่งไหลลึก"?

What do you think? Thanks.

Edited October 11, 2009 by DavidHouston

[SoftWater]

Thanks David, very nice. It reminds me of Lao Tzu's 'Tao Te Ching' (classic text of Chinese taoism).

I worked through it with my dictionaries and found your translation good.

Two questions for you:

i. what, if any, semantic role would you give to the word เกลื่อน in this context?

ii. I see the word ย่อม can also have the connotation of 'inevitably, naturally, of course' as well as 'may/can'

Thinking of the Tao Te Ching, which plays between describing and prescribing the actions of a sage,

could we translate the line

คนฉลาดย่อมเกลื่อนกลบ . . . ความคิด ไว้แฮ

'A wise man naturally conceals his thoughts'?

Incidentally, does anyone happen to know what either the 'Tao Te Ching' or 'Lao Tzu' is called in Thai? David's post has given me the idea that I might like to have a go at reading it in Thai.

Edited October 12, 2009 by SoftWater

[DavidHouston]

I see the spelling "เล่าจื้อ" at http://www.neutron.rmutphysics.com/news/in...4&Itemid=13

Note the sentence:

"เหลาจื้อเป็นใคร? เหลาจื้อ เป็นศาสดาผู้ให้กำเนิดลัทธิเต๋าใช่หรือไม่? เป็นประเด็นปัญหาที่ยังไม่มีข้อยุติเด็ดขาด เพราะเรื่องราวชีวิตและผลงานความคิดของเหลาจื้อไม่มีหลักฐานบันทึกไว้ ละเอียดชัดเจน"

And, Taoism here is "ลัทธิเต๋า". Elsewhere, I have seen the spelling "เล่าจื๊อ"

[DavidHouston]

As to the question regarding "เกลื่อนกลบ" in "คนฉลาดย่อมเกลื่อนกลบ . . . ความคิด ไว้แฮ", the word can be found in its reverse form in dictionaries: Lexitron " กลบเกลื่อน [V] conceal; hide; cover up Syn. ปิดบัง, อำพราง, ปกปิด, กลบ, ซ่อนเร้น, แอบแฝง Ant. เปิดเผย." I suspect that the reversal was used for poetic purposes. The grammatical usage, however is as a transitive verb form.

I wish I knew more about Thai poetic styles. For a full discussion of standard or classical styles, see "หลักภาษาไทย" by กำชัย ทองหล่อ, pages 522 - 540. The book from which the verses come refers to the classic styles used as "โคลง ๔ สุภาพ" and "โคลง ๔ จัตวาทัณฑื". The first of these two styles is discussed by กำชัย on page 523. Maybe someone in these forums could be helpful in explaining these forms.

Finally, "naturally conceals" sounds good to me also.

Thanks for your comments and questions.

[Rikker]

เกลื่อน is part of the alliterative double เกลื่อนกลบ -- more commonly seen as กลบเกลื่อน. In poetry, expressions like this are often switched for the sake of rhyme or meter (in this case, apparently so กลบ can be in the correct metrical position to rhyme with สงบ and พบ).

But it looks like you understand the meaning just fine.

[Edit: Whoops, I didn't see David's earlier reply.]