Chiang Mai - Is It Safe?

[caf]

Seems every few months this topic comes round again.........

And every time I read all the, "it's so safe here" comments I wonder if I live in the same city

Sure, for the vast majority of Farang's living here, it is a reasonably safe place, especially if you don;t drink, don't ride a motosai, don't go out late at night and stick to tourist/ex-pat venues or ex-pat club meetings. Yep, you can enjoy a long and happy life here waiting for heart disease, or cancer to get you

But, step across the tracks into the Thai side of town and its a very different story. I've lived in some rough places before but here in CM, among Thais, and especially Tai Yais, I've seen more fights, nastier fights, the biggest bar brawls, more guns, knives machetes, samurai swords, sling shots, serious wounds inflicted by all of these weapons, more drugs, more people effected by drugs, more people stealling anything to feed their addictions (Drugs and gambling), more people with serious alcohol problems (lao Kaao) more people killed or maimed in motobike accidents, more people mugged for their motosai or torasap, more kids savagely beaten because of the school they attend, big gang fights, etc, etc, etc than I ever did even in the roughest places in the west.

The OP may have a sucessful "No riff raff" policy and Farang orientated bars are largely probelm free (apart from the occasional drunken Farang trying to restart the last world war), but get out into the burbs and its another world. Whilst personally I've never had a problem, I've seen many local people hospitalised from violent incidents here, not to mention a good friend violently murdered. If you think CM is really a safe city it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Anyway, "Safety First" I always go out with my infamous bodyguards and leave the fighting to them Or if the bodyguards are busy there's always the Katoeys - No one messes with them

Edit: Second thoughts, that's two friends murdered in the last year, and another acquaintance in jail for murdering someone else! And another scumbag who ought to be in jail is still happily walking the streets.....

There are two Thailands. And I find many expats only see the rosy one, or pretend everything is all rosy. There is no need to be paranoid but I feel people should have more realism.

[Mapguy]

Seems every few months this topic comes round again.........

And every time I read all the, "it's so safe here" comments I wonder if I live in the same city

Sure, for the vast majority of Farang's living here, it is a reasonably safe place, especially if you don;t drink, don't ride a motosai, don't go out late at night and stick to tourist/ex-pat venues or ex-pat club meetings. Yep, you can enjoy a long and happy life here waiting for heart disease, or cancer to get you

But, step across the tracks into the Thai side of town and its a very different story. I've lived in some rough places before but here in CM, among Thais, and especially Tai Yais, I've seen more fights, nastier fights, the biggest bar brawls, more guns, knives machetes, samurai swords, sling shots, serious wounds inflicted by all of these weapons, more drugs, more people effected by drugs, more people stealling anything to feed their addictions (Drugs and gambling), more people with serious alcohol problems (lao Kaao) more people killed or maimed in motobike accidents, more people mugged for their motosai or torasap, more kids savagely beaten because of the school they attend, big gang fights, etc, etc, etc than I ever did even in the roughest places in the west.

The OP may have a successful "No riff raff" policy and Farang orientated bars are largely probelm free (apart from the occasional drunken Farang trying to restart the last world war), but get out into the burbs and its another world. Whilst personally I've never had a problem, I've seen many local people hospitalised from violent incidents here, not to mention a good friend violently murdered. If you think CM is really a safe city it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Anyway, "Safety First" I always go out with my infamous bodyguards and leave the fighting to them Or if the bodyguards are busy there's always the Katoeys - No one messes with them

Edit: Second thoughts, that's two friends murdered in the last year, and another acquaintance in jail for murdering someone else! And another scumbag who ought to be in jail is still happily walking the streets.....

It seems that you prefer living closer to "the edge." GOOD LUCK!

The "Thai side of town?" That's a gratuitous insult. Seems you --- and others you play with --- travel in the gutters of the city. Every city has gutters. Better than leach fields, generally. Again, GOOD LUCK!

Edited October 26, 2009 by Mapguy

[Mapguy]

Seems every few months this topic comes round again.........

And every time I read all the, "it's so safe here" comments I wonder if I live in the same city

Sure, for the vast majority of Farang's living here, it is a reasonably safe place, especially if you don;t drink, don't ride a motosai, don't go out late at night and stick to tourist/ex-pat venues or ex-pat club meetings. Yep, you can enjoy a long and happy life here waiting for heart disease, or cancer to get you

But, step across the tracks into the Thai side of town and its a very different story. I've lived in some rough places before but here in CM, among Thais, and especially Tai Yais, I've seen more fights, nastier fights, the biggest bar brawls, more guns, knives machetes, samurai swords, sling shots, serious wounds inflicted by all of these weapons, more drugs, more people effected by drugs, more people stealling anything to feed their addictions (Drugs and gambling), more people with serious alcohol problems (lao Kaao) more people killed or maimed in motobike accidents, more people mugged for their motosai or torasap, more kids savagely beaten because of the school they attend, big gang fights, etc, etc, etc than I ever did even in the roughest places in the west.

The OP may have a sucessful "No riff raff" policy and Farang orientated bars are largely probelm free (apart from the occasional drunken Farang trying to restart the last world war), but get out into the burbs and its another world. Whilst personally I've never had a problem I've seen many local people hospitalised from violent incidents here, not to mention a good friend violently murdered. If you think CM is really a safe city it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Anyway, "Safety First" I always go out with my infamous bodyguards and leave the fighting to them Or if the bodyguards are busy there's always the Katoeys - No one messes with them

Sorry that you are living in the fuc_ked up part of Chiang Mai. For me, violence is reserved for Thai punk peers and not directed at foreigners or gay sadomasochist. A respectful thing I always say. Try living in a different world. If you like hanging with these losers then you get what you want.

If you wonder if you live in the same city the answer is that you do not. We live in a peaceful land where all the people smile when confronted, just before you give them the 500 Baht.

And please change your avatar, it is disrespectful. You might not think so but it is.

Agree!

[getgoin]

Agree!

Yikes, there is hope. We agree on something. Thanks.

[Drew Aitch]

But, step across the tracks into the Thai side of town and its a very different story....

Crikey, and there was me thinking that Thais live all over CM. There's some bloody good lookalikes around, that's all i can say! Or maybe the 'Farang' side of town is full of well tanned expats that have been here so long that they've evolved to blend in with the characteristics of the native ha ha lol

The member profile of the person who wrote that says, and i quote:

I guess 90% of Thai Visa posters would describe me as obnoxious if they met me in person, and I don't have a problem with that (most of my friends are Thai

It's seems a little odd that someone so in tune with the locals and at odds with his western counterparts (assuming he's not a Thai?), feels it necessary to interact with his fellow foreigners in a web forum

But seriously folks, there are good and bad neighbourhoods in just about every major town and city in the world, and i'm sure CM and the rest of Thailand has its share of each.

Aitch

[sassienie]

As fascinating as it is to hear that it's raining in Hang Dong, or to find out how much we should be paying for onions, and since the 'Tourist Numbers Drop By Almost One Million' post has ended up as a debate about the murder rates of Thailand, I thought it might be slightly more interesting to hear how safe people feel visiting, or living in, Chiang Mai. 

If we can forget about the inherrent dangers of stubbing your toe on an uneven footpath, death from falling coconuts or the obvious dangers of driving in Chiang Mai and instead concentrate on the general question of personal safety or threat of violence, then personally, I would have to say that I feel very safe here. A critic (such people do exist) once suggested that I was burying my head in the sand over a similar debate and even pushed the point further by attaching a picture of an ostrich!!! Hopefully, he has, since then, been savaged by rabid soi dogs (a  topic of debate in itself, but some other time, maybe).

So, what do you think? Should I continue to wander about with a care-free attitude, a song in my head and a spring in my step, or should I be looking over my shoulder and avoiding the shadows?

PS - If we could hold back on the graphs and statistics, that would be nice. And if you're looking for 'subliminal advertising' - there ain't none.

PPS - If you're new here .... you might want to take the comments from the Knife-man of Bangkok and the guy who thinks he's a primate, with a little pinch of salt.  

Beware of the Riff Raff!

There are lots of them here in Chiang Mai and more coming in each year.

They’re vicious and if provoked can hit over the head with their Leo beer bottles.

There is no point putting up a no riff raff sign because they cant read and hardly anyways to defeat them.

[Paagai]

But, step across the tracks into the Thai side of town and its a very different story....

Crikey, and there was me thinking that Thais live all over CM. There's some bloody good lookalikes around, that's all i can say! Or maybe the 'Farang' side of town is full of well tanned expats that have been here so long that they've evolved to blend in with the characteristics of the native ha ha lol

You are interpretting my comments literally, rather than the conceptually metaphorical way I intended. My point was many Thai's experiences of life here are very different from the average Farang's. Violence between Thais is almost as likely in the centre of tourist areas, like the night bazzar, as it is in the more remote parts of the city where Farangs seldom venture.

But seriously folks, there are good and bad neighbourhoods in just about every major town and city in the world, and i'm sure CM and the rest of Thailand has its share of each.

Indeed, but it always suprises me how many here seem totally oblivious, or in denial, of the fact that bad places, and bad people might exist in Chiang Mai (as they do elsewhere). Just because Thais smile a lot doesn't make them all angels When that calm exterior breaks down, the resulting violence can be extreme, not just wanting to inflict pain and a few bruises, but more like a fight to the death (which it often is). And the victims have very little hope of any justice either; for many Thais life here is not "safe" at all.

[KevinHunt]

Seems every few months this topic comes round again.........

And every time I read all the, "it's so safe here" comments I wonder if I live in the same city

Sure, for the vast majority of Farang's living here, it is a reasonably safe place, especially if you don;t drink, don't ride a motosai, don't go out late at night and stick to tourist/ex-pat venues or ex-pat club meetings. Yep, you can enjoy a long and happy life here waiting for heart disease, or cancer to get you

But, step across the tracks into the Thai side of town and its a very different story. I've lived in some rough places before but here in CM, among Thais, and especially Tai Yais, I've seen more fights, nastier fights, the biggest bar brawls, more guns, knives machetes, samurai swords, sling shots, serious wounds inflicted by all of these weapons, more drugs, more people effected by drugs, more people stealling anything to feed their addictions (Drugs and gambling), more people with serious alcohol problems (lao Kaao) more people killed or maimed in motobike accidents, more people mugged for their motosai or torasap, more kids savagely beaten because of the school they attend, big gang fights, etc, etc, etc than I ever did even in the roughest places in the west.

The OP may have a sucessful "No riff raff" policy and Farang orientated bars are largely probelm free (apart from the occasional drunken Farang trying to restart the last world war), but get out into the burbs and its another world. Whilst personally I've never had a problem, I've seen many local people hospitalised from violent incidents here, not to mention a good friend violently murdered. If you think CM is really a safe city it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Anyway, "Safety First" I always go out with my infamous bodyguards and leave the fighting to them Or if the bodyguards are busy there's always the Katoeys - No one messes with them

Edit: Second thoughts, that's two friends murdered in the last year, and another acquaintance in jail for murdering someone else! And another scumbag who ought to be in jail is still happily walking the streets.....

    I only talk from experience. In 20 years I've never had any problems. I live in a small soi in town where everybody knows me, and spend most of my evenings in the Night bazaar, where the majority of the people in the vicinity of my pub know me well. I live a reasonably quiet life with occasional late-night outings. I also lived for twenty years in one of the roughest  parts of Liverpool and never had any problems. We must be making different choices as to who we hang around with and where we go. On the short stroll from my place to Guitar man I imagine 5 or 6 people I pass will wai to me and say 'Sawat di Pa'. I get the same response from the staff at Guitarman. I've never come across any threat of violence, just politeness and respect.

  On a late night visit to Kheuy Chiang Mai to watch a Champions League match I had an interesting experience involving some drunken Thai teenagers. They had come out of Rasta Art Bar and were  well pissed (drunk). As I made my way towards them one of them made a slightly rude comment to me. Maybe he was used to hanging around with young drunken farangs and he thought he was being clever in front of his mates. I stopped and asked him, in Thai how old he was. The immediate response of his girl-friend was an apologetic wai and apologies for her ill-mannered boyfriend. The others followed suit. I had simply made a suggestion that someone so young shouldn't be rude to their elders and they all responded with apologies!! That's as close as I've come to having a problem in the last few years.  

   I don't doubt that parts of Chiang Mai and any other city in the world can be rough but I choose not to go there. I also choose who I hang around with. Just out of curiosity ... what exactly is your motivation for hanging around with murderers and scumbags?

BTW. This topic was aimed at local expats and regular tourists. I have no doubt that young Thai males get involved in all kinds of trouble but most of us don't hang around with them. 

  

Edited October 26, 2009 by KevinHunt

[Paagai]

  I only talk from experience. In 20 years I've never had any problems.

Just out of curiosity ... what exactly is your motivation for starting this thread? You SURE it's not the subliminal advertising?

Of course, if you re-read what I wrote, you'll find we are in agreement, I too said: "I've never had a problem", well, not many anyway and generally I think that's true of most ex-pats living here. However, I've noticed that the way locals behave with Farang, is not the way they behave with each other. Ref your example, I wonder how things would have gone down if the drunk Thai Teenager had behaved the same with Thai peers from a different school, moo ban, Tambon, or whatever factor that gets the tribal red mist going?

Let me give you a counter example. A few weeks ago I'm having a quiet drink at a Thai friend's bar, located in a not particularly bad part of town close to Huay Kaew Rd and with a Farang owned bar in the same soi; I'm just realxing talking to friends, nobody's drunk, just chilling. So at the end of the Soi there is quite a large distrubance. "Boxing Maak Maak" as Thai friend puts it. Soon as it's calmed down I finish my drink and leave. On exiting the Soi I find a small crowd standing indifferently around an unconcious young Thai student (still in his college uniform) who's been severely beaten, and to whom the crew of a rescue truck are adminstering CPR. The couple of BIB in attendence were more interested in the young ladies in the "Audience" than what was going on in front of them; not exactly what you'd call western style policing

So I ask you a question: whatever the outcome (I don't know, but it can't have been good), do you think the parents of the victim think Chiang Mai is a "Safe Place"? Just out of curiosity ...

   I don't doubt that parts of Chiang Mai and any other city in the world can be rough but I choose not to go there. I also choose who I hang around with. Just out of curiosity ... what exactly is your motivation for hanging around with murderers and scumbags?

BTW. This topic was aimed at local expats and regular tourists. I have no doubt that young Thai males get involved in all kinds of trouble but most of us don't hang around with them.  

You (and a couple of other posters) have immediately assumed that, because I commented that there is another side to CM that doesn't fit the conception of "Paradise" some see through their rose tinted glasses, I'm guilty of "hanging around with murderers and scumbags". Sure, I know a few people who's opportunities in life have not been the same as your or mine, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are all the scum of the earth right? As someone who's "lived for twenty years in one of the roughest parts of Liverpool" you should understand where I'm coming from on that one, right?

[john b good]

I felt safer in Japan than Chiang Mai, but safer in Chiang Mai than San Francisco.

However, I don't think that Chiang Mai is all that safe for women.

Strictly speaking there is no place in Thailand which could be really described as being safe for women.

From monks raping and murdering female tourists at Phuket, and Sukhothai, Welsh girl suffering the same fate (albeit not by a monk) here in Chiang Mai, girl raped and murdered by a couple of drugged out fisherman on the beach at Koh Samui.

I guess at the end of the day it comes down to the stats.

But for the girl who had been raped and murdered stats don't mean shyt do they

[PeaceBlondie]

I met Paagai in a Tai-Yai bar. I've been a guest at his place (I was not the young Thai with short hair ). So we run in overlapping circles. One murder he refers to was at a fine home in an upscale moobahn, very near me - not in a low-class soi. The murders or attempted murders in Hua Hin were not in seedy bars or barrios; the dead German outside Pattaya was not gay. Bad things happen to good people.

But gay men and Texans exaggerate.

[Boksida]

I always thought Chiangmai was a safe place until one day I was in a pub and the owner and his goons stood over me because I had not realised that I had to pay for the drinking water.

[alfieconn]

i always think of chiangmai as safe, even when coming across dissapointed man u fans late at night (sorry).

my mrs is concerned about me taking late night tuk tuk rides home but i cant see the problem. any coments on this?

Have a similar story, my daughter and wife were attending a concert near central plaza finishing about 11pm and when something cropped up that i couldn't pick them up, i told them to get a taxi, problem solved !

my wife's response was that it was too dangerous to get a taxi and finally got a lift home with some friends.

This i still don't understand.

Edited October 27, 2009 by alfieconn

[Ulysses G.]

I always thought Chiangmai was a safe place until one day I was in a pub and the owner and his goons stood over me because I had not realised that I had to pay for the drinking water.

They wouldn't let me in at all - just kept pointing at some sign and shaking their heads.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[caf]

I met Paagai in a Tai-Yai bar. I've been a guest at his place (I was not the young Thai with short hair ). So we run in overlapping circles. One murder he refers to was at a fine home in an upscale moobahn, very near me - not in a low-class soi. The murders or attempted murders in Hua Hin were not in seedy bars or barrios; the dead German outside Pattaya was not gay. Bad things happen to good people.

But gay men and Texans exaggerate.

If you are saying that there are two sides to Chiangmai ( some safer than others) I agree. And that applies to other parts of thailand and overseas as well of course.

Paagai is saying that many expats do not see this other side or admit it exists. The Thai apologist, the farang in denial (?).

"Side" may not be the best word. It suggests ghettos and an apartheid type concept. I believe Paagai was not suggesting that, rather that there are parts of Chiangmai ( and Thailand in general) that many expats do not or choose not to see. The "sides" are not differences in physical location, they are conceptual differences. I think your post confirms that.

[Donnyboy]

I always thought Chiangmai was a safe place until one day I was in a pub and the owner and his goons stood over me because I had not realised that I had to pay for the drinking water.

They wouldn't let me in at all - just kept pointing at some sign and shaking their heads.

something subliminal in that?

[Ulysses G.]

They were pointing at the "No Riffraff" sign.

[piercefilmlid]

Seems every few months this topic comes round again.........

And every time I read all the, "it's so safe here" comments I wonder if I live in the same city

Sure, for the vast majority of Farang's living here, it is a reasonably safe place, especially if you don;t drink, don't ride a motosai, don't go out late at night and stick to tourist/ex-pat venues or ex-pat club meetings. Yep, you can enjoy a long and happy life here waiting for heart disease, or cancer to get you

But, step across the tracks into the Thai side of town and its a very different story. I've lived in some rough places before but here in CM, among Thais, and especially Tai Yais, I've seen more fights, nastier fights, the biggest bar brawls, more guns, knives machetes, samurai swords, sling shots, serious wounds inflicted by all of these weapons, more drugs, more people effected by drugs, more people stealling anything to feed their addictions (Drugs and gambling), more people with serious alcohol problems (lao Kaao) more people killed or maimed in motobike accidents, more people mugged for their motosai or torasap, more kids savagely beaten because of the school they attend, big gang fights, etc, etc, etc than I ever did even in the roughest places in the west.

The OP may have a sucessful "No riff raff" policy and Farang orientated bars are largely probelm free (apart from the occasional drunken Farang trying to restart the last world war), but get out into the burbs and its another world. Whilst personally I've never had a problem, I've seen many local people hospitalised from violent incidents here, not to mention a good friend violently murdered. If you think CM is really a safe city it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Anyway, "Safety First" I always go out with my infamous bodyguards and leave the fighting to them Or if the bodyguards are busy there's always the Katoeys - No one messes with them

Edit: Second thoughts, that's two friends murdered in the last year, and another acquaintance in jail for murdering someone else! And another scumbag who ought to be in jail is still happily walking the streets.....

Violently murdered? Is that worse than being non-violently murdered?

Like others, I think your post is a troll.

[PeaceBlondie]

Violently murdered? Is that worse than being non-violently murdered?

Like others, I think your post is a troll.

I believe the murder Paagai refers to was unusually brutal and vicious, up close with a knife and a blunt instrument, etc. - not a happy shooting with a warm gun. He is not a troll IMHO, but his rose coloured glasses broke.

[caf]

"Living closer to the edge", "hanging out with losers", "gutters of the city", "hanging around with murderers",

I don't see these as words used by Paayai. Would it not be more productive to debate the issues he was raising after giving some thought to what he is actually saying. But what the hel_l, this is only a forum. Can't get too serious and some guys get a kick out of exagerrating and misquoting.

The Thai and farang perspective is different. the concept of violence, how to sort out a problem, the seriousness of personal safety ...are examples

Some expats understand, but many do not get out of their "gated" environments ( whether that is their moobaan, an expats club dinner, lunch at a tourist hotel...or whatever). No problem with that, each to their own. But the fact remains they are then not in a position to comment on some of the observations made by those who do venture out, like Paagai.

Thais don't feel safe either - one of the reasons they smile when a potential conflict arises. We farang don't react in that way.

The OP gave an example of Thais wai'ing him after a show of disrespect, and said he has been here 20 odd years.

As a farang, he did the only and right thing he could do by asking the guy's age. But that was a farang response. A Thai would not have done that. The wai'ing was a cover for the embarassment he was causing. I am not criticising the OP, I am stating he did not fully understand what was happening. He did not mention, maybe because he did not realise it, but he was making the guy lose face in front of his friends. That is a no no.

I've made mistakes like that and I try not to repeat them. I still don't always succeed. By being a little more humble and trying to understand the cultural differences maybe farang responses to such situations will slowly improve and be more effective.

[caf]

Violently murdered? Is that worse than being non-violently murdered?

Like others, I think your post is a troll.

I believe the murder Paagai refers to was unusually brutal and vicious, up close with a knife and a blunt instrument, etc. - not a happy shooting with a warm gun. He is not a troll IMHO, but his rose coloured glasses broke.

I agree with you.

He does not seem to be a troll. His post is well reasoned but maybe too deep for some. The trolls are those who make a cheap point about violent and non-violent murder.

If the murder referred to is the one I believe it is, his friends are trying to get some closure over it. I would hope posters would respect that

[Ulysses G.]

I usually feel safe in Chiang Mai, but most Thai females that I know do not. What Paagai said has some validity.

Be a little careful and don't shoot the messenger.

[pjclark1]

Of course the question Chiang Mai - Is it safe? can have many answers.

An outsider with little common sense can be in danger anywhere in the world.

When I say I feel completely safe out here, it is because the way I behave does not put me at risk.

Walking about late at night in a Thai area is not a problem for most white people.

As another poster stated rival gangs direct their attention at other Thais, not me.

I have seen a drunken white person beaten unconscious with a pool cue by a very small girl after treating her in an inappropriate manner in public.

I have seen a French lady picked up and thrown out of a bar into the road by another very small Thai bar owner after saying some very rude words in a bar.

If you are white, polite and don't lose your cool in a public place then you are unlikely to ever attract unwanted danger IMHO.

If you get drunk, shout in public, grab girls, and generally behave in a boorish manner then of course you are likely to endanger yourself.

Learn a bit of self control.

Learn to recognise a Thai who is about to totally lose it.

Learn to walk away.

This will keep you safer than in almost any other country in the world.

[vagabond48]

As a farang, he did the only and right thing he could do by asking the guy's age. But that was a farang response. A Thai would not have done that. The wai'ing was a cover for the embarassment he was causing. I am not criticising the OP, I am stating he did not fully understand what was happening. He did not mention, maybe because he did not realise it, but he was making the guy lose face in front of his friends. That is a no no.

Curious, assuming this happened to a sober Thai guy, same age as OP, what would have been his response?

[orang37]

... snip ... So, what do you think? Should I continue to wander about with a care-free attitude, a song in my head and a spring in my step, or should I be looking over my shoulder and avoiding the shadows?

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Kevin,

We pray you will continue to vagabond happily, your mind full of song, and without fears, oh Fountain of Self-Publicanizing Malarkey-On-Tap

... snip ... you might want to take the comments from ... snip ... the guy who thinks he's a primate, with a little pinch of salt.

Do you not realize that you definitely are not : a Pontiff, but definitely are : a Primate ?

We have learned from this strange thread :

1. Chiang Mai has some violence : some Thais are violent.

2. Chiang Mai has some areas where violence occurs more often

3. Personal safety may have a lot to do with your lifestyle, the social and sexual risks you take, and your behavior, and who you associate with.

What remarkable lessons !

p.s. to those who find Paagai's avatar offensive : I and I find all human buns disgusting, particularly my own : the absence of a nice long coat of fur, preferably slightly reddish, and matted, is just like so weird and un-natural. but it doesn't "offend" me. I and I can't blame humans for covering up those disturbingly bald parts with clothes out of shame.

Edited October 27, 2009 by orang37

[anonymouse]

I usually feel safe in Chiang Mai, but most Thai females that I know do not. What Paagai said has some validity.

Be a little careful and don't shoot the messenger.

Ditto, I feel very safe in Chiang Mai probably the safest place I've ever lived/visited. For women and Thai's I'm not so sure.

There is a lot of vadility in what Paagai says I have seen a lot of very nasty Thai on Thai violence in Chiang Mai, only this week my wife's cousin was knifed in the liver by a drunk in a temple fair in Sanpatong. I'm not sure how this violence compares to other parts of Thailand.

Obviously what you see depends on the areas / circles you move in - Kevin's little enclave around the Night Bazaar is going to be pretty peaceful

I live in a moo baan in Doi Saket with the wife and kids, going out on occassion to the more upmarket bars in CM like Tuskers so I'm in the same boat now.

When I lived in my wife's village in Sanpatong during the war on drugs there were two murders in her village one was a drug dealer shot and left to die in the road the other a crime of passion, the local butcher shot and dumped in an irrigation canal. My next door neighbour at the time, a retired police officer [not sure of the rank] was shot in the arm by his brother another police officer, shortly before I moved to the village.

[john b good]

I always thought Chiangmai was a safe place until one day I was in a pub and the owner and his goons stood over me because I had not realised that I had to pay for the drinking water.

I think that is a gutless statement "if you are referring to my friend's establishment"

Or an attempt by a nut case at some form of humour

[john b good]

i always think of chiangmai as safe, even when coming across dissapointed man u fans late at night (sorry).

my mrs is concerned about me taking late night tuk tuk rides home but i cant see the problem. any coments on this?

Have a similar story, my daughter and wife were attending a concert near central plaza finishing about 11pm and when something cropped up that i couldn't pick them up, i told them to get a taxi, problem solved !

my wife's response was that it was too dangerous to get a taxi and finally got a lift home with some friends.

This i still don't understand.

How many women have been raped or seriously sexually assaulted by a taxi driver in the realm. Might surprise you

Not to mention the number of tourist arrivals at Don Meuang who after getting in a taxi have disappeared off the face of the planet.

[john b good]

Violently murdered? Is that worse than being non-violently murdered?

Like others, I think your post is a troll.

I believe the murder Paagai refers to was unusually brutal and vicious, up close with a knife and a blunt instrument, etc. - not a happy shooting with a warm gun. He is not a troll IMHO, but his rose coloured glasses broke.

Well said PB and I agree.

'piercefilmlid' is the one in denial here, and he's 100% wrong, wrong, wrong, but of course you get these everywhere.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

This is a first, I'm replying to a post by Orang, which must mean that I understood some of it... Anyway:

1. Chiang Mai has some violence : some Thais are violent.

2. Chiang Mai has some areas where violence occurs more often

3. Personal safety may have a lot to do with your lifestyle, the social and sexual risks you take, and your behavior, and who you associate with.

Agreed on those, however for #2 it may be more of a social circle thing than a geographical thing where some areas are 'safe' and others are 'dodgy'. My main thought reading Paagai's post: If you live with the riff raff then you have a good chance to die with the riff raff.

As for reasons to live among the riff raff... that's where the economic forces and desperation are most in one's favor.. never mind if it's a gay or straight scene.

Edited October 27, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai