Are Gay Relations Part Of The Lanna Culture?

[Caesare]

– yes it is. Not just something brought here from the West in recent decennia, but it was here long before, hundreds of years to be exact.

Don't take my word for it but read this:

Joost Schouten was the Director of the Company's [VOC] Siam factory. Amongst other things, Schouten was the author of the first scholarly work on Siam (1636) which, in 1935, was published by C.R. Boxer under the title A True Description of the Mighty Kingdoms of Japan and Siam by François Caron and Joost Schouten. But notwithstanding his talents, Schouten came to a tragic end.

In 1644 he was accused of sodomy, a practice which the dour Calvinist merchants at Batavia considered 'a filthy and vile sin', so abominable in the eyes of God that He 'had destroyed lands and cities with fire from Heaven, as an example and warning to the whole world.' Curiously, Schouten made no attempt to deny or contest the charges. He freely confessed and admitted to having started the practice in Siam. This meant that his fate was sealed. He was found guilty and was condemned to be burnt at the stake, but in recognition of his achievements and his services to the Company, the Court determined that he be spared the pain of a fiery death and that he first be strangled. After Schouten's strangulation at the stake, his body was burnt to ashes and all his property was confiscated.

More about this with regard to the Lanna kingdom and Chiang Mai one can learn from Ralph Fitch who wrote about his journey to these areas (during 1586 or early 1587):

In Pegu, and in all the Countries of Ava, Langeiannes, Siam, and the Bramas, the men weare bunches or little round balls in their privie members: some of them weare two and some three. They cut the skinne and so put them in, one into one side and another into the other side; which they doe when they bee five and twentie or thirtie yeeres old, and at their pleasure they take one or more of them out as they thinke good. When they be married the Husband is for every Child which his Wife hath, to put in one untill hee come to three, and then no more: for they say the women doe desire them. They were invented because they should not abuse the Male sexe. For in times past all those Countries were so given to that Villanie, that they were very scarce of people.

What Fitch says here is that the fangmuk (small balls that guys nowadays still insert in their private parts) were also used to prevent them to abuse the male sex – i.c. homosexual acts – a habit that was wide spread he noticed. His claim than that was the reason that so little people lived there is probably inspired by his Christian background that extremely condemned such behaviour. Homosexuality was often referred to in the 16th and 17th century as the unspoken or silent sinn, so evil that one could not even speak about it loud.

Such behaviour however was never looked negative upon in Asia. In both China and Japan it was quite normal that a man had a younger friend next to his wife and concubines. These were always relations between a mature man (in Japan often warriors or Samurai) and a young boy. As soon as the boy became man, the sexual part of the relation ceased, but the friendship remained often for the rest of their lives. The guy then went back home, often overloaded with valuable presents. Many parents were extremely happy when their son was chosen by a man. The same can be seen in ancient Greece. In Rome such relations were based more on lusts and not so much on true friendship.

I have not found anything in the literature that indicates that these kind of relations as seen in Japan and China were common in Thailand too. However referring to both Joost Schouten and Ralph Fitch it is obvious that gay relations in one form or another were common practise here and that already more than 400 years ago!

[Ijustwannateach]

The topic of the historicality of homosexuality in Thailand or part of Thailand is eminently welcome, but this thread is not going to be mixed up with a political discussion topic. Keep the partisan politics in the general or news forums, please. There was a previous topic on the subject of gay oppression by political groups in Chiang Mai; you are welcome to find that topic (probably still in the first two pages of the gay subforum topic list) and post your topical gay-related political opinion there.

[Paagai]

Well, I'm disapointed; from the title I thought this thread was going to be about incest Sweet brotherly love and all that.

Anyway, I don't see why we need a history lesson to argue this point, or any political groups providing counter arguments.

If you get away from the urban centres like Chiang Mai, where thai gay culture has clearly been influenced by western culture/values, and head out into the more rural parts of the Lanna Kingdom, you maybe suprised by the significant number of openly gay people you meet. Generally, they are all happily integrated into their communities with almost never any hint of prejudice. For me, there is no doubt wahtsoever about the gayness of Lanna culture"

The concern I believe some have is the way that Gayness is now manifesting itself due to outside influences.