English Writing Skills

[Harcourt]

It's funny how many mistakes are made here by native speakers. As Ulysses G said or suggested: if you insist upon correcting another poster's post, you'd better make a perfect post; otherwise you'll be mercilessly corrected.

That's true, but in my case being an intelligent member, obviously I have a good command of the English language anyway.

But of course we all make errors, so I always type my posts in Microsoft word that has an excellent spell checker and thesaurus, before I publish the text into a post.

I do try and make allowances for the American posters, who have invented they're own version of the English dictionary.

Using good punctuation, grammar and correct spelling gives a post and it`s author much more credibility.

Ironic.

[Harcourt]

Furthermore, "....but in my case being an intelligent member, obviously I have a good command of the English language anyway. ...." , would have employed correct grammar if the sentence transposed the subject "I" with "obviously", ie, "In my case...., I obviously....".

[IanForbes]

I for one will hold my hand up about bad English and spelling , I am Dyslexic, I have been the butt of many jokes, and disbelievers, I have a form of word blindness, also i say things back to front some times without thinking , Mainly when i am tired, But it will not stop me having an opinion, Wether right or wrong. The good thing is though i have a photographic memory for faces and places, take me there once and i will remember ,Show me a face and i never forget, the bad side is i cannot remember names , although i can remember places and how to get there , I know many songs from the last fifty years nearly word for word . Yet i cannot spell ,after 50years i do not take any criticism to heart. (spell cheaker used)

Very good point, Thongkorn. I'm also a bit dyslexic... even when typing. The correct thought process is there but will get mixed up in transit. I will often get two letters back to front when typing and I have to correct myself constantly.

And, when speaking I'll sometimes just draw a big blank and have to change the subject. I've learned to overcome it, but it has taken a lot of work.

For example, I've said... "What's your names dog?" instead of saying "What's the name of your dog?"

One thing about it, though, is having gone through all the teasing as a youngster I've become far more tolerant of other people's problems.

And, there is another problem on this particular forum. It does not lend itself to first using "Word" and then cutting and pasting into a topic. The fonts and spacing comes out much different.

[Harcourt]

I was taught to never begin a sentence with "And". But then, I am not highly educated, so I could be wrong.

[Osmosis]

Why is it that most posts on Thaivisa seem to end up with members ripping into other posters about the poor standard of writing and grammar?

Sorry OnNut, I couldn't resist

In answer to your question though, I think that for a lot of people, having good writing and grammar is a bit like making sure you are dressed nicely. Correct spelling and grammar is making sure you've tucked in your shirt. If you met a professional and they weren't dressed properly, you might think that the quality of their work isn't as good as somebody who is dressed nicely. Sure it's superficial, but I think a lot of people think that way.

Having said that, this is an international forum with many people who do not speak english as a first language, and given the purpose of the forum isn't to teach english, it seems pretty stupid to me to waste one's time correcting people.

One of the earlier writers on netiquette said the following:

Q: I cant spell worth a dam. I hope your going too tell me what to do?

A: Don't worry about how your articles look. Remember it's the message that counts, not the way it's presented. Ignore the fact that sloppy spelling in a purely written forum sends out the same silent messages that soiled clothing would when addressing an audience.

Q: Another poster can't spell worth a dam_n. What should I post?

A: Post a followup pointing out all the original author's spelling and grammar mistakes. You were almost certainly the only one to notice them, genius that you are, so not only will others be intrigued at your spelling flame, but they'll get to read such fine entertainments rather than any actual addressing of the facts or issues in the message.

[GungaDin]

I was taught to never begin a sentence with "And". But then, I am not highly educated, so I could be wrong.

You are correct,but, I couldn't resist......

I particularly like FrenchFarang & Ray23's sigs.

[bifftastic]

Why is it that most posts on Thaivisa seem to end up with members ripping into other posters about the poor standard writing and grammar?

Do the ones who do the ripping have nothing better to do?

My English isn't perfect, I know that and do not need to be told.

There are many non native English speakers here so maybe we should cut them some slack.

As can be seen above, the OP asked why people rip into others about writing standards and grammer.

Many replies, rather than answering the question posed, saw this thread as an oportunity to talk about they're own personal dislikes in other posters language. They are the loosers.

may I please take this oportunity to say how much of a looser i am?

Thank you

[Ulysses G.]

I just asked the same of a 14,000 post member, with a 'happy smile' (Ulysses. G) about his habit of criticizing members' English mistakes.

I have already answered your question in this thread. I only point out the English mistakes of posters who have put someone else down for their English skills or claim to be much more intelligent than other members. I think that is fair.

[IanForbes]

I was taught to never begin a sentence with "And". But then, I am not highly educated, so I could be wrong.

Most of the time you would be correct. But, there are situations where starting a sentence or paragraph with "And" is correct. It is done for emphasis, while at the same time smoothing the transition. A sentence on its own carries more "weight" than just adding more information to a sentence using "and". The same is true with the word "but".

I also capitalize words in the middle of a sentence when I'm writing on the internet, but don't do it for magazines. I do it for emphasis as I would when I am speaking.

[Lite Beer]

A post discussing moderation deleted.

[bkkjames]

I was taught to never begin a sentence with "And". But then, I am not highly educated, so I could be wrong.

Most of the time you would be correct. But, there are situations where starting a sentence or paragraph with "And" is correct. It is done for emphasis, while at the same time smoothing the transition. A sentence on its own carries more "weight" than just adding more information to a sentence using "and". The same is true with the word "but".

I also capitalize words in the middle of a sentence when I'm writing on the internet, but don't do it for magazines. I do it for emphasis as I would when I am speaking.

And to think Ian is only a handsome man.

[PeaceBlondie]

It's funny how many mistakes are made here by native speakers. As Ulysses G said or suggested: if you insist upon correcting another poster's post, you'd better make a perfect post; otherwise you'll be mercilessly corrected.

That’s true, but in my case being an intelligent member, obviously I have a good command of the English language anyway.

But of course we all make errors, so I always type my posts in Microsoft word that has an excellent spell checker and thesaurus, before I publish the text into a post.

I do try and make allowances for the American posters, who have invented they’re own version of the English dictionary.

Using good punctuation, grammar and correct spelling gives a post and it`s author much more credibility.

Maybe Harcourt caught this already, but the final sentence uses the contraction for it is when the possessive pronoun its is correct. For that mistake, or for a they're/their/there or to/too/two mistake, our 11th grade English teacher would give a zero on a long essay. Firefox has spell-check, but it's American. I make allowances for the Queen of England's use of the language, on which the British lost the copyright 200 years ago.

[Beacher]

As a professional writer, I can't hold it against someone who can't write properly, but who might be a very good mechanic,(get rid of this one) or some other trade. I'm sure no mechanic, and they could laugh at what I don't know.

There are a few suggestions I could make that might help others, though. On a computer screen, it is much easier to read if there are no more than two or three sentences in a paragraph. Although it's quite easy to read a book of text, for some reason it's hard to read a whole bunch of sentences strung together without any separation on a computer screen... even if it IS a proper paragraph.

One of the most common mistakes I see are the words "loose" and "lose". Although the two words have entirely different meanings, they are often used in place of each other and in the wrong context. It doesn't really matter, though, because we know what the writer means in any case.

And, I often throw in commas where they aren't really needed if it helps the reader.

Sorry, but I can't resist. LOL

As a professional writer, you should look a little closer at your use of commas. When sentences begin with a prepositional phrase (i.e. As a professional writer) or a subordinating conjuction, a comma is required. They are also needed in compund sentences but not needed for compound verbs or compliments.

I've taken the liberty of adding bolded commas in your post where they belong.

I doubt that you'll appreciate my critique of your post, but as I said in the beginning, I just couldn't resist.

[GungaDin]

It's funny how many mistakes are made here by native speakers. As Ulysses G said or suggested: if you insist upon correcting another poster's post, you'd better make a perfect post; otherwise you'll be mercilessly corrected.

That's true, but in my case being an intelligent member, obviously I have a good command of the English language anyway.

But of course we all make errors, so I always type my posts in Microsoft word that has an excellent spell checker and thesaurus, before I publish the text into a post.

I do try and make allowances for the American posters, who have invented they're own version of the English dictionary.

Using good punctuation, grammar and correct spelling gives a post and it`s author much more credibility.

Maybe Harcourt caught this already, but the final sentence uses the contraction for it is when the possessive pronoun its is correct. For that mistake, or for a they're/their/there or to/too/two mistake, our 11th grade English teacher would give a zero on a long essay. Firefox has spell-check, but it's American. I make allowances for the Queen of England's use of the language, on which the British lost the copyright 200 years ago.

And it's been buggered up ever since!

(as in it has)

[skybluestu]

Why is it that most posts on Thaivisa seem to end up with members ripping into other posters about the poor standard writing and grammar?

Do the ones who do the ripping have nothing better to do?

My English isn't perfect, I know that and do not need to be told.

There are many non native English speakers here so maybe we should cut them some slack.

My opinion....Believe there are lot of "English" teachers on TV and they are so insecure that they have to exhibit their supposed superior knowlege of the English language by correcting both the grammatical and spelling mistakes of TV posters..

As regards non-native, or even native speakers, if the intent of the persons post is understood, who gives a sh*t about the grammer and spelling...they are communicating effectively..so yes lets give the non-native, persons, and persons from, Yorkshire, Newcastle, Birmingham, Scotland and Wales a bit of slack when using written English as a form of communication..

The only time I have ever seen grammatical or spelling mistakes corrected or commented on is in the teaching forum, usually when someone has enquired about teaching English here but it's obvious from their post that their English is poor and that they should perhaps think again. I don't think there's anything wrong with this as Thai kids deserve better than to be taught by someone who only wants to come and teach here for a visa or so that they have enough $ for beers & girls, not because they want to teach and especially if they don't have the ability to teach. But as far as correcting, commenting etc on posts in other forums re the English used then who cares?

[Kitsch22]

"Most" threads do not end up that way but a few do. When I do it, the act is not so much "ripping" as the selfless performance of a valuable public service. It is akin to picking up and handing back an item of litter with a cheerful, "You seem to have dropped this." The way in which one's help is received often furnishes a window on the character of the recipent.

Very good point and well written. Do you by chance, teach or write yourself?

Thank you. Sadly, I lack the patience that is an essential quality in a good and effective teacher and a competent writer should show sufficient attention to detail that he would not allow a misspelling of "recipient" to appear in a public utterance.

There are very smooth ways of rapping someone's knuckles without calling them an arsehol_e.

Just so. The use of a touch of subtlety can make one appear to be a nicer person than one really is.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Kitsch22

[IanForbes]

As a professional writer, I can't hold it against someone who can't write properly, but who might be a very good mechanic,(get rid of this one) or some other trade. I'm sure no mechanic, and they could laugh at what I don't know.

There are a few suggestions I could make that might help others, though. On a computer screen, it is much easier to read if there are no more than two or three sentences in a paragraph. Although it's quite easy to read a book of text, for some reason it's hard to read a whole bunch of sentences strung together without any separation on a computer screen... even if it IS a proper paragraph.

One of the most common mistakes I see are the words "loose" and "lose". Although the two words have entirely different meanings, they are often used in place of each other and in the wrong context. It doesn't really matter, though, because we know what the writer means in any case.

And, I often throw in commas where they aren't really needed if it helps the reader.

Sorry, but I can't resist. LOL

As a professional writer, you should look a little closer at your use of commas. When sentences begin with a prepositional phrase (i.e. As a professional writer) or a subordinating conjuction, a comma is required. They are also needed in compund sentences but not needed for compound verbs or compliments.

I've taken the liberty of adding bolded commas in your post where they belong.

I doubt that you'll appreciate my critique of your post, but as I said in the beginning, I just couldn't resist.

Au contraire. I DO appreciate a critique... even on the occasion where the critic might be wrong. You were helpful in placing commas in the correct place. Thank you. This discussion has been informative and helpful. And, surprisingly, with few flames.

I usually trust the editors to do the final editing for proper pronunciation and the occasional spelling mistake. Sometimes even they get it wrong.

[sassienie]

I was taught to never begin a sentence with "And". But then, I am not highly educated, so I could be wrong.

All that you say is absolutely correct.

It soon becomes obvious when reading your posts.

[MarkBKK]

As a professional writer, I can't hold it against someone who can't write properly, but who might be a very good mechanic,(get rid of this one) or some other trade. I'm sure no mechanic, and they could laugh at what I don't know.

There are a few suggestions I could make that might help others, though. On a computer screen, it is much easier to read if there are no more than two or three sentences in a paragraph. Although it's quite easy to read a book of text, for some reason it's hard to read a whole bunch of sentences strung together without any separation on a computer screen... even if it IS a proper paragraph.

One of the most common mistakes I see are the words "loose" and "lose". Although the two words have entirely different meanings, they are often used in place of each other and in the wrong context. It doesn't really matter, though, because we know what the writer means in any case.

And, I often throw in commas where they aren't really needed if it helps the reader.

Sorry, but I can't resist. LOL

As a professional writer, you should look a little closer at your use of commas. When sentences begin with a prepositional phrase (i.e. As a professional writer) or a subordinating conjuction, a comma is required. They are also needed in compund sentences but not needed for compound verbs or compliments.

I've taken the liberty of adding bolded commas in your post where they belong.

I doubt that you'll appreciate my critique of your post, but as I said in the beginning, I just couldn't resist.

Sorry, but what are ''compund sentences''?

[Ulysses G.]

Touche'!

Edited October 29, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[david96]

As a professional writer I can't hold it against someone who can't write properly, but who might be a very good mechanic, or some other trade. I'm sure no mechanic and they could laugh at what I don't know.

There are a few suggestions I could make that might help others, though. On a computer screen it is much easier to read if there are no more than two or three sentences in a paragraph. Although it's quite easy to read a book of text, for some reason it's hard to read a whole bunch of sentences strung together without any separation on a computer screen... even if it IS a proper paragraph.

One of the most common mistakes I see are the words "loose" and "lose". Although the two words have entirely different meanings they are often used in place of each other and in the wrong context. It doesn't really matter, though, because we know what the writer means in any case.

And, I often throw in commas where they aren't really needed if it helps the reader.

One would agree with the use of commas, they represent a pause. When you read or speak you pause for a moment after several words. That pause is the comma.

[PeaceBlondie]

The pedants are discouraged in the Teaching Forum. We had a general rule against it before the entire forum did. English teachers should know that forum posts are informal.

[IanForbes]

One would agree with the use of commas, they represent a pause. When you read or speak you pause for a moment after several words. That pause is the comma.

Ifyoutakeabigbreathofairandtalkreallyfastsometimesyoucangetawholesentencefinishe

dbeforebreathingagain.

[highchol]

this ones been kicking around for a few years.....

It doesn't matter what order letters are in a word...?

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

[IanForbes]

this ones been kicking around for a few years.....

It doesn't matter what order letters are in a word...?

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Yes, I've seen it before, and ones similar.

That only works for the English language. It certainly wouldn't work for an Asian language.

[Beacher]

As a professional writer, I can't hold it against someone who can't write properly, but who might be a very good mechanic,(get rid of this one) or some other trade. I'm sure no mechanic, and they could laugh at what I don't know.

There are a few suggestions I could make that might help others, though. On a computer screen, it is much easier to read if there are no more than two or three sentences in a paragraph. Although it's quite easy to read a book of text, for some reason it's hard to read a whole bunch of sentences strung together without any separation on a computer screen... even if it IS a proper paragraph.

One of the most common mistakes I see are the words "loose" and "lose". Although the two words have entirely different meanings, they are often used in place of each other and in the wrong context. It doesn't really matter, though, because we know what the writer means in any case.

And, I often throw in commas where they aren't really needed if it helps the reader.

Sorry, but I can't resist. LOL

As a professional writer, you should look a little closer at your use of commas. When sentences begin with a prepositional phrase (i.e. As a professional writer) or a subordinating conjunction, a comma is required. They are also needed in compund sentences but not needed for compound verbs or compliments.

I've taken the liberty of adding bolded commas in your post where they belong.

I doubt that you'll appreciate my critique of your post, but as I said in the beginning, I just couldn't resist.

Sorry, but what are ''compund sentences''?

LOL - I never claimed that I could spell, but I'm pretty sure about my use of correct grammar.

BTW, you'll notice that I gave my reply using a compound sentence.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Beacher

[geriatrickid]

As a professional writer I can't hold it against someone who can't write properly, but who might be a very good mechanic, or some other trade.

I'm sure no mechanic and they could laugh at what I don't know.

Professional writer?

Please review your second line.

[Harcourt]

I was taught to never begin a sentence with "And". But then, I am not highly educated, so I could be wrong.

All that you say is absolutely correct.

It soon becomes obvious when reading your posts.

I would relish the opportunity to learn. Please, PLEASE, point out to me everything that makes my lack of high education obvious.

Were you slightly peeved that I, uneducated Harcourt, humourously, picked up on the ironies of your post in which you proclaimed your intelligence and thus mastery of English, whilst also displaying a decided lack of mastery of the same?

Remember, there is a significant difference between "educated" and "intelligent".

I wait with great anticipation for your wise comments and for you to point out all the evidence of my ignorance.

Please do not read any sarcasm in my words.

Thanks in advance.

[Kitsch22]

The pedants are discouraged in the Teaching Forum. We had a general rule against it before the entire forum did. English teachers should know that forum posts are informal.

Do you know and/or understand and/or endorse the rationale for that approach? These are public postings. When you contribute, you advertise yourself to the world. There is no "formal"/"informal" dichotomy.

Of course one recognizes that contributions manually and sometimes hurriedly typed may contain errors arising from hitting a key adjacent to that intended, omission of the occasional letter, accidental double letters and so forth. They represent little more than evidence that there has been inadequate proof-reading.

On the other hand, the plethora of greengrocers' apostrophes and abominations such as "I should of been" instead of "I should have been" are a disgrace in a teaching forum and where such an error is perpetrated by a supposed teacher of the English language it is, I am afraid, an indication of incompetence.

I recall a particular post which appeared in the Teaching in Thailand Forum, apparently put up by an English language teacher which contained the following gem: "I think that even the spelling nazi's can appreciate this." Having read it many times I am still uncertain whether to salute a brilliant use of irony or alternatively to breathe a sigh of despair mixed with sympathy for the poster's students.

[IanForbes]

We are having fun tonight, aren't we?

I take all the teasing in good spirits. Maybe I should take it WITH spirits and then I wouldn't know what to reply. If a guy don't ad a few misteaks now and then u'll never haf sumthing to complain about.