Annual Transvestite Pageant Wows Thailand

[chiangdan]

One of the biggest scratch head conundrums for me is a gay Thai guy I know whose "wife" is a post-op tranny. I still can't figure out if that makes him heterosexual.

They are still both homosexual. If you put porche badges on your toyota that does not make it a porche it is still a toyota.

[TAWP]

One of the biggest scratch head conundrums for me is a gay Thai guy I know whose "wife" is a post-op tranny. I still can't figure out if that makes him heterosexual.

They are still both homosexual. If you put porche badges on your toyota that does not make it a porche it is still a toyota.

So if a person is born with both gender and the parents decide on a elective corrective surgery soon after birth, the person is still of both gender and no-matter what the person does, he or she is gay according to you?

And I think there seems to be some misunderstanding what Transexual is...it is a person that mentally feel like they are born in the wrong body. Imagine you are the character of the old 80ides movie where the male chauvinistic male wakes up in a womans body...and that person is you...would you not to everything in your power to correct that?

[neverdie]

One of the biggest scratch head conundrums for me is a gay Thai guy I know whose "wife" is a post-op tranny. I still can't figure out if that makes him heterosexual.

They are still both homosexual. If you put porche badges on your toyota that does not make it a porche it is still a toyota.

Ignoring your ignorance, I only have one question for you.

Why would you bother wrecking a good toyota by sticking porche badges on it?

[animatic]

One of the biggest scratch head conundrums for me is a gay Thai guy I know whose "wife" is a post-op tranny. I still can't figure out if that makes him heterosexual.

They are still both homosexual. If you put porche badges on your toyota that does not make it a porche it is still a toyota.

On the other hand you can take a Porche drive train, suspension, gauges, and seats

put them in a Volkswagon Bug, and sure as hel_l that car will drive, handle and sound,

like a bleeding Porche. Most parts are drop in too.

So it's a question of building the car you really wanted to begin with.

And that is the case, regardless of the scared, or bigoted, or ABSOLUTELY sure about these people.

They go dealt a circumstance, and some few absolutely can't go on with the staus quo of their genital makeup.

The idea that ALL katoeys are making decisions to become women and it is a choice they can make or not.

Some say they are just homosexuals, may others, scientists included, say they are women with miss assigned bodies.

Why they have had a different prenatal or post natal development cycle is in diSput, but scans and chemical testing

DO indicate that;

they are not the same as either born MEN, nor born WOMEN, but are closer to WOMEN in how their minds function,

and there is nothing the straightest bunch of 'normal people' can do to make this NOT SO.

If we all were alike 100% we would be one person 3 billion times and nothing would ever get done...

Viva la diversity of life, and it's oddities included. From hence comes my tolerance of most all people...

except bigots and intolerant types....

Golden rule, live and let live, cast not the first stone, while living in glass houses etc.

[fridgemagnet]

it's thanks to the bigots, etc. that I can enjoy ladyboys, beautiful way beyond my wildest dreams.

If all were sweetness and light, I would be back to not so good looking girlfriends.

So I'm happy the world has so many men that are insecure in their own sexuality.

Edited November 3, 2009 by fridgemagnet

[brahmburgers]

To other posters with bigoted minds in posts above: In any way, the reason they do this is not from TV, commercials or seeing pretty girls get fancy jewelry too much.

I don't agree. Actually, neither of us can 'go inside' the brains of young boys who steer in that direction. Even if you yourself were one of those boys, that would be but one experience and not necessarily indicative of the group.

Young people are open to influence, can we agree on that? And there are major influences in growing up in Thailand which emulate/aggrandize katoy (the OP underlines that concept). It goes hand in hand with the extreme vanity involved with growing up in Thailand, arguably one the most vanity crazed places in Asia. Leaf through any teen or fashion mag, and at least half the ads will be whitening cream, and the other half will be pure vanity products. Turn on Thai TV, and you've got a 50% chance of seeing a katoy, either being overly dramatic or trying to be funny.

One of the strongest lures to becoming katoy, for young boys, is the popularity factor which I mentioned in an earlier post. I saw it clear as day when I was a lecturer at a U. The same dynamic played out in each of my 7 classes. There were always a handful of katoy (about 1/5 of the boys, aged 18 to 21), and each effeminate boy would elicit grins, laughter and smiles from the real girls (and half the real boys) whenever he/she made any comment on anything. Imagine a regular boy who had nearly no chance of hanging with the prettiest sassiest girls in class. Then take that same boy as being super effeminate. Pow! All of a sudden the coolest chicks don't mind hanging out with him. For awhile, he's the life of the party. Chicks also go ga ga for puppies, stuffed toys, and blond babies, but that's off on a tangent.

It's also known, at and around every Thai U, that katoy are the go-between agents when a girl student wants to earn cash selling her body. It's rare when there's not a katoy go-between.

Perhaps the biggest factor in all this is the mental health factor. I don't think anyone familiar with katoy can say they don't have serious doubts about their role in life. I'm not talking about when they're out on the sidewalk being loud and sassy, I'm talking about when they're in their private moments, perhaps thinking about what a grandparent or uncle said - or perhaps wondering about marriage, making a family. Having a large % of boys become katoy is a mental health issue for Thailand. Thais in general can deny there's a problem, but it's there and gaining momentum week by week.

[fridgemagnet]

I always wanted to get close to beautiful girls, BUT I never wanted to be <deleted>@ked by a man because of it.

And mental health problem - well your thinking seems more of a mental health issue to me.

[TAWP]

I'm just happy brahmburgers isn't in any position to have any influence, and I'll leave it at that.

[brahmburgers]

Sorry to post twice in a row, and rant onward, but I wanted to add a personal experience.

This relates the the concept that just about any guy can act feminine if he so chooses. To take it a step further, if that guy finds it's advantageous to act feminine (as many katoy do) ...then it reinforces that role. After all, being katoy is very much a role playing gig, especially when it's starting out in a young boy. The longer one plays the role, the more seamless it is, and easier to maintain.

Here's the little story: When I was 17, I played host to a group of black guys from inner city Washington DC. It was part of a high school student exchange program. When it came my turn to host, as a white dude in the suburbs, I borrowed my mother's Mustang convertible and went around picked up the half dozen black guys and we all went out to a night of partying. I don't know what triggered it that night, but at one particularly party, I became ultra feminine. I was the life of the party, and everyone was having a hoot. I was too cool. I could point a cue stick at any one of the black guys and make a demand, and he would do whatever I directed. I would tell everyone to get in the car, and we'd go to the next party and whoop it up, ad nauseum. Incidentally, I was normally a v. shy hetero.

It only happened that once, but it showed how I could act the part of a sassy demanding dame if I so chose. It also showed me how much attention and adulation it elicited (particularly in a party atmosphere). I could have retained that role, and who knows where my life would have led from there?

The point here is; becoming katoy is not always a story of 'female living in a male's body' - which is designed to elicit sympathy and so on. It could often be a case of a boy finding that acting effeminately is the fast track to popularity and, in the case of the katoy contest mentioned in the OP; money, admiration, and a semblance of fame.

Just after posting, I noticed TAWP mention, "I'm just happy brahmburgers isn't in any position to have any influence, and I'll leave it at that."

Go ahead, TAWP. If you have some retort to my specific allegations, you're welcome to express yourself.

BTW, who does 'have influence' in such matters? I assume you're referring to influence on a large social level. If you're going to say only katoy are qualified to comment on katoyness, then that's a cop-out. It's like saying only soldiers can comment on warfare. I call it as I see it, and I know inherently in this topic, there's a large segment of the population which are males wishing they were female, and those folks are extremely, I mean e-x-t-r-e-m-e-l-y sensitive/defensive about any comments on their condition. Indeed, the first thing they'll want to know (about whomever is making a comment) is whether that person is himself/herself a katoy.

Not much different than black guys calling each other 'nigger' but then a white guy comes along and joins in on the lingo, and uses the word .....all is awkward silence - or worse. It wouldn't happen as readily in a dark room.

Edited November 3, 2009 by brahmburgers

[animatic]

Certainly the boy band pop star world here aggrandizes feminine men,

and far to many young thai men fall into that pretty boy trap.

But I venture very few of those become katoey from role playing.

Some may do it because it is the fastest route to feeding the family back home.

Similarly to many of the bargirls, not for upwardly mobile phones and clothes,

but practical poverty alleviation reasons.

Those are the non-implant, transvestite-working-girl ones.

Getting the job done with limited skills and a pretty face.

But then having the option to revert back to male identity afterwards.

Going the full route is a much deeper psycho-chemical compunction.

And the medical evidence backs that.

[dude007]

THOSE ARE WHAT??

Sponsored by a famous silicone factory... Phew!!!

[brahmburgers]

Here's another true story:

right out of high school, I bumped in to a friend who took me downtown to see a movie about gays. He was one of the most awkward kids I'd ever known, and was always being bullied. He'd always been as testosteroned out as any other guys, talking lewdly about seducing girls, the regular stuff of boys growing up.

However, he was at a stage in his life where he was actively trying to become gay. I know there are differences, mostly semantic, between being 'gay' and being a transvestite or transgender, but there's a point to this story. This guy was trying to be gay because the gay crowd was the most fun crowd for him to join at that time. Maybe he became cross-dresser, transgender later in life, I don't know, I wasn't in touch with him after that time we went to the movies. There were other indications of him wanting to join the gay crowd, but I won't get in to it in this post.

Humans have an incredible ability to adapt. Imagine there was a motorcycle group with only tough guys as members. It was a popular group, and the prettiest girls were groupies for it. A frail boy might do all he could to act tough, in order to join the group. Furthermore, once he joined, he would perfect the 'tough guy act' to burnish his position in the group. Actors do it for money, yet we're all actors to some degree.

I'm not saying all typecast people are actors, but I am saying it's not difficult for some players to assume roles in order to try and fit with a crowd they're drawn to.

It even applies to the Saxena thing. When Saxena was in his heyday, he was beaming and acting the part of the savvy investor who knew all sorts of crafty shortcuts to milking big money from BBC bank. Now that he's holed up, he acts like a physical/mental invalid who can't even get around in a wheelchair - he now needs to be carried in prone position, sporting a permanent scowl on his face.

[learn4life]

That is what I mean by a normal person. Maybe one day someone will invent a cure for them after all it is just an illness.

I'm afraid they will never invent a cure for 'normal people'... but that doesn't mean we can't start a support group for those who believe that men should be men, women should be women, and three-leged dogs should be three-legged dogs. Let's make it a CLUB, in fact - no women allowed! Just us manly men doing manly things in our very own special manly space. However, we might allow some feminine elements to maintain contrast and reinforce gender roles, such as music by Judy Garland (a proper girlie-girl) or Edith Piaf (to show we're international). The club could have a fitness centre for building our manly muscles and a sauna for manly relaxation. Of course there would be a pub for social intercourse, where we would scoff at all those nancy-boys hanging out with the wives and girlfriends, while we slap one another on the backside in a jocular way like traditional rugged chaps (ooh, and speaking of chaps, I think leather chaps should be the dress code, don't you? It would really facilitate the backside slapping.). And if those three-legged dogs should fall over, it won't be for want of a leg, but because they are laughing so hard. Now that's a MANLY solution for a NORMAL PERSON! RAWWRR!!! So how about it?

Edited November 4, 2009 by learn4life

[Rumfoord]

These girls get the best of both worlds....all the stuff that goes along with being a beauty queen and they can still stand up and take a slash.....awesome!

They are most likely all post-ops, so no they don't stand up to pee and for the untrained eye they look as complete women, even naked...

TAWP, I respect you level of Thailand experience and of course if you've had the chance to view some of these beauties naked, well errr, up to you. However, your assumption that most of these Ladyboys are post-ops, is mostly incorrect. Sure, some of them are post-op, but the majority or far more than half of them are pre-op. How do I know, as I have previously stated, I have a couple of Katoeys in the extended family & I have been fortunate enough to meet some of their friends that were on the beauty pagent run, I live in the captial of the Katoey and many locals here have been finalist in that competition, amoungst the many competition for katoey that go on around thailand. I cant speak for this year, but the previous two years, the majority of those ladyboy were pre-op LB.

hi, kudos to your level of tolerance, understanding and acceptance of that gender issue.

but i would like to ad that a term like pre-op is incorrect or not the best choice of words to descibe it. the prefix pre- indicates a not ready yet, not done yet and sets the full surgically modfied body as the norm.

but there are lot of gender bender, 'katoeys or ladyboys, (or whatever term is used) that don't have that OP, and it is not a question of time. or not done yet, but they will never do it. they don't want to become a full woman, but something in between those traditional gender roles. the third gender, in the first line not- men how far they go down the road to become a woman is another issue.

maybe post-op vs. non-op would be the better choice of words. or full-op vs. non-op.

[Rumfoord]

As for contests. What if they had a contest for who was the most attractive poodle look-alike? If the prize money and glamor were enticing enough, hundreds, maybe thousands of Thais would get the surgery, hair transplants, (and hormones?) for the make-over.

guess what is the price you have won with your line above?

[Geekfreaklover]

As Ray would say..

Well I'm not the world's most physical guy

But when she squeezed me tight she nearly broke my spine

Oh my Lola lo-lo-lo-lo Lola

Well I'm not dumb but I can't understand

Why she walked like a woman and talked like a man

Oh my Lola lo-lo-lo-lo Lola lo-lo-lo-lo Lola

[TAWP]

Rumfoord>> You are correct that there might be those that never wish to do any operations to fully alter their gender. I however don't know anyone that don't wish to have or wished they could had. So I cannot give any number regarding ratio...do you know?

[animatic]

Getting tits is an OP, same with losing the Adams Apple,

and all other invasive procedures.

Pre-Op TS vs Post-Op TS is solely used for the penis to vagina operation.

Most do not go this final step, but some feel no other choice and do it.

[chiangdan]

One of the biggest scratch head conundrums for me is a gay Thai guy I know whose "wife" is a post-op tranny. I still can't figure out if that makes him heterosexual.

They are still both homosexual. If you put porche badges on your toyota that does not make it a porche it is still a toyota.

On the other hand you can take a Porche drive train, suspension, gauges, and seats

put them in a Volkswagon Bug, and sure as hel_l that car will drive, handle and sound,

like a bleeding Porche. Most parts are drop in too.

So it's a question of building the car you really wanted to begin with.

And that is the case, regardless of the scared, or bigoted, or ABSOLUTELY sure about these people.

They go dealt a circumstance, and some few absolutely can't go on with the staus quo of their genital makeup.

The idea that ALL katoeys are making decisions to become women and it is a choice they can make or not.

Some say they are just homosexuals, may others, scientists included, say they are women with miss assigned bodies.

Why they have had a different prenatal or post natal development cycle is in diSput, but scans and chemical testing

DO indicate that;

they are not the same as either born MEN, nor born WOMEN, but are closer to WOMEN in how their minds function,

and there is nothing the straightest bunch of 'normal people' can do to make this NOT SO.

If we all were alike 100% we would be one person 3 billion times and nothing would ever get done...

Viva la diversity of life, and it's oddities included. From hence comes my tolerance of most all people...

except bigots and intolerant types....

Golden rule, live and let live, cast not the first stone, while living in glass houses etc.

I get the impression that you think I am anti gay, lesbian or Ladyboy. `Please nothing could be further from the truth, I am not. From your defensive stance I take it that you are a ladyboy and I say good on you. If you read my previous post on this I said "everyone unto thier own.

The best man at my wedding was a raving homosexual and his nickname is homer whch he chose himself and we are the best of mates. So if I have homo / lesbian friends and this makes me a bigot then so be it to the uneducated dickwits....

big·otplay_w2("B0242400") (bgt) n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I guess your feelings differ from mine so that means you fit the bill of a bigot.....

Edited November 4, 2009 by chiangdan

[chiangdan]

That is what I mean by a normal person. Maybe one day someone will invent a cure for them after all it is just an illness.

I'm afraid they will never invent a cure for 'normal people'... but that doesn't mean we can't start a support group for those who believe that men should be men, women should be women, and three-leged dogs should be three-legged dogs. Let's make it a CLUB, in fact - no women allowed! Just us manly men doing manly things in our very own special manly space. However, we might allow some feminine elements to maintain contrast and reinforce gender roles, such as music by Judy Garland (a proper girlie-girl) or Edith Piaf (to show we're international). The club could have a fitness centre for building our manly muscles and a sauna for manly relaxation. Of course there would be a pub for social intercourse, where we would scoff at all those nancy-boys hanging out with the wives and girlfriends, while we slap one another on the backside in a jocular way like traditional rugged chaps (ooh, and speaking of chaps, I think leather chaps should be the dress code, don't you? It would really facilitate the backside slapping.). And if those three-legged dogs should fall over, it won't be for want of a leg, but because they are laughing so hard. Now that's a MANLY solution for a NORMAL PERSON! RAWWRR!!! So how about it?

Sorry that would not be politically correct to not allow a woman to be part of a mans club. Then again it would not be politcaly correct if the woman was a muslim to mix in a mans club and then if one man or woman in the club was a Jew. Sorry can never have a man's club.

[chiangdan]

I always wanted to get close to beautiful girls, BUT I never wanted to be <deleted>@ked by a man because of it.

And mental health problem - well your thinking seems more of a mental health issue to me.

Well if you choose a lady boy that is excatly what you are going to get.

[brahmburgers]

Looks like this topic has gone flaccid.

The pole disappeared, so the flag drooped and fell to the ground.

Someone lost his marbles, then found them again, rolling around the bathroom drain.

Don't let your karma run over your dogma while he's eating a hot dog.

He was going to be a grease monkey, until he got tired of reaming cylinders for a living.

[Rumfoord]

Rumfoord>> You are correct that there might be those that never wish to do any operations to fully alter their gender. I however don't know anyone that don't wish to have or wished they could had. So I cannot give any number regarding ratio...do you know?

it isn't so easy explainable with some statistics.

i have an approach that is based on the theories that came from the field of gender studies and sees gender as social construct. in short, my point is that it isn't about to become a woman. and that the post-op thingy isn't the norm or a 'standard'. that is just another very narrow social construtions, categories that not explain the inbetweens and the whole thing.

it would take to much time to explain it in full length, particularly i don't know your background, or your approach on this.

changes are high that we talk about the same subject in a different "language" (and both can be reasonable) using the same term, but having a different definition for it (and both can be reasonable).

awhile ago there was in the general forum a discussion about the third gender. you can read it here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Sex-t287142.html

everybody was talking and arguing with a different approach and misunderstood each other. if you want to know what is my opinion about it, you can read it there.

beforehand i would had to spend a lot time to explain my definitions, like for example what means post-OP or non_OP. i didn't exclude any operation at all. but meant only that surgical modification that transformed the penis into something that reassembled what looks more like a vagina. but without takeing time for such a detailed definition what i meant with non-op, other will exploit it and run straw man atacks, telling me that there are of course OP's, like breast augmentation and what ever.

to have a successful communication we would have to make clear what means 'gender', 'sex', 'third gender' transgender', 'Kathoey', 'ladyboy' and so on at all or how is our definition of them when we use these terms in our argumentation.

but here an these forum, after thoses pre textes are set, explained and defined, long entries typed and published in an entry, the OFF_TOPIC police would show up and delete f*cking everything because it is to long to read and worst of all i committed the crime to mention linguistics. so in don't start a long discussion here. waste of time. secondly, the 'third gender' it isn't a topic where i have big personal interests in, but it is good to demonstrate on example the common nature of logical fallacies, errors of reasoning, misconceptions of the" right" and" true", 'false' definitions, prejudice, ignorance towards different cultural concepts and contexts.

but going back to your question about a ratio

disclaimer: what follows is not a scientific method, but maybe a insight in the issue that perception or the conception what a certain term actually mean vary a lot.

so concerning a ratio, do a google image search, family safe search off, and look up for the term ladyboy . you will see naked people, don't be offended. look at them like a medic would look at his patient or an anthropologist at the artefacts of a culture he studies.

i know that will not answer your question, nor is the ratio of non-op that will show up in the search results my direct answer. that is just a coincidence. it is also not exemplary for the transgender complex.

[animatic]

One of the biggest scratch head conundrums for me is a gay Thai guy I know whose "wife" is a post-op tranny. I still can't figure out if that makes him heterosexual.

They are still both homosexual. If you put porche badges on your toyota that does not make it a porche it is still a toyota.

On the other hand you can take a Porche drive train, suspension, gauges, and seats

put them in a Volkswagon Bug, and sure as hel_l that car will drive, handle and sound,

like a bleeding Porche. Most parts are drop in too.

So it's a question of building the car you really wanted to begin with.

And that is the case, regardless of the scared, or bigoted, or ABSOLUTELY sure, about these people.

They got dealt a circumstance, and some few absolutely can't go on with the status quo of their genital makeup.

The idea that ALL katoeys are making decisions to become women and it is a choice they can make or not.

Some say they are just homosexuals, may others, scientists included, say they are women with miss assigned bodies.

Why they have had a different prenatal or post natal development cycle is in diSput, but scans and chemical testing

DO indicate that;

they are not the same as either born MEN, nor born WOMEN, but are closer to WOMEN in how their minds function,

and there is nothing the straightest bunch of 'normal people' can do to make this NOT SO.

If we all were alike 100% we would be one person 3 billion times and nothing would ever get done...

Viva la diversity of life, and it's oddities included. From hence comes my tolerance of most all people...

except bigots and intolerant types....

Golden rule, live and let live, cast not the first stone, while living in glass houses etc.

I get the impression that you think I am anti gay, lesbian or Ladyboy. `Please nothing could be further from the truth, I am not. From your defensive stance I take it that you are a ladyboy and I say good on you. If you read my previous post on this I said "everyone unto thier own.

The best man at my wedding was a raving homosexual and his nickname is homer whch he chose himself and we are the best of mates. So if I have homo / lesbian friends and this makes me a bigot then so be it to the uneducated dickwits....

big·otplay_w2("B0242400") (bgt) n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I guess your feelings differ from mine so that means you fit the bill of a bigot.....

No actually I am not a katoey, nor have any inclination to be one.

I have 2 friends that are, but no inclination to date either.

But that doesn't mean they aren't friends.

I also studied Anthropology and Psyco-Biology,

so I have some grounding in the medical/brain functions,

of the human organism and this particular sub-set of humanity.

And I come to disliking intolerance, by having a university level

philosopher in the family, so I see many sides to many issues.

And then form MY opinion.

I have seen the damage that that bigotry even casual can have on the targets, in many forms,

and hence see that as a greater evil on this planet than what most bigots complain loudly about.

I disliked some of what you said, simple as likely under-informed,

some others were not even giving pretense for civility.

I never indicated ANYONE specifically was a bigot, did I?

If you took umbrage specifically... I wonder why?

If I was a katoey I would be one butt ugly one for sure,

They would have t use me as comic relief in a cabaret show...

[brahmburgers]

Rumfoord>> You are correct that there might be those that never wish to do any operations to fully alter their gender. I however don't know anyone that don't wish to have or wished they could had. So I cannot give any number regarding ratio...do you know?

it isn't so easy explainable with some statistics.

i have an approach that is based on the theories that came from the field of gender studies and sees gender as social construct. in short, my point is that it isn't about to become a woman. and that the post-op thingy isn't the norm or a 'standard'. that is just another very narrow social construtions, categories that not explain the inbetweens and the whole thing.

it would take to much time to explain it in full length, particularly i don't know your background, or your approach on this.

changes are high that we talk about the same subject in a different "language" (and both can be reasonable) using the same term, but having a different definition for it (and both can be reasonable).

awhile ago there was in the general forum a discussion about the third gender. you can read it here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Sex-t287142.html

everybody was talking and arguing with a different approach and misunderstood each other. if you want to know what is my opinion about it, you can read it there.

beforehand i would had to spend a lot time to explain my definitions, like for example what means post-OP or non_OP. i didn't exclude any operation at all. but meant only that surgical modification that transformed the penis into something that reassembled what looks more like a vagina. but without takeing time for such a detailed definition what i meant with non-op, other will exploit it and run straw man atacks, telling me that there are of course OP's, like breast augmentation and what ever.

to have a successful communication we would have to make clear what means 'gender', 'sex', 'third gender' transgender', 'Kathoey', 'ladyboy' and so on at all or how is our definition of them when we use these terms in our argumentation.

but here an these forum, after thoses pre textes are set, explained and defined, long entries typed and published in an entry, the OFF_TOPIC police would show up and delete f*cking everything because it is to long to read and worst of all i committed the crime to mention linguistics. so in don't start a long discussion here. waste of time. secondly, the 'third gender' it isn't a topic where i have big personal interests in, but it is good to demonstrate on example the common nature of logical fallacies, errors of reasoning, misconceptions of the" right" and" true", 'false' definitions, prejudice, ignorance towards different cultural concepts and contexts.

but going back to your question about a ratio

disclaimer: what follows is not a scientific method, but maybe a insight in the issue that perception or the conception what a certain term actually mean vary a lot.

so concerning a ratio, do a google image search, family safe search off, and look up for the term ladyboy . you will see naked people, don't be offended. look at them like a medic would look at his patient or an anthropologist at the artefacts of a culture he studies.

i know that will not answer your question, nor is the ratio of non-op that will show up in the search results my direct answer. that is just a coincidence. it is also not exemplary for the transgender complex.

I other words, you don't really know, so you obfuscate the issue with a torrent of words. Just one sentence: "to have a successful communication we would have to make clear what means 'gender', 'sex', 'third gender' transgender', 'Kathoey', 'ladyboy' and so on at all or how is our definition of them when we use these terms in our argumentation."

....sounds like filibustering, but why, and who would you want to filibuster in this thread?

If you've got something to say, say it.

[oops]

"what does it matter what they are, they are all filthy slags!"

Quote from Dave in Yorkshire last week at a bar in Sukhumvit

Was he talking about thai visa members?

Finally someone that actually makes me laugh.  I have been reading through the post and your right on the money for the most part.  

[oops]

These girls get the best of both worlds....all the stuff that goes along with being a beauty queen and they can still stand up and take a slash.....awesome!

They are most likely all post-ops, so no they don't stand up to pee and for the untrained eye they look as complete women, even naked...

   I was drunk, it was dark,,,she was cute so I  took er ome she was very petite very girl like  couldn't figure out why she didn't talk with the exception of the occasional yes or no.  When I got her home she refused to let me undress her but wanted to shake hands with willie.   I started to realize that I might of been duped, so I stuck my hand in the shirt....Wow I was glad I didn't stick it in her pants...I would of been shakiing hands with his willie.

 I do have to say all in all I don't think I have ever had any real problems with them I always have a good time when I am talking with these guys.  

I guess it is because I am a believer in believers.  I love people that believe in themselves and what they want so much that they are willing to put themselves out there.    I can tell you 12 years ago I was very uptight about it only to realize the problem was me not them.  So I think if they want to do it more power to them.  This is what I truly love about thailand....... and most likely why most of you are here as well.

[brahmburgers]

I can tell you 12 years ago I was very uptight about it only to realize the problem was me not them. So I think if they want to do it more power to them.

What were uptight about, in regard to 'them', 12 years ago?

"....if they want to do it" Do what, surgically and hormonally change their bodies?

My issue isn't so much with what people do surgically to change their appearance. My issue, if I have one, is the harassment that ensues from some of them, particularly in touristy areas of Thailand. Thankfully, for me, I don't reside in places like Pattaya or Phuket, so I might only be harassed by extra-sassy katoy if/when I were to visit those type of places (which I rarely do). However, I hear stories of serious harm and spoiled vacations (or worse) which ensue from Katoy getting seriously aggressive with tourists.

Ok, not so common, but happens nevertheless.

One Dutch guy purportedly jumped out a 2nd story hotel window when he realized (too late) he'd taken a katoy to his room, and the katoy wouldn't leave nor allow the farang leave without paying money. I know stories like that elicit howls of laughter, but it's more than fun and games to go falling out a 2nd story window.

Another story, was two Arabs who also realized too late, that they'd brought katoy to their hotel room. When told to leave (without any payment) the katoy immediately got on their phones and called all their sissy friends. The Arabs got beat up on the sidewalk and wound up curtailing their vacation, leaving the next day in bandages.

Of course, in all such cases the police are completely worthless, partly because the farang don't want to go through the many weeks and embarassment and hassles of pursuing a legal case - which they probably wouldn't win anyway.

Apologists for katoy can say 'well there are straight people who commit crimes also.' Yes, but there's a disproportionate larger % of katoy who do such crimes as mentioned above. Plus, in every such case (of farang getting duped), the katoy for hire are lying as part of their scam. Yes, it's a ruse because they don't have the basic honesty to tell the potential customer what goods are on offer.

And there's always a factor of katoy getting offended which often leads to immediate anger and revenge, and sometimes grave physical harm.

Edited November 6, 2009 by brahmburgers

[hughben]

Apologists for katoy can say 'well there are straight people who commit crimes also.' Yes, but there's a disproportionate larger % of katoy who do such crimes as mentioned above. Plus, in every such case (of farang getting duped), the katoy for hire are lying as part of their scam. Yes, it's a ruse because they don't have the basic honesty to tell the potential customer what goods are on offer.

And there's always a factor of katoy getting offended which often leads to immediate anger and revenge, and sometimes grave physical harm.

Any facts to back this up, or are you getting these facts from a one time excursion down Beach Road in Pattaya?

Are villages across Thailand littered with the Katoey mafia?

Regarding the 'dupe' in the p4p world (where the minority of Katoeys are found). In my experience if you talk to them with some respect, they will tell you they are not 'women'.

I can usually tell, but if I am unsure, I have asked if they were ladyboys (after a few minutes of chit chat) they had all said they were. A comment, like, "Wow, you look like a lady", and then giving an excuse like I am meeting my wife/gf now, so I am busy will be suffice.

Going down Beach Road pissed out of your head on booze with a wad in your shorts, however isn't recommended.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

but going back to your question about a ratio

disclaimer: what follows is not a scientific method, but maybe a insight in the issue that perception or the conception what a certain term actually mean vary a lot.

so concerning a ratio, do a google image search, family safe search off, and look up for the term ladyboy . you will see naked people, don't be offended. look at them like a medic would look at his patient or an anthropologist at the artefacts of a culture he studies.

i know that will not answer your question, nor is the ratio of non-op that will show up in the search results my direct answer. that is just a coincidence. it is also not exemplary for the transgender complex.

Let me first say that I really liked your post; excellent comments. I also agree that it's very, very difficult to have a mature discussion in this forum because inevitably some people will resort to shouting BS as a tactic to get the topic closed and it even works pretty much all of the time; topic gets closed, but those people aren't asked to take a vacation.

However.

I think doing that Google search is absolutely the wrong way to go about establishing ratio. What you are looking at is a 'market ratio of a segment in the porn industry', not a real life social ratio. Transwomen who go for the full operation are MUCH less likely to be want to be viewed or used as sex toys. What you see when doing that Google image search is a reflection of a particularly common fetish, namely 'chicks with dicks'. Plus, objectively, once going for the full operation honestly there's not much out of the ordinary to see, it doesn't even make sense to have a website on that other than perhaps in the very small niche of potential transgender people who might want to discuss issues relating to this topic.

Regarding the 'dupe' in the p4p world (where the minority of Katoeys are found). In my experience if you talk to them with some respect, they will tell you they are not 'women'.

YES, of course. I see that all the time with relative newbies or the sexually less secure; they seem to assume that because things aren't the way they first thought they'd be after stepping off the plane in Thailand, they were therefore actively being duped. They seem to think that 'duping straight guys' is their active agenda. I won't say it never happens, but really it honestly is not in the interest of a ladyboy to dupe a guy and then have a scene in the room with a likely outcome being that she doesn't get paid, or worse. It makes far more sense to be upfront about it; it's not like there's any kind of shortage of guys interested in ladyboys.

I can usually tell, but if I am unsure, I have asked if they were ladyboys (after a few minutes of chit chat) they had all said they were. A comment, like, "Wow, you look like a lady", and then giving an excuse like I am meeting my wife/gf now, so I am busy will be suffice.

Huh.. I always just ask 'So, how long have you been female?' and I ask that to all the women as well, especially for a joke when they're a bit taller, etc. I don't get the shyness about this topic among some relative newbies to Thailand.. Just ask! Some people who think they're experienced but really aren't like to then give 'advice' or do forum posts on 'how to spot a ladyboy', which newer newbies really admire as good advice.. As if people won't readily tell you when you just ASK the person. It's such an opportunity missed for some fun banter, both asking obvious women if they're ladyboys (this establishes yourself as a potential newbie greenhorn which can be fun to play out) as well as telling ladyboys who ask "Do you like ladyboys" that you don't know what a ladyboy is, or some side-track BS about being married (which totally doesn't answe the question), or get all mock homophobic on them while giving different signals "Oh my, if I EEVVVER ended up with a ladyboy Omygosh I think I'd just freeeak..!" The possibilities for joking around are endless.

Edited November 8, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai