Loy Kratong Lanterns

[brahmburgers]

Yes, they're beautiful when they majestically rise at night.

Here's some grim reality about their effects:

They used to be made with bamboo strips (ok), but now are made with hard plastic strips (the type least apt to decompose) and thin baling wire. Not sure what the balloon is made of, possibly a plasticized paper with fire retardant added. Fire retardant can contain very gnarly/toxic chemicals.

Anyhow, the floating lanterns are most commonly used at Loy Kratong, yet they're also used year 'round. Some people/organizations release dozens of them per week, as does one individual in my small village, and I've seen it's very common on any rainless night in Pai. So if that's a microcosm of Thailand, there must be hundreds of thousands per week.

One added problem with the spent lanterns, is for workers cutting grass/weeds. One of the worst things to encounter with a weed cutter is thin wire - it not only bolloxes up the machine, but can cause injury to the worker.

How about some oversight on the lanterns? Suggest using only bio-degradable materials, such as rice paper and bamboo strips. It wouldn't be at all hard to make them in that way, plus Thais are adept at crafts.

[Aachen]

Because of one accident (Fire in the city) all of these are forbidden in DE .... Someone thought to be intelligent to start a ballon from his balkony...

[brahmburgers]

Because of one accident (Fire in the city) all of these are forbidden in DE .... Someone thought to be intelligent to start a ballon from his balkony...

What's DE - Delaware? They'd be instant jail time in California also, anytime from June to October. Indeed, during the Pacific war between Japan and the US, one plan called for the Japanese to send incendiary devices floating over the US west coast forests during the driest parts of the year - in order to start forest fires.

[ozzieovaseas]

Because of one accident (Fire in the city) all of these are forbidden in DE .... Someone thought to be intelligent to start a ballon from his balkony...

What's DE - Delaware? They'd be instant jail time in California also, anytime from June to October. Indeed, during the Pacific war between Japan and the US, one plan called for the Japanese to send incendiary devices floating over the US west coast forests during the driest parts of the year - in order to start forest fires.

Are you the same guy that was spittin' the dummy over the waste of water at Songkram??..just because some other countries happen to suffer droughts and shortages of water to primary industries??

Your knowledge on the subject made an interesting read but i dont think theres much point in us expats lamenting over things that have been long time traditions here..not like our thinking will ever change these things.

For me, I cringe everytime i walk past a small vacant lot that has been used as a convenient cesspit/dump for pickup trucks on majour roads..but what can we do about it if even the thais dont care?

If there is such little respect for mother earth (not to mention respect for other peoples property) in the minds of a "live for today" throwaway national mentality, then what possible changes can we make?

And, after all, IMO, there are many far more pressing and challenging issues facing the next generation than the damages made by yearly celebrations.

I even met a farang recently who actually believed that the world was going to end in 2012..so "bugger it all" was the attitude

[brahmburgers]

Because of one accident (Fire in the city) all of these are forbidden in DE .... Someone thought to be intelligent to start a ballon from his balkony...

What's DE - Delaware? They'd be instant jail time in California also, anytime from June to October. Indeed, during the Pacific war between Japan and the US, one plan called for the Japanese to send incendiary devices floating over the US west coast forests during the driest parts of the year - in order to start forest fires.

Are you the same guy that was spittin' the dummy over the waste of water at Songkram??..just because some other countries happen to suffer droughts and shortages of water to primary industries??

Your knowledge on the subject made an interesting read but i dont think theres much point in us expats lamenting over things that have been long time traditions here..not like our thinking will ever change these things.

For me, I cringe everytime i walk past a small vacant lot that has been used as a convenient cesspit/dump for pickup trucks on majour roads..but what can we do about it if even the thais dont care?

If there is such little respect for mother earth (not to mention respect for other peoples property) in the minds of a "live for today" throwaway national mentality, then what possible changes can we make?

And, after all, IMO, there are many far more pressing and challenging issues facing the next generation than the damages made by yearly celebrations.

I even met a farang recently who actually believed that the world was going to end in 2012..so "bugger it all" was the attitude

No, I'm not the same farang who was "spittin' the dummy". I don't know if I've ever "spit the dummy" ...whatever that is. I've done some nutty things though, like sneaking past internal borders in Burma with no visa.

However, you touch upon an interesting point, which has been discussed in many ways on T.Visa. When farang see things in Thailand that actively annoy them, should they make a fuss, or just keep quiet? It's a multi-faceted issue, with each case being unique.

In the bigger picture of things, this relatively small patch of the planet is called "Thailand" but in a way it belongs to all people, not just the Thais. Same goes for any patch of territory worldwide. How different are the Thais from other of our species?

People share 99.99999 or their genes. That leaves only about 0.00001 % of genes to differentiate a Laplander from a Fijian, if that. Thais themselves are a mix of dozens of ethnic types, including a portion of farang genes, but that's another subject.

Some of us feel a sort of 'husbandry' for the entire planet. My concern for litter-free forests (or free roaming mammals, or free flowing rivers, etc) don't stop at the Laos border and then continue at the Thai side of the border or vice versa.

[sanook2me]

Not sure what the balloon is made of, possibly a plasticized paper with fire retardant added. Fire retardant can contain very gnarly/toxic chemicals.

Don't think so, i watched a group of kids and adults get in a fluff when the balloon/lantern caught fire before taking off...whoof...of flame and it was gone......

Could have caused injury but somehow no one got hurt....

[thaimate]

Brahmburgers

you ask should we make a fuss or keep quiet in Thailand. KEEP QUIET,its not our country we are guests, and i wish all the immegrants who go to Britain would be made to do the same,its one of the reasons we left ,because i was sick of our govt bending over backwards at the expense of british people to accomodate foreigners to our shores.

rant over.

[IanForbes]

Although I have to agree that the lanterns are a potential hazard, and are not particularly good for the environment, they are also a lovely tradition where I think the good outweighs the bad. There are far more important things to clean up before ending an attractive tradition.

I guess we should get rid of all fireworks as well. They blow the hands and fingers off countless children and blind gawd knows how many people.

Yup, I've seen the lanterns go astray, and seen the burnt out wire loops scattered around the city.

And think of all those wasted flowers on the ridiculous floats... Where does all that garbage go later?

And who cleans up all those flower cakes that go floating down the river?

Yup, it sure creates a mess. Maybe it's better to stop all festivals and holidays. I'm sure that would be beneficial.

Better we concentrate on getting children off motorcycles and mothers carrying children and babies on bikes.

[sanook2me]

Better we concentrate on getting children off motorcycles and mothers carrying children and babies on bikes.

6 up and can still see room on the seat at the rear....this is the record...surely...never seen more than 6.... only ever managed to photo 4 up.... well done for this one....

[EnhancePlus]

Lets start cleaning up the PC farangs and tell'm to mind their own business

[brahmburgers]

Brahmburgers

you ask should we make a fuss or keep quiet in Thailand. KEEP QUIET,its not our country we are guests,....

Lets start cleaning up the PC farangs and tell'm to mind their own business

It's a mixed bag. Some things that some farang complain about might seem silly, like complaining about trash covering the ground after an outdoor concert, or dogs that bark all night in a crowded neighborhood while their owners don't give a thought to do anything about it.

However, there are other things that can elicit more concern, but again, it's largely subjective. If I see a man beating a woman, or driving dangerously, I might be inclined to speak out. There are some things that are universal. In other words, they're bigger than countries, or ethnic roots.

You and I don't have to think the same way, but if I see or hear something that I deem is dangerous to people, animals or nature, then I may feel inclined to take action.

Among some of my chief concerns:

>>> Thailand should not go nuclear

>>> deadbeat dads should be required to offer tangible assistance to their abandoned kids.

>>> pretty much any valid environmental issue that lessens harm to people, animals or ecosystem.

Again, much of such concerns are bigger than any one country. I have no qualms about offending someone, if the issue is grave. Most people are much too easily offended anyway, about a whole bunch of things, but that's a big issue unto itself. Thankfully, I learned decades ago how not to get offended. I should write a book about it, and send you a free copy, ha ha.

[PhilHarries]

Lets start cleaning up the PC farangs and tell'm to mind their own business

No I got a better idea. Let's start by cleaning up all the numbskulls who have absolutely no idea what PC is, or even what the letters PC mean, but insist on trotting out this gutter rag type of nonsense whenever they read or see something they don't like.

This is an environmental issue, okay not exactly a major one but it has a negative impact nonetheless. There are more environmentally friendly materials to use so that at least is a start.

And as for thaimate's anti immigration rant, that's got to be the front runner for the ThaiVisa/Darwin award for the most evolutionary challenged post this year. Some people sure seem to be less separated from the missing link than others.

[Ulysses G.]

Lets start cleaning up the PC farangs and tell'm to mind their own business

Political correctness is right up there with Alzheimers.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[geriatrickid]

I don't understand the criticism of the suggestion from Brahmburgers. It makes sense and is in no way trying to force anything on anyone. If anything, it is a request to return to the traditional way. The post can be interpreted as one that seeks to preserve and to conserve.

Another horrible environmental impact is caused by the release of balloons. They deflate, fall into the waterways where they are ingested by marine life such as turtles that mistake them for jelly fish. People that raise these issues are hardly namby pamby liberals or revolutionaries. Rather, they are people that are conservative, as in people that wish to conserve our world and to act as good shepherds of its limited resources.

[EnhancePlus]

Lets start cleaning up the PC farangs and tell'm to mind their own business

Political correctness is right up there with Alzheimers.

and just like an alzheimers patient they need to be treated gingerly with kid gloves or they might stab you in your sleep

Hey, I'm all for keeping environment safe but I'm not going to tell people what to do when I'm a guest in their country.

[Ulysses G.]

People that raise these issues are hardly namby pamby liberals

Way too many of them are exactly what you say they are not. In fact, the preponderance of phonies makes it easy to forget the few sincere conservationists.

[phetaroi]

In terms of those who post regarding environmental concerns, there are several types here on TV:

@ The type who doesn't see that culture is also important and that there can probably be some balance between culture and environmentalism

@ The type who worries excessively about being PC, versus the type who hasn't an ounce of tact

@ The type who goes around spouting off about saving the planet, versus the type who doesn't just spout, but actually does something proactive

@ The type who can't see the rubbish laying around and floating in the klong and river from their barstool

As for me, if there were an environmental group around Bangkok/Thailand that was sensible and were particularly interested in getting the rubbish cleaned up, I'd join and become an active member. I'm not talking about a little litter. I'm talking about lots that have become active dump-sites, for example. It concerns me because of human health (the resulting rat population, for example), as well as aesthetics. So far, I haven't run across such a responsible environmental group.

[oevna]

As for me, if there were an environmental group around Bangkok/Thailand that was sensible and were particularly interested in getting the rubbish cleaned up, I'd join and become an active member. I'm not talking about a little litter. I'm talking about lots that have become active dump-sites, for example. It concerns me because of human health (the resulting rat population, for example), as well as aesthetics. So far, I haven't run across such a responsible environmental group.

If you feel strongly about it, why not be the one to start such a responsible environmental group? Sounds like a great idea.

[brahmburgers]

As for me, if there were an environmental group around Bangkok/Thailand that was sensible and were particularly interested in getting the rubbish cleaned up, I'd join and become an active member. I'm not talking about a little litter. I'm talking about lots that have become active dump-sites, for example. It concerns me because of human health (the resulting rat population, for example), as well as aesthetics. So far, I haven't run across such a responsible environmental group.

If you feel strongly about it, why not be the one to start such a responsible environmental group? Sounds like a great idea.

I agree it's a very good idea, though could be dangerous. Taking a strong environmental stand on a specific goal, particularly in Thailand, is going to annoy/anger someone or some entity. In some cases it can be fatal. There have been times recently, when some brave conscientious person stood up to expose an environmental issue, and that person was murdered. In Thailand, environmentalism can be hazardous to your health. A partial list:

1. Jurin Ratchapol: Killed January 30, 2001 because he took action against encroachments into a mangrove forest by influential people in Phuket.

2. Suwat Wongpiyasathit, leader of Rajathewa community: March 28, 2001: Was murdered after campaigning against a garbage disposal project that produced foul smells and water pollution. She was shot dead a day before she was due to speak to a Senate committee on the environment.

3. Narin Bhothidaeng, former chairman of Khao Cha Ang Klang Tung conservation group in Rayong. Killed on May 1, 2001 because he led villagers to protest a rock grinding plant run by a national politician.

4. Pitak Tonewut, former president of the Nature and Environment Conservation Student Club at Ramkhamhaeng University: Killed on May 17, 2001 because he led villagers to oppose the building of a stone mill that encroached on a forest conservation area in Nakhon Sawan province.

5. Chaweewan Peeksungneon, Nakhon Ratchsima’s Naklang Tambon Administrative Organisation (TAO): Killed June 21, 2001 for obstructed the bidding for construction projects by the TAO which favored local wealthy and influential people.

6. Somporn Chanapol, leader of Kradae river basin conservation group in Surat Thani: Killed July 2001 for protested a dam construction project that obstructed the Kradae river.

7. Kaew Pinpanma: killed in April 2002 over a land dispute in Lamphun province.

8. Boonsom Nimnoi: killed in September 2, 2002 because he protested the construction of a chemical factory in Petchaburi’s Baan Leam district.

9. Preecha Thongpan: September 27, 2002: Was shot dead after campaigning against a wastewater treatment project in Nakhon Sri Thammarat’s Tung Song district.

10. Boonrit Charnnarong: Killed December 15, 2002 because he protested against illegal logging by forestry officials in Surat Thani’s Tha Chana district.

11. Boonyong Intawong: Killed in December 20, 2002 because he protested against a rock grinding plant run by a local influential figure in Chiang Rai’s Wiengchai district.

12. Khampan Suksai, deputy chairman of the Ping River Basin Conservation Group: February 1, 2003: Killed when he tried to prevent an important person from encroaching into community forests.

13. Chuan Chamnarnkit: Killed February 4, 2003 because he campaigned against drug use in Nakhon Ratchasima.

14. Samnao Srisongkram, chairman of Pong river conservation club:

Killed May 25, 2003 because he protested against a paper mill.

15. Somchai Neelapaijit, human rights lawyer: Last seen on March 12, 2004: Kidnapped and killed by government agents because he was the defense attorney for five Muslim militants suspected of involvement in the January raid on an Army base. He also was defense attorney for three suspected Jemaah Islamiyah terrorists, and was involved in cases against a proposed gas pipeline in the South.

16. Chareon Wataksorn: Killed June 21, 2004: Led successful campaign against building of power plant at Bo Nok. Filed petition with interior minister and National Counter Corruption Commission accusing wealthy people of bribing local administrative organization officials to agree to sale of a 53rai plot of land. In 2001, he had received an honorary doctorate degree.

17. Luechai Yarangsi, president of an environmental group in Lampang, was shot but survived.

18. Boonsom Nimnoi, a community leader opposing a Phetchaburi plantation, was killed in September 2002.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

taken from the anti nuclear booklet, Egat's Thaitanic

BB's note: you'll notice that essentially all the murders mentioned above were probably caused by VIP's or their agents. I'll let the reader decide how many prosecutions were instigated, and how many resulted in a conviction and meaningful sentence. Being as all those events mentioned above happened in Thailand, I venture that the answer is absolute zero. Thai VIPs can get away with murder, literally.

Edited November 6, 2009 by brahmburgers

[ozzieovaseas]

Brahmburgers..Its very commendable that you display your cares for the welfare of country,after all your concerns are coming from the bst of intentions.

Its a shame that the land,trees,beaches could be similiar to any other country on the planet yet the attitudes of the people are so different.

I dont really understand why other posters are bagging you out though...does anyone really want to see the planet be trashed?

Having said that i can also understand the point the other posters make when they say it will not go over well with Thai people.

I can just hear the pidgeon English words now.."why you worry,not your country farang,you worry about farang country"

Sadly i think that would be the average reception you would get..Not much forward thinking and even more sadly id say the environment has zero chance against the power of the almighty baht.

Interesting to see your list of the people who came to their sad demise..

I see they are all Thai..wonder what the MO was?

Yikes...imagine what they'd do to a farang that upset the apple cart

[koto]

Because of one accident (Fire in the city) all of these are forbidden in DE .... Someone thought to be intelligent to start a ballon from his balkony...

What's DE - Delaware? They'd be instant jail time in California also, anytime from June to October. Indeed, during the Pacific war between Japan and the US, one plan called for the Japanese to send incendiary devices floating over the US west coast forests during the driest parts of the year - in order to start forest fires.

Are you the same guy that was spittin' the dummy over the waste of water at Songkram??..just because some other countries happen to suffer droughts and shortages of water to primary industries??

Your knowledge on the subject made an interesting read but i dont think theres much point in us expats lamenting over things that have been long time traditions here..not like our thinking will ever change these things.

For me, I cringe everytime i walk past a small vacant lot that has been used as a convenient cesspit/dump for pickup trucks on majour roads..but what can we do about it if even the thais dont care?

If there is such little respect for mother earth (not to mention respect for other peoples property) in the minds of a "live for today" throwaway national mentality, then what possible changes can we make?

And, after all, IMO, there are many far more pressing and challenging issues facing the next generation than the damages made by yearly celebrations.

I even met a farang recently who actually believed that the world was going to end in 2012..so "bugger it all" was the attitude

Yo, traditions are one thing, how some, now make those things to sell goes against traditions, like Loy Krathong, some make the Krathong with harmfull things such as foam for the floation and nails to hold the banana leaves on, which can and do kill water life, sea birds and also the leaves drift back to shore with rusty nails sticking out of them causing pain and infections, the right way is a slice of banana stalk, coconut shell or bread for floation and banboo or tooth-picks to hold it all together, the flying fire lanterns should be made with strips of bamboo, not wires, the wire is also harmful in the fields and waterways, Expats don't need to try and change traditions, they should just know not to buy the things that are not made the traditonal way, all things that farangs buy to send into the sky or float on waterways shoud be enviornmentally friendly, some Thais, not all, but a few, take the lazy way to turn a baht because the Farang does not know better.

Attitude, having a good one is to reach out to make a difference, if you see something wrong or harmful for the voiceless like children, wildlife, natural waterways, do something about it, anybody can talk the talk, we all need to walk the walk.

The way we are allowing people to treat the earth, contaminating all of our natural waterways and not to reach out in anyway we can, even if it is cleaning up your neighborhood or the beach, park, lake, where ever we go, and maybe just maybe others will see the examples that we are setting and mabe some will follow, life is an attitude and we are all in this neighborhood together, one random act of kindness at a time might be good for starters.

Health, Happiness, Long-Life and a Good Attitude to All

By checking out http://solution2pollution.blogspot.com/ Might give on a few ideas of what one can do in there spare time, "NOW" is the only time there is Carpe Diem.

374.bmp

[PhilHarries]

In terms of those who post regarding environmental concerns, there are several types here on TV:

@ The type who doesn't see that culture is also important and that there can probably be some balance between culture and environmentalism\

All sorts of cultures used to be important like killing people and shrinking their heads. You all for that?

@ The type who worries excessively about being PC, versus the type who hasn't an ounce of tact

Another <deleted> who hasn't a clue what PC means or is targetted at. PC is totally divorced from environmentalism.

@ The type who goes around spouting off about saving the planet, versus the type who doesn't just spout, but actually does something proactive

Okay what are you doing apart from gobbing off?

@ The type who can't see the rubbish laying around and floating in the klong and river from their barstool

Don't judge others by your own low level lifestyle.

As for me, if there were an environmental group around Bangkok/Thailand that was sensible and were particularly interested in getting the rubbish cleaned up, I'd join and become an active member. I'm not talking about a little litter. I'm talking about lots that have become active dump-sites, for example. It concerns me because of human health (the resulting rat population, for example), as well as aesthetics. So far, I haven't run across such a responsible environmental group.

There are many occasions where groups of farangs and Thais give up their time to clean parts of the country but you obviously can't see them from inside the gogo bars. I understand your concern for the rat population, you just can't stand the competition.

[koto]

Lets start cleaning up the PC farangs and tell'm to mind their own business

Political correctness is right up there with Alzheimers.

and just like an alzheimers patient they need to be treated gingerly with kid gloves or they might stab you in your sleep

Hey, I'm all for keeping environment safe but I'm not going to tell people what to do when I'm a guest in their country.

No need to tell them what to do, be a tad smarter and pick up after them, 1. We would be getting some needed exercise.

2. We would be setting examples for a few. 3. Just because we did not trash the area, does not mean we can't clean it,

we can think of the harm it could be for the voiceless, like children, wildlife, waterways, we Farangs in some cases when

growing up had a garbage can close by, knew that storm drains went to our natural waterways, many Thais were raised

in the fields where there were no garbage cans or storm drains and nobody to tell them different, when they moved here,

yes they need to be educated, yes we can, set some examples, I always read about Farangs complaints and I never to

often see them doing a thing about it, If we are all so smart, let's get off of our bums and start cleaning up our neighborhoods,

beaches, parks, lakes, set examples, Waster-Size, Bend at the waist to pick up the waste and get rid of both.

The only thing I see that we have done, is bad mouth them and introduce junk food, we can make a good difference if we get

out of the box

[Ieyuhrah]

Do not see it now but when I originally read the replies (before signing in to make this reply) there was a pop-up ad for these same lanterns/balloons at the top of reply #5. Found that rather ironic and a touch funny........

[PhootThaiMaiDai]

Nice post and subsequent replies. And it was refreshing to see the percentage of supporters to detractors on the thread.

I find that conservation, like education and selflessness, are popular while misunderstood - or require a level of opportunity that most choose not to find. Unfortunately in third world countries where scarcity and archaic standards maintain a momentum, the nobility of hoping to bring a first world level of opportunity is seen as condescending or intrusive, if not merely futile.

I’d agree to a certain extent, just like “trying,” talk can be cheap while the written word or posting does little more than echo talk, even if it does allow for some permanence. You’ve got a good idea, especially with the volume of talk that could come with it. "There are plenty of other good causes..." yet this one seems already earmarked for you, if not segue to others. If you don’t feel comfortable, find a likewise interested local and help them to champion this idea and do something with it. Those same static words now more something in motion can finally do something.

Beyond the matter of garbage and scorched earth policies, this idea does resonate that of the King’s “Sustenance” and could find positive reception. Change, like effort, like physics, follows a “path of least resistance” principle, unless motivated by something more principled. There will always be those that stand in the way or do worse in the face of weak and ineffective change, the trick to knowing better, is doing better.

[DLock]

Let me tell you what happens when you overstep the mark.

Not that long ago, I was riding my motorbike and went past a pickup truck backed up to the edge of a ravine and 2 guys throwing plasterboard and tiles off the back. The ravine was steep.

I rode past and almost kept going, but something snapped and I stopped and went back and told them in Thai that they cant do that and to go down and pick it all up. They just kept pitching it off the back. So, I too out my mobile phone and videod them and the licence plate. They kept tossing it with no regard.

So, in a moment of pure frustration, I took the car keys and threw them deep into the jungle. They stopped pitching, looked in disbelief...then all hel_l broke loose. It turned into fisticuffs with the Thai's coming off worst.

To cut a long story short, the police managed to track me down and I was "asked" to come to the police station to discuss the incident. The Thais had asked for money for new keys, medical bills and I guess "loss of face". Initially they asked for 6,000 baht, but in the end we agreed on 1,500 and a Wai.

I showed the police the video of them throwing stuff into the jungle and he just shrugged his shoulders.

So, whilst I applaud the environmentalists for trying to do the right thing. I learned the hard way, that most Thai's just don't care or understand and when you try to take something into your own hands, it is a waste of time...and money.

The key lies in education. As long as it's not on their land, Thais think its ok to dump it on someone elses.

[WaiWai]

I agree entirely that

This is an environmental issue, okay not exactly a major one but it has a negative impact nonetheless. There are more environmentally friendly materials to use so that at least is a start.

, as with the comments of geriatrickid and others who have supported the OP.

I don't agree that talk is necessarily cheap. It is an essential first step towards awareness. Some Thais are responsive to such ideas; many posters here have Thai children and all of us have some contact with Thais. Of course, such topics need to be handled with delicacy but it cannot hurt to gently sow the seeds of awareness if a suitable opportunity arises.