How To Best Combine Schools, Teaching Techniques, Culture And Tradition

[MikeyIdea]

Education – That's a subject I have been passionately interested in all my adult life and even more so after I settled down in Thailand in the early 90'.

Discussion subject is: Thailand is a bit different, how to best combine schools, teaching techniques, culture and tradition to provide the best possible education and future for our kids.

And possitive and negative effects with the different education systems. Anyone want to discuss?

How not to do it… the Thai way

Better off Thais I know tend to decide school based on reputation and name, then try to deal with the travelling time. It is not unusual to see 5 year olds being dragged out-of-bed before 5:30 in the morning. I recommend the other way around. Find all decent schools within reasonable distance from home, then decide for one as close as possible. All my Thai friends know about the importance of sleep but are bad at enforcing it; their kids are all around 10% below what western child psychiatrists recommend. I have occasionally asked them Why…? And although I most of the time don't get an answer, the answer is clear: In their view the difference is not big enough to matter. Some argue; We must wake him up at 5:30 if we live here and he goes to the Satit school there, not home until 5:30 because of the traffic, then there's 1.5 hours homework (in K3) every day… To innocently ask Why didn't you choose a closer (non-Satit) school is like blasphemy for the parents. Common language in my home is Thai, I speak Thai with my wife and my daughter (well, spoke anyway), and I speak Thai at work below manager level so I have plenty of Thai friends to base my opinion on. Here's one truth to consider: Westerners asking Thais for advice regarding education is also getting Thai values in the answer.

How not to do it… My way

Common language in my home is Thai so I only spoke Thai with my daughter for the first 2.5 years. Don't do that…

Thai education overview

Thai education value academic knowledge… Thai parents value academic knowledge... All private kindergartens I know and have heard of have the goal that the kids should be able to read and write 2 languages by the time they do the entrance exam to first grade. Including the supposedly partly Montessori school I send my daughter to. Why not? If they can't do that, then they won't pass the Satit entrance exam… And if the school management and the teachers are smart enough to know that it is not really good for the kids, then they are surely also smart enough not to say anything, if they want Thai parents to send their kids to their school… My daughter is 4 years and 10 months old and she has 7 to 10 home work assignments per week. I asked the Thai teacher why and as an answer to that question she replied that the (Thai) parents come to her and request more home work…

All adult Thais are good at remembering but many are less good at other brain activities like problem solving and logical thinking. Being actively involved in my daughters education (and others), it all falls nicely in place. Yes, that's surely enforced by the Thai educational system. Here are a couple of more things to consider;

The first years are the most important ones for kids, that is where the foundation for the rest of their lives is laid (not only the rest of their education)

There is no such thing as "secondary school matters more". If anything, then it should be elementary school matters more because kids attitudes and learning styles are formed there and it's very hard to change what already has become a habit

It's better to be the oldest than the youngest in the class; A year of development matters a lot at young age. Don't fall for starting early unless you absolutely have to

Homework in Thailand is generally get it today and finish it by tomorrow

Too much homework is going to be the norm – As parent, learn to accept no time to finish it all, better do what we can and do it well

How many languages can a young kid learn at the same time? 4 easily so don't worry.

Problem solving is very important in Thailand. They have so many problems… No, not because of that but because the Thai educational system and the Thais don't put any emphasis (what-so-ever) on encouraging problem solving and people generally get pretty bad at it graduating from an environment like that. My daughter has a subject called problem solving and I asked about it at school one day. Funny farang, I was the first one ever asking about it… Clearly a DIY subject

There are 4 types of schools in Thailand;

International:

There are too many now a days and that a school has the title "international" doesn't necessarily mean that it is good any longer. Cost 300,000 to 500,000 bath per child and year. Beware of the extras, e.g., Thai and many other things are not included in the base price. For me, international school is not an option economically, I can't afford it, but even if I could, I still wouldn't send my daughter to one. She would grow up not really being Thai and I don't think that's going to be easy for her. She would miss part of the good of being Thai and living in Thailand. If a child is most likely going to grow up and have a future in Thailand, then I don't recommend both primary and secondary education in an International school. You decide what the most suitable combination for your child is. A few other observations;

British curriculum is still hot; many international schools (using British curriculum) seem to have a surprising amount of information about Native American Indians and Abraham Lincoln in them though. It's like American school books are cheaper to buy or something.

Why do so many kids from international schools behave like they own the world? Why are they so loud? Why are they somewhat impolite? This applies more to Thai children than westerners but like it or not, it applies to some extent to western kids too. Or have I been in Thailand for too long maybe?

Bilingual school:

Best of 2 worlds IMO and FMS (for my situation…) Still Thai and also influenced by western thinking and values. I think I'm lucky, I have a good bilingual school only 2.3 km from home. It's 65,000 per child per year for Kindergarten and 110,000 for Grade 1. That is for 2 semesters. Add 25% for extras, 60% if the kid is to join 3rd semester Mar to May. The 2 international schools close charge closer to half a million bath per year. A couple of things to consider for bilingual schools;

Teachers need to be checked, all Bilingual schools are not using good native speaking teachers.

A bilingual school will not make you bad in both languages. Who was the "ixxxt" that wrote that?

Most/All (All that I know of) are using the Thai semesters

A bilingual education is worth its weight in gold. Some could argue that gold is cheap in Thailand so the value of Thai language may not be worth it but it's not only that. It's widening horizons, it's culture and tradition that is very good to have learnt, it's Asia is the future and America is the past economically, regardless of if we like it or not

There are more of them around than we think

There are also many Thai Catholic schools around. I just found out about another one close to the intersection between Ratchada – Latprao only the other day. They generally don't push religion and education is good. They are also cheap. Good value for money.

"Satit" government schools

Satit Chula is probably good but the others I am not so sure. All rich Thai's try to get their kids into Satit schools. No Thai would question if a Satit school is good or not, that would be like question the king... They are government schools, entrance exams are academic and difficult, tea money certainly helps. I had a Thai friend who said that they paid 600,000 bath under the table to get their son in and that was in the mid-90s (I've heard it's much cheaper now but not sure about the going rate). But once they are in, then it is dirt cheap.

Kindergarten pushing academic knowledge is a necessity; the kid will be too far behind when it comes to knowledge otherwise

Must be able to read and write 2 languages to pass entrance exam to grade 1 (Thai and English)

50 students in each class with a primary teacher and one or 2 help teachers (Satit Prasarnmit)

Academic knowledge pushed, good memory more important than creativity and imagination

More than 80% of the students cheat on the exams and the teachers know it and ignore it (first hand information!)

It's important to be careful discussing how "good" Satit schools are; chances are that your Thai managers and supervisors went to one and that their kids go to one

Lot's of homework, get today, ready tomorrow, memorise, memorise, memorise

The myth about going to one to get connections doesn't hold, most connections are done at university anyway

Not a bad idea to go to a Satit school if you plan to go to Thammasart University later in life, teaching methods match

Competiveness among fellow students is surprisingly hard - and unfair

Other government schools

Some are actually good, most of them not that good though

Unlikely to foster aggressive American style competiveness

Excessive spirit and positiveness likely to be pushed down

All the Best

Michael

Edited November 10, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[TravelerEastWest]

What a thoughtful and wonderful post - many thanks.

I started out with my 2 small kids going to the nicest preschool that was within a 15 minute drive. It is a small friendly Thai school. Are the standards what I want = no. but the teachers are kind.

Now a friends kid goes to a very nice school in the Sukhumvit 31 area which would probably take me a solid 30+ minutes to get to with light traffic in heavy traffic 2 hours?

Even with the traffic I am thinking about changing schools.

[tengmoh]

Michael,

Terrific post!!! and excellent timing too. I'm in a similar situation evaluating schools for my 2.5 yr old and will surely go investigate BBS as it's close to us. Your introspection into Thais is spot on and hence I have always had a difficult time taking their educational advice.

BTW without your response to the OP on http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Good-Pre-sch...ok-t320084.html I never would have found this excellent post of yours.

THANK YOU!!!

[chantaal]

What a thoughtful and wonderful post - many thanks.

I started out with my 2 small kids going to the nicest preschool that was within a 15 minute drive. It is a small friendly Thai school. Are the standards what I want = no. but the teachers are kind.

Now a friends kid goes to a very nice school in the Sukhumvit 31 area which would probably take me a solid 30+ minutes to get to with light traffic in heavy traffic 2 hours?

Even with the traffic I am thinking about changing schools.

This IS a Great post/thread.

"Are the standards what I want = no. but the teachers are kind."

I feel the same. I don't have high personal academic standards, but my daughter and I do like clean, farang style toilets that flush and toilet paper, etc.

[MikeyIdea]

Are the standards where my daughter Idea goes now totally up to my standards? No, but then I'm sure that they wouldn't be that in Europe either. I mean educational standard – I bet cleanliness is better here than it would have been in a European school. And I like the little shower more than toilet paper

At the same time as I am complaining a bit on the teaching techniques used by Thai teachers here, I should probably also say that I am convinced that the education Idea gets here will give her a better chance in life than what an European school would give. In education I include school and time I spend activating and guiding Idea. Do I work harder with guiding Idea's thinking and development in Thailand than I would had we been in Europe somewhere? Absolutely…

The teachers are good, they are lovely but… the Thai teachers generally "teach" children to imitate – mimic – copy, not to think… It is to an extent compensated by the fact that Idea has 2 teachers for 18 students so there is more "hands on" than there would be in Europe, but it is still a fact; the Thai teachers were taught never to question anything, they were taught to memorise, that way of being is deeply rooted into them and it does shine through.

Stupid (or valid) sample of what I mean: I have listened to Idea's Thai teachers teaching reading Thai, the main thing is that there is less emphasis on READ than is good, It's like the teachers forget that they are doing an exercise in reading, not in pronunciation. The teacher actually says "say after me"; she doesn't say "read after me". The teacher is pretty good at telling the children to look at the letters while she says and they copy what she says but… certainly not always. The link to reading is not enough, the link to brain activity, not just ear and mouth activity.

In most cases (and certainly in my case), this would be (even) more of a problem with Thai family members helping with the homework etc. I tried to instruct Idea's mother about this for several months and got absolutely nowhere – why should it, that is the way she learnt to read. Idea's mother was teaching idea to READ, and I heard Idea say several times, "but I am SAYING after mummy already". Idea clearly thought that if she said what mummy said, then she did all she should do. I had the perfect opportunity and discussed with the mother: She was adamant that it was the same thing and I could not make her see a difference.

There is too much "if you copy something often enough, then you will learn it" in Thailand. Copy is learning in Thailand. That is the way the teachers and Thais were taught and we as parents will have to help and guide our children – toward more brain activity. Kids will get excellent at memorising anyway in Thailand

Another advice: I find that Thai parents "help" their kids to do their homework more than western parents do. I think that it is linked to 2 things; 1) Respect. If the teacher gives home work in Thailand, you do it 2) It is not common any longer but it still happens that Thai pupils are hit on the hand with a ruler for not doing the homework. Thai parents haven't forgotten. If this doesn't happen… (it is actually illegal in Thailand), then I recommend to make sure that homework is understood first of all, completely finished second. Homework in Thailand is more "repeat" than in northern Europe anyway. 20 repetitions of the same thing will not teach a student taught correctly more than 10 repetitions will… Too much homework will be the norm, make homework time effective, make the kids understand. It really makes a difference at the end of the term. They may be a bit slower in the beginning but they'll catch up soon enough, and pass one day.

I teach Idea to question what she is told. Idea likes to put on nail polish, we forgot to take it off before going to school one Monday and the teacher taught Idea that she can only put on nail polish during the summer months (which was 6-months away…). I asked Idea if she thought it was right that the teacher should decide if Idea could put on nail polish at home or not. I guided her and we reasoned until we came to a good conclusion. Thai Mummy didn't like that at all, teaching the child to not blindly believe what the teacher says – that is so wrong… I recommend that it should be done in Thailand too, but we should not forget to teach that it is not always appropriate to voice opinion. Thai parents need to be taught as much as children, or rather, Thai parents need to be taught BEFORE the child is. Parenting doesn't work well unless BOTH parents agree and help each other

Bye for now

Michael

Edited December 17, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[seaeagle]

I'm afraid I'm going to make a rather negative statement about Thais. However, it does sum up my confidence in their education system, and the national ability to deliver citizens who can make a positive impact on the country, in business, and in the world.

There's humourous saying in Europe, "Name 3 famous Belgians." No disrespect to the people of that country, but most struggle to give an answer.

Here, I paraphrase that to say, "Name 3 famous Thais". I don't think this country has given itself and the world a lot, and that is down to the education system. Anybody here doing well has gained qualifications overseas.

To conclude from this, I think the more international standard of education you can provide for your kids will stand them in a much better position for their futures.

[chantaal]

Are the standards where my daughter Idea goes now totally up to my standards? No, but then I'm sure that they wouldn't be that in Europe either. I mean educational standard – I bet cleanliness is better here than it would have been in a European school. And I like the little shower more than toilet paper

The teachers are good, they are lovely but… the Thai teachers generally "teach" children to imitate – mimic – copy, not to think…

I teach Idea to question what she is told. Idea likes to put on nail polish, we forgot to take it off before going to school one Monday and the teacher taught Idea that she can only put on nail polish during the summer months (which was 6-months away…). I asked Idea if she thought it was right that the teacher should decide if Idea could put on nail polish at home or not. I guided her and we reasoned until we came to a good conclusion. Thai Mummy didn't like that at all, teaching the child to not blindly believe what the teacher says – that is so wrong… I recommend that it should be done in Thailand too, but we should not forget to teach that it is not always appropriate to voice opinion. Thai parents need to be taught as much as children, or rather, Thai parents need to be taught BEFORE the child is. Parenting doesn't work well unless BOTH parents agree and help each other

Bye for now

Michael

Cool.

Some schools do not have flush toilets, the little bidets/sprayers, or toilet paper. My daughter's is one of them. I think it is Gross. She doesn't like to use the toilets and wil hold it usually.

Soap is not always available in the bathrooms. This is at her school and where I teach as well. I did bring soap in and left it in the bathroom at work.

Paper towels? No.

Repitition does work as a teaching method.

As I said before, my academic standards are not that high, and that's just me personally. I am pretty pleased with my daughter's school. She enjoys it there. The teachers are nice. I happen to be friends with the director, I think she is lovely.

Most importantly, my daughter has fun there. I pick her up and she's happy every day- and not just because it's time to go home.

The bathroom situation bothers me, and her. I'd be lying if I said it didn't.

[bina]

i dont usually look at these threads but this one caught my eye.

i have three kids all grown more or less, all three with learning disabliities. and we are in israel on kibbutz (higher socioeconomic level in theory since kibbutz pays all education ):

these problems are not unique to thai schools. bathrooms are the numberone problem here also with mostly girls suffereing from urinary tract infections since they 'hold it', and or diaharaea since the bathrooms are with toilet paper but are just filthy. have yet to see a clean bathroom in any age group among the various schools my three attended.

doing homework: i saw my friend at work doing an art project for the holiday season. why was she doing it? cause all the mothers/fathers 'help' i.e. DO their young kids' homework. everywhere. my kids were really upset that i refused through out the years to do their homework. and their projects look age specific to them and not polished adult masterpieces. and the teachrs know that and dont say a word.

unfortunately here too the system although it wants to 'educate' thinking adults, actually fosters memorization as there are the major O tests (like the french testing at end of school year) finals, that are nation wide so teachers spend most of their time and energy feeding the kids imformation in order to do well on the tests.. two out of my three didnt do most of the tests, one will make it up because she wants to go to uni; the second will finish his army first and then have to re do the tests.

i suspect that it is better to have a good social atmosphere in the school and supplement/complement the bad schooling with your own schooling after school. inernet is amazing for this, in english as well as most european languages (even in hebrew we have decent edu sites) , there seem to be good edu sites for homeschooling and extra curicular schooling.

kids in a bad social atmosphere in school , regardless of the 'high' level of educatin, learn less as they are so busy trying to keep their head above water socially, , or depressed from teh atmoshphere.

i know that there were several threads about homeschooling pros and cons; i suspect that for most people, homeshcooling is not an option, but haveing your kids go to a regular not so wonderful, but close by school is better, if the educatin can be supplemented by at least one parent (most probably in this case the farang parent but not always).

having three kids coming out of three different types of schools (not in thailand but not in a western european coutnry either, although based on those models) ive come to the conclusion that the schools did not make much of a difference on my kids apart from social skills, community spirit, and that they were fortunately exposed to little or no violence at any of the schools. from what i understand, thai schools for the most part also do not have very good programs nor very much leeway for children with mild learning disabilites like dyslexia. so a school close by but extra tutoring in the evening becomes a must.

just ideas really-- food for thought. in the end it seems to me that regardless of school education, children succeed in life by having a good home base i.e education begins and ends in the home. exposure to new things, taught to think at home, taught to maybe play the system when needed (like in thailand) languages and the ability to self learn/self teach when needing information. whether or not the child knows who abraham lincoln is, is not really important. its whether or not the child knows how to find out who abraham lincoln is when the name comes up that is neccessary and important.

bina

israel

[MikeyIdea]

I don't think that anyone (non-Thai that is) question that Thailand has an educational problem, the problem is that this educational problem has its roots in the Thai culture. And I don't want to change that, where would I move if all Thai's become like Germans or Americans?

I have 3 goals; 1) I want my daughter to have a happy childhood filled with laughter 2) I want my daughter to be well prepared for what will be required of her as an adult 3) I want her to understand when it is time to just feel satisfied

Unfortunately, the world gets more and more competitive. America is leading the development and also the consumption of anti-depressants. How do I prepare my daughter for what is to come? Is a good education academically going to be enough? I think not

A toddler today will finish university in 20 years time, she will then work for 40 years after that. Half way down this toddlers working life, that's 40 (forty) years from now by the way, China will be the world leader economically, India will be second and America and the EU will have struggled to stand still economically for the last 20 years. The Asian economies on overdrive driven by several billion diligent people who are pushed forward not only by the positive feeling of living in a country where things gets better every year, but also by an improved educational system will have taken over the world economy. America and the EU will still be powerful of course but it is going to be at the level of struggling to stand still.

Few people would question that Bangkok Patana is the best school in Thailand, it's been that for 20 years straight now, the education a child gets there beats most education you get in America or Europe. The problem is just that most people will not really see any opportunities in America or Europe in 15 to 20 years time and will probably not want to leave Asia. Going to an international school all the time here, they will have grown up in an expat style community without having any real roots either in "their own home country" or in Thailand. Most people need somewhere that we don't only call home but also feel home. We may be OK knowing that we're "outside and we'll always be outside" but should we assume that our kids will be OK feeling that all their lives too? This is why I don't recommend both primary and secondary education in international school. Part of the education in a good bilingual school will make a small difference academically and will give the kids the advantage of having one western foot and one eastern foot and the ability to feel at home in both societies, not only be able to bridge the cultural differences between east and west but also naturally understand them.

A good education academically is necessary but it is not enough. If it hasn't been a happy time, then it hasn't been a good time, regardless of what future success it has the potential to bring… A bit of Asia in the education is good. If nothing else, it should also protect the kid from ever becoming a bitter internet farang on ThaiVisa

Michael

Edited December 21, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

Repetition does work as a teaching method

Repetition works and it can be a good technique too, agree, but IMO, Thai's often use it also when there are other more efficient methods to use. I get so bored when I see 4 – 5 year old children trying to learn mathematics and reading without being guided to use their brain to anything else than storing information in. It's inefficient and it's sad. Those kids should have been out playing instead of wasting time learning something the hard way that they could have learnt using half the effort if they had been taught correctly… Or had been 6 month older.

Edited December 21, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[Firelily]

Another face of the current reality is, what else apart from repetition can a primary 1 teacher do in a class of 35 or 40 or 55 children? (I heard this one today - one of the reputable private schools in this city, Thai program, has fifty-freakout!-five children in its P1 class. One sort of expects this in poor government schools, but in a private school? and people pay for this????) I bet I would feel proud as a teacher if I could shut them all up and at least make them repeat after me!

I agree kids are being taught things 6, 10, 12 months too soon. Always playing catchup, non-stop coping with difficult tasks. We struggle with blending and segmenting for weeks and months until kids get it. If we were doing it a year later, it would take 2 days - I did it in another country and saw it work....

[mtone9317]

I have read much thoughtful comments in this post. Americans did not invent competition. It is human nature. Tribal groups are led by the strongest man or woman.

There are winners and losers in every society and in a world of 6 billion and more coming, losers do not get killed by the millions although killing machines have become efficient enough to wipe out the whole human race. In an attempt to win the education game it seems that China, India and the Filipinos are winning. Copying is the method of learning. In other words repetition is the main strategy for learning. There for you can have a class of 55 six year olds in a class, one teacher American teacher and two Thai aids that translate every word into Thai for the students to copy. Result> after years of classes students are Level One in conversation skills. The result is a population that is easily controlled.

Who invented the personal computer?

Who made Windows?

Who invented the jet engine, the airplane,

The method of mass producing autos

All these were made by Europeans and Americans whose system of education is repetition coupled with critical thinking skills, questioning, thinking.

Children can learn from play and there is no better way to teach children a language than having a child play with other children who don't speak his. her language.

Hence you have children who come to America as five year olds speaking no English. Three years later they are translating for their parents. American children, it seems play ALL THE TIME, they can make up new games( and language) as fast as you learn their old ones. I had lunch with my two teen daughters, what a laugh, I had a list of 10 new words they had made up or learned after we finished lunch. A couple of words:

funner--Jims party was funner than Bills.

plugger--the cord you use to plug your laptop into the electrical outlet.

[airplane]

The most important thing is to act like you believe in the school you are sending your child to. This instills confidence in you and in the school. If kids constantly here that their school sucks, their country sucks, their father's country sucks, the political system sucks, etc. they tend to become cynical whiners and hopeless sots. Teach them to appreciate the world they find themselves in and joy will be theirs.

[chantaal]

Repetition does work as a teaching method

Repetition works and it can be a good technique too, agree, but IMO, Thai's often use it also when there are other more efficient methods to use. I get so bored when I see 4 – 5 year old children trying to learn mathematics and reading without being guided to use their brain to anything else than storing information in. It's inefficient and it's sad. Those kids should have been out playing instead of wasting time learning something the hard way that they could have learnt using half the effort if they had been taught correctly… Or had been 6 month older.

You're right. And I'm not good at maths.

[MikeyIdea]

Bina, interesting that you write that in your experience the different schools your kids attended didn’t make much of a difference apart from social skills, that is my opinion too. You also write this beautiful little piece

children succeed in life by having a good home base i.e. education begins and ends in the home

Absolutely, couldn’t agree more. People are so locked into the academic results now a days and we miss out on the fundamentals. It all starts and ends at home. The parents and the family’s role have not become less important even if it seems that the world somehow has decided to go down that path. It seems that respect for others and discipline took a knock on the negative side at the same time. It’s not side-effects of stopping corporal punishment as some seem to think

It’s all about the home environment we give our children (and I don’t mean the thickness of the wallpaper)

[MikeyIdea]

Another face of the current reality is, what else apart from repetition can a primary 1 teacher do in a class of 35 or 40 or 55 children? (I heard this one today - one of the reputable private schools in this city, Thai program, has fifty-freakout!-five children in its P1 class. One sort of expects this in poor government schools, but in a private school? and people pay for this????) I bet I would feel proud as a teacher if I could shut them all up and at least make them repeat after me!

Firelily – Thai parents are probably living in a dream world where they think that their children are so well-behaved that they won't get negatively affected by having 50 students in each class. I don't think that they are aware of that repeat is almost the only teaching method possible in an environment like that, but then, they wouldn't see the side-effects of being taught that way as only negative anyway, even if they were… The side-effects of sending your children to international schools are well known by quite a few Thai parents. Less respectful, don't listen to their parents any longer – not desirable traits in Thai parents eyes. It's difficult to understand what's beyond the horizon where you haven't been yourself…

Satit Prasarnmit has 50 students in each class with a primary teacher and one or 2 help teachers, you aren't suggesting that a Satit school could be less than good are you?

Personally, I would not pay a single bath to have my daughter go to a school with 50 students in each class. 30 is an upper limit for me, I hope I can afford 25

Edited December 22, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[Firelily]

Satit Prasarnmit has 50 students in each class with a primary teacher and one or 2 help teachers, you aren't suggesting that a Satit school could be less than good are you?

I'm guessing here - those Satit schools have very fierce entrance exams, don't they? They don't admit any kid who is not smart enough to be reading Thai fluently and doing double-digit sums without paper and pencil. They don't get the dyslexic ones, the ADHD kids, the autistic kids, the mediocre ones, etc. Even 50 of those perfectly behaved smart little ones are too many, but I guess a notch above 50 random 6-year-olds!

Thankfully, I meet more and more Thai parents who know 50 or 40 in a class is not the way to go, some just cannot afford any better. Personally, I would go for a bilingual or Thai private school if I had a kid (depending on abilities and interests), the smallest class size I can afford....

(and yes, I agree, I see, but it still hurts!!)

[MikeyIdea]

Americans did not invent competition. It is human nature

True, but they sure took it to a totally different level. I have this funny picture of adults sitting eating anti-depressants like squirrels eat nuts in my mind. Even adults have problems coping with it.

It is very sad that hard competition also has reached the pre-school system. Had it not been for entrance exams to "good" schools, then it would not have happened. It makes me so sad to see when kids are forced to try to learn things that the mentally aren't really ready for. As firelily wrote; struggle for weeks and months when it would take 2 days if the child had been a year older. Or push 1.5 hours of homework onto a barely 5 year old child. They are too tired mentally to be able to absorb more after less than an hour anyway. Don't the school and the parents know and care? Or do they think that they have no choice?

Children do not take stress and being pushed very well at all. Some say that children are amazing and can take anything but my opinion is that it doesn't include abuse; they are amazing at whatever is positive for them, not the negative. They are actually less able to cope with the negative than adults are. I consider forcing a barely 5 year old to sit and concentrate with homework for 1.5 hours to be in the above category. I remember the teachers in my daughters school telling me about a new student they got. She was moved there because she couldn't take the pressure in the old school without throwing up. The teacher told me about her surprise (tockjai) when she pushed the girl just a bit. She threw up on the floor right where she stood. The child was 4! Years Old… This is a true story. I can imagine the mother saying; I don't know what's wrong with her. There is nothing wrong with her, you moron. It's you. And it is child abuse

Burnt-out was an acceptable word a while back, then it more or less disappeared; it's now on its way back again. That's for adults; you rarely hear the word in connection with children

Playing plays a very important part in the Development and Education of young children. I never have better results from our homework sessions than when we play in front of the blackboard. But then Idea is 5 years old in a couple of days time. It will be different in a years time or so.

I (obviously from reading my post ) think that kids are pushed with way too much academic learning too early in Thailand. Do we push too much academic learning onto kids too early in Europe and America too now a days?

Opinions please

Edited December 23, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

I was probably wrong…

I deliberately decided not to do homework with Idea before she was 4 years old (Anubaan 1). I played with her instead, guided her a bit in terms of problem solving, coming to conclusions and taking decisions but it was play. I started homework when she was 4 years and 2 months old (summer term before Anubaan 2). I must say that if the child is to do her education in Thailand, then I was probably a bit wrong… I could have done some homework with her, softly playing it in. It wouldn't have hurt. And she would have been less behind. Idea is best in the school speaking English, lower one-third of the class at reading and writing English and maths and dead last at reading and writing Thai. Idea's Thai achievements I dedicate to the worst teaching technique I have ever seen, coming from her mother. I have yet to convince her that learning to read is not an exercise in pronunciation, and I fail miserably whatever I try to do… Advice please.

Idea is in the top 25% of the class in problem solving and thinking and is catching up with her friends nicely in reading and writing English and maths though and will have overtaken quite a few of them by the time she finish Anubaan 3. That was my thought from the beginning and I still believe it will happen – ready by the time Grade 1 starts. I thought that it was more important to develop thinking and put my effort there. Still, I was probably wrong to allow her to get that far behind. It's not good for a kid to feel that she cannot do what other kids can and Thai teachers don't fuzz around. If a kid can't do something, then they tell her so. Concentrating on the positive and ignore the negative is not invented in the Thai educational system it seems.

Key Take-Away: If your kid gets homework in Anubaan 1, then do a bit of it anyway. Even if she's only 3 years old.

It sounds crazy to me to do (academic) homework with a 3-year-old, what do you think?

Michael

Edited December 23, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

I'm guessing here - those Satit schools have very fierce entrance exams, don't they? They don't admit any kid who is not smart enough to be reading Thai fluently and doing double-digit sums without paper and pencil. They don't get the dyslexic ones, the ADHD kids, the autistic kids, the mediocre ones, etc. Even 50 of those perfectly behaved smart little ones are too many, but I guess a notch above 50 random 6-year-olds!

Entrance exams are difficult... A couple of friends kids have tried and they all failed. Very difficult actually. Sure you can get a dyslexic kid in, if you pay a couple of hundred thousand bath

The kids start grade 1 at the age of 5! at Satit schools. It's Anubaan 1 and 2 and then straight to Grade1

Edited December 23, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[Firelily]

> Idea is best in the school speaking English

That is going to help her immensely when learning to read English. Native or near-native speakers can catch up even with the best Thais very quickly, even if they only just know the letters at the beginning of Anuban 3. At the end of the year, the native speakers are the same or even better than the Thais who have been in the system for 3 years. Seen it many times.

Down the line, good English reading skills will help Thai reading too. I would say as long as she is making progress, and not stuck and confused, there is little to worry about - unless being a little behind is troubling her and she has started to dislike school.

For English reading, starfall dot com is the best reading website ever, check it out.

As for Thai reading - I disagree a little, repetition and pronunciation is important because that's how they learn the inherent tones of the different letters. They don't learn rules at the beginning, since they are really complicated, instead, they learn how tones work by rote, otherwise they are constantly getting them wrong and say hilarious things. (I have been listening to them for years.... it works.) But, of course, letter recognition and blending are just as important.

I would not give homework in Anuban if parents weren't expecting it. I try not to give more than 10 mins, usually reading, handwriting, or something easy to do, usually considering the kids' background (can their parents help them with English? what time do they go home - 3:30 or 5:30? were they absent and did they miss work? do they tend to fill in five pages if you don't look for five minutes? etc).

As for Europe - in my country, kids don't go anywhere near reading and writing until they are 6, and homework is prohibited (by the Ministry of Education!) in the lower grades. Most kids learn basic reading and writing in a year, from scratch. Thai is harder.... I would not start Thai reading and writing before kids are 5. Those letters are so difficult, I bet half of the anuban 1 kids cannot even see the subtle little differences. But what can we do, only try to make the best of the conditions here. I feel for any farang parent who has an average kid in the system (not one of those little geniuses who teach themselves to read by the end of anuban 1).

[MikeyIdea]

Thanks Firelily

But what can we do, only try to make the best of the conditions here

True. I am negative about quite a few things in the Thai educational system but it is also true that I am positive about the total effects of having my child doing her education in Thailand compared to in Europe. There is no doubt that we as parents have to work much harder with our childrens education here but to be honest, it would be good to do the same in Europe

I have worried if I did the right thing putting priorities so much on thinking and allowing and encouraging time for play and laughter. At the end… I’m not at the end yet, but I think that I can see that I did the right thing, and the wrong thing. It is correct to give priority to develop thinking and problem solving and do guided activities over homework but some homework should be done also in Anuban 1, IMO.

Maybe I should write like this; Kids who have one really good subject can be allowed to slip without it affecting them too much. The feeling that other kids in the class are all better is not good for a kid and can easily make her dislike going to school. A good subject helps a lot.

It’s absolutely crucial that the child likes school. I often hear Thai parents threaten with school, school seems to be something to use in a negative way or as a weapon. I often hear Thai teachers saying negative un-tactical things to their pupils so the level of knowledge isn’t higher after finishing a Thai teachers college. Same when parents leave their 3-year-olds at school, lying to them that they will just go and fetch something in the car and will be right back every morning and the teachers lie the same way too. No one is interested in learning why. I asked Idea’s teacher; Do you know why Idea cried a week (in pre-K) and the other kids cried one two months or more? That got the teachers attention; When I told her that it a question of trust and explained, she lost interest. I could hear her lie to the kids every morning together with the parents as usual the next day. Doesn’t help a kid to like school really.

One Thailand specific recommendation: Thais do not know about the importance of concentrate on the positive and ignore the negative. Thai teachers are more or less the same. It’s important everywhere of course, but even more important here: Be positive, talk positively about school. Kids going to school in Thailand will hear so much negative anyway, don’t let them hear it from their parents too.

Enjoy

Michael

[Firelily]

I'm sure it is also possible to find schools where teachers don't lie - our parents are allowed to stay as long as it takes to settle the kids down, for example. Some parents hang around for hours in the first couple of weeks. Actually, for me it is often the parents who are disappointing, some just dump the kid on day one and threaten not to come back ever if they don't shut up. And then of course the teachers are left having to carry them around for days and days, all day, until they stop crying, and not just stop because they are scared. As I see it, the young teachers who graduated recently got a very different training, a lot more similar to western expectations (about positive feedback, trust, having fun, group work, developing the whole child, etc). Some of the older ones are indeed quite scary.... and it is difficult to change your routines after 20 years of teaching, and of course they wouldn't listen to anyone younger and less experienced telling them how to do it right.... I think it will take time, but things seem to be changing.

A big obstacle could of course be huge class sizes in some kindergartens, even the private ones. I am at a loss to imagine how 2 teachers can deal with 40 3-year-olds in their first month at school. I guess that is where lying, threats, severe discipline in the classroom or smacking come from, anything that shuts them up and makes the situation manageable as quickly as possible.

As I see it, some of the weaker students are really struggling emotionally, and it is quite a job to encourage them to keep going and finding work for them that is just right. Others don't mind at all, they enjoy playing, they socialise, they communicate with anyone without sharing a language, and love school. And of course, can be anything in between. That's why I was wondering how your daughter deals with the situation emotionally.

If I was teaching Anuban 1, I would get the kids to pick a story from the reading corner twice or three times a week, and of course right at the beginning, explain to the parents the importance of story-telling (in any language), and how to use the story to practise colours, counting, letters, etc. That would be their "homework". I cannot imagine any form of homework that would be more useful for their academic development later on. At the moment, my colleague sends colouring, matching or tracing for homework, about 10 mins of work for KG1, she says it is mostly about establishing a routine for the children as well as for the parents (getting them involved from day 1). Some parents find it hard to swallow that they need to get involved and that they are responsible for the children's development. So many want to dump their kids for ten hours a day, and never even check the relations book, and then they ring me 8 o'clock on a holiday morning asking why the h*ll the school is closed.... you can imagine how much they care. Not everyone is as involved and active as you seem to be, unfortunately.

[noel2499rk]

Thanks for the great thread guys really interesting.

Best of 2 worlds IMO and FMS (for my situation…) Still Thai and also influenced by western thinking and values. I think I'm lucky, I have a good bilingual school only 2.3 km from home. It's 65,000 per child per year for Kindergarten and 110,000 for Grade 1. That is for 2 semesters.

Can you tell me where this school is. I'm in Bang na and my wife's niece, she is 7, has unexpectedly come to stay with us due to a death in the family. We are urgently looking for a school for her, unfortunately she speaks no English does this rule her out to admittance to a bilingual school?

[MikeyIdea]

Thanks for the great thread guys really interesting.

Best of 2 worlds IMO and FMS (for my situation…) Still Thai and also influenced by western thinking and values. I think I'm lucky, I have a good bilingual school only 2.3 km from home. It's 65,000 per child per year for Kindergarten and 110,000 for Grade 1. That is for 2 semesters.

Can you tell me where this school is. I'm in Bang na and my wife's niece, she is 7, has unexpectedly come to stay with us due to a death in the family. We are urgently looking for a school for her, unfortunately she speaks no English does this rule her out to admittance to a bilingual school?

Bang-Na is too far away, being relatively close to school is very important in Bangkok. I have PM'd you the name but I'd recommend moving closer to the school if you plan to let her go there.

If the kid is 7 years old, then she should still be OK to start in a bilingual school, kids pick up language so quickly. She will need extra writing and reading classes in the beginning but you'd be amazed how quickly she picks up.

Mikey