Very Strange Clutch Problem With Vigo 3.0d Turbo 4x4 2-door 2005.

[Riley'sLife]

The History:

Two or three years ago at between 20,000 and 30,000kms I noticed that there was a slight rattling sound coming from either the engine or the clutch/gearbox when the truck was stationary and in neutral. -for example when waiting at traffic lights etc. I could make the noise stop by simply pressing the clutch pedal. When releasing the pedal the noise would begin again. At the next service interval I asked Toyota to check out the problem. They said there was nothing wrong, and that everything was normal.

The noise persisted, and as I have never owned a diesel engined vehicle before, I assumed that it was just down to diesels being noisy! It became louder and so at the next service interval I asked them to check again. They said they couldn't identify any unusual noise and that everything was normal.

I have used the same Toyota Dealership in Hat Yai from 10,000kms until 50,000kms, and until the Toyota Warranty (3yrs or 100,000kms) eventually expired when the truck had covered 40,000kms at 3years old.

Last week we travelled to Chiang Mai and took the car to the Toyota Dealer as it was due for its 60,000kms service. They told me that there was a noise from the clutch. The same d#mn noise that I had complained about at the other Dealership in Hat Yai -when the truck was still in warranty- and that they said was "normal".

Today, I have had the CM Dealership remove the gearbox and inspect the clutch, after complaining vociferously to both the Hat Yai Dealership and to Toyota HQ in Bangkok. Hat Yai agreed (reluctantly) to stand the cost of any new part required to solve the problem and I agreed to pay for the labour costs - all this after argueing for a week. However, Hat Yai Toyota said that they would only take responsibility if the noise has been caused by a faulty part, and not if the problem has been caused by my mis-use.

It was shown to me today by CM Toyota that the noise occured because the protruding spline from the gearbox and the clutch plate's central splined cog was a bad fit. The clutch pad was neither damaged nor worn and the clutch has always worked fine anyway. It just doesn't fit snugly onto the protruding gearbox's spline and this makes a rattle when the engine is running and the gears are in neutral.

The Question:

Can anyone with experience please tell me if such a problem can be caused by the driver. In over 48 years of driving I have never had a clutch problem. Why would the spline and the clutch become a loose fit?

I would really appreciate some knowledgeable input as I can feel a battle with Toyota Hat Yai brewing!!

[BSJ]

That seems like a manufacturing fault. You need to measure the shaft and the clutch plate to find out what the difference is between it and factory specs. From personal experience the tolerance between splined parts that mesh should be no more than a few thousands of an inch.

Or it could be that some Wingnut grabbed the wrong clutchplate out of the bin at the assembly plant.

[H2oDunc]

The symptoms you describe would to me point to a simple thrust bearing problem ie normal wear. Try replacing the bearing and see if that stops the rattling you hear.I cannot think of how bad driving could cause the fault they are saying you have ?

[Riley'sLife]

Thanks very much for the input fellas.

I too can't see how ill-fitting splines can be the problem. The problem I have is discussing the technical aspect of all this with Toyota mechanics without the benefit of knowing the correct Thai terms, and also not having detailed mechanical knowledge myself. I have searched google for a diagram but no luck so far..will keep searching.

Is the thrust bearing located in the centre of the clutch plate, or is it part of the fork that pushes the clutch forward?

[Riley'sLife]

Toyota now accept it is a part problem and have agreed to replace the driven plate under warranty although the warranty expired 14 months ago (they say the centre of the driven plate is the problem). I'm not convinced this is going to stop the noise. So, as a further precaution and at my own expense, I am replacing the pressure plate and the throwout bearing (is this the thrust bearing in UK English terms?), and also having the flywheel resurfaced, so everything should then be working correctly without any noise- assuming they re-align everything on re-assembly(!) CM Toyota confirmed that the problem wasn't caused by my misuse. I get the truck back on Friday evening.

[T_Dog]

Toyota now accept it is a part problem and have agreed to replace the driven plate under warranty although the warranty expired 14 months ago (they say the centre of the driven plate is the problem). I'm not convinced this is going to stop the noise. So, as a further precaution and at my own expense, I am replacing the pressure plate and the throwout bearing (is this the thrust bearing in UK English terms?), and also having the flywheel resurfaced, so everything should then be working correctly without any noise- assuming they re-align everything on re-assembly(!) CM Toyota confirmed that the problem wasn't caused by my misuse. I get the truck back on Friday evening.

I hope after doing all that work it wasn't just the hydraulic clutch cable rattling against the fire wall. Those can make a lot of racket in my experience when they are not tied down correctly. Let us know how it turns out.

[Crossy]

Whilst the clutch is out also replace the spigot-bearing, that's the little (usually plain and cheap) bearing in the centre of the flywheel that supports the end of the gearbox shaft.

[luckyboy]

I also had a problem with my clutch, seems from new it's hard to press and got harder soon after. My clutch problem had been the main complain on my every service trip to the Suratthani Toyota, till today I'm still riding on this very hard clutch, they seem to be doing something everytime but the problem is still there so in the end they would say Vigo's are like that but I had been driving so many manual cars and trucks in my life and i'm 47 this year, this is a problem that comes with the truck right from the factory but they simply don't admit it. It's common for any workers to stay away from being hold responsible fixing complicated task, so today i've learned that Toyota people will keep themselves away when one comes back with a problem.

[Lickey]

If the engine is ticking over, gearbox in neutral,clutch pedal up, the only thing that can possibly make a noise is the gearbox or the cush-drive springs in the driven plate center, [broken springs] Get the garage to check the gearbox oil, if it has a magnetic drain bung, this is a good indicator of gearbox problems,

And be very careful re-facing the flywheel, a cable operated clutch or a hydralic system might not have enough adustment to accomadate the extra push needed,

lickey,,

[BSJ]

When the thrust bearing is on the way out it makes a whirring noise not a rattle.

An I stand by my original comment. If the clutch plate is a loose fit on the splines of the input shaft of the gearbox it can pulse with the rotation of the engine, especially when in neutral. And it is noticeable from the drivers seat.

[Riley'sLife]

Thanks again everyone for all the info and advice.

The clutch driven plate has now been replaced under warranty and I have paid for all new bearings, but not replaced the pressure plate. Additionally, the flywheel and the pressure plate have been re-surfaced. Cost 2,700 Baht, although this re-surfacing was at the insistence of Toyota – they said it will not match (?!!) the new clutch driven plate if they don’t do it and will make a noise if they don’t re-surface ‘

The rattling noise has now ceased, and I believe the problem emanated from the clutch plate central female spline, which was not fitting correctly on the projecting male spline, and was a manufacture fault. Toyota CM mechanic said they’d had a few Vigos with the same problem. On Saturday Toyota CM called and said that the truck wouldn’t be ready to collect as they were having trouble with the gears not engaging.

Rattle noise solved ; new problem caused:

Today, when I picked up the truck, the clutch operated only when I pressed the clutch pedal virtually to the carpet! – before, it operated at maybe half the pedal travel distance. So, it looks like they have possibly taken too much off the flywheel when they re-surfaced it! Bugg@r !!!

I asked them to adjust the clutch so that the pedal didn’t need to be pressed flat to the floor to operate. They had another look at it and said it wasn’t possible to adjust any more than they had done already.

They said that the only way to solve this new problem is to fit a new pressure plate. (3,800 baht + labour) From your input Lickey, seems that a new flywheel is also an option, right?

I am amazed at how calm I am about all this, I must have been in Thailand too long, as I almost expect additional problems to be caused whenever I have anything repaired, or even looked at by Thai service staff, no matter what the item!

The truck is driveable and I can easily adjust to the longer reach required to operate the clutch, but unfortunately the Mrs now has an excuse for not driving. Should I keep going as it is, or do I need to waste more of my life sitting around waiting for Toyota to fix it properly? With use and clutch wear will this long reach of the pedal problem become worse or less?

In answer to Luckyboy, I've driven many Vigos and never experienced your stiff clutch problem, my only problem was an annoying rattle.....until today of course

[Lickey]

Riley,over the months, it will get worse till the pedal is non-exsistant, there are 4 cheap ways round this, but to start off with, you say they replaced the driven plate, so putting another new one wont make a difference!! unless of course they do the "fatter" plate that makes up for the re-surfacing/skimming, this was possible in the UK to buy from your local spurious parts shop,,

Pressure plate skimming? went out with the ark,, cant believe they did this??

Im not familiar with the Vigo clutch system, is it cable or hydralic?

If its cable, you can increase pedal travel by releasing the cable at the operating arm, add some hex nuts between arm and adjuster nuts, this will bring the pedal up,

if its hydraulic, remove the slave cylinder, find a nut that fits snugly [not over it] on the push rod, file or grind the other edge of the hex nut so that in turn fits nicely in the slave piston dish, refit cylinder, [no need for bleeding] and that should also bring pedal up,

Another method is spacing out the pivot of the thrust bearing arm, this is more complicated if you dont have an access to the bell housing via an inspection hole,

Another point is does your Vigo have an oil pressure gauge? perhaps it would be worth having a mechanical gauge fitted to the engine to make sure the pressure is as stated in the Work Shop manual, if not, perhaps the crank thrust bearings are badly worn, allowing the crank excesive back and forward movement, this is of course maximised by clutch bearing thrust pressure, pushing the crank forward,

An easy test, when the engine is hot, lie underneath the engine, using a pry bar on the front pulley, try to lever the crank forward, [you dont need any great effort] then pry it backwards, if the movement is greater than 1/32 in, you might have a crank thrust bearing problem,,

So there we are Riley, a few things to try and think about, Cheers, Lickey,,

[Riley'sLife]

Thanks Lickey for taking the time to set out the options in such detail. I really do appreciate your and others' willingness to share your knowledge in this way. As everyone has probably realised already I'm not familiar with the detalied mechanics of vehicles and have never done anything more complicated than changing a cylinder head gasket on an old MGB, and that was 40 years ago! I'm afraid a back injury now prevents me doing any significant DIY. Being made aware of options and technical details is nevertheless a great help.

I am dumbfounded that Toyota CM think they have "solved" the problem by doing what they have done.

As I will have to rely on Toyota CM to recify this new problem, would their suggestion of replacing the pressure plate with a new one also provide greater travel for the clutch pedal -if I don't manage to get them to understand the options Lickey has outlined?

[BSJ]

I am getting the giggles from the stupidity of the situation! Sorry mate, I keep visualizing the 3 Stooges working in that Toyota dealership!

If you look at the diagram the clutch release fork is now the problem. They only have a limited travel and the 3 Stooges have machined away the distance the fork has to push the thrust bearing to release the clutch to facilitate a smooth gear change.

If your lucky your Toyota will have a slave cylinder like this that has an activation rod that pushes on the clutch release fork from outside the bell housing. Sourcing a new rod that is 2 or 3mm longer will help restore the activation distance from pedal to clutch face. A 10 minute job on the hoist. But to tell you the truth, I would rather go to an independent mechanic and have a new pressure plate fitted. The 3 Stooges are funny as he11 on telly, not so much in a dealership!

[Riley'sLife]

Thanks transam and BSJ.

So, by removing some of the surface of both the flywheel and the clutch pressure plate, Toyota CM have caused the limited travel that the clutch release fork has, to be even more limited - even to the extent that adjusting the clutch linkage between the pedal and the clutch release fork cannot restore the activation distance from pedal to clutch face.

If only I could say that to Toyota in Thai language!

What I cannot comprehend is why they thought it was necessary to touch the surfaces of the flywheel and pressure plate at all.

They stated to my wife that it was necessary to do so "to make them matching with the new clutch so that the new clutch plate would not make a noise."

I said resurfacing was not necessary.

The day the truck was supposed to be ready Toyota CM called and said that "it will not be ready until the following day because "We had to send the flywheel to be resurfaced because we had tried without re-surfacing and we couldn't put in the gears"

An hour later they called and said the truck was ready!

When I reported the clutch pedal having to be pressed to the floor to operate it and asked why they had resurfaced the flywheel and at that time also discovered they had resurfaced the pressure plate too, they said again that it was to stop the clutch making a noise, never mentioned about not being able to engage the gears.

Any idea why they couldn't engage the gears after re-fitting without re-surfacing the flywheel?

Is their original reason for wanting to re-surface the flywheel ( to make it match the new clutch and prevent it making a noise) valid?

[BSJ]

Hi Transam, I've done hundreds of clutch kits over my time in the workshop (20+ years) as well as many tear downs and component replacements and not once did I skim a pressure plate. My belief is that reducing the thickness of the metal on the hat will accelerate the formation of hair line cracks between the stamped holes and the edge of the hat.....which sometimes occurs in pressure plate hats anyway. As for facing the flywheel, when the surface is close to perfect all you need to do is linish the surface with a sanding disk.

For a better solution maybe the best option is for Riley's Life to go the letter writing route......I know I would!

[Riley'sLife]

Yes, I totally agree that this needs following up fully with Toyota in Bkk (and Toyota Japan too as I know they don't like bad press). To formulate the letter I need to be accurate in stating facts and also "best practice" mechanically. The help from you guys has been invaluable, and I now feel confident enough to deal with the complaint from a mechanical standpoint, except for two critical aspects as follows:

1. After installing the new clutch plate, they were unable to engage the gears?

(I presume they tried to adjust the clutch linkage, but that didn't adjust enough to disengage the clutch. - I am purely guessing here.... maybe they never even tried and some "bright spark" came up with the re-surfacing idea as a quick-fix).

What is the usual "best practice" next move to make after fitting a new clutch, if the gears cannot be engaged ? i.e. what should they have done instead of re-surfacing

2.They originally said the reason to resurface the flywheel and the pressure plate was to make them match with the new clutch and prevent the clutch making a noise!

Is there any validity in their statement? And is there a better way to stop a new clutch "making a noise"?

I am determined to resolve this issue with Toyota as it is the straw that broke the camel's back. I have a list of errors and omissions by Toyota Dealers in Thailand when dealing with vehicle service under warrany. I have stupidly let things go in the past - not wanting to appear over zealous - perhaps because the staff are all so endearing with their bowing, smiles, and wais...

[Lancashirelad]

They had found the problem. There was no wear of the drive plate, therefor the surfaces of the flywheel and pressure plate would be fine. If necessary, could just have been washed off with petrol/degreaser and cleaned up with a bit of emery cloth.

I've witnessed new clutches fitted to flywheels where the old drive plate has been so worn and been slipping for so long that the rivets had cut grooves so deep in the flywheel you could get lost in them. Worked perfectly.

Lickey has obviously fiddled with a few clutches in his time.

Clutches should always be replaced in their 3 part entirety. The cost of a clutch v the cost of having to remove the gearbox again, makes economic sense.

Here's what i did to get around the lack of clutch release problem back in the 80's.

Removed the push rod from the slave cylinder & cut it in 1/2. Cut a thread on the cut end of each rod. Cut a 1" length of hexagon rod, drilled it, threaded it, locking nut on each rod, screwed both ends of the rod into the hex. (imagine a very deep nut). thus giving me an adjustable length rod.

However, in this case it most certainly shouldn't be necessary. Toyota have ballsed up. No doubt about it. You now require from them a complete new clutch (all 3 parts) AND if the pedal travel still isn't right, a new flywheel aswell.

Good luck. Stick to your guns. Document all the other things you had previously over looked in your letter.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Lancashirelad

[finner]

Riley, I just saw your thread and will respond even though you may not see it.

I had the same problem, same truck, and had the throwout bearing and clutch disc replaced at 30,000KM Paid over B30,000 but can't find the bill for the exact amount (put it in a "safe" place). At 50,000Km, same problem again but I didn't get around to repairing it again till last week at 70,000Km. I was a little ticked off about this and politely let the service guy know. He was well aware of this problem and told me that Toyota had produced a new part to take care of it.

The problem is the small pivot pin which is shown in the first photo of BSJ's post Dec 2. It isn't labelled but is between the transmission and the Clutch Release Fork. The cost to remove the transmission by 3 technicians taking 2 days? B2000.

Hope this helps

finner