Us Blacklists Thailand Over Child, Forced Labour

[dumball]

='garyh' date='2009-11-27 16:14:44' post='3167765']

Shouldn't usa sort out it's own problems before sticking their nose in every where else, Child forced labour was on TV in Australia last week in usa, illegal immigrants having to put there kids to work in orchards picking fruit etc to get enough money to survive.

The article concerned USA government taking action after heavy protesting about purchasing certain goods that came from a certain amount of child labour , in no way does that mean or imply they are 'Sticking their nose ' into other peoples buisiness , just that they no longer wished to purchase those particular goods .

The illegal immigrants as displayed on Australian tv was about self imposed child labour BY THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS not the government perse , as is often said about LEGAL expats who complain here on TV , they can always go back to their own country , they are exploiting America , not the other way around .

[dumball]

catmac' date='2009-11-27 18:01:26' post='3167962''TAWP' post='3167933' date='2009-11-27 17:39:50']

'OriginalPoster' post='3167876' date='2009-11-27 18:04:54']If nothing else, this thread has given everyone a chance to answer that proverbial question of "which do you find more reprehensible, child labor or the US?" To me it seems that hatred of Americans is an inadequate reason to support child labor.

That certainly is one way to frame the discussion. If the observation is accurate, then the dogmatic anti-USA pathologies of so many entrap themselves to side with some awfully objectionable leaders, elites and primitive behaviours in so many Old World countries.

While the West criticizes and critiques it's own "do-gooder" efforts, policies and programs the pathological haters cite only the West's constructive self critiques, preferring to refer to the supposed and alleged object failures of the West. It's the case however that pathologies are irrational, often anti rational.

Both of your critique is inane and childish. Spee is for instance one of the most fierce US patriots on this board, but he is also not a socialist. To call his critique out as some form of anti-US rant is a bit like proclaiming that "anyone that doesn't think like me is against the whole nation". Not so at all.

I'm glad that you were able to understand and reply to Publicus's rant, TAWP. I'm afraid that I haven't a clue what he is on about!

[/quote

Many responders do not even understand the wording of the original post either , as can be noted by their off topic and rediculas posts , the post obviously states that which America does not wish to do as apposed to what Thailand should or should not be doing .

As for those that talk about mom/pop buisinesses and the like , you are WAY OUT in left field .

[dumball]

sasseinei , the centre of the slave trading was actualy in my home town , Bristol England , which at that time was quite close to being the centre of the world shipping industry "Brittania ruled the waves " . I only found that out in recent years .

[neverdie]

I especially love the way the USA pick and choose when they will take the high road on issues. Who cares about the USA.......the way things are going they will probably end up being a broke 3rd world nation & won't have such a long nose to stare down at other countries.

Who cares what they think they know. Before the USA goes looking in other peoples backyards on issues, perhaps they should tidy up their own messes.

[Spee]

There have been some horrendous stories about underage children being trafficked and being worked to death on fishing trawlers, for example.

I'm sure there are many stories not only on fishing trawlers, but in other businesses as well. I would suggest that the relative amount of incidence in Thailand is lower than say .... countries in sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, India, China and elsewhere. Thailand gets the visibility here because it's a Thai board, but let's not forget the global perspective.

[Spee]

it was the Yanks that first introduced the slave industries to the west. America is a fine nation to preach to others.

The US, in conjunction with the UK, were also the first two countries in the world to outlaw slavery and slave trafficking (under penalty of death in the UK). Trafficking in slaves existed for centuries after it began in the American colonies and continues for more than a century after being outlawed. Trafficking in slaves continues to this day in many countries in sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, India, etc.

I would encourage you to read Thomas Sowell's excellent essay called "The Real History of Slavery," which can be found in his excellent book, "Black Rednecks and White Liberals." (ISBN: 1-59403-143-6.

[Publicus]

Shouldn't usa sort out it's own problems before sticking their nose in every where else, Child forced labour was on TV in Australia last week in usa, illegal immigrants having to put there kids to work in orchards picking fruit etc to get enough money to survive.

After having encountered several hundred Australians during ten years in LOS, I've well learned that there's an intense and overriding anti-USA pathology in all but a few. So I'd expect such a deliberately spun, loaded and cheerfully incomplete report as you happily cite.

[geriatrickid]

Ok, so let's deal with the real issue, the locked down factory where children are basically trapped and abused. The American policy statement is about that. It is not about crushing a poor farmer that takes his kid into the work. However, it should be understood that the US does have strict laws and enforcement of migrant child labor in its own country, so at least the US has been consistent. The US is not alone in that position as almost every other western country has the same position with the EU having even stricter regulations. Nor is this about protecting the US market since the clothing products are sourced from a number of other markets as well. This is about being fair, of being able to say to countries like Costa Rica, Honduras and even Vietnam that have made an effort to stop the use of child slave labor that one country not be told to stop a practice but reward another for the very same unfair labor practices.

You can trot out all the political rhetoric you want, but it gets down to right and wrong. It is wrong to encourage and support industries that use children to work for a pittance in a dangerous environment. How many of the people condemning the US decision have even been in one of these factories? I have and they are grim. In fairness though, you can't just go and visit a factory because the operators do not want you to see a malnourished sad miserable 7 year old chlld shucking shrimp.

And again, stop fixating on the US government. I suggest people have a look at the history leading up to the policy decision. The impetus came from other countries asking the USA to support the international movement and there were delegations from Save the Children, various Church groups, social service organizations, students, and political groups that came from both the right and left that all argued/begged/pleaded for the policy statement. If the best that people can do is turn this into another blame the USA thread, thenthey need to have a bit of personal reflection time. It is amazing that all of a sudden the USA gets blamed for doing the right thing and for agreeing to support the initiatives pushed by countries in the EU. I'm sure the same people pissing all over the USA here would piss all over the Americans had the USA not supported the initiative.

[Mario2008]

I strongly suggest we debate the issue of child labour, not the US. Otherwise this thread won't have a long life.

[Publicus]

I strongly suggest we debate the issue of child labour, not the US. Otherwise this thread won't have a long life.

Respecting your strong suggestion, could you also advise that TVF didn't know that any mention of the USA in a headline would open the door to a slew of dogmatic posts predicated on a profound anti-USA pathology among many farang expats? It happens everytime. Perhaps the pathologically inclined should simply be deleted and warned towards the goal of having more rational future threads that might even remotely involve actions/decisions by the US Government.

Thanks for your consideration and intervention at this point in the thread.

[neverdie]

Sorry, I thought the thread was about " US Blacklists Thailand over child, forced Labour"?

[LuckyLew]

I strongly suggest we debate the issue of child labour, not the US. Otherwise this thread won't have a long life.

Respecting your strong suggestion, could you also advise that TVF didn't know that any mention of the USA in a headline would open the door to a slew of dogmatic posts predicated on a profound anti-USA pathology among many farang expats? It happens everytime. Perhaps the pathologically inclined should simply be deleted and warned towards the goal of having more rational future threads that might even remotely involve actions/decisions by the US Government.

Thanks for your consideration and intervention at this point in the thread.

When your country acts as worlds police you have to be

ready for people showing anti USA sentiment

[Mario2008]

It is, Neverdie, but let's not go into discussions about the US being the big bad police man of the world, being morally corrupt etc.

[blaze]

I would see the old lady in the village (KK) every year- her vision was deteriorating- cattaracts. But miracle of miracles, when I visited the year after she had announced that she was pretty well blind- her vision had returned to normal- And, coincidentally, the little boy that she was raising- and who I had known since he was five, was no longer on the scene. I asked where he was and she happily announced- staying in Bangkok.

FAst forward one year: the old lady proudly presented the boy. I asked him how long he'd stayed in Bangkok.

One year.

Had he enjoyed it?

No.

I asked him what he'd done there? Had he visited the zoo?

He had made suitcases.

Where did he live? -

in the factory.

But where did he sleep?

on the factory floor with the other children.

- Had he left the factory? No.

Only work and sleep.

He had stayed for one year.

He was pushing ten by now- and what ever childhood hed had- and he had been a very happy, fun kid- was gone. He simply sat, mumbled and stared at the floor.

I guess a year sleeping on a factory floor is a long time in the life of a nine year old.

It wasn't rocket science to understand what had happened- how the old lady had financed the eye operation. Afterwards, the people from the agency explained that this was common among the villagers.

And you know the worst thing about this memory? That old lady was a grand old soul. She really was.

[DP25]

And, China is not on the list........... what a joke! Special circumstances maybe!

This is primarily pushed through based on lobbying from the American seafood industry in order to ban their much cheaper competition, rather than anything based in reality. American shrimp farmers in the South have been SEVERELY hurt by imports, particularly from Thailand, and they need a way to ban it, regardless of how much or how little truth there is to allegations. If China is not on the list it is because it is too important for the seafood lobby to get at.

[neverdie]

It is, Neverdie, but let's not go into discussions about the US being the big bad police man of the world, being morally corrupt etc.

Okay, fair enuf, no rants on the USA and their politics, which seems to be everyones first response. Theres no denying that child labour exists & thailand should do their best to rid this practice. Western countries need to take responsibility for their part in this, theres always a blood trail that leads back to the all so wholesome nations who have been exploiting 3rd world (Develping nations) since the start of time.

Lets not forget it is also part of some of these cultures that the children help the parents on the farm and stuff like that, I don't know where western societies can stand on these issues, as I said before, some countries, including mine should look in their own backyards first.

[DP25]

Basically, for American lobbying firms that are employed to block imports to threatened industries in the US, migrant/cheap labour in other countries is always considered 'forced.' But by that logic, the US is the largest employer of forced labor in the world with the millions illegal immigrants from Mexico and South America working in horrible conditions for low wages.

[Mario2008]

There is child labour and there is child labour. Children working in a factory is something else then childen helping out the family after school. The last one is doesn't have to be bad and is often an economic necesity.

[dumball]

Blaze , I would like to thank you for your interesting and eye opening story , just maybe some people will now take note and have some understanding why groups of people and some anti-child-labour organisations , lobbied their goverment to ban CERTAIN things made/reared under these sort of deplorable conditions with child labour , being imported to America

In Thailand , the government would have given them the semi-victory sign , what they did was , blame foreigners for these deplorable working/living conditions under which children were used to swell the profits of their employers(?) .

As to all of you who consider the use of child labour in sweat factories fine and dandy ,

SHAME ON YOU , IT IS NOT AS WAS NOTED , THE SAME AS HELPING OUT IN A MOM/POP SMALL BUISINESS , NOT IN ANY WAY , SHAPE OR FORM .

[neverdie]

^ Yo dumball, Stop the shouting man, turn ur hearing aid up or whatever you need to do. Remember the doctor has warned you about getting so excited at your age.

[dumball]

='DP25' date='2009-11-27 22:24:17' post='3168380']

Basically, for American lobbying firms that are employed to block imports to threatened industries in the US, migrant/cheap labour in other countries is always considered 'forced.' But by that logic, the US is the largest employer of forced labor in the world with the millions illegal immigrants from Mexico and South America working in horrible conditions for low wages.

Please re-read your own post !!!!!!!!!!!!

You are comparing MIGRANT workers who , by and large , are employed on a seasonal basis ligitimently , to ILLEGAL (Sneakers into) a country and working against the law of that country . Would you , or could you , expect to be treated as a first class guest if you broke into a 5 star hotel and took illegal occupancy of one of the rooms ? I thought not .

[321niti123]

IMHO i dont think children working is wrong if they do of their own free-will and they dont harm any body, i dont see the harm in it.

[dumball]

What is being discussed on this thread is rampant use of shildren in sweat shops , not chidren helping at home of their own free will .

Sorry neverdie , I was not intending to shout , but many readers of posts appear to be some-what short sighted , they do not get the general gist and then type away at 999 words to the minute and expect to be understood . I am at the age where I aknowledge the fact I need both the aid of spectacles and to read a tad more carefully , some posts I have read 3 times but to no avail , they still make no sense , and I still read and understand the English language very well even when written as a second language .

Now , please do as one sodier I was encamped with when I asked him why he wrote so slowly " Well , you know Sarge , my mother is a very slow reader "

[Publicus]

What is being discussed on this thread is rampant use of shildren in sweat shops , not chidren helping at home of their own free will .

Sorry neverdie , I was not intending to shout , but many readers of posts appear to be some-what short sighted , they do not get the general gist and then type away at 999 words to the minute and expect to be understood . I am at the age where I aknowledge the fact I need both the aid of spectacles and to read a tad more carefully , some posts I have read 3 times but to no avail , they still make no sense , and I still read and understand the English language very well even when written as a second language .

Now , please do as one sodier I was encamped with when I asked him why he wrote so slowly " Well , you know Sarge , my mother is a very slow reader "

You've been more than patient and forbearing with the people who just do not get your salient and valid points. You have the patience of a saint.

[tracer]

I go to this noodle shop and noticed that many of the helpers at the shop were Burmese. One of the shop keepers said that they had to pay a 50 thousand baht fee to get official papers to allow these Burmese workers into Thailand.

I just wonder whether these Burmese workers are working under slave-labor-like conditions and whether any of their personal documents are kept by the Thai employers to prevent the Burmese laborers from running away.

I have seen quite a few restaurants where Burmese work, But after having a few chats with them and seeing what they had to do, all I can see is why they wanted them. Most Thais are very lazy in comparison...

One place had 3 Burmese, and they were still not feeling happy when they replaced them with about 9(!) Thais...

Also no idea how or what someone did to get their visa adjusted without leaving or what happened to the work permit they are supposed to have...

[neverdie]

What is being discussed on this thread is rampant use of shildren in sweat shops , not chidren helping at home of their own free will .

Sorry neverdie , I was not intending to shout , but many readers of posts appear to be some-what short sighted , they do not get the general gist and then type away at 999 words to the minute and expect to be understood . I am at the age where I aknowledge the fact I need both the aid of spectacles and to read a tad more carefully , some posts I have read 3 times but to no avail , they still make no sense , and I still read and understand the English language very well even when written as a second language .

Now , please do as one sodier I was encamped with when I asked him why he wrote so slowly " Well , you know Sarge , my mother is a very slow reader "

You've been more than patient and forbearing with the people who just do not get your salient and valid points. You have the patience of a saint.

Actually I agree with your comments, Dumball, whilst a bit stubborn in his old age, is a gentleman and a scholar......ohhh & theres not many of us left.

[DP25]

You are comparing MIGRANT workers who , by and large , are employed on a seasonal basis ligitimently , to ILLEGAL (Sneakers into) a country and working against the law of that country . Would you , or could you , expect to be treated as a first class guest if you broke into a 5 star hotel and took illegal occupancy of one of the rooms ? I thought not .

Most of these workers in Thailand are illegal too, just like in the US. There are increasing numbers of legal Burmese, but just like in the US there is a gigantic horde that has entered the country illegally looking for work. Basically, the point is the US should look at it's own house before banning seafood imports because of labour little different from their own, or own up and admit that they just want to protect their own industries.

Honestly, who do you think is going to be doing the actual manual work in the seafood factories and farms in the US if the industry picks up after banning Thai labour from Burma? It sure isn't going to be white Americans, although they will own everything and make all the profits, it's going to be poorly paid illegal Mexicans.

[dumball]

Can I tell you a secret publicus ? My wife worked to help feed her family at a very early age , having to fore-go more than a mere modicum of education , as the family increased she became self employed in her village ,and the only cash income the family had beyond selling rice excess to family feeding . Not one of them thought to teach her to even write her own name , today , the only writing she is capable of is her own name in English , she will not hear of one word against her family and is priveledged to be the one making most major decisions in her family . Despite all of this , she is able to boot up the computer , navigate her way in game set-ups and check the exchange rate of $C , she adds a pile of receipts in her head and manages all monetary matters of our household where all bills are payed on the day due , stretching dollars like rubber bands . Her passible English she learned from me and she tells people who tell her to go to school to learn more , "I only learn to speak to my husband ", but i defy you to pass almost any remark that she cannot understand , nor does she pass up humour at large .

Now for the rest of you , child labour in the proper perspective of neccessity , cannot be denied in developing nations , but in any other form it is a despicable practise which should be frowned upon by all and sundry . Defenders of these practises should be jailed along with the perpetrators , sound harsh ? Not harsh enough , they should realy be subjected to spend at least a year in the same plite as those unfortunate chidren , then see if their opinions remain the same

Publicus , I put re-enforcing wires on my halo to prevent it from dropping and making me say what I truly believe and feel about this subject , there would be no call for the mods to give me a vacation because my monitor would disintegrate with excessively high temperatures . I have no idea how these people rear their own children , but some of the remarks they have made on this thread , leaves me in great trepidation for the welfare of the products of their loins , they should be castrated to prevent more catastrophies .

Amen and good night .

[sassienie]

It is, Neverdie, but let's not go into discussions about the US being the big bad police man of the world, being morally corrupt etc.

OK than; let’s put it another way:

As regarding the internal affairs of Thailand, including child labour, this has nothing to do with the United States.

Sorry but there is no other direction this thread can go, it concerns the USA and their holier than thou ultra righteous bullying tactic policies of a small country such as Thailand, when it`s not required or wanted.

I am sure that forced child slave labour is wide spread all over the United States, therefore the Yanks are in no position to preach the rights and wrongs to Thailand and should first settle the problem at their own front door.

Edited November 27, 2009 by sassienie

[metro33777]

I am American and sometimes ashamed to admit this fact. Let's look at society and life in Thailand. Families in Thailand are much stronger and have far more values than in America. We Americans have lost what is so very important in our lives, family values. We make rules and fallow them only when it benefits ME. Our country spends billions and billions for goods from nearly every corner in the globe, so how can we possibly check and insure that every item imported has not been touched by a child earning wages? It is impossible. Here in America, young children work for little to no wages all the time. America is not the super power we attest to be. I would trade anything to be born Thai.

Oh, has anyone here heard about NAFTA? Hummmm, Mexico??? I'm sure 100% of the goods we receive from Mexico is child labor free. Yeah, and I am the tooth fairy.

www.ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/north-american-free-trade-agreement-nafta