King’s Cup Work Permit Crackdown Rumors Are False

[anon467367354]

a very reliable source told me two friends of his got arrested at a language school for not having work permits, and that is true. I haven't found anything in the news about it yet though. How can a language school offer offer work permits to all the part time teachers anyway? Does that make the language schools liable for employing people illegally?

[baramunchies]

a very reliable source told me two friends of his got arrested at a language school for not having work permits, and that is true. I haven't found anything in the news about it yet though. How can a language school offer offer work permits to all the part time teachers anyway? Does that make the language schools liable for employing people illegally?

Of course thats illegal. it's pretty dumb to work in a school without a workvisa.

But how is that related to a sports turnament?

[Mario2008]

a very reliable source told me two friends of his got arrested at a language school for not having work permits, and that is true. I haven't found anything in the news about it yet though. How can a language school offer offer work permits to all the part time teachers anyway? Does that make the language schools liable for employing people illegally?

Let's stay on topic and discuss this in the teaching forum.

[mythBuster]

Now the fun part: Who started that post and what will be the consequences for posting non-truths?

That is indeed how the authorities normally handle these cases. Freedom of press is deteriorating year after year, and Thailand has dropped from an already dismal place in the rankings under Thaksin to a place under this government that would have made the DDR proud. It would however be pretty normal to check if people working near the sailors had a work permit, after all immigration police is giving others in not so high profile events also a hard time.

[baramunchies]

I don't know how can anyone possibly come up with such a BS.

In that logic an airline and container boat captain should get work permits in every (air)port they stop?

Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

[Mario2008]

2 post from one meber containing pofanities deleted. Please keep it civil.

[LivinLOS]

Since when does anybody need a work permit to participate in sport. Let's hope the never hold the Olympics in Thailand.

As posted in the now closed Phuket thread.. Its the law visiting sportsmen need one, and 'work' is not defined through payment either.

Of course its a ridiculous catch all law, that makes everyone non Thai illegal for doing their garden, but is a way for authorities to exercise discretion (that usually costs money) whenever they feel like it. All part of the patronage system.

[xkmasada]

Somebody misread the government statement: it's Cambodian labor that is the target of the crackdown. Why would this government crack down on white people?!

[LivinLOS]

I don't know how can anyone possibly come up with such a BS.

In that logic an airline and container boat captain should get work permits in every (air)port they stop?

Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

Actually this was my specialized field, cross border employment law back in europe.

There the E101 and special dispensation system covers short term work up to 183 days and in some cases longer.

For countries not part of the OECD model convention then yes there had to be special agreements, visas and work permits, some fields also had special dispensations, long distance truck drivers, performers, specialist surgeons, etc.

[groovyc]

Instead of announcing that he won't enforce something that's (possibly) technically illegal,

They SHOULD change this RIDICULOUS LAW!

Exactly what I was wondering...

Its awesome the fela had the nerve to give out his mobile no too! TIT

In fact, anywhere else, this thread would have seemed fishier than the original!

[Sheps99]

Since when does anybody need a work permit to participate in sport. Let's hope the never hold the Olympics in Thailand.

Well, erm, every single professional footballer in the UK (who isnt from the EU) for starters.........................

I think you will find this a bit different when participating in a tournament that is only held over a short period. I have traveled all over the world officiating for the last twenty years and never been questioned about a work permit. Somebody who is living in a coutry permanent and employed in sport I think comes under a different category.

[markg]

I think you will find this a bit different when participating in a tournament that is only held over a short period. I have traveled all over the world officiating for the last twenty years and never been questioned about a work permit. Somebody who is living in a coutry permanent and employed in sport I think comes under a different category.

Your assumption would be incorrect then, but thanks for sharing your opinion

(Quoting from Tywas in the now closed Phuket thread)

The specific rule in this case for requiring a WP is the below:

5. Temporary business of entertainment, religious, social welfare, cultural or sporting without intention to make profit and paying income tax to the government.

Source: Legal Thailand

Fact remains that to do 'work' (irrespective of being in receipt of any remuneration) REQUIRES a Work Permit in Thailand.

No, really, it does! It really really really does.

Do you think when say Man United or Liverpool come for a visit they just turn up at Suvanapoom on the hope that they will get a 30 day stamp meant for tourists, of do you think the club might actually apply for the correct visa and documentation beforehand?

As we all know, in Thailand and other countries, laws are subject to some speculative interpretation. Clearly, Phuket Immigration know the ramifications of actually enforcing this law upon participants of such a high-profile event as the King's cup and have chosen to overlook it on this occasion.

That is the sensible option.

However, they will still enforce the law when it comes to teachers working illegally in language schools without a work permit.

The two situations are the same on paper but are wholly dissimilar in reality.

[Sheps99]

I am sorry but I do not think you know what you are talking about. I officiated in Bangkok with 430 athletes and officials in a world championships from all over the world and nobody had a work permit. I know Thailand can be different but, a lot of eastern block country's plus Cuba can be difficult but only with your visa.

[eggomaniac]

Again a good reason for not believing everything what is said on Thaivisa Forum :-)

Exactly.. That's why you might not want to believe that the rumors that rumors are false is true!

[nikolalu]

Somebody was talking about a Burmese factory worker and his kid and this forum advertise Bupa Medical Insurance for 10 baht a day. 555

[moe666]

The nail in the coffin must be a rumor as well.

[ericthai]

I think it's great...

..but it's also a great public example of the discretionary use of power, is it not?

I wonder whether workers in slightly less touristy places can relax as easily about their work permit situations.

'

I guess cracking down on this event could well have set a scary precedent, of interest to the countless part-time teachers doing the 'Language School' circuits in Thailand.

Happy Sailing.

You cant even compare the two. The sailors are here on a competition event, as were the teachers are here all the time teaching and making money so they need to get a work permit and pay taxes as they are working in Thailand.

For sports events such as pro golfers, tennis and any other sport events that comes to Thailand, you expect them to get a work permit? They should have some type of visa, but not a work permit.

[khundon]

Just as I thought, a rumour.

The amount of half truths and non-truths on the net is enormous, you have to be really careful what to believe.

I don't know if I should believe you.

[KKK]

RawaiDragon should be bumped off this board for spreading rumours. Or at least be banned from posting for a period of time....

[markg]

I am sorry but I do not think you know what you are talking about. I officiated in Bangkok with 430 athletes and officials in a world championships from all over the world and nobody had a work permit. I know Thailand can be different but, a lot of eastern block country's plus Cuba can be difficult but only with your visa.

Actually, we do know what we are talking about. The fact that you worked illegally in Bangkok has led you to the assumption that you didnt need a work permit. That assumption would be wrong. You did need a work permit and you should have had one.

The law is quite clear. You need a work permit to work. Really - you do ! Pro sportsmen get work permits before they come to events here. So does Madonna, Linkin Park etc etc. they have management who deal with this. The fact that you officiated without a work permit and didnt get caught is an irrelevance. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse !

Of course, the chances of getting caught are slight in a high profile event - however, imagine making the wrong decision against some well connected Thai people...................you'd soon find out that your papers were not in order and they'd kick you out of the tournament!

As a further analogy - and to paraphrase your reasoning, i substituted the word 'officiated' with 'teaching'

I taught in Bangkok with 430 students and teachers in a school with students from all over the world and nobody had a work permit.

Therefore the conclusion i have come to is that teachers don't need work permits...........................

[ericthai]

I am sorry but I do not think you know what you are talking about. I officiated in Bangkok with 430 athletes and officials in a world championships from all over the world and nobody had a work permit. I know Thailand can be different but, a lot of eastern block country's plus Cuba can be difficult but only with your visa.

Actually, we do know what we are talking about. The fact that you worked illegally in Bangkok has led you to the assumption that you didnt need a work permit. That assumption would be wrong. You did need a work permit and you should have had one.

The law is quite clear. You need a work permit to work. Really - you do ! Pro sportsmen get work permits before they come to events here. So does Madonna, Linkin Park etc etc. they have management who deal with this. The fact that you officiated without a work permit and didnt get caught is an irrelevance. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse !

Of course, the chances of getting caught are slight in a high profile event - however, imagine making the wrong decision against some well connected Thai people...................you'd soon find out that your papers were not in order and they'd kick you out of the tournament!

As a further analogy - and to paraphrase your reasoning, i substituted the word 'officiated' with 'teaching'

I taught in Bangkok with 430 students and teachers in a school with students from all over the world and nobody had a work permit.

Therefore the conclusion i have come to is that teachers don't need work permits...........................

Mark dont get all huffy and puffy on me with this as Im only asking you a question and very curious, so are you involved in getting these work permits for Madonna, Linkin park and other people involved sport events? You can say without a doubt they get work permits? I thought to get a work permit you need to work for a Thai company? Dont start quoting the law was we all know what the law says, that you can do no type of work bla bla bla, but you mean to tell me every time there is a exhibition all the exhibitors that come here they get work permits and every concert, sports event all those people are getting work permits, that you are involved in this and know as a fact? I'm just curious as I really find it hard to believe that they have Big music stars that will be in for one night get a work permit same for a football game.

Before I moved here my company would participate in exhibitions and they only told us to get B visa, but we didnt really need that since we are from the USA and could enter for 30 days, which again is wrong according to the law, but try and get a work permit if you don't have a company here and only doing an exhibition, so please confirm you are involved in getting work permits for these superstars, because Im really shocked that they would get a work permit.

[hhiser]

Again a good reason for not believing everything what is said on Thaivisa Forum :-)

I thought it was conventional wisdom NOT to believe everything you read! Although it does sound like a neat way to increase a Thai teams chances of winning the Cup.

[george]

Labour department issues special, short time work permits for artists, sports people, film crews etc. etc.

[mikebike]

Two quick thoughts here...

One, not everyone involved in yacht racing is a millionaire... some of us are working stiffs who love the sport... this is especially true for crew.

Two, Eric, yes big name entertainers do need indeed the proper visa/permits... why do you think MOST big concerts do Singapore and Hong Kong, conveniently missing BKK?

[ericthai]

Two quick thoughts here...

One, not everyone involved in yacht racing is a millionaire... some of us are working stiffs who love the sport... this is especially true for crew.

Two, Eric, yes big name entertainers do need indeed the proper visa/permits... why do you think MOST big concerts do Singapore and Hong Kong, conveniently missing BKK?

Mikebike and George, thanks for confirming this for me, i understand now that there is a special work permit for this type of event.

[markg]

Indeed. This is when the problem of what constitutes 'work' first raised its head. The authorities did indeed react poorly when genuine tourists began helping in the rebuilding effort of Thailand after the tsunami.

It's taken a long time, but i am now told that there is another class of visa specifically aimed at volunteers.

I don't know the exact wording of it, but i would think that the crew of a racing boat could be regarded as 'volunteers' on that boat.

[steveromagnino]

Before spouting total <deleted> about multi millionaire sailors a few facts.

There are 100+ boats, of which maximum of maybe 10 are worth more than $1m; there are probably 80 boats worth less than $100k USD.

Of the sailors which average out maybe 3-10 on the majority of boats, 90% are there to play, and are not paid in any way to sail by the boat owners. they pay the fees to race, a charter fee or bludge a ride on their friend's boat. They pay and bring money into the local economy in what is an amateur sporting event. 100% of the sailors pay and receive no money from any Thai entity to participate.

Of the sailors who would fit the definition of professional by any definition of the word used in sailing, it is almost impossible to prove that they are receiving financial compensation for competing in this or any other regatta.

Mostly the few guys who are racing and receive a stipend it covers their cost of living, accomodation etc - a few boat managers etc but again, many of these are Thai anyhow or have working papers for Thailand.

Sailing might seem like work to you, but when it is for no financial reward (you do not get paid and are not eligible for any financial prize officially in ANY yachting events in the Kings Cup) this is an amateur event; the issue of professional sailors is more related to people who make a living sailing and doing boat management etc. There is a way they do this around the world, and to suggest it is similar to Linkin Park coming to do a concert where a Thai organisation pays them to perform is miles (or should I say nautical miles) from how sailing works in the amateur world.

This ain't the America's Cup, Med Cup, Volvo, Monsoon Cup or any of the other professional sailing races with the chance of income. it is a large regional amateur regatta.

Comparing a fun sport to volunteer work which was political in the Tsunami (Thaksin refused financial aid and wanted to cover up much of the scale and scope of the damage) and the work permit fiasco around it are also miles apart.

Edited December 4, 2009 by steveromagnino

[Sheps99]

Well said Steve. That should put markg in his place instead of starting malicious rumours and getting everybody wound up.

[asiawatcher]

Now the fun part: Who started that post and what will be the consequences for posting non-truths?

Who really cares about a few millionaires getting nabbed by immigration while they're playing at boat racing in there 50 million dollar toys? Let's face it they probably have penny jars full of 10B coins next to the bed that can cover the whole crews immigration fines 100 times over. True or not so what?

I was in a government hospital in Nakorn Si Thammarat the otherday and some poor little Burmese kid, about 10, was missing 3 toes on one foot and his left leg which was severed just below the knee due to an industrial accident. His mum and dad didn't go to visit him for fear of deportation and he was just waiting to be well enough to be carted off back to Burma, on his own! He still had a smile on his face though.

Kicking out the millionaires and there sailing toys sounds more just to me than kicking out a 10 year old crippled Burmese factory worker. I thought child labour was illegal? Obviously more illegal than a professional sailor steering a boat without a work permit!

That is true so make your own minds up?

Valid as this may be and as angry as you are, please stick to the topic or we will end up in the slums of Cambodia talking about Khmer Rouge inclusion in the shooting Olympics ... and the confusion reigns... You can't save the world, but you could start by one at a time and go back and talk to the yachties (who are usually a good bunch) and request financial assistance to help the child and family. Turn it into a positive.

[asiawatcher]

Before spouting total <deleted> about multi millionaire sailors a few facts.

There are 100+ boats, of which maximum of maybe 10 are worth more than $1m; there are probably 80 boats worth less than $100k USD.

Of the sailors which average out maybe 3-10 on the majority of boats, 90% are there to play, and are not paid in any way to sail by the boat owners. they pay the fees to race, a charter fee or bludge a ride on their friend's boat. They pay and bring money into the local economy in what is an amateur sporting event. 100% of the sailors pay and receive no money from any Thai entity to participate.

Of the sailors who would fit the definition of professional by any definition of the word used in sailing, it is almost impossible to prove that they are receiving financial compensation for competing in this or any other regatta.

Mostly the few guys who are racing and receive a stipend it covers their cost of living, accomodation etc - a few boat managers etc but again, many of these are Thai anyhow or have working papers for Thailand.

Sailing might seem like work to you, but when it is for no financial reward (you do not get paid and are not eligible for any financial prize officially in ANY yachting events in the Kings Cup) this is an amateur event; the issue of professional sailors is more related to people who make a living sailing and doing boat management etc. There is a way they do this around the world, and to suggest it is similar to Linkin Park coming to do a concert where a Thai organisation pays them to perform is miles (or should I say nautical miles) from how sailing works in the amateur world.

This ain't the America's Cup, Med Cup, Volvo, Monsoon Cup or any of the other professional sailing races with the chance of income. it is a large regional amateur regatta.

Comparing a fun sport to volunteer work which was political in the Tsunami (Thaksin refused financial aid and wanted to cover up much of the scale and scope of the damage) and the work permit fiasco around it are also miles apart.

Yes - agree - and the visa deal is a tourist visa nonetheless - sailing a yacht for no financial reward is the same as bare boat charter. It is not deemed employment for financial gain thus probably why the Thai Brass backed down if they ever were, thinking otherwise. Maybe the Skidoo team from Phuket can find a way to bounce off the yachts and then charge more tourists with the damage - then blame the yachts for being where they were not normally sailing or encroaching on jet ski territories.`