Once You Start To See Thai Society For What It Is

[sendbaht]

Anytime I hear "judgement" I have a tendecy to think of judging others...I forget that SELF judgement falls in this catagory! thanks for the sweet reminder.

[Martied]

I'm also a bit disenchanted with Thailand after spending several months living here. Although for different reasons as the OP had. I can't begrudge a people who have had mostly nothing now able to afford better home, a nice car (well, even a car!), internet, computers etc. Although their obsession with cellphones is a bit over the top!

As one poster suggested, maybe Venezuela would be more to your liking but they do like western clothes, cellphones, computers, cars, etc etc. Probably Pakistan or Iran where they are actively putting a stop to the western influence among their people would be a paradise for you.

I intend on leaving in a few months because I know I would not be happy here, so why make the citizens here unhappy with my presence? Reasons I'm sure many have seen on this forum, too much corruption, looked at as a "farang", never being accepted as part of their society, always a target for someone, property problems etc etc...

One poster did mention how racist the US society is. I have to agree. They finally elected a president who is half black and half white, while all other progressive western and asian societies have elected a person who is...ummm...hmmmm....give me second here. I think there has to be...... Oh well, it wasn't that important.....

Good luck to the OP.....

[ThailandTigers]

Seek out the deviant Thais. Thais are human beings, you will find much variety under the superficial surface.

We see what we want to see. If you look for the good in people, you'll find it. If you look for the bad, you'll find that too. Thailand is not perfect, far from it. It has very nice aspects, and those aspects make it popular with many many people.

[whichschool]

^ whichschool..you have been "coming here", so you dont actually live here...

Even those who split time 50/50 between countries, will probably have a much different experience that people actually living here full time.

Not only that..but people with certain outlooks have different impressions/experiences, but those of different ages and different reasons for being here...those who have negative experiences..those who have been stung..those who are happy..those who live in cities..those who live in small towns.....the list could go on and on.

Yes, i agree that money/status/beauty is valued very much here..but that is not just a Thai concern. More obsessed than other countries? hmm.....i wouldnt go along with that either really.

So i am correct in my judgement of expats who live here full time thinking they have greater knowledge of life then us pig ignorant folk who lets say work away for a month then live here a month, despite many of us having the baggage of a kids living here. Thankyou for confirming my insular yet correct opinion of your breed.

Maybe it isnt just a Thai thing but money/status/beauty is more important in Asia then the evil Western world, but it seems more important in LOS then any other nation ive been to in the region.

[JR Texas]

The OP wrote: I've been visiting Thailand on and off for a couple of years now. Seems to me they're taking much of the most horrible and embarrassing aspects of western culture and taking it to a whole new level. Lots of greed, lots of status desire. Lots of materialism. Everything I hate about western society, they are taking to with incredible enthusiasm. Are they so stupid to be duped by marketeers or are they just not very free thinking people? They also seem very racist.

If I stay here will my dislike of the people continue to grow or is this the natural ebb and flow of life in the LOS?

I'm thinking it's time to get out of here before it's too late.

I have to agree........been here for 24 years.........unfortunately Thailand has really gone downhill during the past ten......much of this due to the negative influence of Mr. T. who stirred up nationalism coupled with xenophobia, and promoted massive greed and corruption.

The country has become, sadly, worse than the place I left......it has become the thing I wanted to get away from. And xenophobia has greatly increased......reflected in the way tourists and long stay expats are treated.

It has not gotten better.......only worse. Even after all of their failures, Thais do not seem able to learn from their mistakes.....so, we can expect worse things to come.

Too bad.......it really used to be a relaxed, inexpensive, fun place to visit and retire.

[clausewitz]

of this due to the negative influence of Mr. T. who stirred up nationalism coupled with xenophobia,

Yes, it was lucky PAD-democrats came along to stop the Nationlism. thank god for the Coup and that we now live in a proper democracy. I love Abhisit.

[eek]

^ whichschool..you have been "coming here", so you dont actually live here...

Even those who split time 50/50 between countries, will probably have a much different experience that people actually living here full time.

Not only that..but people with certain outlooks have different impressions/experiences, but those of different ages and different reasons for being here...those who have negative experiences..those who have been stung..those who are happy..those who live in cities..those who live in small towns.....the list could go on and on.

Yes, i agree that money/status/beauty is valued very much here..but that is not just a Thai concern. More obsessed than other countries? hmm.....i wouldnt go along with that either really.

So i am correct in my judgement of expats who live here full time thinking they have greater knowledge of life then us pig ignorant folk who lets say work away for a month then live here a month, despite many of us having the baggage of a kids living here. Thankyou for confirming my insular yet correct opinion of your breed.

Maybe it isnt just a Thai thing but money/status/beauty is more important in Asia then the evil Western world, but it seems more important in LOS then any other nation ive been to in the region.

Oh wow..you are seriously defensive. Dont put words into my mouth please, I never said any such thing. No need to be so rude. "breed"..good grief..

Plus, going on what you wrote yourself..are you not actually doing roughly the same thing that seems to get you so riled:

Op ive been coming here longer then most so this give my post more substance then most as this is how it works amongst expats,

Ie: "I have been coming here longer, thus i know more than you."

For the record, im just using that as an example, to show that your post could easily be "misread" in the same way you misread mind, please dont get on your soap box over it.

Edit: I also did not even say if I live here full time myself or not! I said that we all have different impressions based on many factors. Oh nvm...

(Reminds me of being a kid when my brother would say "I am older than you, so i know more than you". ..but we both grew up...)

Edited December 11, 2009 by eek

[yabaaaa]

IMHO

You have discerned the essence of being a farang in LOS

you will always be a despised farang be it 1 year or 20+ years residence and the locals will never stop looking to take advantage of you, poison your life or worse.

After several disastrous encounters you will find that the best course is to keep as far removed from contact with locals as practicable. Most of the long timers I know have adopted that stance. But its an empty kind of existance which old fellas become used to but not suited to young blades.

FWIW

Get out now young man and dont waste your time

I've lived in Thailand 20 years and have always had contact with "locals". Frankly, if you don't want to interact with Thai people why bother living in Thailand?

Some people, myself included, dont particularly want to interact with anyone not just Thais) I want a piece if land and a high wall, Thailand doesnt interfere with me much and that's how I like it.

[jackr]

Frankly, if you don't want to interact with Thai people why bother living in Thailand?

Umm, the weather, countryside, relaxation. It's not all about the people. I went to Oz for 15 months when I was a nipper to get away and for a bit of adventure... the people weren't even on the list of priorities, of which I enjoyed relaying many times whenever the yob element/pomme-bashers did their '<deleted> are you doing over here' spiel.

Of course, that is different to living somewhere and I certainly enjoy being around Thais - more so than those of my own ilk - and have rarely had bad vibes.

If however he makes the mistake of giving a negative view he'll be accused of generalizing and shortly afterwards told to go home.

I'd say the best course of action for the op is to just see yourself as a tourist and nothing more.

[rayong09]

Many Thais think, that farangs think, they are superior to them and look down on them.

If I can sense that in any situation then I automatically become "Humble and Friendly" and on a "level".

I don't look down on anyone and if I'm in a situation where a local is instantly unfriendly I will reverse it so they know I'm friendly and not some big, "I am" arrogant farang!

It works for me and I have lived here permanently for 3 years and love the place.

[Stumbo]

if you don't want to interact with Thai people why bother living in Thailand?

Hear, hear...

Most foreigners like to interact with Thais, mind you mostly nubile young women or impoverished hill tribe boys. Most interactions result in a cultural exchange, well some sort of exchange at any rate.

Yes, newbies will put Thailand up on a pedestal, later reality sets in. The evil Thais, unlike the West of course, want wealth, status and more wealth and comfort. Then the real shock sets in...they expect you to provide it. Filthy capitalist pigs, greedy users...etc. Ah, where to next? Hmm, Eritrea looks interesting.

[Garry9999]

Oh dear, yet another bitter old fool who thinks they are an expert on Thai society after a couple of holidays.

Actually, I think he's summed it up about right.

[wintermute]

Many Thais think, that farangs think, they are superior to them and look down on them.

Heh and they would be right. A lot of farang do harbor some racist feelings towards asians, blacks, etc.. and typically bring their baggage and perception to Thailand. Then when you combine that with Thais own prejudices you get very opaque misunderstandings.

[inquisitive]

I can certainly understand the OP's concerns. And most of the answers he received are right, despite the wide range of conflicting ideas expressed. So how can this be? Well, there are really at least three major factors and trends that have been brought out so far and there may be others still lurking beneath the surface.

One is the "you get what you give" or its sister "you get what you expect." That is true no matter the location or endeavor and it is not a new concept. About a hundred years ago and 8,000 miles away, Henry Ford said "If you think you can, or you think you can't, you are right." And he was right.

The idea of the three stages of adapting to a new culture are exactly what was taught by the Peace Corps to all volunteers about fifty years ago, though it took them a few more words to say it. In my experience, I would say they were also spot-on.

Finally, there is the point that the whole world is changing, and Thailand is no exception. Good or bad, it is hard to argue with that one as well.

So how do these all play out in making your decision to stay or leave? Well, first you should get a handle on what you are bringing to the equation. How might your own attitudes be effecting your view of the people? Obviously there is no way any human can be truly objective.

And of course, you need to then ask if you will bring this same attitude (good or bad) with to the next place if you were to leave here. To the extent that your experience here is colored by your own attitudes and expectations, you won't be able to escape them by going to a new place. Wherever you go, there you are. It is kind of like my mother used to say: you can put on clean shirt, but if your underwear stinks, you are still gonna smell.

Next, recognize that your own expectations and attitudes are going to change over time. Probably have already. Part of that is because you are older (oops, I meant you have more experience!), and part is because EVERYONE'S attitudes change over time when placed into a new culture (that three stages thing we've talked about). Can you avoid this? Will you be the one-in-in-a-hundred that has one stage only, or four stages? It could happen, but my bet is that just like crawling before walking, you will hit all three if you stay at it long enough.

Finally, there absolutely has been a large amount of change in the basic Thai value system in the last decade. The changes probably go back lots further still, but I can only vouch for the tremendous change I have seen with my own eyes. When I first came to Thailand in 1996 or so, I had very high hopes that Buddhism would keep the Thai people from making the same mistakes that America went through. I hoped that tehy would understand that happiness does not come from owning things, and happiness was more important than getting still more things. Now it is almost eery as I see the same mistakes happening here as I saw in eastern USA back in the 50's. It is a horrible shame and it is like watching your teenage kids grow up. You know they are making decisions that they will regret later, but you are powerless to do anything but watch. You can warn them, but they just plain do not want to listen. And they won't, so get over it.

When you put all three trends and concepts together, it gets hard to decipher and know what is really, really happening, and by extension, what to expect next year and next ten years from now. Sometimes it will be your own changing attitudes that make things look different, and sometimes, well, it really IS different.

Time to leave? Maybe. Up to you. Certainly you should not make the mistake of feeling you should, but letting inertia hold you back. Remember that you can always come back if you decide you made a mistake. Just don't burn your bridges, and you can hardly go wrong. Whether you decide that it is best to stay or leave, then you should follow your heart. The biggest mistake would be to let something else decide for you.

[Ulysses G.]

It has not gotten better.......only worse. Even after all of their failures, Thais do not seem able to learn from their mistakes.....so, we can expect worse things to come.

Too bad.......it really used to be a relaxed, inexpensive, fun place to visit and retire.

I have been listening to these gloom and doom complaints and predictions for over 20 years, but it still is a relaxed, inexpensive, fun place to visit and retire for many of us.

[madjbs]

People get very jealous when they realise others are happy and living an interesting life and they are not.........

What usually follows is a barrage of negative and bitter posts such as the ones that can be seen here. Of course, they will usually try and justify themselves by claiming that they see the "truth".

[pjclark1]

Many Thais think, that farangs think, they are superior to them and look down on them.

Heh and they would be right. A lot of farang do harbor some racist feelings towards asians, blacks, etc.. and typically bring their baggage and perception to Thailand. Then when you combine that with Thais own prejudices you get very opaque misunderstandings.

I think I am superior to Thais, but I don't believe that I am at all a racist.

I simply believe that I am superior to everyone else ...... so fair dos all around.

(Of course that is a pretty wide generalisation, I do admit to have met 3 or 4 people in my life who I felt were my equal, I don't remember their ethnic background but one of them was female, none of us ever got on)

So there you are, I look down on you all from a very great height!

[maccaroni man]

IMHO

You have discerned the essence of being a farang in LOS

you will always be a despised farang be it 1 year or 20+ years residence and the locals will never stop looking to take advantage of you, poison your life or worse.

After several disastrous encounters you will find that the best course is to keep as far removed from contact with locals as practicable. Most of the long timers I know have adopted that stance. But its an empty kind of existance which old fellas become used to but not suited to young blades.

FWIW

Get out now young man and dont waste your time

I agree. I have been living for 5 years in Thailand. Not all year long but most of it. I am 36 years old and I don't want to have contacts with Thais. I am married with a Thai lady who dislikes Thais. She feels the same way as you and I do. We live in our own "bubble", protected from most of the other Thais and we have almost only farang friends. And we are happy this way. I am sure there are people in this country with decent moral values (for my standards), but they are not the majority. Therefore I spend my money here, enjoy the beach with my farang friends and I don't want to be close to any other Thais except my wife.

I think you shall enjoy the good things in this country and avoid the bad ones. That's why I have only farang friends. And that's why I am happy here.

Relationships out here are business orientated, if you have no business, you appear to have no relationship.

I quite enjoy it out here, it is certainly a paradise for me compared to the western world.

I agree

give it a couple of more yrs and you will dump the farang too, then you will be in a happy safe bubble

[dumball]

I do not think the OP was a barrage of bitter and negative points , his was an expression or thoughts concerning how 'He as an individual' felt from his own respective viewpoint , is that not the purpose of an open forum ? . Dyed in the wool Thai-ites always seem to go into total defensive mode , almost immediatly followed by extreme attack , why is this ? Do they realy want to emulate the Thai attitude to that extent , because that is where the Thai had slid down to during the seven years I lived amongst them . I personaly am a very friendly person and their attitude became too much to bear , I left for the neighbour and all I can say is I wish I had done it sooner . Thailand is a fantastic country with a multitude of places to visit and things to do , one can not deny that , but government any many of the citizens put a huge downgrade opon that wondrefull country . Please have your own opinion , but stop your infernal ranting off at the mouth towards others whos opinion does not aligne with your selfish own , you are doing to this forum what the Thai are doing to expats and visitors alike , chasing them away .

[Garry9999]

Did this thread just merge with the What Is It That Some Folk Find So Offensive? thread?

[dumball]

I got into that thread after posting here , yes they do seem to be closly aligned .

[rick75]

I am Gob Smacked by the vitriolic posts, I think when the rose coloured glasses come off people turn feral on the country and its people, I get frustrated at some things that go on around me, maybe its due to my age, early thirties, but I like the country and most of its people. I find if you are not in a tourist area the Thais are friendly and welcoming, they are happy you try to speak there language even though you may do it badly, I can not imagine people saying they go out of there way to not interact with Thais, as others have said I think a lot of the negativity some people find is a mirror image of what they project

[geriatrickid]

Three stages to life in Thailand

1.Thailand is paradise, the people are wonderful everythign is perfect.

Disillusion sets in and then you hit stage 2. Thailand is awful, Thai people are horrible, its a hel_l on earth

and finally stage 3, which some people never reach: Thailand is just a place, like any other, with good and bad people like everywhere else.

Common sense on a thread which elicits venom.

Will reason and intelligence, win out?

Stay tuned for more vitriole

[caf]

I said it on another thread some time ago but it's worth repeating here: what most people are willing to say about most Thais is more reflective of those speaking than it is of the Thais.

As a corollary- there are all kinds of people out there in Thailand (there would have to be, right?). If it seems you are only meeting one kind of person, what is the common denominator, then?

What people are saying about Thais is from observation. As several posters are commenting. Nothing to do with "more reflective of those speaking"

Edited December 11, 2009 by caf

[rick75]

I said it on another thread some time ago but it's worth repeating here: what most people are willing to say about most Thais is more reflective of those speaking than it is of the Thais.

As a corollary- there are all kinds of people out there in Thailand (there would have to be, right?). If it seems you are only meeting one kind of person, what is the common denominator, then?

What people are saying about Thais is from observation. As several posters are commenting. Nothing to do with "more reflective of those speaking"

So you don't think who you are, how you carry yourself and whom you mix with has any bearing on your opinion of the world around you.

[phetaroi]

...I don't consider myself a fool

Not saying you are one, but fools never consider themselves to be fools. Well, except for Clem Kadiddlehopper ("I may be dumb, but I ain't stupid!").

[BLUEEYEDTHAI]

IMHO

You have discerned the essence of being a farang in LOS

you will always be a despised farang be it 1 year or 20+ years residence and the locals will never stop looking to take advantage of you, poison your life or worse.

After several disastrous encounters you will find that the best course is to keep as far removed from contact with locals as practicable. Most of the long timers I know have adopted that stance. But its an empty kind of existance which old fellas become used to but not suited to young blades.

FWIW

Get out now young man and dont waste your time

Thais are just people man,trying to make it in this world like you ,and me, and everyone.Some are bad, some are worse.Some are good,and some are better.Cut Thais and yourself some slack,live life,enjoy!

I've lived in Thailand 20 years and have always had contact with "locals". Frankly, if you don't want to interact with Thai people why bother living in Thailand?

[phetaroi]

How you see the Thais, thats how they see you, If you come to this country thinking that you deserve respect- without giving respect, you will be disillusioned;

...

Thais are discriminatory, I think not ! if you want to live in a racist society, go to the U.S.!

...

Exactly. I don't find Thais to be any more racist and probably less so than most cultures. You don't have to go to America to find xenophobia. The worst xenophobia I've even seen is right here among these posts on TV, and it's against the Thais.

[phetaroi]

I am happy to interact with Thai ladies.

I am always polite to Thai ladyboys.

I rarely have any interaction with Thai men, we simply have nothing the other wants.

Relationships out here are business orientated, if you have no business, you appear to have no relationship.

I quite enjoy it out here, it is certainly a paradise for me compared to the western world.

You have a very tiny perspective of the world that is Thailand.

[Garry9999]

I am happy to interact with Thai ladies.

I am always polite to Thai ladyboys.

I rarely have any interaction with Thai men, we simply have nothing the other wants.

Relationships out here are business orientated, if you have no business, you appear to have no relationship.

I quite enjoy it out here, it is certainly a paradise for me compared to the western world.

You have a very tiny perspective of the world that is Thailand.

Or maybe he's right and you have the "tiny perspective of the world that is Thailand"