Cambodia's King Pardons Thai Engineer Convicted Of Spying

[Credo]

So the Embassy staff who called and inquired about it are in on the conspiracy?

[NCFC]

Irresepective of the hows and whys of the whole thing, at least now the mother of the engineer will at least have some peace, as i'm fairly sure that she has been unwillingly thrust into a diplomatic row and the glare of the media spotlight and now hopefully she can retire and get on with her life.

As for the pardon. Maybe his majesty, was just sick of the whole thing tit for tat bulls**t and just wanted to end it. Either way I think all both Thai and Cambodian should be grateful for his release and as hopefully an end to this diplomatic farce is reached.

It'll be interesting though to hear the thoughts of the engineer when he returns to Thailand.

For those of you who have failed to notice, there is a deeper lesson in all of this, that Thaksin is surely trying to communicate to the Thai people.

There is, I would say, at least one feature of the Cambodian idea of constitutional monarchy that Thaksin would like to replicate at home.

In Cambodia, it is Hun Sen - the Prime Minister - who calls the shots and it is (seemingly) the Monarch who dutifully follows suit.

The Cambodian King issued a pardon, after Hun Sen asked for it. Hun Sen asked for it, because Thaksin asked for it.

This is an object lesson in how Thaksin would like to see things working back home.

The all-powerful PM for life, the figurehead Monarch, at best just 'rubber stamping' the PM's decrees.

No wonder he and Hun Sen are being all chummy ... he is saying to the Thai people - "Look at how well things work in Cambodia. Why can't -our- democracy function just as effectively? All you have to do is get rid of the democrats and the old power clique, and everyone would get along famously".

It seems too contrived to just be a coincidence.

But isn't that the way that constitutional monarchies are supposed to work in a democracy? What other way would you do it?

[ratcatcher]

and if H90 is suspended (again) I will raise CAIN.

Will you be ABEL to raise CAIN?

[A_Traveller]

So the Embassy staff who called and inquired about it are in on the conspiracy?

What has been forgotten is that the request for information was after the plane had touched down. It might well have been unwise, but 'spying' was in reality a reach, but suited a number of the players.

Regards

[Scott]

And did the request for information involve the return flight?

[A_Traveller]

^ That wasn't the claim made by any party that I remember. The flight plan would be filed prior to take-off not x days prior, and at least in public there was some confusion as to how long he was going to stay IIRC. Also was the plane used to take Thaksin to Siem Reap [anyone know] ?

Since [yes I'm assuming here] that the plane was a rental then does anyone know its movements. Did it remain on the tarmac either at PNH or REP during Thaksin's perorations?

Regards

[hammered]

Here is an interesting analysis from a Cambodian perspective:

http://khmerization.blogspot.com/2009/12/h...tical-pawn.html

[steveromagnino]

While the present government jumps up and down and screams, Thaksin manages to get something done. Interesting.

I was not aware that simply getting on a plane and setting a flight path to avoid a country where he has been charged to land somewhere else garners the applause when he 'manages to get something done'.

Just today I managed to get on the BTS and avoid going to the Nana area where I owe several ladies. Perhaps I too, can consider myself a strong candidate for running a country, after all, I too have 'managed to get something done.'

And let me tell you, the women in the nana area, now that is 'interesting'

When you have political theatre, as the government best to not stoop to the level of a 5 year old.

Because only another 5 year old will appreciate such a transparently childish performance. Sadly, 5 years old kids don't vote (mostly) - adults do.

[TAWP]

While the present government jumps up and down and screams, Thaksin manages to get something done. Interesting.

You mean, found an armed and violent uprising to overthrow an legitimate government? Wasn't that something some of you members was so against...?

[JulesMad]

Anybody really surprised?!?

Maybe they can make a musical about the Thailand-Cambodia relationship Enough action and lots of actors...

[BangkokJazz]

This whole situation, from onset to outcome has been planned and carried out by Thaksin and Hun Sen, in an effort to make Thaksin look good (his motive) and damage Thailand's credibility (Hun Sen's motive). Not really sure either succeeded. Certainly won't miraculously change anyone's mind. Glad to see this story fade away. In a related matter, all Thaksin can hear is - Tick, Tick, Tick. Time is winding down before his family's money gets seized. Look for more desparate provocations in the next weeks.

[hammered]

This whole situation, from onset to outcome has been planned and carried out by Thaksin and Hun Sen, in an effort to make Thaksin look good (his motive) and damage Thailand's credibility (Hun Sen's motive). Not really sure either succeeded. Certainly won't miraculously change anyone's mind. Glad to see this story fade away. In a related matter, all Thaksin can hear is - Tick, Tick, Tick. Time is winding down before his family's money gets seized. Look for more desparate provocations in the next weeks.

It wont go away. PTP will use it in the censure motion which may or may not be to their advantage. They will also have Sivarak make statements as he owes them for release. (we may also see a response from PAD who have already claimed they have pictures of his family at red events) It is a poltical play pure and simple but the denouement has yet to be determined and is unpredictable as the PTP PR plan has not gained the traction they thought it would yet and may not still. Only a handful of PTP turned up for the release ceremony and Chavalit didnt. This has led some analysts to conclude that PTP are concerned the PR plan has been to easy for people to see and has left them in a bad light.

Please note I am not saying that the "spy" was anything other than a victim but am talking about the poltics around the issue.

[clausewitz]

This whole situation, from onset to outcome has been planned and carried out by Thaksin and Hun Sen,.

It is a poltical play pure and simple but the denouement has yet to be determined and is unpredictable as the PTP PR plan has not gained the traction they thought it would yet and may not still. Only a handful of PTP turned up for the release ceremony and Chavalit didnt. This has led some analysts to conclude that PTP are concerned the PR plan has been to easy for people to see and has left them in a bad light.

Please note I am not saying that the "spy" was anything other than a victim but am talking about the poltics around the issue.

when hun sen and Thasin planned all this how did they get that Thai embassy official to agree to ring up the 'spy' and ask him for the information.. You think he is on Thaksin's team?

[clausewitz]

Irresepective of the hows and whys of the whole thing, at least now the mother of the engineer will at least have some peace, as i'm fairly sure that she has been unwillingly thrust into a diplomatic row and the glare of the media spotlight and now hopefully she can retire and get on with her life.

As for the pardon. Maybe his majesty, was just sick of the whole thing tit for tat bulls**t and just wanted to end it. Either way I think all both Thai and Cambodian should be grateful for his release and as hopefully an end to this diplomatic farce is reached.

It'll be interesting though to hear the thoughts of the engineer when he returns to Thailand.

For those of you who have failed to notice, there is a deeper lesson in all of this, that Thaksin is surely trying to communicate to the Thai people.

There is, I would say, at least one feature of the Cambodian idea of constitutional monarchy that Thaksin would like to replicate at home.

In Cambodia, it is Hun Sen - the Prime Minister - who calls the shots and it is (seemingly) the Monarch who dutifully follows suit.

The Cambodian King issued a pardon, after Hun Sen asked for it. Hun Sen asked for it, because Thaksin asked for it.

This is an object lesson in how Thaksin would like to see things working back home.

The all-powerful PM for life, the figurehead Monarch, at best just 'rubber stamping' the PM's decrees.

No wonder he and Hun Sen are being all chummy ... he is saying to the Thai people - "Look at how well things work in Cambodia. Why can't -our- democracy function just as effectively? All you have to do is get rid of the democrats and the old power clique, and everyone would get along famously".

It seems too contrived to just be a coincidence.

But isn't that the way that constitutional monarchies are supposed to work in a democracy? What other way would you do it?

Curious about that myself..

[Scott]

I apologies for sounding facetious. I am happy that he was released and I hope that the whole situation may be behind us, sooner rather than later.

[Siripon]

How did the Cambodians know about the telephone call? Did they tap the phones?

[hammered]

This whole situation, from onset to outcome has been planned and carried out by Thaksin and Hun Sen,.

It is a poltical play pure and simple but the denouement has yet to be determined and is unpredictable as the PTP PR plan has not gained the traction they thought it would yet and may not still. Only a handful of PTP turned up for the release ceremony and Chavalit didnt. This has led some analysts to conclude that PTP are concerned the PR plan has been to easy for people to see and has left them in a bad light.

Please note I am not saying that the "spy" was anything other than a victim but am talking about the poltics around the issue.

when hun sen and Thasin planned all this how did they get that Thai embassy official to agree to ring up the 'spy' and ask him for the information.. You think he is on Thaksin's team?

If you read what I say I am talking about the politics and PR around the issue.

As someone else said how did the Cambodians know of the phone call? There are no good guys in this but the poltical and PR game is interesting and to date nobody seems to be nailing it. It really is silly to unquestioningly believe either what team red or yellow or either government say on this or even the dude involved.

[TAWP]

Maybe they know about the phone call because 1) it is not true but they invented it or 2) the engineer told them or 3) they have a tap on all outgoing non-scrambled landlines from the embassies.

Take your pick?

[BangkokJazz]

This whole situation, from onset to outcome has been planned and carried out by Thaksin and Hun Sen,.

It is a poltical play pure and simple but the denouement has yet to be determined and is unpredictable as the PTP PR plan has not gained the traction they thought it would yet and may not still. Only a handful of PTP turned up for the release ceremony and Chavalit didnt. This has led some analysts to conclude that PTP are concerned the PR plan has been to easy for people to see and has left them in a bad light.

Please note I am not saying that the "spy" was anything other than a victim but am talking about the poltics around the issue.

when hun sen and Thasin planned all this how did they get that Thai embassy official to agree to ring up the 'spy' and ask him for the information.. You think he is on Thaksin's team?

Of course. Thaksin provided the only way he could get out of jail. If I was in jail for a trivial reason, I would dance naked, painted red, with red feathers shoved up my butt, if it would help someone use their power to get me out of there.

[Ricardo]

I understand that his release-ceremony yesterday was televised, and that Hun Sen had his arm over the engineer's shoulders, which seems a curious way to treat a convicted-spy, hmmm ... TiK, perhaps ?

[Insight]

Bangkok Pundit is on fire over this one, passionately defending Cambodian's actions (4 blog entries about it in the past 24hrs). It's this comment that really made me laugh:

So why won't The Nation talk about the Thai process instead of making out that this kind of thing only happens in Cambodia? They are spineless hypocrites that is why.

Grrrr!

[jayjayjayjay]

Well of course he did. I'm sure it happened as soon as Thaksin's "investment donation check" cleared....

I actually think most Thai people will recognize this for what it is - a farce.

A farce which let appear Thai Soap Operas logical and reasonable.

PT is asking Kasit to resign because of the damage he has done for the Thai Engineer.

What a nonsense.....

What will happen 2010??

Thaksin+Chavalit dressed as Batman and Robin will rescue Thai people from Nordkorea.

Kim Il will complain about the lack of democracy in Thailand and appoint Thaksin as Economos advisor.........

h90, given your stance, read this piece from a real newspaper. It is balanced but comes to a just conclusion. Your heros need to be brought into line as much as Mr T or Mr C.

Google the piece yourself and read the article in full:

Undone by affairs foreign to ministry

Atiya Achakulwisut is Editorial Pages Editor, Bangkok Post.

[hammered]

Bangkok Pundit is on fire over this one, passionately defending Cambodian's actions (4 blog entries about it in the past 24hrs). It's this comment that really made me laugh:

So why won't The Nation talk about the Thai process instead of making out that this kind of thing only happens in Cambodia? They are spineless hypocrites that is why.

Grrrr!

Every media outlet whether tradtional or non-tradtional has their bias. This includes the BPundit blog which some like to highlight. It is worth a read but critically as full media content analysis reveals it as quite bias as does content analysis of the Nation.

Anyone who thinks the media is or ever could be fair and balanced in the real meaning is probably delusional or a news magnate anyway. Lets actually celebrate the differences in line that different media bring us and learn to make our own decisions apart from those fed by the various media, and lest definitely foregt this myth that the media are somehow going to report things as they really are. That never has been done and never will be.

[Steve2UK]

Bangkok Pundit is on fire over this one, passionately defending Cambodian's actions (4 blog entries about it in the past 24hrs). It's this comment that really made me laugh:

So why won't The Nation talk about the Thai process instead of making out that this kind of thing only happens in Cambodia? They are spineless hypocrites that is why.

Grrrr!

Every media outlet whether tradtional or non-tradtional has their bias. This includes the BPundit blog which some like to highlight. It is worth a read but critically as full media content analysis reveals it as quite bias as does content analysis of the Nation.

Anyone who thinks the media is or ever could be fair and balanced in the real meaning is probably delusional or a news magnate anyway. Lets actually celebrate the differences in line that different media bring us and learn to make our own decisions apart from those fed by the various media, and lest definitely foregt this myth that the media are somehow going to report things as they really are. That never has been done and never will be.

It's not clear to me why anyone would expect a blog e.g Bangkok Pundit or a conspicuously angled newspaper e.g. The Nation to perform as if it were the president of some kind of authoritative tribunal delivering a final verdict that settles the matter for good. By the same analogy, each of those mentioned is at most the proposer of a case with (one hopes) some credible evidence along the way to support the case they make. The ultimate verdict is yours (speaking generally here) and mine - not theirs - and we may well differ according to what we individually make of the cases made and evidence put.

Speaking of evidence, while "creative writing" is a familiar concept..... "creative reading" is still new to me. With that in mind, I'd be fascinated to know which parts of the four Bangkok Pundit blog posts mentioned by Insight he sees as examples of "passionately defending Cambodian's actions". Even the one line (out of four lengthy posts) which he selects to quote doesn't show it. It does criticise The Nation directly and by extension the Thai process - which is not the same thing

For those who like to make up their own mind, the blog posts are here: http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog

Edited December 15, 2009 by Steve2UK

[Steve2UK]

THAI-CAMBODIA DISPUTE

Sivarak: My phone talks were recorded

By THE NATION

Published on December 16, 2009

Pardoned Thai "spy" Sivarak Chutipong has revealed that the Cambodian authorities recorded his phone conversations with a senior Thai diplomat, leading to his arrest and conviction in Phnom Penh.

Sivarak told Thai Rath online he knew his conversations with first secretary Kamrob Palawatwichai had been recorded. This account was likely to rekindle speculation that Phnom Penh had been tapping the communications of Thai citizens and diplomats.

The Cambodians apparently built their spy charges against Sivarak around Kamrob's alleged request for Thaksin Shinawatra's flight plan when he visited Phnom Penh last month, and Sivarak's action afterwards.

"I knew our conversations had been recorded," he told Thai Rath. He had said that he thought those phone conversations were normal.

Sivarak told Thai Rath he held no grudges against Kamrob, who he said had not contacted him since his return to Thailand on Monday.

Sivarak was last week sentenced to seven years in jail but later promptly pardoned by the Cambodian king. He returned to Thailand on Monday but the Thai government was very cautious about any sign of improvement in soured bilateral ties.

The improvement of Thai-Cambodian ties will hinge on three conditions - respect for the Thai judiciary, non-interference in internal affairs and a Cambodian review of the appointment of fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra as adviser - the deputy secretary-general to the prime minister said yesterday.

"The return of the Thai engineer [sivarak Chutipong] is a good sign - but bilateral ties will depend on how Cambodia meets the three conditions," Panitan Wattanayagorn said.

Thailand will neither set a timetable for the next move by Cambodia nor make any demands for diplomatic normalisation, he said, reaffirming to uphold good neighbourly relations while Phnom Penh ponders its decision.

He said Cambodia's decision to back a Thai fugitive like Thaksin had made it impossible for Thailand to maintain bilateral ties under normal circumstances.

In regard to the involvement of Thai diplomat Kamrob Palawatwichai in the Sivarak legal wrangling, he said the Foreign Ministry would clarify pertinent issues in due time, as Sivarak had already returned to his homeland.

"Pending the green light from his ministry, Kamrob is expected to release a written statement to explain his role," he said, ruling out a call for Kamrob to give an interview in person.

Panitan hinted, however, that there would be no objection if Kamrob were also to seek a personal meeting with Sivarak to present his side of the story.

He said the Sivarak case, which prompted Thaksin's second trip to Cambodia, was a ploy designed to discredit the government and the Thai justice system.

Thai citizens should not fall prey to such ploys since political stability is the key to economic recovery, he said.

He added that Thaksin might also have a second motive: boosting the morale of the red shirts, currently seen as in disarray.

"Since negotiations aimed at eluding his judicial conviction cannot materialise, Thaksin is doing everything to sway the masses in order to pressure for a general election that he hopes would pave the way to get out of his legal trouble," Panitan said.

Thaksin yesterday accused the Foreign Ministry of ordering Kamrob to spy on his flight information when he landed in Phnom Penh last month.

Kamrob received a call from Bangkok and later called Sivarak, who worked for Cambodia Air Traffic Services, to ask for the flight schedule, Thaksin said in his Internet radio show.

When Kamrob got the information from Sivarak, he rushed to inform Bangkok, Thaksin said, without specifying what he meant by "Bangkok".

The Foreign Ministry, of which he was once a minister, had mobilised all resources to hurt him and caused much trouble for the Thai national and relations with a neighbouring country, the ex-PM added.

-- The Nation December 16, 2009

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/12/16...cs_30118610.php

[Insight]

Speaking of evidence, while "creative writing" is a familiar concept..... "creative reading" is still new to me. With that in mind, I'd be fascinated to know which parts of the four Bangkok Pundit blog posts mentioned by Insight he sees as examples of "passionately defending Cambodian's actions". Even the one line (out of four lengthy posts) which he selects to quote doesn't show it. It does criticise The Nation directly and by extension the Thai process - which is not the same thing

For those who like to make up their own mind, the blog posts are here: http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog

I would say that repeatedly comparing the Cambodian justice system to the Thai justice system in this case is passionately defending it. It's not the Thai justice system under question here after all, and it does appear to be the only method of refuting The Nation's articles.

As far as pro-Thaksin rags go, I actually think Pundit is a decent read and does a good job of presenting some difficult arguments to anti-Thaksinites like myself. However I originally citied the above quote as it's pretty clear he's gone a bit west of his usual standard.

Then again, I would hate to be tasked with defending this one also

[hammered]

Bangkok Pundit is on fire over this one, passionately defending Cambodian's actions (4 blog entries about it in the past 24hrs). It's this comment that really made me laugh:

So why won't The Nation talk about the Thai process instead of making out that this kind of thing only happens in Cambodia? They are spineless hypocrites that is why.

Grrrr!

Every media outlet whether tradtional or non-tradtional has their bias. This includes the BPundit blog which some like to highlight. It is worth a read but critically as full media content analysis reveals it as quite bias as does content analysis of the Nation.

Anyone who thinks the media is or ever could be fair and balanced in the real meaning is probably delusional or a news magnate anyway. Lets actually celebrate the differences in line that different media bring us and learn to make our own decisions apart from those fed by the various media, and lest definitely foregt this myth that the media are somehow going to report things as they really are. That never has been done and never will be.

It's not clear to me why anyone would expect a blog e.g Bangkok Pundit or a conspicuously angled newspaper e.g. The Nation to perform as if it were the president of some kind of authoritative tribunal delivering a final verdict that settles the matter for good. By the same analogy, each of those mentioned is at most the proposer of a case with (one hopes) some credible evidence along the way to support the case they make. The ultimate verdict is yours (speaking generally here) and mine - not theirs - and we may well differ according to what we individually make of the cases made and evidence put.

Speaking of evidence, while "creative writing" is a familiar concept..... "creative reading" is still new to me. With that in mind, I'd be fascinated to know which parts of the four Bangkok Pundit blog posts mentioned by Insight he sees as examples of "passionately defending Cambodian's actions". Even the one line (out of four lengthy posts) which he selects to quote doesn't show it. It does criticise The Nation directly and by extension the Thai process - which is not the same thing

For those who like to make up their own mind, the blog posts are here: http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog

It is not actually me saying the quoted part in your post.

I am just talking of all outlets being bias in both reporting and analysis. Nation and B Pundit both do it. Both also have an angle which is fine.

Over the Cambodian "spy' saga it has been partcularly bad. While all have reproted what the Cambodian government, Thai government and Thai oppsotion have said nobody has bothered with what the Cambodian opposition have said (whihc is subtly different from the other three's lines) which is unbalanced reporting for a start and means any anlysis is an utter waste of time. Unoless of course we accept that the Nation and B Pundit are just propaganda outlets which in reality is what all media outlets are until we mistakenly try to graft on some weird notions of professional reproting, professional editing and owners not interferring in editorials which are indeed ludicrous notions in modern media and modern belief based societies. Where Rush and Murdoch stepped yesterday so all follow today

Dont waste time relying on any individual sources imho unless of course one happens to be someone who likes reading what they agree with. Personally I prefer to read what I dont agree with.

[webfact]

The engineer has been pardoned and has returned already to Thailand.

The Foreign Minister has given a statement on Wednesday

Topic continues here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Foreign-Mini...es-t322441.html

//CLOSED//