Employed 5.5mo, No Salary, Work Permit, Contract

[TimTang]

I need advice because I've been seriously ripped-off by someone I used to consider a friend that ultimately became my Boss.

My friend (The Boss) has a company registered in Thailand and was losing one of his best employees, so asked me if I would replace him when he left. I was qualified to do the IT side of the responsibilities but the rest of the job was new to me so I was a little reluctant at first but he kept insisting, so I eventually agreed to give it my best effort. I sat in with the soon-to-leave employee to absorb as much as I could in his last remaining two weeks.

The Boss was happy with my performance and was pleased that I put in a great deal of effort to learn an industry I previously knew nothing about, so I was hired for the position at 50 thousand baht/month. I was told that I would eventually be getting a work permit but he wanted to wait for business to improve a little before doing so. The industry was going through a slump at the time so I assumed that it probably had something to do money. I was on a non-O visa at the time so I was not worried about having to leave the country but I was concerned that I was expected to work with out a permit. He assured me not to worry everything will be taken care of soon.

The end of the first month came and went but I never received my salary. I was concerned and asked about it, but he assured me not to worry and promised me I will be paid eventually. Anyway one month led to the next and I was repeatedly told not to worry a work permit will come and all my wages will eventually be paid. This mantra was really starting to try my patience.

After about 5.5 months this was taking a serious toll on my family and myself. I was in a bit of a canundrum because I wasn't crazy about staying there but I had invested a lot of time and energy into the job and I couldn't really afford to quit. I actually had to borrow 40 thousand baht from a friend on two occasions. He lent me the money because I reiterated what I had been told. He was an acquaintance of my Boss and, like myself, felt he had no reason not to believe him. I was getting very frustrated by this time and confronted my Boss, explaining that I felt insecure working with no work permit and could he at least pay a portion of my wage because I have a family to support. His response was "I have a family to support too; do you want me to support your family as well?" This humiliating remark was all that I could take so I walked out, never to return.

I've sent emails intermittently over a one year period requesting my salary owed but never received any response. Finally this month asked for 5 months salary and one month severance or I will take the case to the Dept. of Labour. All I got was a message that said his Lawyer is on vacation but we should just get together for a talk. I have no intentions of talking after all this time, and after repeatedly promising me that I would be paid, the only thing he could possibly say is "I really mean it this time" which I wouldn't believe anyway, or he could just say "I have no intension of paying you anything" which I would believe.

The biggest problem with my dispute is that the contract was verbal and the work permit was always something that was coming but never came. The only proof I have that I worked there is the daily correspondence in the email archives, as it is the primary job procedure. I also have a database I created, first as a learning tool (so I would never have to repeat the same question twice), also to more efficiently perform my job, and to record my daily activities. I was very enthusiastic about the job and worked on my database evenings and on weekends and was on a very fast track learning regimen. I was actually complimented on my progress and only received occasional constructive criticism for things I was nieve about. Never at any time was I told that my performance was poor.

I need advice as to whether I have any rights at all, and what would be the best way to resolve this dispute. I'm not seeking revenge I just want to be paid for services rendered. No one should be expected to work almost half a year with no salary what-so-ever. Even if my performance was below standard you'd expect to be told so; which I wasn't.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

[Spoonman]

Do you think the kind folk over on Teak Door were feeding you a load of cock and bull ??

[TimTang]

Do you think the kind folk over on Teak Door were feeding you a load of cock and bull ??

No, I've actually got some good advise but I couldn't actually post in the Legal section because apparently you need some sort of authorized membership.

Fortunately most responders have been pretty tame and I haven't been flamed too badly. I've found in the past that on Thaivisa sometimes Lawyers respond.

[opalhort]

To OP:

Go to the central Labour court in BKK with all the papers you have.

They have help desks and some officers speak English but a Thai speaking person could make things easier.

That you did not have a WP is not an issue with the Labour court as long as your stay in Thailand is legal (visa/extension etc.).

If you have a witness to your conversation with your boss in this regard take him/her along.

No Lawyer is needed.

Ask them for advise about how to proceed.

opalhort

[Nio]

Instead of being on the defensive, go on the offensive

A person that cannot pay salary surely cannot afford to pay a lawyer either.

Since you are covered with a O visa I would go after this guy.

It sounds like he has no plans to pay so why not put him in the position where he has has a choice to have his whole operation scrutizined by the labor department.

I am sure having you work there with no permit, first he broke the law (also did not have mandatory 4 thais working alongside you) and he will not want to draw attention to his business faults.

However, if you keep verbally sparing with this guy you will get no where except wasting time.

File a way and make your ex boss put up what he owes.

Good luck

[TimTang]

...That you did not have a WP is not an issue with the Labour court as long as your stay in Thailand is legal (visa/extension etc.)...

Thank you for the response opalhort; very informative.

Are you confident about the WP statement. One of the things I'm worried about, even more-so than receiving my wages owed, is filing a case with the Dept. of Labor then ending up in jail for breaking a law. At that time I was legally in Thailand, as I am now, on a Non-O visa.

[opalhort]

DO NOT file anything with the police!!! They will have an issue about no WP.

The Labour court is not part of the Labour department.

You have worked for a certain period under 'probation' and the promise of a WP which never came. You are clear in this regard.

I have been in this situation in 1985/86. Had only verbal agreement and promise of WP. Did receive part of agreed salary (50%) but after one year never got WP and full payment.

I claimed balance of agreed salary at the labour court (I did have two witnesses to the verbal agreement who supported my point) and finally got paid everything pending including interest based on court order.

In any case there is no harm in going to the central Labour court in BKK and consult the staff there what possible action is open to you. You DO NOT need a lawyer, but it may be helpfull to have a Thai speaking person with you who can understand basic legal procedures and the basic requirements on your part.

opalhort

Edited December 17, 2009 by opalhort

[TimTang]

Instead of being on the defensive, go on the offensive

A person that cannot pay salary surely cannot afford to pay a lawyer either.

Since you are covered with a O visa I would go after this guy.

It sounds like he has no plans to pay so why not put him in the position where he has has a choice to have his whole operation scrutizined by the labor department.

I am sure having you work there with no permit, first he broke the law (also did not have mandatory 4 thais working alongside you) and he will not want to draw attention to his business faults.

However, if you keep verbally sparing with this guy you will get no where except wasting time.

File a way and make your ex boss put up what he owes.

Good luck

DO NOT file anything with the police!!! They will have an issue about no WP.

The Labour court is not part of the Labour department.

You have worked for a certain period under 'probation' and the promise of a WP which never came. You are clear in this regard.

I have been in this situation in 1985/86. Had only verbal agreement and promise of WP. Did receive part of agreed salary (50%) but after one year never got WP and full payment.

I claimed balance of agreed salary at the labour court (I did have two witnesses to the verbal agreement who supported my point) and finally got paid everything pending including interest based on court order.

In any case there is no harm in going to the central Labour court in BKK and consult the staff there what possible action is open to you. You DO NOT need a lawyer, but it may be helpfull to have an intelligent Thai speaking person with you.

opalhort

Thanks for the support and advise to both NIO and OPALHORT, it's very encouraging.

[12DrinkMore]

There are so many people who have been ripped off. I would guess that at some time, we have all been ripped off.

In this case my advice would be to forget it, put it behind you and find a new life.

And next time around recognise the warning signs after a month. No wages, no work permit, just bullshit. Walk away.

To pursue this further will cost you time, money and energy to recover a maximum of say 250,000 Baht, which is quite possibly not there anyway. Spend all that time, money and energy on finding a job with a future and you will be far better off.

[PCA]

There are so many people who have been ripped off. I would guess that at some time, we have all been ripped off.

In this case my advice would be to forget it, put it behind you and find a new life.

And next time around recognise the warning signs after a month. No wages, no work permit, just bullshit. Walk away.

To pursue this further will cost you time, money and energy to recover a maximum of say 250,000 Baht, which is quite possibly not there anyway. Spend all that time, money and energy on finding a job with a future and you will be far better off.

you can't be serious with that advise. Why let a proven asshol_e walk away for robbing the guy 6 months of his time unpaid and eventually even in financial trouble to maintain his own family life. Not to mention the sneaky attitude of pretended friendship.

If the guy is still around doing business I would go after him even for 100 baht.

[TimTang]

you can't be serious with that advise. Why let a proven asshol_e walk away for robbing the guy 6 months of his time unpaid and eventually even in financial trouble to maintain his own family life. Not to mention the sneaky attitude of pretended friendship.

If the guy is still around doing business I would go after him even for 100 baht.

Exactly! It's not like it's a small chunk of change, plus that's almost a half a year of hard work with no reciprocation. I would have made more as a motorcycle taxi driver. I also borrowed money during that time, stupidly convinced of his sincerity that I should not worry everything will be sorted. Doing nothing would only reward him for his behavior and leave him with the impression that he could repeat it with total impunity. I'm not sure if that's the right way to leave matters.

As opalhort said in an earlier post the Labor Court is there for this exact reason. You can present your case for free without the need for expensive lawyers. Even if I were to lose the dispute it wouldn't cost anything and most foreign companies would prefer not to have their business subjected to government scrutiny or have red flags associated with their company name.

[backsoon]

OP. No offence ment, but the original story makes me wonder. Are you naive, or stupid?

Working 5.5 months, not seeing any money, while you are not so rich yourself (borrowed twice 40,000Bt from a friend). Nothing in writing! Working without a permit! You put both feet forward, and both are wrong. How and to whom are you going to complain? I feel sorry for you...

You should revise your definition of friendship, in good time...

[antony77]

OP. No offence ment, but the original story makes me wonder. Are you naive, or stupid?

Working 5.5 months, not seeing any money, while you are not so rich yourself (borrowed twice 40,000Bt from a friend). Nothing in writing! Working without a permit! You put both feet forward, and both are wrong. How and to whom are you going to complain? I feel sorry for you...

You should revise your definition of friendship, in good time...

I agree. I have been ripped off to the tune of several million by a close Thai friend. My lawyer refused to take my case against him because he was a "puyai" (Big shot) In another case a lawyer also ripped me off by giving our title deeds away to the buyer without him paying us.. We took the lawyer to the "lawyers"court and lost because all the other lawyers supported him even though he was completely dishonest. I spent 2 million baht in all trying to get paid for the property using 4 other lawyers. Who did nothing except to ask for more money. In the end I gave up and have never had any business dealings with Thais except my Thai wife of 35 years.

The good intentions of posters to suggest that he should go to the labour department may backfire. He was after all working here without a work permit. He has no contract. I have lived here for 45 years and my advice would be to forget it, hard as it may be. If someone had given me this same advice I wold be a lot richer than I am now!

[antony77]

There are so many people who have been ripped off. I would guess that at some time, we have all been ripped off.

In this case my advice would be to forget it, put it behind you and find a new life.

And next time around recognise the warning signs after a month. No wages, no work permit, just bullshit. Walk away.

To pursue this further will cost you time, money and energy to recover a maximum of say 250,000 Baht, which is quite possibly not there anyway. Spend all that time, money and energy on finding a job with a future and you will be far better off.

I agree. I have been ripped off to the tune of several million by a close Thai friend. My lawyer refused to take my case against him because he was a "puyai" (Big shot) In another case a lawyer also ripped me off by giving our title deeds away to the buyer without him paying us.. We took the lawyer to the "lawyers"court and lost because all the other lawyers supported him even though he was completely dishonest. I spent 2 million baht in all trying to get paid for the property using 4 other lawyers. Who did nothing except to ask for more money. In the end I gave up and have never had any business dealings with Thais except my Thai wife of 35 years.

The good intentions of posters to suggest that he should go to the labour department may backfire. He was after all working here without a work permit. He has no contract. I have lived here for 45 years and my advice would be to forget it, hard as it may be. If someone had given me this same advice I wold be a lot richer than I am now!

[opalhort]

There are no repercussions by going to the labour court.

Even an illegal Burmese worker can go there for consultation and advice without fear of him being reported to the authorities.

This is why I mentioned that the OP should NOT report to police because they may be obligated to report the OP's no WP status.

The first step is to take any evidence incl. copies of some of the work done and witnesses if available and go to the court for consultation. The consultant will then give advice about how to proceed; file a claim, forget it or any other options that may be available. If go for a claim they will also help with the paperwork needed. And they do this all for free!

Note: everything I've posted here is based on personal experience (I was very surprised how helpful and pro-employee everybody was at the court - much better than I would have expected from a German court), but it was over 20 years ago. Laws and regulations have changed since then but they certainly changed for the better regarding employees.

To the OP: Just go there and ask for advice and take it from there.

opalhort

[jbaldwin]

I have no legal knowledge but if you were working without a work permit would this make your back salary the proceeds of a crime?

If so money laundering law would make it legal to be involved in handling or transmitting that money.

[taffylee]

How do you propose to take legal action as an Illegal alien worker?

Do you understand the consequences of admitting you were working without a work permit?

Best name and shame him, I think.

[TimTang]

I have no legal knowledge but if you were working without a work permit would this make your back salary the proceeds of a crime?

Yes it is a crime to work without a work permit, but I was hired by the company and it's their responsibility to provide one. I can't get a work permit on my own accord because the company has to provide the pertinent information and must prove they are in fact qualified to even apply for one. If I'm told that I will be receiving a work permit I can only assume that they are processing the necessary documents. If they don't, then it is them committing the crime not me. That's why it is in their best interest to just pay me; the wages they owe me will be the least of their worries when the Dept. of Labor gets involved. The penalties can be quite severe. I remember a case where President Park (the construction department) got raided and they had to pay over 1 million per employee caught without a permit. The employees caught in the raid spent about 2 hours in a single cell, then were released.

If so money laundering law would make it legal to be involved in handling or transmitting that money.

Here again, the company is responsible for registering you as an employee with the Taxation Dept. and even though you do not yet have a Work Permit they are required to deduct at least 3% withholding tax while it's being processed. This is the company's responsibility, not mine. This is also illegal and can result in a hefty fine.

Transmitting money has nothing to do with it. If you've ever tried to send even a modest amount of money out of the country you'd realize how much red tape is required. Try to carry a brief case full of 100 dollar bills through the airport, after signing a document claiming you have no more than 10,000 on your person. I guarantee you'd be in for a very sad flight, if you even make it to the plane. That's why most international companies maintain off-shore accounts and only bring in as little as absolutely necessary to run their business.

Thanks for your response! You presented an interesting angle of looking at things.

[aussiebebe]

My deepest sympathies to the OP who seems have managed to get through a bad situation sucessfully. I'd also voice concerns about chasing the matter, as other posters have noted, the lost remuneration probably isn't there to be had anyway. Very sad.

Although I strongly disagree with the OP's remark that sending money out of Thailand involves much red-tape (I frequently authorize SWIFT transfers - they're painless, straight-forward and uncomplicated) I do agree that the OP handled the situation with dignity and restraint. I think in retrospect they will see that essentially doing nothing but walking away was a big reason they can continue to prosper in Thailand.

I'm more interested in how the OP worked 6 months with no salary! I don't think I could do that. Best look at this as a learning curve.

[TimTang]

How do you propose to take legal action as an Illegal alien worker?

First of all, reporting to the Labor Court doesn't require any legal assistance. You just present your case then they determine the appropriate action to take. If they determine that this is a simple case of not getting paid then no legal action will be required on my part.

Secondly, I wasn't an "Illegal alien worker". I had a non-immigrant visa and I was hired with the understanding that I would be getting a work permit. And as I said in my previous post, that's the company's responsibility, not mine.

Do you understand the consequences of admitting you were working without a work permit?

I believe with some of the good advise I've received here and on the Teak Door site, I've got a pretty good grip on the situation. Not having a work permit was out of my control as that's the company's responsibility.

Best name and shame him, I think.

I'm not out for vengeance. I would just like to be paid and move on. Anyone that would do this is incapable of shame.

[TimTang]

My deepest sympathies...

I'm more interested in how the OP worked 6 months with no salary! I don't think I could do that. Best look at this as a learning curve.

Thanks for your sympathies; I suppose a HUG would be out of the question.

I was surviving on a meager pension fund, which I'd rather let grow than draw from. But I had to resort to it during this period. I had a good friend that lent me money for a couple of emergencies that came up. I still owe him; that's why I'd like to get paid.

[TimTang]

No offence ment, but the original story makes me wonder. Are you naive, or stupid?

A little bit of both I suppose.

If you've lived in Thailand for any length of time you'd know that a good job and the guarantee of a work permit is well worth pursuing, if you want to remain here for any length of time. In this case I was presented with an opportunity to do something completely new and I got really excited about it. I actually worked and studied at home in the evenings and on weekends. I became obsessed with trying to get at good as I possibly could and was determined to become a valuable asset with a period of 1 year. I worked harder than I ever did in university. I suppose with my mind preoccupied, the frivolous little things like "being paid" became less of a priority. So to answer your question; yes I was naive and stupid.

You should revise your definition of friendship, in good time...

I will definitely take you advise in the future. Edited December 18, 2009 by TimTang

[mrtoad]

Unfortunately there are a number of these charlatans around, who seem to be happy to employ people to undertake work, but are generally reluctant to pay for the work. I have had a similar problem with a Singaporean scam merchant who I have undertaken work for, but has still not paid me for it. I am in the process of chasing this person for the outstanding monies, although he is what one might call rather evasive in actually fronting up and settling his debt - even going as low as getting his ho in tow to try and stir up shit by phoning my GF and spreading malicious untruths. People who employ staff should understand that they have a responsibility to pay people on time -sadly a number of foreigners in this country seem to think they can so what they wish. I hope you manage to get it sorted, just make sure you take the step to protect yourself and hopefully this guy will get his come up-pence.

[thaibkk]

i smell TROLL

one month, no salary, anybody with halve a brain would walk away

but, still work for him, 1 day, go get your IT infrastructure or programming or whatever and go format all drives (make first a backup for yourself)

would be a fare trade, don't you think

but i smell TROLL anyway...

ur here on a non-o = you cannot work... so why blabla about lending money to support your family ?

[thenptgroup]

Some people are so despareate to work in Thailand, for whaever reason there may be hiding in their ego and pants that they give in to any and everything..

First rule is: No work permeit, no work, sounds fair. Take a step bak and learn from your mistake.

As a major employer, bristish citizen, I make sure everything is 100%...so should you as a forieng person.....second rule: Dont trust a foriegner if his lips are moving and his pen is not......

Thanks for listening...

[ColinChapman]

I know it sounds ridiculous, but walking away is probably best!

In 15 years I have had three friends go to the labour court and all three of them won. However, only one of them ever got the money paid to them, and it took more than five years from first filing his case. The labour court makes a judgement (generally after at least three or four hearings) and awards you money, but there appears to be no way of actually getting the money if the defendant simply refuses to pay. One friend went through an extremely time consuming process involving some sort of court appointed bailiffs who actually visited his former employer's company with him, but again couldn't actually get any money, although they were very optimistic and told him how they could seize assets from the company and do all sorts of things, nothing ever happened.

Just for clarity - all three companies are still in business, they haven't closed down and disappeared or anything, one is a local subsidiary of a multinational construction company (this is the one that eventually paid), one is a school and one is a catering business.

[caf]

You've had some good advice. Take the labour department route. You may or may not get paid ultimately but if you do nothing you will get nothing anyway. Nothing to lose.

[Abrak]

Yes it is a crime to work without a work permit, but I was hired by the company and it's their responsibility to provide one. I can't get a work permit on my own accord because the company has to provide the pertinent information and must prove they are in fact qualified to even apply for one. If I'm told that I will be receiving a work permit I can only assume that they are processing the necessary documents. If they don't, then it is them committing the crime not me.

This is not my understanding of how the Labor law works. It is the individual that is prosecuted by the Law for not having a work permit rather than the employer.

(There is some reasoning behind this. If you were employed by a company that was not registered in Thailand then the Law would be unable to prosecute the company. Therefore it is illegal for an 'individual' to work here without a work permit.)

As is commonly discussed in social circles, many people have worked illegally in Thailand for trusted employers, usually for a short time, and have no complaints. On the other hand, there are countless reports by people who come here and do work for people they don't know, who in turn refuse to pay them in full or part. Without a work permit or a company (plus written communications or witnesses or other proof of the work), these people have no legal leg to stand on, and in fact can get into some trouble by telling the authorities that they worked illegally (it depends on the situation and the particular authorities). This is not uncommon.

The usual penalty for working in Thailand in a blatantly illegal way is summary deportation. Immigration officials may bring you to your hotel or apartment to collect whatever things you wish to bring with you, and then bring you to the airport. You can also be detained by immigration until you make some of your own arrangements. All of this depends on the overall situation.

http://www.thailandguru.com/work-permit-thailand.html

Please not the fact that you have received no remuneration for the 'work' you have done in Thailand in no way exonerates from the fact that you have worked without a work permit.