Sin Som Ros

[ZeroNull]

Hello all,

Some time ago my wife (she is thai) finished buying land in Saraburi.

Now the Amphoe there wants me, personally, to sign a document titeled

"Letter of confirmation" and "Principle for Acquisition of Land by a Thai Wife who has Alian Spose"

It deals about that the money "is not Sin Som Ros or the matrimonial property between husband and wife".

I have never given my wife explicit money for this to buy.

So should i sign it ?

Cant i expect they give me a document i can fully understand ? (Maybe in my language)

What the devil is "Sin Som Ros" and "matrimonial property" ?

What rights i give up with this for the future (even if i dont expect to have real rights here

should i consult a lawer first ?

Or is this easy ?

ZeroNull

[InterestedObserver]

Sign the document, that's the law. The document declares that the money used to purchase land is 100% your wife's, the land is not marital property, therefore you forfeit any claim to said land in the future during divorce proceedings. The document is required to be signed to prevent nominee issues arising from the transaction. Matrimonial property is anything acquired during marriage, thus jointly owned, and subject to division upon divorce. The Land Code in Thailand does recognize common law arrangements for the purposes of this document.

Edited December 19, 2009 by InterestedObserver

[oracle]

Sign the document, that's the law. The document declares that the money used to purchase land is 100% your wife's, the land is not marital property, therefore you forfeit any claim to said land in the future during divorce proceedings. The document is required to be signed to prevent nominee issues arising from the transaction. Matrimonial property is anything acquired during marriage, thus jointly owned, and subject to division upon divorce. The Land Department does recognize common law arrangements for the purposes of this document.

The letter of confirmation is part of the regulation that she owns it and it's not common property. For the land office she will own and manage the land with no foreign claim. She can sell it on her own. I a divorce you can trash the letter of confirmation as a court will apply the system of property between husband and wife civil and commercial code. It will be divided as part of marital property despite the letter of confirmation. In a divorce the land can be allocated to the foreigner with the obligation to sell within a year! You don't forfeit your claim in a divorce with this letter.

[InterestedObserver]

The letter of confirmation is part of the regulation that she owns it and it's not common property. For the land office she will own and manage the land with no foreign claim. She can sell it on her own. I a divorce you can trash the letter of confirmation as a court will apply the system of property between husband and wife civil and commercial code. It will be divided as part of marital property despite the letter of confirmation. In a divorce the land can be allocated to the foreigner with the obligation to sell within a year! You don't forfeit your claim in a divorce with this letter.

The document in question says what it says, that the land is not marital property. The OP is required to sign this legal document by the Land Office. If the OP is basing his future financial planning on a Thai divorce judge overruling the Land Office document and awarding him a 50/50 split ---- well then good luck to him. If the OP wishes to repudiate the document in the future and claim that he in fact paid for the land and is therefore the rightful owner, then he has an entirely new set of problems.

[gregb]

Basically, you have to sign this document. This is for the land office's benefit, not yours. If you do not sign this, then they can not comply with the requirement for them to verify the funds used to purchase the land were not joint property. Land can not be transferred legally when the funds for purchase are your property or joint marital assets. They have to come from the wife's personal assets.

In a divorce, Oracle is correct. This form has little standing in a divorce action. If you can show a money trail that demonstrates it was your money used to purchase the house, you still stand a good chance of claiming ownership to it. Again, the form is required so the land office can meet their legal requirements to verify the source of the funds. This is about them being absolved of responsibility, it doesn't really say anything about you.

BTW, your confusion about this form is exactly the same confusion expressed by government officials for the last decade. It is the basis for the claim of spouses being used as nominees to buy land for foreigners. Because if a foreigner lies on this form, then in the case of a divorce he still may have a claim on the land. If he had a claim on the land during the marriage, that means the spouse was acting as a nominee for his interest. Much more important people than you or me have wildly different interpretations of what this form actually means and its consequences. Some TV members seem to get violently upset by even mentioning that this form might not provide complete immunity for them, but the hard truth is there do seem to be foreigners who intentionally abuse the rules this way.

If you are seriously concerned about this, divorce your wife at the ampur. Give her the funds in the divorce settlement. Let her purchase and register the property, and then remarry. That removes your interest completely and establishes a concrete paper trail.

Otherwise, if you don't really care, then just go ahead and sign and be done with it. If you are sure you are telling the truth about the source of the funds, you have nothing to worry about. If you are consciously misrepresenting the truth on the form however, just be aware that Thai governments have a history of suddenly turning on people and enforcing laws that have been unenforced for decades. Nobody knows what a future malicious official may decide to do. All it takes is one of them drunk with power to decide to interpret the rules his way rather than yours, and make you a scapegoat for something completely outside of your intent.

I will say that right now there is no reason to be worried about this even if you paid 100% for the land. Aside from a couple of wild statements by some officials in Phuket nobody has shown the slightest interest in this. But nobody can guarantee it will always be that way.

Edited December 19, 2009 by gregb

[donx]

ZeroNull,

I have a few questions for you if you don't mind me asking. Did your wife buy this land before or after you were married? If after you were married, did your wife retain her maiden last name when she purchased the land? Why are you being asked to sign this document now? Do you currently live in Thailand?

The reason I ask is because a few years ago when my wife bought some land, I expected to sign this document you are being asked to sign. I was told that since my wife retained her maiden name and that her Thai ID indicated that she was still single, there was no need for me to sign. Now I am wondering if I too will be asked to sign this document in the near future (which will be fine by me). We don't live in Thailand, so perhaps this won't come up any time soon for me.

[stgrhe]

This is what the law says regarding property of husband and wife.

THE CIVIL AND COMMERCIAL CODE – CHAPTER IV

PROPERTY OF HUSBAND AND WIFE

Section 1465 – Where the husband and wife have not, previous to their marriage, concluded a special agreement concerning their properties, the relations between them as regards to their properties shall be governed by the provisions of this Chapter.

Any clause in the ante-nuptial agreement (example) contrary to public order or goods morals, or provided that the relations between them as regards such properties are to be governed by foreign law, shall be void.

Section 1466 – The ante-nuptial agreement is void if not entered in the Marriage Register at the time of marriage registration terms of the ante-nuptial; or if not made in writing and signed by both spouses and by at least two witnesses and entered in the Marriage Register at the time of marriage registration stating that the ante-nuptial is thereto annexed.

Section 1467 – After marriage the ante-nuptial agreement cannot be altered except by authorisation of the Court.

Section 1468 – Clauses in the ante-nuptial agreement shall have no effect as regards to the rights of third persons acting in good faith irrespectively of whether they be altered or cancelled by the order of the Court.

Section 1469 – Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be avoided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage; provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby.

Section 1470 – Properties of husband and wife except in so far as they are set aside as Sin Suan Tua, are Sin Somros.

Section 1471 – Sin Suan Tua consists of:

(1) property belonging to either spouse before marriage;

(2) property for personal use, dress or ornament suitable for situation in life, or tools necessary for carrying on the profession of either spouse;

(3) property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will or gift; and

(4) Khongman.

Section 1472 – As regards to Sin Suan Tua, if it has been exchanged to other property, other property has been bought or money has been acquired from selling it, such other property or money acquired shall be Sin Suan Tua.

Section 1473 – Each spouse is manager of his or her Sin Suan Tua.

Section 1474 – Sin Somros consists of:

(1) property acquired during marriage;

(2) property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will or gift made in writing if it is declared by such will or document of gift to be Sin Somros; and

(3) fruits of Sin Suan Tua.

In case of doubt as to whether a property is Sin Somros or not it shall be presumed to be Sin Somros.

Section 1475 – Where any Sin Somros is property of the kind mentioned in Section 456*) of this Code or has documentary title, either husband or wife may apply for having his or her name entered in the documents as co-owners.

*) Section 456 – A sale of immovable property is void unless it is made in writing and registered by the competent official. The same rule applies to ships and vessels of six tonnes and over, to steam launches or motor boats of five tonnes and over, to floating houses and beasts of burden.

An agreement to sell or to buy any of the aforesaid property, or a promise of sale of such property is not enforceable by action unless there is some written evidence signed by the party liable or unless unrest is given, or there is part performance.

The provisions of the foregoing paragraph shall apply to a contract of sale of movable property where the agreed price is five hundred baht or upwards.

Section 1476 – In managing the Sin Somros in the following cases, the husband and wife have to be joint manager, or one spouse has to obtain consent from the other:

(1) selling, exchanging, sale of the right of redemption, letting out property on hire-purchase, mortgaging, releasing mortgage to mortgagor or transferring the right of mortgage on immovable property or on mortgageable movable property;

(2) creating or distinguishing the whole or part of the servitude, right of inhabitation, right of superficies, usufruct or change on immovable property;

(3) letting immovable property for more than three years;

(4) lending money;

(5) making a gift unless it is a gift for charitable, social or moral purposes and is auditable to the family condition;

(6) making a compromise;

(7) submitting a dispute to arbitration; and

(8) putting up the property as guarantee or security with a competent official or Court.

The management of the Sin Somros in any case other than those provided in paragraph one can be made only by one spouse without having to obtain consent from the other.

Section 1476/1 – The husband and wife can manage the Sin Somros differently, in whole or in part, from provisions of Section 1476, provided that the ante-nuptial agreement under Section 1465 and Section 1466 has been made. In such case, the management of the Sin Somros shall be made in accordance with the ante-nuptial agreement.

In case the specifications of the management of the Sin Somros in the ante-nuptial agreement are only part in difference to the provisions of Section 1476, the management of the Sin Somros other than those specified in the ante-nuptial contract shall be made in accordance with Section 1476.

Section 1477 – Either spouse is entitled to litigate, defend, and take legal proceedings concerning maintenance of the Sin Somros for the benefit of the Sin Somros. Debts incurred by the said litigation, defence and legal proceedings shall be regarded as the obligation to be performed jointly by the spouses.

Section 1478 – Where one spouse has to give consent or to affix a signature together with the other in the management of the property, but unreasonable refuses to give such consent or to affix such signature, or is not in a position to give such consent, the latter may apply to the Court for an order granting the necessary permission.

Section 1479 – Where the act by either spouse requires the consent of the other spouse, and if such act is required by law to be made in writing or registered by the competent official, such consent must be written in writing.

Section 1480 – In the management of the Sin Somros, which has to be made jointly or has to obtain the consent from the other spouse under Section 1476, if either spouse has entered into any juristic act alone or without consent of the other, the latter may apply to the Court for revoking such juristic act, unless it has been ratified by the other spouse, or a third person was, at the time of entering into such juristic act, acting in good faith and made the counter-payment.

The litigation for revoking of the juristic act by the Court under paragraph one cannot be made later than one year from the day when such cause as being ground for the revocation is known or later than ten years since the juristic act was done.

Section 1481 – Neither spouse is entitled to dispose of the Sin Somros by will in favour of the other persons to an extent exceeding his or her own portion thereof.

Section 1482 – In case either spouse is the sole manager of the Sin Somros, the other spouse is nevertheless entitled to manage household affairs or provide for the necessaries of the family. And the expenses therefore would bind the Sin Somros and Sin Suan Tua of both parties.

If such management of household affairs or provision for the necessaries of the family by the husband or wife results in the undue loss, the other spouse may apply to the Court to forbid or limit his or her power.

Section 1483 – In case either spouse is the sole manager of the Sin Somros, if the manager is going to commit or is committing any act in the management of the Sin Somros, which would appear to result in undue loss, the other spouse may apply to the Court for an order forbidding commission of such act.

Section 1484 – If either spouse, who is the manager of the Sin Somros,:

(1) causes undue loss to it;

(2) fails to support the other spouse;

(3) becomes insolvent or incurs debts to an amount exceeding one half of the Sin Somros;

(4) hinders the management of Sin Somros by the other spouse without reasonable ground; or

(5) is found to have circumstances that will ruin the Sin Somros

the other spouse may apply to the Court for an order authorising him or her to be the sole manager or dividing the Sin Somros.

In case there is an application made under paragraph one, the Court may determine temporary protective measures in the management of the Sin Somros. If that is the case of emergency, the provisions of the request in case of emergency under the Civil Procedure Code shall apply.

Section 1484/1 – In case where it has been an order of the Court forbidding or limiting the power of either spouse to manage the Sin Somros, if the cause which was the ground for the Court order or the circumstances have later changed, either spouse may apply to the Court for revocation or change of the order forbidding or limiting the power to manage the Sin Somros. The Court is this effect may give any order which is deemed suitable.

Section 1485 – The husband and wife may apply to the Court for authorising him or her to be the manager of any particular Sin Somros, or participate in the management, if such management or participation will bring about more benefit.

Section 1486 – When the Court has pronounced a final judgement, or given an order under Section 1482 paragraph two, Section 1483, Section 1484, Section 1484/1 or Section 1485 in favour of the applicant, or Section 1491, Section 1492/2 or Section 1598/17, or the husband and wife has been relieved of becoming bankrupt, the Court shall notify the Marriage Registrar of the matter in order to have it entered into the Marriage Registrar.

Section 1487 – No spouse can seize attach any property of the other during marriage, except the seizure of attachment made in the case which has entered for the purpose of exercising his or her duty or for maintaining rights between husband and wife specially provided in this Code or as specially provided by this Code allowing one spouse to sue the other, or for allowance due for maintenance and cost under the judgment of the Court.

Section 1488 – Where either spouse is personally liable to perform an obligation incurred before or during marriage, such performance shall be first made out of his or her Sin Suan Tua; if the obligation is not performed in full, it shall be satisfied out of his or her portion of the Sin Somros.

Section 1489 – Where both spouses are common debtors, the performance shall be made out of the Sin Somros and the Sin Suan Tua of both spouses.

Section 1490 – Debts that both spouses are jointly liable to perform, shall include the following debts incurred by either spouse during marriage:

(1) debts incurred in connection with management of household affairs and providing for the necessaries of the family, or maintenance, medical expenses of the household and for proper education of the children;

(2) debts incurred in connection with the Sin Somros;

(3) debts incurred in connection with a business carried on by the spouses in common; and

(4) debts incurred by either spouse only for his or her own benefit but ratified by the other.

Section 1491 – If either spouse is adjudged bankrupt, the Sin Somros is divided by operation of law as from the date of adjudication.

Section 1492 – After the Sin Somros has been divided under Section 1484 paragraph two, Section 1491, or Section 1598/17 paragraph two, the portion so divided becomes Sin Suan Tua of each spouse. Any property obtained after the division by either spouse shall be Sin Sua Tua of that spouse and not be regarded as Sin Somros. And the property acquired thereafter by the spouse through a will, or gift made in writing under Section 1474 (2), shall become Sin Sua Tua of the husband and wife equally.

Fruits of the Sin Suan Tua accrued after the division of the Sin Somros shall be Sin Sua Tua.

Section 1492/1 – In case the division of the Sin Somros is made by the order of the Court, the revocation of the division shall be made upon the request of either spouse and the Court has given the order to that affect. If either spouse raises an objection to such request, the Court cannot give an order for the revocation of the division of the Sin Somros unless the cause for the division of the Sin Somros has ceased to exist.

After the division of the Sin Somros under paragraph one having been revoked, or suspended due to the husband or wife having been relieved from being bankrupt, the property which is Sin San Tua on the date of the order of the Court, or on the date of his or her relieving from being bankrupt, shall remain the same as Sin Suan Tua.

Section 1493 – In case where the Sin Somros has been disposed of, both spouses are liable to pay for the household expenses in proportion to the amount of their respective Sin Sua Tua.

[InterestedObserver]

And this is what the Land Code / Ministry of Interior says regarding land acquisition by a Thai spouse. Courtesy of SAMUIFORSALE.

Regulation: The procedure for the acquisition of land by Thais having spouses being aliens, either by lawful marriage (with proper registration of marriage) or unlawful marriage (without proper registration of marriage) and children of aliens have been changed to be as follows: Any Thai having an alien spouse may purchase or accept land as a gift with no consideration and register the ownership of such land during marriage under the condition that the spouse must jointly provide a written legal confirmation stating that the entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai. Without written confirmation from an alien spouse, the request for such registration must be referred to the Land Department in order to obtain an approval from the Minister. Any alien's minor having Thai nationality may purchase or accept land as a gift with no consideration and register the ownership of such land if it does not appear after investigation that he/she has done so to avoid the law.

So clearly the Land Code requires that land acquired during marriage be from the personal property (Sin Suan Tua) of the Thai spouse and therefore cannot be marital property.

[Burgernev]

So clearly the Land Code requires that land acquired during marriage be from the personal property (Sin Suan Tua) of the Thai spouse and therefore cannot be marital property.

Agree that's the case as it's written, but there has been cases where the judge has not taken into account the land office 'declaration' and awarded a 50/50 split on the land and house, but ofcourse you can't rely on that at all. And a 50/50 split can also work against a farang if he has registered the building (house) in his own personal name seperate from the land (as you would be wise to do) paid for out of his own personal funds that are not part of the marital assets. Then a 50/50 split of her 1M Baht land and your 5M Baht house doesn't look quite such a good deal !!!

You should see a lawyer and have rights registered on the land title that will not be voided in event of divorce, this can be registered on the land title at the same time your Thai spouse registers this new land in her name. It can be done as one process by the land office officials before the land title is passed back across the counter into your spouses hands, preventing her from reneaging on registering you any rights.

IF YOU DON'T register any rights on the land title, then I'm not sure how long it takes to get before a divorce judge, or put a freeze on the assets (if that's actually possible to do on her land), but I do know she can sell the land to her mother in 45 minutes flat for well under the going rate at the land office, that includes well under the land offices' usual appraisal rates if you come to an 'arrangement' with the official. Seen that done first hand.

Then all you would have to do is chase her round the country, get her into court and get awarded 50% of this undervalued amount she sold it for, which unfortunately she has now lost at cards, so the court will order her to pay you 500 Baht a month for the next 150 years

Best to see a lawyer and get some rights registered on her land title, unless ofcourse she is actually using her own money to buy the land.

Burgernev

Edited December 21, 2009 by Burgernev

[Burgernev]

If after you were married, did your wife retain her maiden last name when she purchased the land?

The reason I ask is because a few years ago when my wife bought some land, I expected to sign this document you are being asked to sign. I was told that since my wife retained her maiden name and that her Thai ID indicated that she was still single, there was no need for me to sign. Now I am wondering if I too will be asked to sign this document in the near future (which will be fine by me). We don't live in Thailand, so perhaps this won't come up any time soon for me.

Hi donx, have highlighted a couple of parts of your post on a subject that has had a fair bit of debate where I live, hope you don't mind. The officials at our local land office do the same thing, ie: not requesting foreign spouse to sign the declaration if Thai wife has an ID card with her maiden name on it. But we've been advised by lawyers that this is the wrong practice by the officials and that surnames are irrelevant, because if you're married, you're married so to speak. The following extracts while not specifically addressing surnames, do seem to be a bit of a 'catch-all' ....

Extract From Land Code:

"An alien whose spouse is a Thai national either legitimate or illegitimate, that Thai national can purchase land but the alien spouse of that Thai national must give a joint written confirmation that the money which that Thai national will expend on purchasing the land is wholly the separate property or personal effects of that Thai national and not the Sin Somros or jointly acquired property."

Extract From Ministry of Interior:

The procedure for the acquisition of land by Thais having spouses being aliens, either by lawful marriage (with proper registration of marriage) or unlawful marriage (without proper registration of marriage)

We've been advised, but have never had it confirmed (so please take with a pinch of salt) that the Thai spouse has to indicate on one of the numerous forms when registering land whether or not she is married to a foreigner, this may well be part of the documents that the land office official fills out for you before they call you over to sign the bottom of each page. No doubt they indicate 'not married', if this is the case the Thai spouse has (unwittingly) made a false declaration. It covers the land offices' backside and we'll be left holding the baby.

Lawyers say you can go back retrospectively and make the declaration but then run the risk of drawing attention to it. If someone did want to retrospectiely sign it, just get a lawyer to have a chat with their pet official 'off the record' and see if it can be signed without any fuss for a few shillings

Burgernev

Edited December 21, 2009 by Burgernev

[stgrhe]

And a 50/50 split can also work against a farang if he has registered the building (house) in his own personal name seperate from the land (as you would be wise to do) paid for out of his own personal funds that are not part of the marital assets. Then a 50/50 split of her 1M Baht land and your 5M Baht house doesn't look quite such a good deal !!!

This does only apply if the house was registered (actually the construction contract and building permit) done before marriage or else the house would be regarded as Sin Somros.

[ZeroNull]

Thank you for all the help !

After reading the replies i think its (aside of all complexity) easy.

I have to and i will sign the document.

What i learned is that i may have to register rights

on the land. (Like the right to live on it, to use it)

But this i will only do if i really plan to use it because

these rights may prevent a future sale.

Further that a building on the land can (and should) belong

to me.

Have a Merry Christmas

ZeroNull

Edited December 22, 2009 by ZeroNull

[ZeroNull]

@donx:

>I have a few questions for you if you don't mind me asking.

>Did your wife buy this land before or after you were married?

after marriage

>If after you were married, did your wife retain her maiden last name when she purchased the land?

i think not, will have a look on this during signing at the ampoe

>Why are you being asked to sign this document now?

she has finished buying it so it will get into her official ownership now.

>Do you currently live in Thailand?

no. i am not retired and have to work in europe

ZeroNull

[Burgernev]

And a 50/50 split can also work against a farang if he has registered the building (house) in his own personal name seperate from the land (as you would be wise to do) paid for out of his own personal funds that are not part of the marital assets. Then a 50/50 split of her 1M Baht land and your 5M Baht house doesn't look quite such a good deal !!!

This does only apply if the house was registered (actually the construction contract and building permit) done before marriage or else the house would be regarded as Sin Somros.

I don't believe this to be the case stgrhe. It can be purchased with your own personal funds that were acquired prior to marriage or even personal funds acquired after marriage, see the following section of the CCC:

Section1471 - Sin Suan Tua consists of:

(1) property belonging to either spouse before marriage;

(2) property for personal use, dress or ornament suitable for situation in life, or tools necessary for carrying on the profession of either spouse;

(3) property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will or gift

Take item (3) for instance property (money) you may inherit say 50 years after being married, you then buy a house with it and it's considered as 'Sin Suan Tua ', at least that's how I interpret this code!?!? Also I understand though that any gain in the house value over and above original purchase price (from your 'personal property') becomes 'marital property', and that gain is then subject to a 50/50 split.

Someone please correct me if this is wrong as I've given this advice (informally) to numerous people.

Cheers,

Burgernev

Edited December 22, 2009 by Burgernev

[stgrhe]

You may be right Burgerne, but I suppose the will must state that the money is an inheritance for personal use only (in Sweden it is quite common on wills) or I doubt a court here in Thailand would consider the money to be 'private' in case of a divorce case. Nevertheless, the onus to prove 'private ownership' of the money most likely rests with the foreigner.