Thailand Local Minimum Wage Raised

[neverdie]

Up here in Central where I live labourers are normally paid around 180 baht a day starting around 8 and finishing around 5.30 to 6 pm with a lunch break.

When I get people in to work for me that is what I pay and I usually give them lunch plus a big cooler with ice and water.

.....meanwhile, you are making a small 'fortune' on the finished product? Just kidding

[ballpoint]

I'm not anti capitalist, and definitely not pro socialist, I've done very well out of the capitalist system thank you. But it does seem as if there's a layer, below which the trickle down effect stops trickling and turns into a dribble.

What percentage of the children of rice farm workers do you reckon have a realistic chance of escaping a life of poverty (other than by the routes of lotter ticket or lottery farang)? We who have done well mostly were born into these opportunities.

So what would you advocate? Communism? Fascism? Feudalism? (Granted, Thailand could almost be called feudal capitalism). Unfortunately, the vast majority of the worlds poor would be poor under any political system, just look at China, Burma, and most of Africa, South / Central America and the rest of Asia. It's in the interests of the rich to keep them that way. What does it really mean when a Western company says a country is losing its competitiveness? It means the manual workers are being paid too much, so we'll move to an even poorer country.

Having said that, however, what percentage of Thailand's growing middle class rose from a background of poverty a generation or two ago? Through living in a typical Buri Ram rice growing village for many years I have seen a good number of people make their way through higher education, by scholarships, hard work and government loans, to a clerical job of some sort. Once they have that foot up, their children, and usually their younger siblings too, get sent to slightly better schools, get slightly better jobs, and so it goes on. My own wife worked her way from a family of rice farmers through University to a job for a Western company in Bangkok. Sure, she then "won the farang lottery" by meeting me, but, if she hadn't have worked her way out of the village, she wouldn't have had a ticket in that lottery. She didn't leave the village with the intention of marrying a farang, she left with the intention of bettering herself in life through catching some of the money that trickled down from a capitalist entrepreneur. I'll bet that even the evil rice barons have enriched some lives. The people polishing, and driving, their Benz's. Their secratarial and clerical staff. The middle management in their mills. It just doesn't reach all the way down the chain to the rice cutters. To paraphrase Winson Churchill, capitalism is a terrible system, but it's better than every other that's been tried. Wait a few years. To Adam Smith's "The wealth of nations". and Karl Marx's "Das Kapital", may be added Ballpoint's "Gross profiteering".

[Canada]

A friend's daughter works at KFC here in Bangkok. She gets 27 baht per hour. An 8 hour shift = 216 baht. She's lucky. Air-con atmosphere, relatively light work.

Meanwhile, up on the farm another friend's daughter is pitching in on the rice fields. Work begins about 6 a.m. and finishes at dark (approx 6 pm). HARD work comparatively, open to the whims of the environment, bent over most of the day. She gets 90 baht per day (and that's regarded as decent).

i know gals who bend over for way more ThaN 90 baht a day. more lIke 4000 baht a day. its all in how one takes advantage of what talents god gives a particular person.

i personally would give the friends daughter 40 baht a day so she can look for better work!

Yeah??? How bout yur daughter??? would you be as generous? sick f*uck

[TAWP]

A revolution would be very inconvenient right now but since these people cannot vote themselves out of this mess, what choices do they have? With a 50 million to 14 million person advantage, certainly they could physically gain back control. Or are they too lazy to mess with it as is counted on by those meeting today in China Town?

So you are proposing a communist uprising to make sure everyone is poor so atleast it is 'fair'?

[way2muchcoffee]

I'm not anti capitalist, and definitely not pro socialist, I've done very well out of the capitalist system thank you. But it does seem as if there's a layer, below which the trickle down effect stops trickling and turns into a dribble.

What percentage of the children of rice farm workers do you reckon have a realistic chance of escaping a life of poverty (other than by the routes of lotter ticket or lottery farang)? We who have done well mostly were born into these opportunities.

Are you suggesting that what I (or others may have) was given to us, OR that by being born in the country we were born in has allowed these opportunities?

I believe that is precisely what he is suggesting. If not the first, then definitely the second. I would think anyone would be hard-pressed to formulate a reasonable argument to contradict this.

Edited December 26, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[caf]

A friend's daughter works at KFC here in Bangkok. She gets 27 baht per hour. An 8 hour shift = 216 baht. She's lucky. Air-con atmosphere, relatively light work.

Meanwhile, up on the farm another friend's daughter is pitching in on the rice fields. Work begins about 6 a.m. and finishes at dark (approx 6 pm). HARD work comparatively, open to the whims of the environment, bent over most of the day. She gets 90 baht per day (and that's regarded as decent).

Meanwhile, a hand-full of filthy-rich well-fed rice baron's meet in a shop in Bkk's chinatown every week (as they've done so for years) and decide rice prices over a nice meal (whilst their drivers polish their mercs out side...)

Wages and standards (along with costs) will have to rise in Thailand and I for one would gratefully pay more (if it went to advance or better the lot of the worker).

The problem is, paying more will not necessarily better the lot of the workers. The workers are paid by the farmers, who are paid by the local rice buyers, who are paid by the mills. A farmer will generally pay what he can afford, which is more than 90 baht a day in our area. A local rice buyer will pay the farmer slightly lower than what he will get from the rice millers. The rice millers pay as low as they feel they can. The rest is their profit. To suggest that a poor farmer, living side by side with the rice cutters, is ripping them off is absurd.

The growing abundance of mechanical harvesters must also be added to the chain. They charge 600 baht a rai here, do the job a lot quicker and more efficiently than manual workers, and also thresh it - which is another cost the farmer has if he uses manual labour. In many areas, the manual workers are used only for small, oddly shaped, or tree grown fields. If they want to work the larger fields they must price themselves to be competitive with the mechanical harversters.

This system (the mechanical harvesters apart) has carried on well before Thaksin, continued through his years in charge - despite all the cries of the good he did for the rural poor, and continues to this day. The current government - despite the cries from the same Thaksin supporters that it does, and has achieved, nothing - offers a guaranteed minimum price per kilo, meaning that those debt affected farmers needing to sell their rice immediately are not ripped off by the chain of buyers (the rich at the top know that every year a large number of farmers have to sell their rice immediately after the harvest, and so the price is lowered to take advantage of them). Maybe it would be better for the government to cut the profits of those at the top and share them with those at the bottom, rather than forking out its own money to slightly better the poor while maintaining the wealth of the rich, but it's a start. Besides which, the current system is capitalism in the best tradition of bailing out the bankers, and we know what happened to another country in the region when it said enough with capitalism.

And it's not only in Thailand. How much do you pay for a pair of Nike shoes? How much do the workers in their factories in the third world get from that? Nike will tell you they make their shoes in locations with cheap labour so they can cut costs, so why do they cost more than anyone elses? Where does the saved money go? Not to the workers, not to the consumers. Some to Tiger Woods and his like, yeah, they really need the money, the rest to the Nike equivalents of the well-fed rice barons. I'm not anti capitalist, and definitely not pro socialist, I've done very well out of the capitalist system thank you. But it does seem as if there's a layer, below which the trickle down effect stops trickling and turns into a dribble.

"The problem is, paying more will not necessarily better the lot of the workers."

What is keeping the rate of 90 baht per day down is the elitist system in Thailand. Nothing to do with Thaksin or the economics of other countries.

A long post. BBB, I suppose.

Edited December 26, 2009 by caf

[ballpoint]

"The problem is, paying more will not necessarily better the lot of the workers."

What is keeping the rate of 90 baht per day down is the elitist system in Thailand. Nothing to do with Thaksin or the economics of other countries.

A long post. BBB, I suppose.

This system (the mechanical harvesters apart) has carried on well before Thaksin, continued through his years in charge - despite all the cries of the good he did for the rural poor, and continues to this day.

Where did I say it had anything to do with Thaksin? Nothing to do with him, and he did nothing to stop it, despite managing to do so much for the poor. Allegedly.

Yeah, sure, the economics of Western countries has no effect on the wages of poorer ones. All those companies set up here because they like the place and the people. Tell them that Vietnam pays its workers less and they'll suddenly like Vietnam and the Vietnamese.

Is this post short enough for you? You don't have to read it all you know, just skim to the part that says "Thaksin" and jump to some conclusion about the rest. Oh, that's what you did do.

[neverdie]

I'm not anti capitalist, and definitely not pro socialist, I've done very well out of the capitalist system thank you. But it does seem as if there's a layer, below which the trickle down effect stops trickling and turns into a dribble.

What percentage of the children of rice farm workers do you reckon have a realistic chance of escaping a life of poverty (other than by the routes of lotter ticket or lottery farang)? We who have done well mostly were born into these opportunities.

Are you suggesting that what I (or others may have) was given to us, OR that by being born in the country we were born in has allowed these opportunities?

I believe that is precisely what he is suggesting. If not the first, then definitely the second. I would think anyone would be hard-pressed to formulate a reasonable argument to contradict this.

Well if its the first part, then I refute it strongly, I was given nothing, left home young and made my own money. Was I fortunate to do it in the country I was in: ABSOLUTELY.

[ballpoint]

Well if its the first part, then I refute it strongly, I was given nothing, left home young and made my own money...

So, we can add counterfeiter to your many crimes eh?

[Rinrada]

Most of those 60 baht wage slaves have a roof over their head. In the US, many minimum wage workers are homeless. Its not the wage so much as the total economic environment.

agree and a lot better than some really poor sods:

More than 660 million people around the world live without sanitation and on less than $2 a day, and more than 385 million on less than $1 a day

385 mill....... thats more than the pop of the USA...just imagine all those cowboys on a Buck a day.......

at least they had their beenz

wots all this about Obamas NHS bill ...good on him... ........wosnt that Mr Ts idea.......

[neverdie]

Well if its the first part, then I refute it strongly, I was given nothing, left home young and made my own money...

So, we can add counterfeiter to your many crimes eh?

Why not, you didnt think I went out and did some hard work to get the money, did you?

[fiercesnake]

A friend's daughter works at KFC here in Bangkok. She gets 27 baht per hour. An 8 hour shift = 216 baht. She's lucky. Air-con atmosphere, relatively light work.

Meanwhile, up on the farm another friend's daughter is pitching in on the rice fields. Work begins about 6 a.m. and finishes at dark (approx 6 pm). HARD work comparatively, open to the whims of the environment, bent over most of the day. She gets 90 baht per day (and that's regarded as decent).

Meanwhile, a hand-full of filthy-rich well-fed rice baron's meet in a shop in Bkk's chinatown every week (as they've done so for years) and decide rice prices over a nice meal (whilst their drivers polish their mercs out side...)

Wages and standards (along with costs) will have to rise in Thailand and I for one would gratefully pay more (if it went to advance or better the lot of the worker).

Gosh so true. WOW 1 Baht extra a day up to 8 Baht extra a day! Whew I bet they are celebrating in the street all to compensate for a 5% increase in the cost of living. As usual their maths is some of the poorest around (when it suits them). 1 to 8 Baht a day is not going to compensate the poor for high living costs and only manages to increase the massive discrepancy in wages between the haves and have-nots here. This is where Thailand truly shows it's NOT a developed country even though they constantly like to announce to the world, "Hi, we've arrived (at developed status)!"

Until the ruling elite here stop considering that everyone else is here to serve them and actively promote REAL education (not just be a good little Thai soldier and think the way we want you to think and do) there will be no improvement . If Thailand wants to be developed it MUST take on true social responsibility which requires a shift in thinking and culture, especially from those in power in both big business and government. However they are so used to exploiting the poor that they can not see that by empowering lower social classes with better education and hence better long term job prospects that the overall nation will move ahead a lot better towards real development and an overall improvement for the living standards for ALL, which actually includes the rich in the long run. But unfortunately until someone gets in power here who has true empathy for ALL Thais not just vested interests and holds the idea of improved education and better employment prospects for all, Thailand will continue to be classed as a developing nation (or NIC as it is now) for a long time yet.

I feel lucky I'm not working in some of these horrendous jobs for the pathetic amounts given and the best I seem to be able to do is sit on a blog site and hope someday someone in real power might actually bother to read some of what is said here and make some real changes for the better to help those with so little.

[caf]

"The problem is, paying more will not necessarily better the lot of the workers."

What is keeping the rate of 90 baht per day down is the elitist system in Thailand. Nothing to do with Thaksin or the economics of other countries.

A long post. BBB, I suppose.

This system (the mechanical harvesters apart) has carried on well before Thaksin, continued through his years in charge - despite all the cries of the good he did for the rural poor, and continues to this day.

Where did I say it had anything to do with Thaksin? Nothing to do with him, and he did nothing to stop it, despite managing to do so much for the poor. Allegedly.

Yeah, sure, the economics of Western countries has no effect on the wages of poorer ones. All those companies set up here because they like the place and the people. Tell them that Vietnam pays its workers less and they'll suddenly like Vietnam and the Vietnamese.

Is this post short enough for you? You don't have to read it all you know, just skim to the part that says "Thaksin" and jump to some conclusion about the rest. Oh, that's what you did do.

Unless you are psychic you don't know how much I read. I actually read it all. What a childish last sentence.

"Where did I say it had anything to do with Thaksin?" in your own post quoted below.

"continued through his years in charge - despite all the cries of the good he did for the rural poor, and continues to this day.

As I said BBB

[caf]

A friend's daughter works at KFC here in Bangkok. She gets 27 baht per hour. An 8 hour shift = 216 baht. She's lucky. Air-con atmosphere, relatively light work.

Meanwhile, up on the farm another friend's daughter is pitching in on the rice fields. Work begins about 6 a.m. and finishes at dark (approx 6 pm). HARD work comparatively, open to the whims of the environment, bent over most of the day. She gets 90 baht per day (and that's regarded as decent).

Meanwhile, a hand-full of filthy-rich well-fed rice baron's meet in a shop in Bkk's chinatown every week (as they've done so for years) and decide rice prices over a nice meal (whilst their drivers polish their mercs out side...)

Wages and standards (along with costs) will have to rise in Thailand and I for one would gratefully pay more (if it went to advance or better the lot of the worker).

Gosh so true. WOW 1 Baht extra a day up to 8 Baht extra a day! Whew I bet they are celebrating in the street all to compensate for a 5% increase in the cost of living. As usual their maths is some of the poorest around (when it suits them). 1 to 8 Baht a day is not going to compensate the poor for high living costs and only manages to increase the massive discrepancy in wages between the haves and have-nots here. This is where Thailand truly shows it's NOT a developed country even though they constantly like to announce to the world, "Hi, we've arrived (at developed status)!"

Until the ruling elite here stop considering that everyone else is here to serve them and actively promote REAL education (not just be a good little Thai soldier and think the way we want you to think and do) there will be no improvement . If Thailand wants to be developed it MUST take on true social responsibility which requires a shift in thinking and culture, especially from those in power in both big business and government. However they are so used to exploiting the poor that they can not see that by empowering lower social classes with better education and hence better long term job prospects that the overall nation will move ahead a lot better towards real development and an overall improvement for the living standards for ALL, which actually includes the rich in the long run. But unfortunately until someone gets in power here who has true empathy for ALL Thais not just vested interests and holds the idea of improved education and better employment prospects for all, Thailand will continue to be classed as a developing nation (or NIC as it is now) for a long time yet.

I feel lucky I'm not working in some of these horrendous jobs for the pathetic amounts given and the best I seem to be able to do is sit on a blog site and hope someday someone in real power might actually bother to read some of what is said here and make some real changes for the better to help those with so little.

A well thought out and factual response. There is little we can do as you say; but our governments could be influential. Why not make military aid conditional on some real change.

[ballpoint]

"The problem is, paying more will not necessarily better the lot of the workers."

What is keeping the rate of 90 baht per day down is the elitist system in Thailand. Nothing to do with Thaksin or the economics of other countries.

A long post. BBB, I suppose.

This system (the mechanical harvesters apart) has carried on well before Thaksin, continued through his years in charge - despite all the cries of the good he did for the rural poor, and continues to this day.

Where did I say it had anything to do with Thaksin? Nothing to do with him, and he did nothing to stop it, despite managing to do so much for the poor. Allegedly.

Yeah, sure, the economics of Western countries has no effect on the wages of poorer ones. All those companies set up here because they like the place and the people. Tell them that Vietnam pays its workers less and they'll suddenly like Vietnam and the Vietnamese.

Is this post short enough for you? You don't have to read it all you know, just skim to the part that says "Thaksin" and jump to some conclusion about the rest. Oh, that's what you did do.

Unless you are psychic you don't know how much I read. I actually read it all. What a childish last sentence.

"Where did I say it had anything to do with Thaksin?" in your own post quoted below.

"continued through his years in charge - despite all the cries of the good he did for the rural poor, and continues to this day.

As I said BBB

The sun has risen and set for 4.6 billion years before I was born, continues to rise and set while I'm alive, despite me wishing it wouldn't some hung over mornings in the past, and will carry on doing so for another 4.5 billion years after I die. Nothing to do with me, but you'd interpret that as saying I am the cause of the cycle?

Interesting that you agree Thaksin did nothing to try and change this situation. Coming from one of his biggest supporters here, that's quite an admission. I guess he wasn't such a friend of the poor after all.

[billd766]

Up here in Central where I live labourers are normally paid around 180 baht a day starting around 8 and finishing around 5.30 to 6 pm with a lunch break.

When I get people in to work for me that is what I pay and I usually give them lunch plus a big cooler with ice and water.

.....meanwhile, you are making a small 'fortune' on the finished product? Just kidding

Actually the only product we have at the moment is about 5 rai of cassava and when we get that out I am thinking of planting bamboo for shoots and poles.

I am 65 and there are things to do around the land that I am simply physically unable to do.

To water the bamboo I need to run a 3 inch water pipe down the side of our land, across my neighbours drive and the front of his land, through a drain under the road and across somebody elses land to the klong. A distance of some 350 metres and it needs a power cable to run the pump as well and the whole thing needs to be buried underground.

That will get water up to my fishpond and storage tanks and then I need to do the same again another 250 metres the other way up to some storage tanks that have not yet been built and from there I can iirigate down hill.

That is when I need some fairly intelligent casual labour as I figure the first part will take about 3 or 4 days and probably 2 men (or women I am not gender specific) and another 2 or 3 days to go uphill on the second part.

[Gonsalviz]

This is really funny for us Farang to be critical of the system, when we are all moving over here because of low cost. And low wages is way the cost for us so low.

My spouse works at a very worldwide known hotel. The charge prices that would rival any hotel in Europe or the USA but she makes $420 a month. Very good pay for Thailand but the rich just keep getting richer on the labor of the poor that just stay poor.

[Bagwan]

I am not at all sure that raising wages significantly (some fat chance ) would improve the lot of the lumpenproletariat, consumerism and face would surely ensure that that was not brought about. That many contend that the Village Fund financed new mobiles or motorbikes would seem to support that view. What may well succeed is comprehensive education, the removal of glass ceilings and the abandonment of nepotism. Opportunities for rising through the ranks in Thailand barely exist as far as I can see. Others have stated in this thread that they succeeded in their lives because they took advantage of opportunities that came their way and I would suggest that this is a practically unknown phenomenon in Thailand to its own detriment. The nearest that many Thais get to self improvement is to start their own business, usually with disastrous results.

Most of the world's big charity organisations no longer hand over money to the the poorer countries - for pretty obvious reasons. Their modus operandi now is not to hand out fish but to give out fishing rods i.e. they help others to help themselves. I only offer assistance to those who are helping themselves. Without self motivation there can be no success. Galvanising the less well off in Thailand to improve themselves may well be a Sisyphean task.

[Thongkorn]

This is really funny for us Farang to be critical of the system, when we are all moving over here because of low cost. And low wages is way the cost for us so low.

My spouse works at a very worldwide known hotel. The charge prices that would rival any hotel in Europe or the USA but she makes $420 a month. Very good pay for Thailand but the rich just keep getting richer on the labor of the poor that just stay poor.

My lady use to work between 65/70 hours a week for 6300baht a month, Which i understand from the Locals is a good wage, The product that she was assembling is being sold for as much as 35000baht , She use to assemble 100s a day, So how does that Equate to The English boss who has made it in life. Is that not called Exploitation, or is that just an opportunity to make Some money.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Thongkorn

[Luxius]

1% of <deleted> all...is <deleted> all.

Percentage pay rises are used for just the opposite.... to keep the raise low and the low paid in that place ("that" is intentional).

Once you know how money is made and who controls it, you dont need to be a Nobel prize winning Economist to work out who is doing the exploiting.

You will though if interested have to investigate the information,.....revelation is the word that comes to mind.

Issan was given a very small taste of political influence under Taksin, I doubt the powers in Bangkok will open that Pandoras box, it'd be better to keep them in there place tied to the rice fields for generation after generation after generation.

60 Baht a day in the year 2009, they ARE Slaves...it makes me sick!

You are absolutely right. I was about to cheer for the little extra the poor are going to have, but little will it help them when the chain of events unfold, in this system you so well put on display. How could I forget? Thank you for making it obvious.

Ballpoint, I like your posts, but I suggest you (and others) take a good look at alternatives to capitalism and democracy (one doesn't make the other necessary, by the way):

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com

http://www.thevenusproject.com

Techno-anarchy is the future.

[peecee]

How do the increases compare to the 5% stated inflation rate?

you're over 4% poorer!

[SpoliaOpima]

I would rather be a rich person in a poor country than a poor person in a frigging bloody rich country, so I reckon this news thread gets my Christmas vote as thread of the day, or more.

Well of course. Did you mean to say you'd rather be a poor person in a poor country than a poor person in a rich country? Not saying I would, but that would follow the logic you stated, and I can see how that might be the case.

[Udox]

Does anyone know (or have a link) to where I can find the new daily minimum rates - by province

[Publicus]

I'm not anti capitalist, and definitely not pro socialist, I've done very well out of the capitalist system thank you. But it does seem as if there's a layer, below which the trickle down effect stops trickling and turns into a dribble.

What percentage of the children of rice farm workers do you reckon have a realistic chance of escaping a life of poverty (other than by the routes of lotter ticket or lottery farang)? We who have done well mostly were born into these opportunities.

True, and we know it's also true that it's not a cakewalk to 'make it' being born into a developed or advanced economy/society either. Although I started a business several years ago, I took a commercial/business curriculum in high school but was bored to tears by it so learned right away I'd have to make a living doing something else. There are a lot of years between now and then but I haven't much been wanting.

Still, there are poor everywhere regardless of which 'ism' is being discussed, or which mix of 'isms' are present in an economy and society. There definitely is a dribble and the dribble occurs anywhere and everywhere. I'm hard pressed to identify any 'rich' country under any ism or isms that doesn't have upwards of 15% of the population at the poverty level, even considering those who statistically have their heads bobbing slightly above the poverty line.

So populations get it coming or going, i.e., a couple of billion living in rathole conditions on less than USD $2 per day or some couple of hundred million (aggregate) in rich countries with their noses pressed against the window. It seems unresolvable under any ism or any mix of isms.

[Luxius]

So populations get it coming or going, i.e., a couple of billion living in rathole conditions on less than USD $2 per day or some couple of hundred million (aggregate) in rich countries with their noses pressed against the window. It seems unresolvable under any ism or any mix of isms.

Wrong. It seems unresolvable under any ism - or rather: any government - currently practiced.

See my previous post for more information.

[buddy]

If they had the aspiration and desire the governments are collectively rich enough on a World-wide basis to aleviate the poverty of billions and hundreds of millions of people....we are all people of this earth.

It is the current system that is a self sustaining cycle that keeps the hidden powers of errr democratic governments (read democratic dictatorships) in power supported by large chunks of there populations because they are fed crumbs, such as a mortgage because it is better than the workhouse etc....but you are still being shafted!

Who won the last US election?, it was a foregone conclusion it was the Bankers man or the Bankers other man!

Why should they change a system when it has worked so well for them for over 300 hundred odd years...business as usual until people start questioning the system....but then again do you think you have free will?

Have you ever wondered why your vote counts for nothing and you feel disenfranchised in your own Country?

[webfact]

Cabinet Raises Minimum Wage for 71 Provinces

UPDATE : 29 December 2009

The Cabinet has resolved to raise the amount of minimum wage by 18 baht in 71 provinces from the current Bt173. Workers in Ayutthaya will see the biggest rise.

-- Tan Network 2009/12/29

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[xminator]

Multiply the wages by 5. Force half the increase into pension funds and the other half of the increase into tax. Use the tax to pay pensions for the elders that the current young people work to keep alive.

[TAWP]

Multiply the wages by 5. Force half the increase into pension funds and the other half of the increase into tax. Use the tax to pay pensions for the elders that the current young people work to keep alive.

No thanks, comrade.

[buddy]

Multiply the wages by 5. Force half the increase into pension funds and the other half of the increase into tax. Use the tax to pay pensions for the elders that the current young people work to keep alive.

No thanks, comrade.

Agree, no thank you,

Communism is not the answer its been tried and failed, you'd just kill aspiration and we go back to then who controls the money? ....and the Pigs start walking on two hind legs.