Help! Child Going Overseas!

[NADTATIDA1]

Hi all....i am writing on this forum requesting information that some may have experienced...or know a little about as regarding truths of law! my partner and i have a child aged 3+ but have split now(never married)and i was named on the birth certificate as the father and my child has my name!(on the b/c).

Since our split things have been difficult as to access to my child and the usual fall out in any break up especially in thailand!! Now we have both new partners and i believe my ex wants or is thinking to take our child out of the country(Thailand)to her new boyfriends home in europe,i do not know where i stand in this situation and am quite anxious about her just going overseas and being able to do so without any prior notifacation to me as the father.

A little advice on this matter so i know where i stand either way would be greatly appreciated.

thanks....

[H2oDunc]

As you were not married and I presume she has custody then I think you have little chance of stopping her. I might be wrong but had a friend in a similar situation and he could not stop his ex going to Norway. Good luck. You can always try the cash route?

[Mario2008]

The name on the BC is nice, but not what makes you to have chaired custody with the mother. Only if you registered the birth of the child yourself at the amphur did you legalise the child and do you have joined custody with the mother. (Your name should appear on the BC twice). if somebody else signed the birth register, you have not legalised the child and legaly you are not considerd to be the father.

If you did legalise the child, you would have joined custody with the mother and both of you can determine the place where the child lives. Thai law doesn't have any parental kidnapping laws and the mother can just take the child with her.

If you are the legal father, you could try to get sole custody of the child. But for that the mother must be a bad influence or danger to the child and the child must be better of with you.

Many countries require the permission of the father before they will allow the child to immigrate to their country, but not in the case when one parent has sole custody.

Unfortunaletly if you didn't legalise the child there is probably nothing you can do about this situation, other than to smooth things out with the mother and try to agree to some sort of arangement by which you can stay in contact with your child. Given the child's age its memories of you wil soon fade and you will become a stranger. That is one thing you will have to accept. However, when the child grows older it will be curious about his father.

[NADTATIDA1]

As you were not married and I presume she has custody then I think you have little chance of stopping her. I might be wrong but had a friend in a similar situation and he could not stop his ex going to Norway. Good luck. You can always try the cash route?

No not married and also have never applied for a passport be it thai or British!

i obviously am not concerned about my ex going anywhere she wants,but about the situation regarding taking my daughter and how easy or difficult it would be for her to gain a visa/passport for my child to go abroad

My child has a great family base in the village now and will be starting school next year.....when my ex was not there ie....with her boyfriend or working!!!..her brother and wife take care so she is settled nicely and i visit as many times as i possibly can(work)i would like her to stay in thailand and learn the language first before her having to put up with any distractions...this is all really.....just concerned!

The cash route is an option but i would rather be giving that to my daughter for her schooling!

thanks for your reply.

[NADTATIDA1]

The name on the BC is nice, but not what makes you to have chaired custody with the mother. Only if you registered the birth of the child yourself at the amphur did you legalise the child and do you have joined custody with the mother. (Your name should appear on the BC twice). if somebody else signed the birth register, you have not legalised the child and legaly you are not considerd to be the father.

If you did legalise the child, you would have joined custody with the mother and both of you can determine the place where the child lives. Thai law doesn't have any parental kidnapping laws and the mother can just take the child with her.

If you are the legal father, you could try to get sole custody of the child. But for that the mother must be a bad influence or danger to the child and the child must be better of with you.

Many countries require the permission of the father before they will allow the child to immigrate to their country, but not in the case when one parent has sole custody.

Unfortunaletly if you didn't legalise the child there is probably nothing you can do about this situation, other than to smooth things out with the mother and try to agree to some sort of arangement by which you can stay in contact with your child. Given the child's age its memories of you wil soon fade and you will become a stranger. That is one thing you will have to accept. However, when the child grows older it will be curious about his father.

many thanks for your reply!

i went with the mother to the amphur and we did the birth certificate together ...i fear this is not the same as registering my child on my own?my child has my name on the b/c and my name is on the b/c.....but not twice!

The smoothing it all out route looks the best bet!!

[Mario2008]

If she has sole custody she can just apply for a Thai passport by herself and have it wihin 4 days and it will be her decision to make.

How easy it is to get a visa would depend on the country in question.

[NADTATIDA1]

If she has sole custody she can just apply for a Thai passport by herself and have it wihin 4 days and it will be her decision to make.

How easy it is to get a visa would depend on the country in question.

So what you are saying is the thai birth certificate stands for nothing really?....even though my child has my name and my name is on it???....TIT!

Thanks again mario!

[Mario2008]

If married, the law will asume the husband is the father of the child. If not married, the law can't asume who the father is. When you go to register the birth, anybody can be named as the father. That is why the law requires the father to confirm this, that is called legalisation. In Thailand that is done by the father registering the birth of the child by himself at the amphur.

That is why only being named at the birth certificate is not enough, it doesn't confirm that you are the father. Only that someone clames that you are the father.

[simon43]

Mario2008 is quite correct in his statements that anyone can be named as the father on the birth certificate. When my 'ex' gave birth to a baby girl early last year, she succeeded in naming me as the (absent) father on the birth certificate, even though I was already divorced from her, the baby was clealy 100% Thai in features and the real Thai father was in the hospital waiting room downstairs! It required a lot of paperwork and efforts from the real father to undo this 'mischief'.

Simon

Edited December 26, 2009 by simon43

[MikeyIdea]

Everything that Mario writes is quite correct. Very little to do, I'd not only try to smooth it out though, you must get recognized as father in the eye of the law somehow, without that you are nothing and it only gets more difficult the longer time pass by

If I were you, then I would chat with the mother and if the mother doesn't agree, then I would very quickly take the issue to juvenile court. It would be good to get the question about legalisation of your child into the pipeline BEFORE the mother leaves Thailand = no valid reason not to respond to the court call. She has named you as the father on the BC so the legalization issue should be straight forward. The law allows the mother 60 days to respond (if the mother is abroad then the period is extended to 180 days). Not responding to court summons within stipulated time is her problem also if she is abroad.

My thought is that you would have a weaker case if you take things to court after the mother already has taken the kid abroad. Legalization (= you being recognised as the father in the eyes of the law) wouldn't be a problem anyway but I think custody could be. In the courts eyes, you ask for custody after the bird has left, why didn't you do it before. Apologies for the hard words. Also, the mother can now get a passport herself as she has sole custody but if you get shared custody, then both parents must sign to get a passport for the child. You can refuse but if you do, then you could push the mother to sue for sole custody

Section 1566 of Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand Book V Family

A child is subject to parental power as long as he is not sui juris.

The parental power is exercised by the father or the mother in any of the following cases;

(1) the mother or the father is dead;

(2) it is uncertain whether the mother or the father is living or dead;

(3) the mother or the father has been adjudged incompetent or quasi-incompetent;

(4) the mother or the father is placed in a hospital by reason of mental infirmity;

(5) the parental power has been granted to the father or the mother by an order of the court;

(6) the father and mother have come to such agreement as provided by the law that it can be made

I understand point 6 as; if mother and father agree, then it's possible for them to get a lawyer to write a custody agreement giving them shared 50/50 custody and it would be valid according to law. Now the mother wants to move to another country so she may not want to have court cases dragging on for 6 months or a year. Would she be willing to sign?

You need to contact a lawyer specializing in family law (not criminal law!). If you can get 50/50 custody, then you can also sue for sole custody in the future. To get that granted, it will have to be more than that the mother doesn't allow you to see your child but regardless, you can gain nothing by waiting.

Mario, have you heard anything about the interpretation of 1566 (6)? I understand it as if mum and dad agrees, then 50/50 custody could be as easy as getting a lawyer to write an agreement that both parties then sign. Sounds too simple, am I missing something?

Edited December 28, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[NADTATIDA1]

Everything that Mario writes is quite correct. Very little to do, I'd not only try to smooth it out though, you must get recognized as father in the eye of the law somehow, without that you are nothing and it only gets more difficult the longer time pass by

If I were you, then I would chat with the mother and if the mother doesn't agree, then I would very quickly take the issue to juvenile court. It would be good to get the question about legalisation of your child into the pipeline BEFORE the mother leaves Thailand = no valid reason not to respond to the court call. She has named you as the father on the BC so the legalization issue should be straight forward. The law allows the mother 60 days to respond (if the mother is abroad then the period is extended to 180 days). Not responding to court summons within stipulated time is her problem also if she is abroad.

My thought is that you would have a weaker case if you take things to court after the mother already has taken the kid abroad. Legalization (= you being recognised as the father in the eyes of the law) wouldn't be a problem anyway but I think custody could be. In the courts eyes, you ask for custody after the bird has left, why didn't you do it before. Apologies for the hard words. Also, the mother can now get a passport herself as she has sole custody but if you get shared custody, then both parents must sign to get a passport for the child. You can refuse but if you do, then you could push the mother to sue for sole custody

Section 1566 of Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand Book V Family

A child is subject to parental power as long as he is not sui juris.

The parental power is exercised by the father or the mother in any of the following cases;

(1) the mother or the father is dead;

(2) it is uncertain whether the mother or the father is living or dead;

(3) the mother or the father has been adjudged incompetent or quasi-incompetent;

(4) the mother or the father is placed in a hospital by reason of mental infirmity;

(5) the parental power has been granted to the father or the mother by an order of the court;

(6) the father and mother have come to such agreement as provided by the law that it can be made

I understand point 6 as; if mother and father agree, then it's possible for them to get a lawyer to write a custody agreement giving them shared 50/50 custody and it would be valid according to law. Now the mother wants to move to another country so she may not want to have court cases dragging on for 6 months or a year. Would she be willing to sign?

You need to contact a lawyer specializing in family law (not criminal law!). If you can get 50/50 custody, then you can also sue for sole custody in the future. To get that granted, it will have to be more than that the mother doesn't allow you to see your child but regardless, you can gain nothing by waiting.

Mario, have you heard anything about the interpretation of 1566 (6)? I understand it as if mum and dad agrees, then 50/50 custody could be as easy as getting a lawyer to write an agreement that both parties then sign. Sounds too simple, am I missing something?

Very helpful and constructive Mikey....thanks

[GarryP]

Perhaps the term legalization is misleading. In case of unmarried couples, when registering the birth or thereafter the father must "confirm" with the authorities i.e. the amphur, that he is the father of the child. In Thai they say "raprong butr", which basically means that they confirm/certify the child is theirs. Unfortunately, probably already too late in your case.

Edited December 28, 2009 by GarryP

[MikeyIdea]

You're right about the translation but I think the Thai is a bit mis-leading

Section1548. When legitimation is applied for by the father, the child and the mother must give consent to the applicant.

The mother and the child must approve, if they do not, then fathers only chance is force the issue in court.

If mother and child approve then it's possible to get a certificate of fathership (bai rapp long bott) at the Amphor. And child must be 6-7 years old normally (no fixed age mentioned). This is a bit flexible, I was lucky I suppose and Amphur issued bai rapp long bott when my daughter was only 3 years old. Normally with 3 year olds, only option is juvenile court

[Mario2008]

Mario, have you heard anything about the interpretation of 1566 (6)? I understand it as if mum and dad agrees, then 50/50 custody could be as easy as getting a lawyer to write an agreement that both parties then sign. Sounds too simple, am I missing something?

I haven't heard anything about 1566 (6). I suspect it is mostly used in cases where the parents come to a divorce at the amphur and also enter a agreement about the custody. But it can indeed be used wider. Cae law can be interesting, maybe isaanlawyers can help with answering the question.

[Mario2008]

You're right about the translation but I think the Thai is a bit mis-leading

Section1548. When legitimation is applied for by the father, the child and the mother must give consent to the applicant.

The mother and the child must approve, if they do not, then fathers only chance is force the issue in court.

If mother and child approve then it's possible to get a certificate of fathership (bai rapp long bott) at the Amphor. And child must be 6-7 years old normally (no fixed age mentioned). This is a bit flexible, I was lucky I suppose and Amphur issued bai rapp long bott when my daughter was only 3 years old. Normally with 3 year olds, only option is juvenile court

Fully agree with that assesment. The law doesn't mention a fixed age, but the norm is about 7 years. Good to hear that the amphur was so hepful in your case.

It might make a lot of differece if the officials at the amphur now you and about the situation. If they know the situation is real they will be more willing to assist.