Bumrungrad Hospital Ordered To Pay Bt12 Million To Mother Of Disabled Son

[Bagwan]

It all boils down to one basic fact. It is 100% your own responsibility to be proactive with your healthcare. No doctor or hospital in the world will be able to help you more than you help yourself. Learn about your own problem and ask your doctor specific questions and treatments. Manage your own care.

My attitude is that the doctor works for me. He can justify my treatment options clearly and answer my questions, or I go someplace else. Do not be intimidated by their "God" complex. They are just mechanics.

You beat me to it. This is my attitude in total - and that went for the UK also. In my world doctors diagnose, offer opinions (not the same as facts!) and provide counsel. They are not sergeant -majors whose bidding I must follow. If I don't like what I hear or have doubts, I get a second opinion - and then decide.

I enjoy a close relationship with an excellent and highly qualified lady doctor at Bumrungrad whose prime concern is the welfare of her patients rather than making money. We talk of many things since my progress and treatment (for deep vein thrombosis) is straightforward. She asks me about my attitude towards Thai politicians and their policies - you know who I mean - and I ask her about maladies and the practice of medicine in Thailand. I asked her the following question:-

Q. Given the education and examination processes in Thailand, would you agree that there are many practicing Thai doctors who are a danger to their patients?

A. You are an intelligent and well read man. I believe that you know the answer to that already.

After being clumsily gouged by an eminent Thai doctor at Bumrungrad I now take my HIV positive wife to a European doctor. He counselled that so that he clearly understood what he was faced with, she undergo a whole battery of tests that nobody had even mentioned in the 9 years that my wife and I have been together. The charges for his services and medicines have been about a third of what Bumrungrad levied. His clearly stated opinion is that there are no more than 13 doctors in Thailand who know enough about AIDS and HIV to treat those conditions. You can draw your own conclusions in respect of other specialisations.

One particular horror story that is worth recounting concerns a close friend. He was in some discomfort and went to a Pattaya hospital to discover what the problem was. It was diagnosed as colonic polyps. He demurred at the prospect of treatment at that hospital after getting an estimate of the charges to be levied. After shopping around he agreed to be operated on at another hospital. A few weeks later, on a visit to see his former wife and kids in Poland, he used his contacts with a professor at the local university. This eminence said that he could find no evidence of scars from an operation in the tissue of the colon or even of polyps. What he did find was a rather nasty infection that could earlier been easily treated with antibiotics. I deduce that the second hospital did not carry out an independent examination before operating, and on finding nothing, said nothing. The alternative is even more frightening!

[peecee]

As the child seems to be intellectually sound, at least there is nothing to the contrary reported, how is he going to feel as he gets older? "Of course, had we found out in time that you were abnormal, we would have aborted you and had a normal son later. As it was, we have to make do with the 12 million baht 'freak show' money".

I suggest all the bashers read "What am I doing here?" by Bruce Chatwin, in which one of the articles tells of a Spanish woman who was told by her English doctors that her unborn daughter had no arms and legs, and should be aborted. She chose to have the baby, which was born with the full complement of limbs. Food for thought.

What country were these English doctor's in?, 'cos there aren't many in the UK, especially plural!

[MAJIC]

A sad reflection on Alledgedly the best hospital in Bangkok or even Thailand,having seen several Ultrascans myself its not difficult to recognize limbs on a featus of that age.

Heartfelt sympathies to the parents,they will probably never fully recover from this terrible shock.

[Sherlocke]

2 points -

I agree that the doctor works for you and you should not be "over-awed" by these people - however they are MEANT to have in depth knowledge and training - which we don't have - there is no way you can check and double check their advice every time - and it would seem with the average Doctor in Thailand, this would be necessary. Those who train in medicine in Thai universities are often themselves from middle class, wealthy families - anyone who has had any contact with universities here will know that the culture here is to pass EVERYONE - especially if their family is known to the heads of dept. has contributed to the school etc - how can proper training be guaranteed in these circumstances?

Second point - the cost of treatment is paid by either govt taxes or insurance - so high price treatment is paid for by ALL OF US - it is re-couped either in taxes or insurance premiums. Most of the pricing is the result of gouging by hospitals and connivance of the insurance companies.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Sherlocke

[Sherlocke]

PS - following point one above - I can't see that any of the responsibility lies with the mother to check the physical state of the fetus any more than doing what she did.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Sherlocke

[Bagwan]

The 50 something lady that ultra-sounded my calf in Bumrungrad was addressed as doctor by the assistants and her name tag confirmed her status. Now I may be wrong but aren't doctors supposed to know that people are normally born with two arms and two legs? If the gynecologist received a report that no abnormalities were found, would he/she check that this was so?

[flemmie]

I went there for two departments in one day thinking "great this is a chance to go to a Western hospital" in July. Was I wrong. They charge really high prices for very little to no medical service. In both depts I went to not only did I not receive any medicine, I was provided with no printout of diagnosis or any other health information -- it was just "out you go." Went to the eye doctor first, I didn't like the way he manhandled me, and there seems something peculiarly dissatisfying in his description of why the outer edges of my eyes seem soft like egg whites. He just said "don't worry, it's like the skin on the back of your hand, it just gets soft with old age." Umm, I'm 38. I also didn't like the way he suddenly jabbed a Q-tip into the bottom of my eye and pressed it in several times while chatting with the nurse. It almost seemed like the old man and I had developed a personality conflict the way he talked to me. I went back to the front desk about a half hour later after leaving his office and just asked them, sorry what was the name of the condition of my eyes the doctor said? The receptionists all started getting furious that I would return to ask about anything. Heck they could at least given me a printout of the other health info such as when they took my blood pulse and did an eye chart "exam". Apparently nothing was entered and I had no record.

The second dept I went to was the skin section. Had some bright red spots as well as some greyish brown ones of a diff texture on various places -- back, neck, arms and even on head. I swear I wasn't in his office 3 minutes, total damage 900 baht. All he did is say you can take your shirt off, he stayed seated at his desk and glanced at me from afar and said, "oh that? that's melasma. anything else, or will that be all for today?" He didn't walk over to have a close look, he didn't try to look me over other than just ask me what "spot" I was concerned about. What if there was a real cancer on my back?

Because I was on a trip to BKK at that time there was one more dept I wanted to go to get checked out. Based on the previous two unprofessionalism I skipped the third. Total damage -- for a 7 minute eye "exam" and about 45 seconds of "skin observation (from afar)" was 1,100 baht eyes and 900 baht skin doctor. That in conjunction with a previous trip to Pattaya Memorial to get knee checked for 2500 baht only to be told "we're not sure, maybe arthritis or maybe knee damage," tells me Thailand medical is not recommended. I'd like my money back.

Had a similar experience with the dermatologist at Bumrungrad, 3 minutes, a cursory look and a new appointment for freezing treatment, 1,000 Baht... Needless to say I cancelled. Will go to one in Belgium next time I go home.

For eye treatment, nothing beats Rutnin hospital. Went the first time and had 4 hours of investigations and a laser treatment following all that, a total of 4,000 Baht and I must have seen 7 different Doctors.

Next timm you have a problem, go to see my Dr at Bumrungrad, a swiss gentleman by the name of Dr. Balankura (excellent french, english and thai) and he takes his time to diagnose. Same basic price.

[Sherlocke]

THis is turning into a damning catalogue of failures by the Thai medical profession.

This is only the people who have actually come across this thread - what proportion of the general public who use the medical system here is that? then figure how many "mistakes" "blunders" etc are made every year!

[Bagwan]

THis is turning into a damning catalogue of failures by the Thai medical profession.

This is only the people who have actually come across this thread - what proportion of the general public who use the medical system here is that? then figure how many "mistakes" "blunders" etc are made every year!

How many readers of this thread have had untoward experiences and not bothered to post? That would bump the numbers up even more.

My reservations regarding clinical practice in LoS fall mainly into one of two categories.

1. Incorrect diagnosis by junior doctors due to inexperience, lack of knowledge and massive doses of arrogance. One actually suggested that my wife take a holiday from her treatment for HIV infection. It was with great satisfaction as I sat and listened to a specialist chew him out at some length after we sought a second opinion.

2. Gouging and, at times, blatant dishonesty. In my experience there are very few who do not indulge n this disgusting practice. It seems to me that the private hospitals demand their contract staff indulge in it. A prime reason for hospitals employing doctors on a contract basis is that then the medicos have no input to policy decisions.

Speaking with a friendly nurse at a private hospital close to Pattaya she told me that she used to work at one of the Pattaya hospitals but resigned since she was unable to stomach the malpractice and deception any longer. I don't think that I am paranoid regarding the health profession but I certainly keep in mind the phrase 'caveat emptor'.

[Sherlocke]

A sad reflection on Alledgedly the best hospital in Bangkok or even Thailand,having seen several Ultrascans myself its not difficult to recognize limbs on a featus of that age.

Heartfelt sympathies to the parents,they will probably never fully recover from this terrible shock.

......and sadly - Bumrungrad IS probably as good as it gets in Thailand!

[Oberkommando]

How many readers of this thread have had untoward experiences and not bothered to post? That would bump the numbers up even more.

+1

[Bilqis]

Has anyone seen the site Bumrungraddeath.com????

[maccaroni man]

i reading all these post and i have to ask anyone to name a single hospital in the world that does not kill people. medicine is not an exact sience. their lic allows them to practice med. hence they often say "try this" i know that many of the posters come from countries with NH where the cost is incorp into their tax system so when they get billed in thailand at a private hopsital they tend to think the price is high but for those of us who come from countries where we must pay for health service, the quality, service, and care is far less costly in thailand. btw many of the doctors in the larger private hospitals have worked in europe and the us before returning to thailand. at the end of the day no place is perfect. Medicine is a service industry dealing with many variables. dr's kill, hospitals kill, systems fail, it is as true in thailand as it is in the rest of the world.

[moetownblues]

Be careful what you wish for. These costs will just be passed on to everybody.

Yes very true but this happens in every society. The hospital wont lose they can recoup

[jrbkk64]

Hi All,

recently I have had some tests/examinations done for NZ work permit reasons, was diagnosed and treated for Uveitis on a seperate occasion and all I can say is that the doctors, nurses and other staff in the Bumrungrad were excellent. Previous to my recent experieces there I have been hospitalized in the Bumrungrad for 2 days in 2001 and for a few check-ups after that. All very good. For me cost is not really an issue as I don't pay myself.

JR

[scorecard]

So I'll share my worst Thai hosp experiences:

First instance was at a so called 5 star place off Silom.

The specialist hand doctor convinced me I should have some fatty tissue removed from the palm of my hand, and assured me that the cut would be less than one centimeter and nowhere near any nerves.

After recovering from the sedation I realized that he had operated in the wrong place and the cut was a curve right across the whole palm of my hand and about 10 centimeters long.

When I asked the doctor why he operated in the wrong place he initially didn't speak then as he was looking at his notes I asked again and he admitted he had cut in the wrong place, he then said "never mind, we'll do it again". I asked whether a second attempt would be free and he was quite indignant and said "no, of course not". I indicated there would be no second operation. I now have spasmodic severe pain when there is any physical stress on the hand.

On discharge the surgeons bill was just under 80,000Baht for a 45 minute operation (this was about 8 years back). I was shocked at the bill and the young cashier was clearly also shocked. I asked him to have the bill checked and he said "I'm not allowed to query the note (re charging) that the doctor had forwarded to the cashier section".

I foolishly paid and then went to the hospital directors office and asked to see the director. "Too busy right now, come back next week". They wouldn't make an appointment for me to see the director and indicated that I would have to come to the hospital and inquire whether it was convenient at that moment. Three more tries produced nothing.

Eventually I cornered his assistant who said she couldn't discuss the matter but sort of agreed that the bill seemed high. She promised that the bill would be checked and they would call me or send an e-mail. Never heard from them ever since.

Second example was a Pattaya 5 star hospital. My daughter in law visited the dental section. The dentist slipped with his very sharp tool used to pry out plaque and the sharp point ran down her face under her mouth causing a deep gash and a lot of bleeding. The doctor initially said nothing and just stood there. The nurse acted more readily, quickly applied some pressure and some gauze and quickly took my DIL down to the emergency room where they cleaned the wound and carefully applied a number of some butterfly type things to hold the wound together. We went back to the dentist area and he made no apology and asked whether my DIL wanted to continue the treatment right away. My Thai son intervened and told the dentist he was shocked at the suggestion that the dental work continue immediately. The dentist didn't say anything, made no apology and got on with some other work just ignoring us.

We went to the cashier and guess what, they wanted to charge us quite a sum for the emergency room treatment and well as an outrageous bill for the dentist. I refused to pay and they refused to budge. I opened my phone can dialed a number. The head cashier asked me who I was calling. I said "the Tourist Police". Suddenly the bill was reviewed, the emergency room treatment was canceled and the dental bill was reduced to the charge for a quick inspection.

Third example at Bum.... hospital. I saw a female doctor who very quickly informed me that she did not answer questions from patients and that I should have more respect for educated people. I indicated that in fact I have a Ph.D. and therefore she should have more respect for me. I paid the bill and left.

A few weeks later I went back for another reason and I indicated that I did not want to see Dr. X under any circumstances and insisted that I be assigned to a different doctor. Lots of 'yes yes yes' and I went and sat down. Shortly later I walked into the doctors room and it's ms X. I walked out, went back to the station and asked why they assigned me to ms X against my instruction. Answer "It doesn't matter, you have to take the doctor you are assigned to".

I demanded to see another doctor. Guess what, when the bill is prepared there are charges for two doctors. I refused to pay and went searching for the hospital GM's office.

By coincidence I asked a farang in a suit (in the admin wing) where I could find the GM. He was the GM. He listened and then called the head cashier and told her to remove the bill for the first doctor.

Back at the cashier counter I paid the bill and in the background there's lots of comments (in Thai, which I understand well) about the rude farang.

Fourth example. My three year old granddaughter had a very high temperature and we took her to the emergency at Bum..... Doctor told the nurses to bath her with lots of ice water, then gave us a diagnosis indicating that it was not serious and told us to go home.

About 2 hours later we went back, more ice water baths, different doctor and another (different) diagnosis.

Two hours later we go back again and more ice water baths and they tell us again to go home and there's a third (different) diagnosis. My son and I had to insist strongly that she be admitted for detailed observation.

Next morning we asked if it was possible for one of the very thorough outpatients children's doctors (we gave his name) to visit and he did. He checked my granddaughter thoroughly, explained continuously what he was looking for etc., and then indicated that she had pneumonia and that he would visit twice every day, and suggested she stay, on a drip, for three or four days.

Same evening I went to the hospital after work and, with my Thai son (the patient is his daughter) we went to the nurses station to ask for an up to date report etc. First response was that they were too busy and the nurse indicated that it was not my business to be asking questions. My son, by now pretty angry, insisted that the nurse apologize. She then found a folder and started to read the doctors comments and it was obvious it was the wrong patient. Nurse then found the right folder made no apology, loudly read the comments and also commented rudely that it was not nice that the little girl have a Thai first name and a western last name.

Today I never take my family to the so called 5 star places. The whole family goes to the Sri Racha government hospital which is absolutely excellent and the fees are tiny.

[Fishbucket]

I wonder if the hospital is insured against this type of occurrence , or if it will have to pay itself.

If so, looks like fees will be increasing.

[Curt1591]

Has anyone seen the site Bumrungraddeath.com????

You mean to tell me I had to dig that one up for you wilko? That the misdiagnosed fetus was the worst you found?