How To Make Sure Your Child Is Taken Care Of After You Die

[torrenova]

Basically, I can't trust the mother of my child to manage a large inheritance should I die. I think that the likely outcome would be that at some point, corners would be cut because money had been wasted on well, whatever. Obvious cuts are education and there being nothing left for overseas university for instance, despite there being more than sufficient originally.

I understand that Thailand does not have trust laws as that would be the obvious way to deal with things. I also understand that I can set up a trust outside of Thailand and that trust can manage disbursements to the mother of my child. The trust could also handle the purchase of vehicles, payments of insurances, payment of school fees etc. and be flexible enough to allow disbursements for specific needs over and above the monthly stipend.

What about house and land ownership ? Whatever solution is reached, it cannot allow the mother to raise capital against any asset provided. Can children own property which their relations cannot steal from them or mortgage against ?

Has anyone gone into this sort of thing in much detail or come up with another solution ? Whatever solution cannot accrue massive fees but it must remove the risk to the child not having the things it needs.

The solution I have at this time needs reviewing and I need to cover a more complex set of outcomes. I will visit lawyers but I would much prefer to know as much as possible and reduce their bill to advice and implementation rather than fact finding.

[MikeyIdea]

I am sitting in the same boat, sort of. My daughters mother would never be able to handle large sums of money and make it last if I were to pass away. I have no solution for cash but the Tisco provident fund I have can go to any blood relative, it's currently sitting on my aging mother in Europe. It could maybe be possible to negotiate with them www dot tiscoasset dot com

Chanoot for the land we live on is in my daughters name. This means that land can not be sold or mortgaged or leased for more than 3 years without going to juvenile court. They wouldn't allow mother to sell land to buy a car but maybe they would to be able to continue education, I don't know.

Section 1574 A person exercising parental power cannot enter into any of the following juristic acts with regard to the property of the minor except with the permission of the court

(1) selling, exchanging, sale with right of redemption, letting out property on hire-purchase, mortgaging, releasing mortgage to mortgagor or transferring the right of mortgage on immovable property or on

mortgageable movable property

(2) extinguishing the whole or a part of real right of the minor on immovable property

(3) creating servitude, right of inhabitation, right of superficies, usufruct or any charge on immovable property

(4) disposing of the whole or a part of the claim the purpose of which is to create real right on immovable property or on mortgageable property, or the claim the purpose of which is to have a real right on such property of the minor relieved

(5) letting immovable property for more than three years

(6) creating any commitments the purpose of which is to achieve the objective as provided in (1) (2) or(3)

(7) making a loan of money

(8) making a gift, except out of the income of the minor on the minor's behalf for charitable, social or moral purposes, and suitable to the minor's condition in life

(9) accepting a gift subject to any condition or charge, or refusing a gift

(10) giving guarantee by any means whatsoever which may cause the minor to be compelled to perform an obligation or to enter into other juristic act, as requiring the minor to perform an obligation to other person or on behalf of other person

(11) making benefit out of the property other than those provided in section 1598/4(1)(2) or(3)

(12) making a compromise

(13)submitting a dispute to arbitration

Edited January 4, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[SantiSuk]

I'm a Brit in exactly the same boat. A goodly amount of money, a wife who has no financial management experience and my first child born 3 weeks ago.

My temporary fix at least has been to ask the Trustees under my revised UK Will to drip feed money for the first few years and to ensure that my daughter is taken care of. You need to have Trustees you can trust (although a lawyer would do it for a fee). You just get the charges for setting up/revising the Will. No need for special Trust set-up fees. PM me if you want me to send you a redacted copy of the Will (which was done with UK legal advice only)

I may need to alter this when I have given further thought to UK inheritance tax, thought about a Thai Will to dovetail with my UK Will and my Thai Prenuptial Agreement and considered whether I am likely to ever change from UK tax residence status.

I'm quite cost conscious generally (see my stalwart defence posts of Air Asia!) but this is one area I do not stint on getting good paid-for advice - I'm not suggesting you do BTW. The problem is that if you want to do it really thoroughly you need advice on both your 'home country' and Thai situations and need to consider financial planning in the round. I'm not sure one advisor can handle all that and I don't look forward to trying to get more than one lawyer to cooperate. If someone knows a top quality Anglo-Thai lawyer on family law I'm in the market for such.

Edited January 4, 2010 by SantiSuk

[oracle]

I am sitting in the same boat, sort of. My daughters mother would never be able to handle large sums of money and make it last if I were to pass away. I have no solution for cash but the Tisco provident fund I have can go to any blood relative, it's currently sitting on my aging mother in Europe. It could maybe be possible to negotiate with them www dot tiscoasset dot com

Chanoot for the land we live on is in my daughters name. This means that land can not be sold or mortgaged or leased for more than 3 years without going to juvenile court. They wouldn't allow mother to sell land to buy a car but maybe they would to be able to continue education, I don't know.

Section 1574 A person exercising parental power cannot enter into any of the following juristic acts with regard to the property of the minor except with the permission of the court

(1) selling, exchanging, sale with right of redemption, letting out property on hire-purchase, mortgaging, releasing mortgage to mortgagor or transferring the right of mortgage on immovable property or on

mortgageable movable property

(2) extinguishing the whole or a part of real right of the minor on immovable property

(3) creating servitude, right of inhabitation, right of superficies, usufruct or any charge on immovable property

(4) disposing of the whole or a part of the claim the purpose of which is to create real right on immovable property or on mortgageable property, or the claim the purpose of which is to have a real right on such property of the minor relieved

(5) letting immovable property for more than three years

(6) creating any commitments the purpose of which is to achieve the objective as provided in (1) (2) or(3)

(7) making a loan of money

(8) making a gift, except out of the income of the minor on the minor's behalf for charitable, social or moral purposes, and suitable to the minor's condition in life

(9) accepting a gift subject to any condition or charge, or refusing a gift

(10) giving guarantee by any means whatsoever which may cause the minor to be compelled to perform an obligation or to enter into other juristic act, as requiring the minor to perform an obligation to other person or on behalf of other person

(11) making benefit out of the property other than those provided in section 1598/4(1)(2) or(3)

(12) making a compromise

(13)submitting a dispute to arbitration

If were are quoting from the civil Code: Section 1687. If the testator desires to dispose of his property in favor of a minor or of a person adjudged incompetent or quasi-incompetent or of a person admitted into a hospital for unsoundness of mind but wishes to entrust the custody and management thereof to a person other than the parents, guardian, custodian or curator, he must appoint a controller of property by will.

Such appointment of a controller of property cannot be made for a longer period than the minority or the adjudication of incompetency or quasi-incompetency or the duration of the admittance into hospital as the case may be.

[Pakboong]

While you are still alive, ensure you give your child what is needed to survive on their own. That includes many things to include education, skills, etc.... If you choose a skill that will always be in demand for a decent fee, I don't see how you can go wrong.

[SantiSuk]

"Such appointment of a controller of property cannot be made for a longer period than the minority or the adjudication of incompetency or quasi-incompetency or the duration of the admittance into hospital as the case may be."

Useful thanks. Do you happen to know what age 'minority' ceases in Thailand?

[MikeyIdea]

Majority is reached at 20 in Thailand

[torrenova]

Thanks for the replies so far. Interesting that I am not the only one who has thought this far out in advance with a young child to take care of. My daughter is 3 next birthday.

I am currently looking at having some form of trust set up outside of Thailand, though not necessarily in the UK. That will hold the bulk of my assets. I have contacted a couple of Thai legal firms (not Somchai and Somchai) and asked them for their appraisal of a system where they would act as a local point of contact and could perhaps handle some financial matters.

Let me say straight off that I do not trust any reference to any Thai law. It can be avoided, bent and downright ignored if those with power can benefit from it. In addition, I do not trust any Thai lawyer who I have come across to date. Perhaps the most famous legal firm, with whom I have contracted on a couple of matters can be trusted, but they view westerners as idiots to be fleeced and their quotations bear no relevance to the work required. So even at the top end, I worry that the best there is in Thailand would simply seek to feather their own nest through outrageous charges, knowing full well that my partner is ill equipped to enter battle with them, unlike myself.

That bring me back to a jurisdiction I know is less corrupt, the UK and her territories. For some of you, it will be another country.

One poster said he was wary of charges. I am very concerned that the people left behind are not able to understand what is happening. I do not have any family to assist me, though I am hoping a good friend would act as an advisor and trustee. I do not see how one can agree limits on future charges but perhaps, once the exact nature of the trust has been confirmed, it will be easier to stipulate that for example, the fee charges cannot exceed X hours at a mid ranking legal professional's hourly rate. I don't know.

As this is therapeutic for me and helps me to visualise things more clearly, I will put down what I think are the requirements from the recipient's point of view.

Initial

Property to be bought if not already bought. If currently on a mortgage in partner's name then there is some need to pay off the mortgage but not give control to the partner. I hope to achieve this with a variable second charge over the property. Anyway, it is not worked out yet !

Ongoing

Monthly stipend

Payment of school fees direct to the school. I have heard at least one horror story of the mother doing a deal to take back a percentage of the fees in collusion with the school.

Renewal of health, house and car insurances. I am presuming easy to do with AA Insurance who can deal with either the trustee or potentially with the Thai lawyer.

Replacement of vehicle every X years. She is not capable of doing this and would be royally ripped off. There exists the potential to try and sell the vehicle or raise a loan against it if in her name. I need a work around for this, perhaps the car is held in a Thai company name or a foreign company name. I don't know. I do know that if I was replacing it every 3 years for instance, then a 1m vehicle should be worth about 700k and it would be pretty easy to raise 500k against it.

Periodic

There may be a desire to move house, though I suspect any such request before my daughter finishes school would be an attempt to get her hands on money.

Overseas holidays. Travel and holidays should be paid for out of the monthly stipend but that is unrealistic I fear. Better to cut the stipend and have the trustees allocate funds. Need some way for this not to be abused when no travel actually undertaken.

Overseas university education. Again, all needed to be paid direct but a stipend for my daughter once at university, (limited stipend prior to university but her own money, not having to ask her mother). Trustees to assist in obtaining accommodation and all settlement issues.

Post university, or age 25 or so, access to most of the remaining assets in the trust. Mother to receive lifetime stipend.

Other

How to deal with any subsequent relationship where the male partner wanted her to move to his country, if applicable. I look at the negatives first and my partner would be a very attractive catch for some low life, western as well as the obvious hoards of Thais who will come sniffing around. You cannot make conditions too harsh but neither too lax as it would be things like this where someone unscrupulous would seek to gain financially.

Probably thinking how much to pay out monthly and then how to increase that. Also how to deal with ad hoc requests for the inevitable eventualities I have not been able to consider. How to separate the near truths from the inevitable lies and bullshit by people who do not know the Thais or Thai culture.

Then there is the business in Thailand to consider. I am not sure that I want it held in an overseas trust (shares in the Thai company) and yet I do not want her to be able to sell a 20m business for 5m for example. There is no reputable business agent in Thailand, they are all crooks. Asking anyone else to assist in the sale would most likely lead to collusion and fraud to defraud her of the full price or even collude with her to sell it in some underhand way. Very difficult to deal with that scenario.

So how do you protect your child after you are gone ? Please feel totally free to criticise or offer any comments. This is a learning process and I am really glad that some others think strongly enough to try and find a suitable solution to the problems we all admit we could face were we to die before our children grow up.

If anyone wants to go to emails on this, I would be happy to combine any ideas we have via email.

[MrWiggle]

I have a trusted lawyer in my home country to administer my estate....which includes making decisions on expenditure when and as required. My will allowed for some dispursement at time of death along with other directions.

This was made some time ago and needs ammendement now more along the lines mentioned here, particulalry now as we have some thai based assets since the will was made.

[torrenova]

I should perhaps add in that I do love this woman and she has many redeeming qualities but she has let herself down in the past and if she is honest, she will admit her limitations. However, she can be easily led. In the wider family there are those who have already proved themselves to be cheats, liars, good for nothings and thieves. That they were depriving my child of anything would not cause then one second thought. Add in the extra attention a large sum of money or stipend can bring and you have too many jackals to fend off without some additional protection.

As to Mr Wiggle, I understand that it is commonplace to have a Thai will and a non Thai will, each dealing with the assets in their jurisdiction.