Force 'excessive' In Muslim Unrest

[stumonster]

Force 'excessive' in Muslim unrest

From correspondents in Bangkok

April 25, 2005

INDEPENDENT investigations into the deaths of nearly 200 Thai Muslims in unrest last year accused the security forces of excessive force and negligence, in findings published for the first time today.

The investigations conducted last year by two independent panels were never released, despite the outrage over two controversial clashes between authorities and Islamic militants and protesters.

But the newly-appointed National Reconciliation Commission headed by respected former prime minister Anand Panyarachun, released slightly edited versions of the reports as a goodwill gesture just days before the first anniversary of one of the bloodiest days in modern Thai history.

Thai newspapers today reprinted lengthy excerpts of the findings from investigations into the killings at the southern Krue Se mosque, which was stormed by authorities on April 28, 2004, and the deaths of Muslim demonstrators in Tak Bai district on October 25.

The investigation into the Krue Se killings found that while officials needed to use weapons to protect themselves and innocent residents, that security forces did not give negotiations a chance to work.

"Krue Se mosque was not at the centre of the community, and the number of protesters was low. Surrounding the mosque together with negotiation efforts could have led them to surrender," the report said.

"The probe found that officials had no experience and training to face this kind of crisis situation and end it in a peaceful way. Government should address this issue to prevent similar incidents in the future," it said, according to Thai papers.

Thirty-two armed insurgents were killed as they hid inside the centuries-old Krue Se mosque that was stormed by security forces during a day of attacks in southern Thailand that left a total of 108 militants and five police and soldiers dead.

The investigation identified 11 senior officials who were involved in the seige, including former deputy prime minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, former fourth army commander Lieutenant General Pisarn Wattanawongkiri, and General Phanlob Pinmanee, the deputy director for Internal Security Operation Command.

The investigation into the Tak Bai protest – when 87 Muslim protestors died, mainly of suffocation when they were detained, bound and then piled onto military trucks – also found security forces poorly trained to deal with protesters.

Pisarn resigned after the Tak Bai deaths, although the investigation released today did not name him.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/commo...55E1702,00.html

NOTE:- Please discuss this rationally - If you wish to post replys that say "shoot them" all or suchlike .... DON'T ...

[devildog683]

shoot em all

oops

[Kerryd]

It won't change anything. They don't want peace, they want the entire world converted to their way of thinking. You could give them the 3 southern provinces outright, and within a couple of years, the violence would be cropping up in the provinces nearest them, and they would be using the same sham justifications that they are using now.

Nobody wants to speak or acknowledge the truth, for fear of being branded racist or discriminatory, despite the evidence. This is about certain people wanting power over others, and willing to go to any lengths to get that power.

It's not limited to Thailand either. I see it around me every day, and read about it in other parts of the world pretty much every day (Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Phillippines, China, India) (it goes with the job).

This isn't something that's going to go away any time soon, and will be extremely difficult to deal with. If you treat them with kid gloves (i.e. with kindness and respect), they'll throw it back in your face and call you soft and decadent. If you fight fire with fire, they'll throw it back at you and call you cruel and insensitive.

It's a lose-lose situation for the time being.

[thaiwing]

(Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Phillippines, China, India) (it goes with the job).

Air-hostess, yes.....anyone else wanna guess

[ozzydom]

JIHAD

The lesser jihadis defined as meaning "holy war"against infidel (non-muslim) lands and subjects. It has both legal and doctrinal significance in that it is prescribed by the KORAN and mainstream muslim hadiths (recorded sayings and actions ascribed to the Prophet Muhammad and accorded a status on a par with revelation. "Holy War" is the sole form of war that is theoretically permissable in mainstream Islam.

Muslim law has traditionally divided up the world into dar al-Islam (abode of Islam) and dar al-harb (abode of war, that is,of non-muslim rule). As Islam, is the last, most superior and universal of mans divinely ordained religions, it is believed that the entire world must ultimately surrender to its rule and faith. Until that time, a jihad against non-muslims neighbours and neighbouring lands is the duty of all adult, male and able bodied Muslims.According to this traditional view,Muslims who die in jihad automatically become martyrs of the faith and are awarded a special place in paradise.. (*editted from Encarta).

How do you negotiate with people with this belief.? SEND THEM TO PARADISE..

[Thomas_Merton]

JIHAD

The lesser jihadis defined as meaning "holy war"against infidel (non-muslim) lands and subjects. It has both legal and doctrinal significance in that it is prescribed by the KORAN and mainstream muslim hadiths (recorded sayings and actions ascribed to the Prophet Muhammad and accorded a status on a par with revelation. "Holy War" is the sole form of war that is theoretically permissable in mainstream Islam.

Muslim law has traditionally divided up the world into dar al-Islam (abode of Islam) and dar al-harb (abode of war, that is,of non-muslim rule). As Islam, is the last, most superior and universal of mans divinely ordained religions, it is believed that the entire world must ultimately surrender to its rule and faith. Until that time, a jihad against non-muslims neighbours and neighbouring lands is the duty of all adult, male and able bodied Muslims.According to this traditional view,Muslims who die in jihad automatically become martyrs of the faith and are awarded a special place in paradise.. (*editted from Encarta).

How do you negotiate with people with this belief.? SEND THEM TO PARADISE..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you negotiate with people who think the truth is found in Encarta?

[PeaceBlondie]

The opening line of this post could have been referring to the Thaksin government: "It won't change anything. They don't want peace, they want the entire world converted to their way of thinking."

Likewise, the idea that Moslems want a holy war type of jihad falls into the same category as the Crusades that sacked the Moslem world, the pogroms that Gentiles waged against Jews in the name of a saviour whose real name is 'Prince of Peace.' I could find you a quote by a senior monk in VietNam who said that it's against the teachings of the Lord Buddha to kill people, but I thought Thaksin said that yesterday, too.

Unless your religious/ethical beliefs firmly reject violence against human beings, and you practice such faith accordingly, your 'religion' isn't worth anything.

Thailand has lost face, world-wide, over these excessive uses of force against the Thais in the South. Their Majesties, the King and the Queen, appear to be speaking in accord with the teachings of the Lord Buddha.

[ozzydom]

JIHAD

The lesser jihadis defined as meaning "holy war"against infidel (non-muslim) lands and subjects. It has both legal and doctrinal significance in that it is prescribed by the KORAN and mainstream muslim hadiths (recorded sayings and actions ascribed to the Prophet Muhammad and accorded a status on a par with revelation. "Holy War" is the sole form of war that is theoretically permissable in mainstream Islam.

Muslim law has traditionally divided up the world into dar al-Islam (abode of Islam) and dar al-harb (abode of war, that is,of non-muslim rule). As Islam, is the last, most superior and universal of mans divinely ordained religions, it is believed that the entire world must ultimately surrender to its rule and faith. Until that time, a jihad against non-muslims neighbours and neighbouring lands is the duty of all adult, male and able bodied Muslims.According to this traditional view,Muslims who die in jihad automatically become martyrs of the faith and are awarded a special place in paradise.. (*editted from Encarta).

How do you negotiate with people with this belief.? SEND THEM TO PARADISE..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you negotiate with people who think the truth is found in Encarta?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

iT.M instead of snide remarks, give us an answer to the initial post

[Thomas_Merton]

JIHAD

The lesser jihadis defined as meaning "holy war"against infidel (non-muslim) lands and subjects. It has both legal and doctrinal significance in that it is prescribed by the KORAN and mainstream muslim hadiths (recorded sayings and actions ascribed to the Prophet Muhammad and accorded a status on a par with revelation. "Holy War" is the sole form of war that is theoretically permissable in mainstream Islam.

Muslim law has traditionally divided up the world into dar al-Islam (abode of Islam) and dar al-harb (abode of war, that is,of non-muslim rule). As Islam, is the last, most superior and universal of mans divinely ordained religions, it is believed that the entire world must ultimately surrender to its rule and faith. Until that time, a jihad against non-muslims neighbours and neighbouring lands is the duty of all adult, male and able bodied Muslims.According to this traditional view,Muslims who die in jihad automatically become martyrs of the faith and are awarded a special place in paradise.. (*editted from Encarta).

How do you negotiate with people with this belief.? SEND THEM TO PARADISE..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you negotiate with people who think the truth is found in Encarta?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

iT.M instead of snide remarks, give us an answer to the initial post

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't need to. Just read PeaceBlondie. This posting says it all:

The opening line of this post could have been referring to the Thaksin government: "It won't change anything. They don't want peace, they want the entire world converted to their way of thinking."

Likewise, the idea that Moslems want a holy war type of jihad falls into the same category as the Crusades that sacked the Moslem world, the pogroms that Gentiles waged against Jews in the name of a saviour whose real name is 'Prince of Peace.' I could find you a quote by a senior monk in VietNam who said that it's against the teachings of the Lord Buddha to kill people, but I thought Thaksin said that yesterday, too.

Unless your religious/ethical beliefs firmly reject violence against human beings, and you practice such faith accordingly, your 'religion' isn't worth anything.

Thailand has lost face, world-wide, over these excessive uses of force against the Thais in the South. Their Majesties, the King and the Queen, appear to be speaking in accord with the teachings of the Lord Buddha.

[Pepe']

It won't change anything. They don't want peace, they want the entire world converted to their way of thinking. You could give them the 3 southern provinces outright, and within a couple of years, the violence would be cropping up in the provinces nearest them, and they would be using the same sham justifications that they are using now.

Nobody wants to speak or acknowledge the truth, for fear of being branded racist or discriminatory, despite the evidence. This is about certain people wanting power over others, and willing to go to any lengths to get that power.

It's not limited to Thailand either. I see it around me every day, and read about it in other parts of the world pretty much every day (Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Phillippines, China, India) (it goes with the job).

This isn't something that's going to go away any time soon, and will be extremely difficult to deal with. If you treat them with kid gloves (i.e. with kindness and respect), they'll throw it back in your face and call you soft and decadent. If you fight fire with fire, they'll throw it back at you and call you cruel and insensitive.

It's a lose-lose situation for the time being.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very well said. Is there a rebuttle to dispute this thought?

[Pepe']

The opening line of this post could have been referring to the Thaksin government: "It won't change anything. They don't want peace, they want the entire world converted to their way of thinking."

Likewise, the idea that Moslems want a holy war type of jihad falls into the same category as the Crusades that sacked the Moslem world, the pogroms that Gentiles waged against Jews in the name of a saviour whose real name is 'Prince of Peace.'  I could find you a quote by a senior monk in VietNam who said that it's against the teachings of the Lord Buddha to kill people, but I thought Thaksin said that yesterday, too.

Unless your religious/ethical beliefs firmly reject violence against human beings, and you practice such faith accordingly, your 'religion' isn't worth anything.

Thailand has lost face, world-wide, over these excessive uses of force against the Thais in the South.  Their Majesties, the King and the Queen, appear to be speaking in accord with the teachings of the Lord Buddha.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds good on paper but so does communism and capitalism. When you put the human element in greed and envy contaminate even the purest ideology. In some cases even Buddhism.

There is no solution for this problem. This time period, Kali Yuga wa, violence and quarrel of all sorts are the standard. According to the Vedas anyway.

I have spent time in combat. It is frustrating to know that we really can not stop Jihad. At least not the way we are going.

My personal choice has been not to kill even animals for my survival for the past 31 years.

Tofu again!!!

It is only frustration, sadness and anger that make me fantasize that "Lighting Up" the

Musilm radical nations will solve anything.

However showing compassion, tolerance and "turning the other cheek" I'm afraid will just get your head lopped off with this crew...

[ozzydom]

It won't change anything. They don't want peace, they want the entire world converted to their way of thinking. You could give them the 3 southern provinces outright, and within a couple of years, the violence would be cropping up in the provinces nearest them, and they would be using the same sham justifications that they are using now.

Nobody wants to speak or acknowledge the truth, for fear of being branded racist or discriminatory, despite the evidence. This is about certain people wanting power over others, and willing to go to any lengths to get that power.

It's not limited to Thailand either. I see it around me every day, and read about it in other parts of the world pretty much every day (Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Phillippines, China, India) (it goes with the job).

This isn't something that's going to go away any time soon, and will be extremely difficult to deal with. If you treat them with kid gloves (i.e. with kindness and respect), they'll throw it back in your face and call you soft and decadent. If you fight fire with fire, they'll throw it back at you and call you cruel and insensitive.

It's a lose-lose situation for the time being.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very well said. Is there a rebuttle to dispute this thought?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As in most cultures and religions,the extremists are only a tiny minority and the majority should not be persecuted for the actions of the few, but how do you negotiate with a pillion with a fist full of revolver or the bomber who kills and maims even people of their own faith.. there are wiser than we all around the world facing this dilemma ,but who has the answer.. ?????

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

Ok, let me whip out the disclaimer before I shed light…

I am;

1) American and hold my Great Nation’s culture close to heart. While I am not blind to her many short comings, I love her for all of her blessings and Ills alike.

2) NOT Muslim, Wiccan actually

3) Don’t condone terrorism that takes the lives of non combatants. War is War, and it is ######, but doubly so when our women and children shed blood.

Now that being said I’m getting sick of all this anti Semitic (Arabs are a Semitic people too), anti Islam crap. It’s like everyone thinks it’s cool to hate Muslims because of a hand full of shouda-been-abortons. Yes there are scumbags that use the Quran to justify horrid acts of violence and cold blooded murder in some kind of twisted attempt to buy their way into Paradise. This is vile. But when we look at the actions of Muslim people historically and compare them to say those of the myriad of Christian faiths they come up pleasantly short in the bloodshed department. It is only now that we live in the post 9/11 FOX “news” era that they are demonized as being the worst thing since taxes. But this fact is not surprisingly over looked.

You wanna talk religious based hate? Lets talk about Exodus 22:18 of the Christian’s Bible “Thou shall suffer not a Witch to live”. Screw conversion, They are told directly in their bible to KILL ME and any other pagans. So let’s really drop the finger pointing cause in the Christian vs. Muslim sencerio it’s truly a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Now let’s take the word Jihad for a moment and instead of asking Encarta let’s ask the people who actually invented the word. This is an excerpt from a website www.whyislam.org and this is something I can confirm from living in Middle East for years and getting to know the people and their ways.

The word Jihad comes from the root word jahada, which means to struggle. So jihad is literally an act of struggling. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said that the greatest jihad is to struggle with the insidious suggestions of one’s own soul. Thus jihad primarily refers to the inner struggle of being a person of virtue and submission to God in all aspects of life.

Secondarily, jihad refers to struggle against injustice. Islam, like many other religions, allows for armed self-defense, or retribution against tyranny, exploitation, and oppression. The Glorious Qur’an says:

“And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? - Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

[Al-Qur’an 4:75]

Jihad simply means struggle and to the average Muslim it’s the struggle to live life as dictated by the Quran, and resist the daily temptations to do bad stuff (to put it perhaps overly simply). It has nothing to do with making the world Muslim. That world conversion bit is the realm of the Christians with all their missionaries and the whole “Saved” concept where mankind is doomed to ###### if they aren’t saved and thus the duty of a good Christian is too “Save” as many as he can. Like say Mother Teresa for example. Had she had her way everyone the world over would have excepted Christ as their personal Savior, dose that make her as bad as a Muslim who would like to see the world accept Allah?

Anyway, Bottom line is this, Are the rebels in the south causing problems and being generally screwed up? Yes. Was excessive action taken against them? In some cases, I’m sure emotions ran high on both sides and it got very excessive.

That’s it, why must it always turn into a Muslim bashing thread?

We either learn to live together or mourn apart.

[PeaceBlondie]

You asked, "there are wiser than we all around the world facing this dilemma ,but who has the answer.. ????? "

A guy had the following answers, all of which have proven to be quite practical and successful in various ways: "May the peacemakers be blessed so that they are called God's children; turn the other cheek, walk the second mile, give him your cloak also, love your enemies so that you be God's children. Put away the sword; those that live by the sword, die by the sword. Love your enemies."

Edited April 25, 2005 by PeaceBlondie