Need Advice Regarding Custody Of My Daughter

[anon345535]

hi, i realise there are a substansial amount of posts on this forum regarding child custody, most of which i have read but instead of posting at the bottom of someone else's i decided to start my own.

i have a beautiful daughter who will be 3 in may. i currently still live with her mother. approximately 4 years ago the relationship between myself and my partner was drawing to it's inevitable conclusion after approxiamtely 12 months. she obviously sensed this, stopped taking birth control and got pregnant. when she finally told me she was pregnant i went back to the UK to think about things. i returned 6 weeks later with the intention of creating the best possible life i could for my daughter even though i had little respect for her mother. when my daughter was born we lived in lumpini but shortly after we moved to bangplee in a nice, new, clean estate with security, childrens playgrounds etc. as i thought it was a much nicer enviroment for my daughter to grow up in.

the relationship between us as parents gradually deteriorated even further over time and i really didn't know what was the best option. do i just leave and go back to the UK leaving my daughter in the incapable hands of her mother and her family? do i take my daughter with me? or do i stay and see how things progress? i decided to stay as the few times i did go back to the uk for 3-4 weeks all i could think about was my daughter and if she was safe, i really didn't want to take her away from her mother even though imo she was a bad influence/mother.

recently things have really come to a head. on january 3rd i need to do a visa run to cambodia, what usually happens is i drive the car into the city and my "gf" drives it back with my daughter asleep in the back. it was really important for me that i make this trip on time as i have overstays scattered around my passport and my last one i was warned not to create myself further problems (which tbh were all my own doing). i went to sleep at 9p.m. when i woke at 3am to shower my "gf" wasn't home, neither was the car. after 10 missed calls she finally phoned to say she was on her way home and returned at 4.15a.m DRUNK, leaving me with 45 minutes to get into the city find parking and get the bus to cambodia. i suppose for a lot of people this doesn't sound like much, but it's this irresponsible selfish behaviour i have had to contend with on pratically a daily basis for the last 3 years almost. i could of quite easily arranged a taxi in advance, but what would i have done with my daughter?

these late nights have become frequent since the turn of the new year (every night since) when i quizzed her about them she said she had a job in a "discotheque" on srinakarin. when i asked why she arrives home at 7, 8, 9, 10 a.m she said she sleeps at her sisters house (15 minutes away) because she is drunk. i asked her why it is then that sometimes she comes home around 4a.m... she couldn't give me an answer and just shrugged the question off.

today i woke around 6a.m. i got myself showered etc. woke my daughter up got her breakfast, watched cartoons with her for an hour got her showered, cleaned teeth, dressed and ready for school and waited for her mother to return. i had to phone her at 9.30a.m to tell her i needed the car to take our daughter to school. she said she was on the way home. i called again 30 minutes later asking why it's taking her so long to return from her sisters that lives 15 minutes away, shes said she stayed at a friends house last night. i knew otherwise.

when she returned i confronted her about her behaviour and asked if she was freelancing (i didn't ask quite as politely as that) she admitted she was, all of which i have on camera. i even found condoms in her handbag.

now tbh i really couldn't give a shit about what she get's up to, we have probably had sex 5 times in the last 2 years, what i do care about is the her selfish behaviour and the bad influence she will be on my daughter, so i would like, if possible to gain full custody of my daughter and, albeit relectantly, remove her mothers influence and leave her where i found her.

any advice would be greatly appreciated. and to save anyone asking, yes she was a 'hostess' when i met her, she was attending college and trying to make a better life for herself. something she never really continued for very long after falling pregnant.

thx

Edited January 12, 2010 by c411um

[MikeyIdea]

Not an unusual situation, first of all I must say that I think you have done the right thing so far, trying to do the best of an in the long run impossible situation.

A couple to questions to clear:

I assume that you never legally registered the marriage

I assume that your name is on the Birth certificate as father

I assume that you were not the one registering the childs birth (birth informant at the left bottom)

You are (sort of) not even a relative of your own child yet according to the law. You must prove that first in a court of law - but not yet

You are now in a perfect and horrible situation depending on what you need to do... Perfect because you can gather evidence, horrible because you have to try to make your situation last while you do so

Can you get sole custody? Depends on the evidence you gather. I think difficult but yes

Can you get this and also not have to pay money to the mother? Depends on the evidence you gather. I think difficult but yes

You need patience, you need to start to write a diary where you enter something every day, and you need video evidence, good video evidence of;

1) How good and suitable YOU are as a parent. First priority - If you can't prove that, then you're not going to be able to get sole custody. If you can, then you will get minimum shared custody.

2) How bad and unreliable the mother is as a mother

2 things are always better than one; You do + mother does not. Pay everything when it comes to education and health for the kid and keep the receipts of course. Take her to school, or if you don't arrange someone who does, mother does not. You go to teachers meetings at school, mother does not. You take her to hospital, mother does not. You make sure the kid gets enough sleep, mother does not. Food the same. Happily offer to do these things and the mother is probably not going to miss the opportunity to do something else. It's pure pleasure to do anyway

Some people who has posted here suggest that it is "too much" to present the mother as an alcoholic, prostitute, whatever, but I disagree. Thai law places the child first always; There is nothing wrong in a lawyer presenting to the court that the father worries about the bad influence that the mother has on the child when she often comes home 3 – 4 AM drunk – here's the video evidence by he way, that the father worries about the mother not coming home at all often, the father worries that the mother cannot be trusted to provide even the basics like food and education - here's the video evidence by he way…

Let her dig her own grave; create an environment suitable for gathering evidence in. Don't nag too much on that she comes home drunk late night or the next day. Even consider giving her taxi money if you need the car the following day maybe, just gather as much ugly video evidence as possible while you can. The mother is not going to give you the opportunity to continue to do so once she knows that you're filing for sole custody of the child – that's her income guarantee…

There are still many unknowns of course; Income? Your status in Thailand? Tourist visa - continuity of care? …

Contact a lawyer specializing in custody cases and ask him what kind of evidence he will need to be able to get you sole custody… I think you need another 6 months to a year of the mother happily getting drunk often and working extra while you gather evidence of her Unsuitability

Mikey

Edited January 12, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[anon345535]

thx for the input mikey, much appreciated.

it's a bit depressing to know i may have to keep this up for a sustained period of time, but if that's what it takes then that's what i'll do. i have pretty much been doing just that for the last 2 1/2 years but without keeping evidence.

my daughters mother and i have never been married, since my daughters birth i have been here semi-permanently on an immigrant O visa. i return to the UK for a few weeks every 15 months to renew it and see friends etc.

i was present when the birth was registered and i am on the birth certificate. i will take a look at it later when she has gone to "work". i did go to the british embassy quite a while ago to register her birth there but i didn't have my proper full birth certificate so i wasn't able to. as i had no intention of taking my daughter from her mother it ended up as something on the to-do list that never got done.

i don't work in thailand, in fact i haven't worked for 6 years. i am an electrician by trade, i can earn reasonable money in the UK but a pittance here in thailand. i would love to go back to work but the thought of leaving my daughter here is one that quite honestly scares me to death. i have been living on savings from property deals i got very lucky on 6 years ago. i still have a reasonable amount left, certainly enough to go back to the uk and provide a stable environment for my daughter even if i can't find a job for the next few years. my intention would be to become a taxi driver for obvious reasons due to possibly being a single father.

i will keep a diary as you suggest and keep on with the amateur camera work.

must go, off to pick my daughter up from school and no doubt pay a visit to mister donut

thx again

[sk1max]

I feel for you and your daughter. My advice would be to take advantage of your wife's selfish behavior and try to buy her off. This may sound a bit much but believe me if you get into the legal system here you will see how quickly she can clean up her act and discredit you. In my opinion and advice I myself have discovered is that whatever she does she will get custody of the child if you go through the Thai legal system. Strike while she is obviously distracted get custody papers drawn up and BE NICE, lie if you have to but think about your daughter and get custody of her and get away from the situation. Good luck.

[lioness]

Of all the Thai couples I know who have split up the daughter always stays with the father and the boys go with the mother. ( I know your not Thai but it shouldn't make any difference ). My husband who is Thai tells me this is the normal situation.

I believe how they look at it is, if daughters go with the mother, there is the danger of the mother having a boyfriend who sexually abuses the daughter.

As far as a boy child, he goes with the mother as if the father has another woman he will quite possible be seen and treated as a dog by the potential stepmother.

Thai thinking, not mine. But maybe there's your opening.

[Sheryl]

TOP priorities:

- get your daughter registered at the UK Embassy and find out what other steps necessary to get her on your passport

- consult a good thai lawyer experienced in custody matters.

I tend to agree that buying off the mom if it is possible is probably better (and in the long run may also be cheaper) than trying to wrest custody from her, among other things she could abscond with the girl if she decides tio make life hard on you, and posession as they say is 9/10ths of the law. Given that you rae not even married to the mother, getting your daughter back should your wife whisk her off somewhere likelyto be very, very hard.

But do not even contemplate a buy-off without expert legal advice on the hows of it.

[MikeyIdea]

i was present when the birth was registered and i am on the birth certificate

You need to be there twice, check bottom left

Beware of that you have no rights what-so-ever currently, the mother can take the child away and refuse you to see her and you can do absolutely nothing except suing her. I have a Thai friend who is going through that right now, no access to his children. Don't need to be farang for that to happen. Getting custody is a 2 step process 1) Legitimation (legally recognised as father) 2) Parental rights (=custody)

Next few years in the UK and not working is a lot of money… Income and continuity of care issue cleared

I don't think it is a good time to bring up the British passport issue now, she may get suspicious. If you can (future holiday or whatever...) then I suggest get one. Note that you will probably not be allowed to bring your child out of Thailand on either Thai or British passport unless the mother is going too OR you also bring the birth certificate. I was almost denied at Suvarnabhumi airport last year, they demanded birth cert too to let my daughter through, not only Thai and Swedish passports.

if you get into the legal system here you will see how quickly she can clean up her act and discredit you

Absolutely agree, but its difficult for a judge to question 50 pieces if video evidence of a mother coming home drunk in the middle of the night and another 50 when the mother didn't come home at all too. Get evidence before she does clean up her act

I myself have discovered is that whatever she does she will get custody of the child if you go through the Thai legal system

That is not what my lawyer said and not what I have heard from others at all. Thai family law seems to be better than most other countries when it comes to caring for and protecting the childs interests. Minimum that c411um will get here is shared custody 50/50, IMO. There is no guarantee that he will get more either but since the opportunity to gather evidence is still there, that should be possible to arrange. Father decides residence and school should not be impossible at all. Think of it, that's a big step, reducing mothers visiting frequency, child likes daddy more, doesn't want to go with mummy… Mummy bored and visits even less. Good for the child too

I'd ask a lawyer specializing in custody cases for what he needs to get sole custody. Most likely, he will say "something to prove that the mother is dangerous". The mother hitting/beating the father up is perfect, c411um, if you get that opportunity, don't miss it, sue her and use that to the fact that she is unstable and dangerous. If the lawyer says – A video of the mother laying in her own vomit, then get that… Life not always nice, Thai's are not always nice. Don't be too nice.

Agree with sk1max about trying to negotiate but it could be a problem that the child is not legitimized yet = has no legal father. I don't know if it is possible for the mother to give up custody in favour of father who has not legitimized the child in Thailand. You cannot legitimize the child at amphur until child is 7 years old, only way before that is juvenile court. Need to ask a lawyer. Don't negotiate until you have evidence though.

I would prepare for court case regardless, then nicely try to negotiate a couple of days before initiating it. Prepare the mothers situation too (I suppose she lives on money that you give her. Make sure she has little spare). If it works, good, if it doesn't the remember that also a court case start with negotiations.

I agree that negotiations outside court can buy custody but don't agree that a court case can't get enough. Sole custody is indeed difficult to get, very difficult if the mother contest and can present herself, but shared custody and father decide residence and school is almost as good as sole custody.

Edited January 12, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

Given that you rae not even married to the mother, getting your daughter back should your wife whisk her off somewhere likelyto be very, very hard.

It is hard for everybody, Thai and farang equally, because Thai family law does not recognise the concept parent abduction. Thai law puts the childs best interest first so good evidence will give the father the upper hand in court.

[Mario2008]

I think that only when the father has joined custody or parental rights with the mother, can the mother give away her parental rights to the father. So the fahter needs to get joined custody with the mother first, after being recognised as the legal father.

For the rest I have nothing to ad to MikaIdea's posts and I can only recomend OP follows his advice.

[anon345535]

ok thx for all the advice thus far....

yes Mikeyldea, you are right i am not on the bottom left of the birth certificate (person notifying birth) so first things first i would assume this would need to be addressed. in fact looking at it, anyone with the same name as me could claim to be her real father... how would i go about this? in the meantime i'll see what a forum search comes up with

thx

edit* ok i found this http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Gain-Parenta...-M-t235443.html which i have interpreted to mean as my daughter is not 7 years old i will need to go to court with her mother to gain joint parental rights?

it's absolutely ridiculous that the hospital (bumrungrad in this case) doesn't explain this to you at the time. or maybe they did but not to the person it actually concerned

Edited January 12, 2010 by c411um

[dudemeister]

So if the father is not named on the childs birth certificate in TWO places, as has been indicated by other poster - will the father still be able to register the childs birth at British Embassy?

I do think the child should be registered, then a British passport can be obtained for the child. Just in case

p.s. good luck c411um

[Mario2008]

Yes, it is still possible to register the child at the embassy and get a UK passport in case their was no legitimization of the child under Thai law. (It might be considered legitimization under UK law, which would not be valid in Thailand as the child was born in Thailand).

[anon345535]

i notified her mother of this when she arrived home at 8.30am this morning. she wasn't impressed, probably not because of the law but that i told her she needs to help me get this sorted out today, or at least get the ball rolling.

personally i think it's a ridiculous law. i could act as my daughters father for 3 years, the mother could marry someone and then they would be my daughters legal father? <deleted> is that all about? i am amazed that even thais are not aware of this law and also the hospitals don't make you aware of this....

[MikeyIdea]

Mikey Edit: I take that away, need to confirm before I post it. Clear though: The child will not get a legal father other than is specified on the BC if the mother marries someone else when child is 3 years old.

Think of it this way: Thai law is in fact much better than most European laws at protecting the child. That's the purpose of the law, it is the way it is to try to protect the child. There is logic to it

Section 1537

In case where the woman had made the new marriage and gave birth to a child within three hundred and ten days as from the day of termination of the marriage, the child shall be presumed to be the legitimate child of the new husband, and no presumption under Section 1536 saying that the child is the legitimate child of the former husband shall apply; provided that there is a judgment pronouncing that the child is not the legitimate child of the new husband.

Section 1536

A child born of a woman during wedlock or within three hundred and ten days after the termination of the marriage is presumed to be the legitimate child of the husband or the man who used to be the husband, as the case may be. The provisions of paragraph one shall apply to a child born of a woman before the marriage has been announced void by the final judgment of the court, or within three hundred and ten days as from the date of such final judgment.

Edited January 13, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[MrWiggle]

My 2 cents....don't be at all nasty to the mother, be nice and civil...use it as a means to an end.

get her on side as much as possible and get her to agree to your custody and whatever it takes, some cash if necessary.

Then get it done all legal like, then when she is yours legally, piss the mother off forever.

good on you for taking care of your daughter, not all do.

[MikeyIdea]

Easy c411um, confronting the mother at 8:30 in the morning when she comes home is not a tactical move. You need to be patient and tactical. And you need to be nice to her for now

i told her she needs to help me get this sorted out today

No, she doesn't, not if she doesn't want to. And there is no law forcing her. You will have to do the preparation work, make it easy for her and maybe she will give you part of what you need without fighting it. I'm sorry I use hard words, really, but here's the deal: your situation is difficult but it has an opportunity too. Take it and gather evidence, please. Miss it and you will get 50/50 if mother contest custody, no more. Miss it and I bet what you get will also cost more.

The mothers first thought was probably that you want to take away the child from her (I assume she's just selfish, not stupid so she knows that she is acting un-motherly). You must make her believe (for now) that you don't. You love your daughter and want to assure that she has all the legal advantages of being a British citizen (free schools, free university, no visas in the EU, inheritance, whatever…) and have a legal father in Thailand. If you can get a British passport without involving the mother, then do it behind her back. Maybe you have to back off and gather evidence for a few months, depends on the mothers response. She could see all this as an attack on everything that she values in her selfish mind

Trust the intention of the law, it is really there to protect the childs best interest in Thailand. If you can provide the law with enough clear evidence to take party, then it will. And give you everything you need? Not necessarily, it will protect the childs best interest, not your interest, keep that in mind.

Contact a lawyer, tell him openly your situation and what your long-term goal is. I recommend telling him that you want to prepare for court but will also need his help with negotiating before initiating the court process. Lot's of video proving the unsuitability of the mother should make her more willing to negotiate in that session… If it fails, remember that "go to court" can mean 2 things in Thailand (of course…). If both parties agree then go to court is no more than a negotiation session with a mediator and jointly signing an agreement that a judge then signs.

Jai yen yen na…

Edited January 13, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

You could tell the mother that you want to avoid problems (like last time…) between the two of you and that you therefore have decided to get a one-year-visa based on taking care of your child. To do that, you first need to get the child legitimized. Present it as an easy process that doesn’t take long. Does she agree?

You need legitimized child, 400,000 bath (Pattaya 500,000) in an account that must not be touched for 2 months (3 months for renewal) to get non-O, easy

[Mario2008]

In a bank account in Thailand, to be precise.

[anon345535]

ok, so i had what i would descirbe as a complete waste of a day pretty much. i didn't go ranting and raving at the mother to help me do this, i simply told her it was important for our daughter that we get this done asap. she went along with it.

first port of call was bumrungrad to find the address of the place i needed to be as for some reason it is far easier to drive miles out of your way than it is to make a simple phone call. i explained to them about the 'legitimisation'. no one had any idea what i was talking about. so i got the address of where the birth was registered and upon arriving there (sukhumvit soi 55) i asked to speak with someone that speaks english, the recptionist or whatever she was disappeared for a bit and said someone would be along within the next 30-60 minutes. after waiting for about 20 minutes they called me up. some dialogue was exchanged in thai between the lady and my 'gf'. i asked the woman "do you speak english?" "no" was the reply. great just what i need. so i explained to my 'gf' i wasn't prepared to have her translate for me as she will simply get the brush off within seconds and then refuse to help as she has been told no. anyway basically nobody knew what i was talking about and all they kept saying was the person who registered the birth cannot be changed. i repeatedly told them i want to be recognise legally by thai law as the father of my daughter

so completely frustrated i went to the british embassy for advice, where 3 people told me that my name is on the BC so i am legal father of my daughter. trying to explain that "someone on the internet" has told you different is about as useful as "a friend of a friend met someone in a bar" in these situations. i did however learn that i can still get a british BC for my daughter. i was always under the impression it was only for the first 12 months of the childs life. they also gave me the address and telephone number of some outfit that can give advice on child custody cases. so it wasn't a complete waste of time.

does anyone have an easier way to get the ball rolling on this "legitimisation"? i could of sat in these offices today talking for hours and still got absolutely nowhere with it

Edited January 13, 2010 by c411um

[MikeyIdea]

The mother is not very friendly and willing to help, is she? The name of the Amphur where birth was registered should be under point 1.9 on the birth certificate if I am not mistaken.

Person who registered birth can maybe, possibly be changed if it is within 15 days or the registration only. It can not be done this long after. Amphur is right.

I suppose the 3 people at the British Embassy confirmed to you that you are the legal father in their view. Different perception of what is important maybe. According to Thai law, you are clearly not legal father yet. Can you get a British BC and most importantly, a British passport without the mother knowing?

There is no easier way to get the ball rolling. The child is 3 years old, you cannot do this at the amphur, it will have to be juvenile court (saan yawachonn lae krabkroa). You need to contact a lawyer. It would not surprise me if the forum sponsor Isaanlawyers are cheaper than the number you got from the British Embassy... There are links everywhere

I know this is tough, but the child is not in an immediate danger at all. Thank the mother for coming with you, say thank you for supporting me in making our daughter have a legally recognised father… Then go to the toilet and throw up if you have to. Then play with your daughter and try to make her laugh. Then laugh yourself. And you will feel much better. The quickest you possibly can be legal father of your child is 2 to 3 months anyway (waiting time to go up in court).

And when you feel better, Gather evidence!

[anon345535]

tbf she wasn't that bad today, well, towards the end of the day.

we did have a little conversation where i asked her what it actually is she wants (i never mentioned money) she said she wanted her freedom. i said that's fair enough, you have your freedom and i'll have our daughter. but she seems to want her as well. when i asked who is gonna look after our daughter while you are having your freedom for 12+ hours a night, she said her family. now tbqh i would rather die than let these lazy people who just use my daughter as a trophy until the novelty wears off take care of her. i told her i was gonna sell the car next week. when i do, how will she get to work if she's staying at her sisters. she said she'd get an "apartment" in bangkok. so i asked how she would get to and from her sisters house to collect our daughter after she had her freedom for the night. she's still thinking of a reply on that one. then out of the blue she asked when am i taking our daughter to england, i said i would take her tomorrow if i could. she said "i'm coming too" i said you are quite welcome to. i would do what i can to help you get set up but me and her are done. there's no way i would want to live with her in the UK. she went a bit quiet on the idea. i told her if she got a proper job i would help her in some way financially but purely because of our daughter and the fact that she's a complete embarrassment to her atm. as much as i despise her she is still the mother of my daughter and i know my daughter loves her as most children do their mothers. i would however take great pleasure in taking her away and giving her a nice big cup of go &lt;deleted&gt;<k yourself.

anyway the diary and video/audio "surveillance" is continuing. didn't get much today apart from our chat about what she wants and her strolling in at 8.30. at least she gave me 30 minutes to get our daughter to school.

the phone number the embassy gave me was just for an advice group, it's an overseas number. i may give them a ring when the time comes but a lawyer would seem to be the next move.

thx for your continued advice, it is much appreciated

Edited January 13, 2010 by c411um

[torrenova]

You need to get a certified translation of the Thai birth certificate. You don't need your partner at all for this. This can be done at many shops and the English wording will tell you who registered the birth. You will then need to get this certified my the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA). There is one (or the only one ?) near Don Muang in Bangkok. I understand that you cannot now pay extra to have it done the same day.

Once you have that, you have everything you need to get your child a UK passport. You need nothing from the mother, not even a signature. You will need the signature on the passport application form but anyone can do this. Passport forms can be printed from the web. Obvious photos etc.

You do not need to pay the 10k or so to have your child registered. You can do if you wish, but it has nothing to do with passports or any rights.

You take (or perhaps you can also post) the passport form, the birth certificates and translations, your passport, photos etc. - check on website for full list). Pay around 4k and the passport is ready for collection (don't know about postal) 10 days / working days later. Easy.

A Thai passport needs both you and the mother to attend the same MFA place (different section) and thus her co-operation.

To get the visa based upon support of a Thai child you will need to go through the legitimisation process. As your child is under 7 or so, then it would be far far easier to get this done with assistance from the child's mother. It might be useful for instance if your Thai will required you be legitimately recognised as the father of your child. It was a simple administrative error and anyway, you need it for your visa. Get my drift ?

Keep a document, preferably sent regularly to an internet based email account (along with scans of all your documents, your child's documents etc.) just in case something should happen or they go missing. Record details of your partner's prostituting herself, the staying out late, not coming home, witness statements to support your statements etc. Record all financial transactions. Pay particular attention to the primary care of the child and who undertakes that (the assumption will be that it is her irrespective of whether she is never home). Basically, you need everything you can get your hands on for potential future use. Get this all in cyberspace and hard copies with your lawyers if you have them or safe somewhere overseas. I cannot stress this strongly enough. PM me if you need more help.

As to Bumrungrad and other hospitals not making sure the father, when available, is not present to personally register the birth is becoming so widespread that I am concerned that they may be doing it deliberately to knowingly deny the unmarried father rights and, more importantly, to give all rights to the Thai mother. In the west, I would sue their &lt;deleted&gt; off.

I can help more on this if you wish but only in private.

[MrWiggle]

Spend a few hundred baht and go get the bc translated for your own benefit.

make sure the english spelling of your name is same as on your passport if your name is in fact on it as stated at the embassy.

[richm7]

I just pulled out my daughter's birth certificate, the certified translation I have and her British birth certificate. Now, I'll admit there is a gap in detail here because I do remember when she was born (at Bumrungrad) a form was filled out and when it came back my name was either spelled wrong or arse backwards, I don't quite remember, but I do recall correcting it. My wife & I were not married at the time.

The certificate shows my daughters name and all the other details you might or might not expect on a western certificate (you would not get birth weight, waning moon or year of the pig!). Nowhere does it show either me or my (now) wife notifying the birth. The notifying person is described as other but there is an indication that there is a document acknowledging the birth, which might well be the one I signed in the hospital. I think there is some confusion here regarding the use of the word "legitimacy". I, although unmarried, was the legitimate father. I guess my daughter was, at the time, illegitimate by western standards, but remember in Thailand using this criteria vast numbers of Thais would be illegitimate because most country Thais (at least) don't get paper married. They are just what we'd call "common law" married. So, get that translation done and get it certified at the Consular Division at Chaeng Wattana. You can then fill out the appropriate forms (there is a package on the British Embassy Bangkok web site), go to the embassy, hand over lots of money (these days over 15k baht) and get her a British birth certificate and a British passport (form C2, on the web site). The embassy already told you they'd do it, so do it.

There is no counter signature required for a British Passport. i.e. you can apply without your GF counter signing. I know this is NOT the case with a US passport or indeed a Thai passport, so you won't be able to get your daughter a Thai passport without her mother's approval. The good news is, neither will she (except, the usual caveat, TIT so money under the table opens many doors).

Now I've never left Thailand alone with my daughter but my wife has, with no problem. You might argue that there's nothing unusual in that, you'd expect a mother, especially a Thai mother, not to be challenged. But even if, as the earlier poster indicated, you do get challenged so long as you have all your documents you should be O.K. I would try to get her a Thai passport though; that will really help. You don't need to tell the GF you have also got her a British passport. Bottom line is get her registered as a Brit and get her a Brit passport.

When people start talking about getting legal I feel sick in my stomach. It is dangerous territory(and expensive - Thai lawyers are not cheap) where you'll be caught up in a tangled web of procedures you don't understand in a language you don't understand. Worse still, TIT so there is no relationship between being legally right and winning; you just cannot bank on it. In fact, I'd say it would be a huge risk and unless you can afford to throw tons of money at it you'll almost certainly lose on the grounds of being FIT (Farang in Thailand). I'd keep as far away from a lawyer as you possibly can; use one only as a last resort, and I mean last.

I reckon you could successfully get your daughter out of the country and to the UK, if that's what you want. That won't stop her mother coming to the UK and trying to get custody there, but I'd rather have a battle in a UK court rather than a Thai court any day. Home advantage is enormous.

Finally, based on what you're telling us about her mother, I think that if you keep cool, don't get into unnecessary conflicts with her and bide your time she will eventually disappear and abandon her daughter anyway. Remember her supposed basis for getting pregnant in the first place; it's not as if she (apparently) ever wanted a child anyway. Wait, she'll go, I can almost guarantee it.

Good luck and be patient. You will win in the end if you keep calm.

[MikeyIdea]

C411um, apologies for interfering in your private life but I don’t think that you should do things like selling the car yet…

You could force the mother to change the situation and she can and will do exactly what she seems to be good at, being selfish and not thinking of you. That could mean that she brings the child to her family or to someone else if she wants, she can change school, she can decide that your daughter shouldn’t go to school at all, anything, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Nothing. Yet…

I would say this to her:

You can have your ‘night’ freedom but I take care of our daughter while you do. This is Not Negotiable. According to Thai law, the father (which you are not yet but the mother doesn’t know the legal small print) has the right to not allow her family to take care of the child. Tell her that the law says that father has the right to take back child from anyone else except the mother (true for a legal father). I have told my daughters mother and her parents that, good for them to know because it limits their options when they discuss (and they do).

“so i asked how she would get to and from her sisters house to collect our daughter after she had her freedom for the night”

You are not enforcing the view that you will not allow that to happen anyway.

Don’t run yet, you are not even ready to walk, bound to hurt if you do it that way.

Priorities, IMO:

1) At least copy birth certificate of daughter and tabien baan etc and keep it safe

2) Get child legitimized. Start the process next week, be NICE (enough) to the mother until this is done. I think saying that you want to get a non-O but immigration requires court to confirm that you are legal father is a “soft and valid reason” that she should agree to. Selling the car could be a “hard reason” for her not to agree, in my opinion

3) Get British BC and British passport – Do it without the mother knowing. Note that you probably won’t be allowed to bring your daughter out without Thai BC anyway (don’t know if original or copy is sufficient)

4) When child is legitimized, go to amphur and request new birth certificate (can only be done at the same amphur that she was born in). They will ask for reason, police report that it is lost etc. which you don’t have. I got a certified copy for my daughter by saying that immigration requires it for my residency permit application (which is true). I keep my daughters passport and the certified copy of BC at the office -> I can take my daughter and leave the country also if the mother does not agree. Let me know if you want to do this and I’ll post what I needed to show at the amphur to get mine

5) I think you should get a non-O visa, less hassle than tourist. I think it would look better if you go to court too

I think you should treat the mother OK for another 3 months or so and let her have her ‘night’ freedom, in exchange you get your child legitimized. Then discuss separation.

Come on, it can’t be that bad, your daughter is 3 years old and I haven’t had sex with my wife and daughters mother for over 3 years… I hope that can add some perspective It’s only 3 months

Play and laugh with your daughter, C4, don’t explode yet

[MikeyIdea]

*** I, although unmarried, was the legitimate father. I guess my daughter was, at the time, illegitimate by western standards, but remember in Thailand using this criteria vast numbers of Thais would be illegitimate because most country Thais (at least) don't get paper married. They are just what we'd call "common law" married.

***

you'll almost certainly lose on the grounds of being FIT (Farang in Thailand).

***

Good luck and be patient. You will win in the end if you keep calm.

The very vast majority of Thai children and adults are illegitimate and do not have a legal father, yes. That is correct. The law is very clear on this, it's just that very few know the rules.

You would most certainly not lose on the grounds of being FIT (Farang in Thailand). All experience I have heard of shows that Thai Juvenile courts are unbiased toward foreigners, and toward fathers. You may lose or not get all you want, but not because you are a farang or a father. Thai juvenile court places the well-being of the child first.

You write something very true - Good luck and be patient. You will win in the end if you keep calm

I totally agree

Edited January 14, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[Mario2008]

I just pulled out my daughter's birth certificate, the certified translation I have and her British birth certificate. Now, I'll admit there is a gap in detail here because I do remember when she was born (at Bumrungrad) a form was filled out and when it came back my name was either spelled wrong or arse backwards, I don't quite remember, but I do recall correcting it. My wife & I were not married at the time.

The certificate shows my daughters name and all the other details you might or might not expect on a western certificate (you would not get birth weight, waning moon or year of the pig!). Nowhere does it show either me or my (now) wife notifying the birth. The notifying person is described as other but there is an indication that there is a document acknowledging the birth, which might well be the one I signed in the hospital. I think there is some confusion here regarding the use of the word "legitimacy".

A legitimate child is a child that has a legal father. Your post indicates that you were the biological and social father, but not the legal father of your child. As far as Thai law was concerned, the mother was the legal parent and had sole custody as being the single parent.

You legitimized the child under Thai law when you married the mother.

The other document is the hospital certificate, that confirms that a child was born. It is not an official birth certificate.

[richm7]

As usual on this forum people are jumping to conclusions and misleading this poor fellow. I see statements like "you are not the legitimate father". Not necessarily so, indeed, probably completely wrong. Bumrungrad arranges the registration of births in the hospital for you. You fill out some of their forms which they then take to the registrar. If you look at my previous post you'll see that my daughter, who was born in Bumrungrad, has a birth certificate where neither me nor her mother are indicated as notifiers; the person who does it on behalf of the hospital is (I guess, I have no idea who this person on my daughter's certificate is). So long as you filled out and signed the hospital documents, you're O.K. I'll bet that's what happened with the OP; why should it be any different for him than me at the same hospital. That's their procedure. Bottom line is it is just plain WRONG to say just because he's not a notifier on the certificate he's not the legal father. With what he has I'll bet he'll have NO trouble getting a British birth certificate and a passport. He should do that anyway, regardless of any other circumstances.

The legal advice is also WRONG and dangerous. If you really think that 50 pictures of the mother passed out in a sea of puke guarantees you success in Thailand, go ahead. You'll get a nasty shock. The way it works here is nothing like the west; I don't give a toss what the law says, it's what the judge says that counts. You are at an immediate huge disadvantage because you are a farang. Anyone trusting the courts here is just asking for it. Yes, I know someone will roll out a story (fact?) where they had great success, but for every success they'll be 100 failures, even when you're in the right. Blimey, even this forum has enough stories of that type to scare anyone off from going to court. As I said before, it is an absolute last resort, desperation if you like. I happen to be in a legal dispute myself, though the nature of the issue is such that it is effectively Thai vs Thai, and a very high up Thai friend told me that although our position is both strong and indisputably right, there is no guarantee of success. It depends on the judge. Blimey, it even works that way in the west sometimes. Ask OJ Simpson.

Get the birth certificate from the embassy, get a passport and wait her out. She will go.

[MikeyIdea]

Richm7, can you read this please:

Section 1547

A child born of the parents who are not married to each other is legitimate by the subsequent marriage of the parents, or by the registration made on application by the father, or by a judgment of the court.

What does it mean?

If you do not know the law and has no experience of how family law in Thailand is practiced then please don’t post and spread false information

Michael

[anon345535]

thx once again for continued advice...

the last couple of days haven't been too bad. she has been coming home directly after work, well if she is actually going to work, she may just be brassing herself off short time and coming back earlier but i have no way of knowing this. she has even got out of bed to take our daughter to school 2 days in a row, i always pick her up though.

selling the car was just something i said to her to see how me throwing a spanner in the works would affect her 'vision' for the future. i have no intention to. it takes me 15 minutes to walk to the main road to get a taxi anywhere.

i'm a bit limited as to what i can do atm. running low on funds and waiting for monies to clear in the UK. the first thing i'll do though is to sort out her british BC and Passport. then this "legitimization". i don't have any intention to run away but it's another option when the sh1t hits the fan.