Thai Govt Aims At Turning Thailand Into Full Welfare State

[PeaceBlondie]

For what it's worth' I'll ask

The recorded teachings of Jesus and the Buddha - socialist or capitalist?

[jontom]

I don't ever see the Thai government setting up a welfare state. As it stands, they have social security and medical. The infrastructure and economic demands are too great to start up any new social benefit programs. At best, you will see some Thaksin-inspired populist money giveaways in the rural provinces, but nothing substantial.

A welfare state in Thailand!!!!!!! Who is going to pay for it? Are the Thais willing to pay 40 per cent income and tax 17.5 per cent VAT. How are they about about quadrupling the price of petrol? When there is a welfare state in Thailand I will go to swampy and fly home with Flying Pigs Airways.

[jontom]

For what it's worth' I'll ask

The recorded teachings of Jesus and the Buddha - socialist or capitalist?

I cant speak for Buddha but I'm sure if Jesus was reborn today he wouldnt come back as a high society Thai politician living in Bangkok it would just be too difficult to ever get back into Heaven!

[Garry9999]

My in-laws would be so pleased, if they could get a welfare payment for laying in their hammocks all day!

[groovyc]

For what it's worth' I'll ask

The recorded teachings of Jesus and the Buddha - socialist or capitalist?

The Buddha's teachings are I believe the most capitalist one could find among

contemporary teachings.

[keestha]

A vast majority of Thai workers, via their SS payments, have access to a pretty robust social security system. From this you get unemployement benefits, child benefits, hospital care etc etc. Of course, it is without the bells and whisltes you get it in the west, but it works. A solid performer.

What percentage of the last salary are these unemployment benefits, and do you need to have worked a certain minimum period of time to get it?

An employee told me that also if you become unemployed after having had a job for a short period, you can receive one third of your last wages through the SS system, but under the condition that you keep yourself available for the labour market. This means that if they can offer you a job you cannot refuse, also it it means relocating from Surat Thani to Chiang Mai.

I am not sure if she was right though, this might be a proposal someone made, that she picked up watching television or reading a magazine.

Edited January 24, 2010 by keestha

[CosmicSurfer]

Please provide an example of any socialist experiment that has worked. Handouts is never the way to go, it is allowing people the freedom to excel that is. Don't exchange a broken system with another. Like fixing a broken leg by starting to bash the other one...

Any and All other Western Capitalistic Countries in the World.... Except the USA which is a Modern example of how an "Empire" implodes...

GW Bushie deluded the people with his "My way or the highway"... "With us or against us" attitude... Well the world has voted... They have all chosen to take care of their citizens and treat them with compassion and try and better their lives.. which after all is the job of a non-militaristic state. The USA is the ONLY western state to chose Greed over Compassion.

The only FAILED system is the American one.. The only ones who haven't realized this yet are those that wrongly identify the responsibility to look after your fellow man (didn't Jesus say this?) and Social welfare with Socialism.. which to their paranoid minds translates into Communism!!!

How Ignorant!

CS

[Abrak]

Good to see the Democrats taking on ideas, principles and policies from Thaksin.

I guess the only difference is the timeline. What Government in this country has been around long enough to have a meaningful policy stance 7 years ahead even if they assume they wont have to be elected to stay in power?

[frogz]

Living in the UK I was used to paying national insurance every month for welfare. The problems come when you try and get any of the money back and that's because of people defrauding the system.

I think a welfare system is good idea for Thailand. Paying a little more tax to save someone's life is only a humane thing to do.

[animatic]

I despise socialism, and it will be the cause of many countries downfall in the future.

I do believe in basic rights for citizen's if the government applies taxes to income and purchases.

The right to receive medical attention in a public hospital at minimal cost.

The right to attend schools and colleges at minimal cost.

The right to pay only a minimum amount of taxes.

plus the usual rights: free to choose religion, have a jury trial if charged with a felony, to marry who ever you like, to defend your family and property from attackers, etc

Good stuff.

I don't despise socialism, it is part of what provides for all the rest of this list.

But all in moderation, from taxes to entitlements. It is man looking out for his fellow man.

And would be akin to Buddha and Jesus' teachings to add to Peaceblondies point.

,

I have lived in USA and they have it quite wrong on the FoxNews side of things,

and in France where the social experiment side when too far and has trouble finding a balance.

But on the whole I paid EXACTLY the same tax rate on BOTH COUNTRIES,

but services and quality of life were MUCH better in France,

and now Unemployment is equal in both...

I wish the truckers and metro strikes could be controlled better in one,

and health care and schools greatly improved in the other.

So yes, a MIX of the two is best for humans as a grouping.

Some can not help themselves and need help,

others will ride all over others for profit and need controlling,

and for most paying a bit for good social services benefiting ALL is not a grevious imposition.

But these are the reasons man has invented governments, there was no choice after

a certain population to area ration was reached and cooperation became a mandatory thing.

Of course man has been arguing about that cooperation ever since: hence POLITICS.

Some places get it a bit better than others sooner. But none ever get it right for long and for good.

Edited January 24, 2010 by animatic

[Gonsalviz]

Norway's welfare state exists because of its oil revenues. Canada's welfare state exists because of its natural resource revenues.

Portugal, Greece, and Spain's welfare states are near collapse because they do not have the revenues to support the programs.

How will Thailand pay for its welfare state. Let's see the revenue generating plan first.

The point is you just have to start somewhere - it's a noble aim, and of corse it will have to be paid for. You sicken me too!

You probably think Obama's healthcare plan is great too. 'Never mind that is flawed, we'll fix it later.'

Trouble is, government doesn't work that way. In fact they hardly work at all.

[khaowong1]

"The government will develop four social welfare systems - public services, social security scheme, social assistance and a system to help communities to have sustainable strength."

Bureuacratic mumbo-jumbo - an adequate pension policy would suffice.

a pension policy for who? how is Somchit, the thai farmer working on his 20 rai of land growing and selling mango's to feed his family going to benefit from a pension policy?

[citizen33]

The people who think welfare states means socialism obviously haven’t done much reading on the subject. Marxist writers like Navarro argue that welfare safety nets were created to support capitalist production, and that a welfare state would be unnecessary in a socialist economy. Even mainstream writers like T. H. Marshall or Polyani say that successful capitalist countries need to take care of their workforces. The interesting question is why the US went down a different path from the European capitalist nations (see: Jill Quadagno, One Nation Uninsured: Why the U.S. has no National Health Insurance. Oxford University Press, 2005). The jury still seems to be out on whether American capitalism works better than European or Japanese capitalism (both with welfare states). I wonder which way China will go, since after promoting the private health care route the Government there now seems set to build up publicly-financed healthcare.

[animatic]

If you have ever lived in a place with a properly run National Healthcare,

you would think Obamas is a good start in putting that into motion.

Not one has been un-flawed on debut, nor are they perfect on first implementation,

but they are STILL better than the alternative.

And I reapeat the above my Tax Rate was EXACTLY the same

under a French health care system as in the USA with NONE....

And everybody can get basic coverage and reasonable costs to

not die from something curable before your time...

just because you are POOR.

So the FoxNews scare stories don't get sold to me, I know the difference.

Edited January 24, 2010 by animatic

[Zpete]

New Zealand manages to fund its welfare out of general taxation.

No oil reserves or anything similar.

Diff is, people pay their taxes.

[khunjamespittman]

pie in the sky - looks for me more like an early start to the general election, than a political will.

it's the parliament, which has to aprove the governmental budget every year, who will shape social policies. Somehow I don't see in the present parliament any lobby for the welfare state and no social movement anywhere in that direction. Political parties are taking care of their own business, trade unions are inefective, their bosses are in the pockets of employers and government officials.

If Abhisit can field a supporter of this plan in every constituency surely he would get a massive majority in a General Election. If the Army stepped in then Thailand becomes Burma Mk2. Could that happen? Tourists and investment capital dry up and Thailand becomes an International outcast. Have the favoured few the power to face down the masses? Are there enough honest (relatively speaking) cops to maintain control of the streets? Will the majority recognise that this scheme offers much more than Thaksin ever did?

Thai politics has suddenly becomes interesting.

Sure there are a few socialist countries left (most are third world). You may be able to convince a few or even many or most that it is a panacea, but how many of these countries are prospering. This model carries too much cost burden to perpetuate itself. The bureaucratic costs soon outstrip any benefits abd a parallel pay for service develops to provide service for the priviliged few and the massessee no advantage of excelling and very little chance of improving their lot. Productivity falls and there is then not enough money available to support service for everyone so quality and avai;ability of service diminishes. Eswnrually the country withers on the vine. Nothing good in these prospects. This has been tried many times and in most cases has failed. Why try someting that has no chance of success?

Regards,

[Gats]

More organized theft (taxes) to create handouts, perfect...another country going down the socialist drain of ruin.

Hahaha and I suppose the American economy ruining the world with broken promises and rampant unrestricted and irresponsible lending is the "model" for preventing ruin?

Australia has come out of the economic crisis on top because of higher taxes and a good welfare system with regulation on the corporate sector. It's an American propoganda lie from the greedy that welfare is the same as a full socialist system. In aus, you can't live well on welfare, but you can eat - less people with nothing to lose means a stronger country with a higher standard of living.

[thaiozy]

Paid for how? Tax evasion is a national sport here.

Well they wont need to worry about that now as the`ve just said there`s a labour shortage about to occur

[Asa]

Welfare is good only when a country knows how to have enough money to feed it. This government only knows how to spend money, even by taking loan, betting on our future. People need to earn more, so they can enjoy the welfare comforts, but never by raising tax nor borrowing.

[featography]

I guess they have been studying the global messiah BHO.

Got that right. Looks like Abisit immulates and wants to be BHO clone

[featography]

I guess they have been studying the global messiah BHO.

The same organization "Acorn" that put Barry in office,( by hook or by crook) has gone international. Look for it in a lot of places with its community organizers.

Again, right on target with that.

[featography]

For what it's worth' I'll ask

The recorded teachings of Jesus and the Buddha - socialist or capitalist?

I cant speak for Buddha but I'm sure if Jesus was reborn today he wouldnt come back as a high society Thai politician living in Bangkok it would just be too difficult to ever get back into Heaven!

Actually, they hid the answer to that question in the Bible. Jesus preached and taught Theocracy;God rules.. give only to Ceasar (any govt you live under as a Christian) what is due Ceasar, and give to God what is due to Him. Hence, He lived, practiced no political idealogies, but commanded his followers only to follow the laws of the land as long as they don't violate God's laws.

Buddha followed the philosophy, follow the laws of the land, seek only peace within and teach others by example and words. Neither man got involved with politics, governments, capitalist, socialist ideas per say by todays definitions

[bellste]

I despise socialism, and it will be the cause of many countries downfall in the future.

I do believe in basic rights for citizen's if the government applies taxes to income and purchases.

The right to receive medical attention in a public hospital at minimal cost.

The right to attend schools and colleges at minimal cost.

The right to pay only a minimum amount of taxes.

plus the usual rights: free to choose religion, have a jury trial if charged with a felony, to marry who ever you like, to defend your family and property from attackers, etc

You can not get all three. The first two cost a lot of money to provide, and than the tax can not be "a minimum amount", it must be quite high.

[hughben]

So will there be Thais able to claim dole when this is eventually brought in?

[uts]

They could start by asking all public servants to give half the graft/bribe money to the cause!

I don't think so!

[bangon04]

So will there be Thais able to claim dole when this is eventually brought in?

Seems unlikely as the government is expecting a labour shortage within 5 years (see the other thread) so who is going to be without work, and who is going to fund it?

Oh yes - tax all the foreigners, especially the Myanmar workers on subsistence wages....

[TAWP]

The people who think welfare states means socialism obviously haven’t done much reading on the subject. Marxist writers like Navarro argue that welfare safety nets were created to support capitalist production, and that a welfare state would be unnecessary in a socialist economy. Even mainstream writers like T. H. Marshall or Polyani say that successful capitalist countries need to take care of their workforces. The interesting question is why the US went down a different path from the European capitalist nations (see: Jill Quadagno, One Nation Uninsured: Why the U.S. has no National Health Insurance. Oxford University Press, 2005). The jury still seems to be out on whether American capitalism works better than European or Japanese capitalism (both with welfare states). I wonder which way China will go, since after promoting the private health care route the Government there now seems set to build up publicly-financed healthcare.

You are mixing oranges and apples, socialism is a political system, capitalism is not. Communism is the polarized opposite of capitalism. The opposite of socialism is libertarianism.

Heavy taxation and Government handouts is socialism, however you want to put it.

[TAWP]

More organized theft (taxes) to create handouts, perfect...another country going down the socialist drain of ruin.

Hahaha and I suppose the American economy ruining the world with broken promises and rampant unrestricted and irresponsible lending is the "model" for preventing ruin?

Australia has come out of the economic crisis on top because of higher taxes and a good welfare system with regulation on the corporate sector. It's an American propoganda lie from the greedy that welfare is the same as a full socialist system. In aus, you can't live well on welfare, but you can eat - less people with nothing to lose means a stronger country with a higher standard of living.

In my country today's youth think they are too 'important' to take employment as 'care taker' for elders and rather remain unemployed, get money hand-outs and stay at home to play World of Warcraft. Payed by the taxes by other people actually working (long article in my native language regarding it was published in the morning press some time back). That is one thing to think about.

I pay taxes here and looking around how people try to skip on it I might be paying more taxes than most neighbors. As I have to make sure everything I do is on the up-and-up due to Visa-extension, work permit etc. But I doubt I will ever see much of it go back to me in any form... that is another thing to think about.

And having person A do a job and then taking some of that persons money and giving it to person B that did none of that work...if this is done by anyone else than the Government it is called theft.

[way2muchcoffee]

And having person A do a job and then taking some of that persons money and giving it to person B that did none of that work...if this is done by anyone else than the Government it is called theft.

Not really. Throughout most of the world it's called capitalism. The corporate execs, land owners, and business owners do this to their employees every single day. Workers will always be exploited, often severely so. This is an inevitable consequence of capitalism because the workers are not the ones making the decisions or holding the purse strings.

Edited January 26, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[TAWP]

And having person A do a job and then taking some of that persons money and giving it to person B that did none of that work...if this is done by anyone else than the Government it is called theft.

Not really. Throughout most of the world it's called capitalism. The corporate execs, land owners, and business owners do this to their employees every single day. Workers will always be exploited, often severely so. This is an inevitable consequence of capitalism because the workers are not the ones making the decisions or holding the purse strings.

Nonsense, Comrade.

Who built the companies? They where not handed down by God and stolen by a few, they where built by some very hardworking men with ideas, in many cases of most. Any remnant of other ways a company got big is often due to NOT having true capitalism.

And if I start a company, work hard, are able to hire more people, expand, set up several stores, grow into a huge chain, why am I not entitled to whatever I get?

You would rather the 'evil' person that started the company didn't? Everybody could be happy in unemployment, since someone thinks it is unfair that people are payed differently for various reasons. Alright...

Anyone hired is a worker. A CEO is a worker too. He works for the stock-owners to protect and expand their investment. If he fails he is fired. Does he or does he not make decisions in the company?