My Thai Wife Dies

[chiangmaibruce]

I believe you can keep the property forever (instead of just 12 months) if you apply for permission at a certain government department. And if your claim is in good faith will usually be approved. At least this is what i've read from the Housing/Property forum.

You need to apply for a Ministerial dispensation ... and I believe there is also a limit on the size of the land (for which you may apply for an exemption). In the course of writing my book "Your Investment Guide to Thailand" (Silkworm Books, 2010) I tried to identify cases where people had actually applied for this special dispensation, and either been granted or refused. I could not identify any such cases ... but I'm still interested to hear about it if anyone knows (first-hand) of real-life situations.

[nam-thip]

Drafting a Thai Will for Properties in Thailand or Abroad

Thai Will and Estate planning is not something we like to think about. What Happens Upon Your Demise? This is certainly not something we would like to think about but it is important to have good estate planning to ensure your loved ones are taken care of should you finally pass away. If there is no Thai will, the intestate’s assets must be distributed in accordance with the classes of relations as stipulated in the CCC Article 1629 which are, in order of priority:

(1) descendants;

(2) parents;

(3) brothers and sisters of full blood;

(4) brothers and sisters of half blood;

(5) grandfathers and grandmothers;

(6) uncles and aunts.

The rest will be equally distributed accordingly. If there are no living relations and no Thai will, the estate will devolve on to the State. As such, we do strongly recommend making a Thai Will to cover all of your properties and assets in Thailand. For those who own land under a company on a freehold basis, upon your demise your property would not simply be passed on to your heirs. Instead, it would be passed on in the form of shares. In the other words, your heir will receive shares of the company as opposed to the actual property itself which can involve complex legal mechanisms. It is therefore imperative that you arrange for the drafting of a Thai will.

For those who acquired a property under a leasehold structure, it is worth mentioning that a lease is a personal right which is not attached to the property per se and essentially terminates when the lessee dies.

Source: http://www.siam-legal.com/legal_services/thailand-will.php

Edited January 26, 2010 by camerata
Added source of quoted text.

[happylarry]

The lack of trust does not lie with marrying a Thai lady or refusing to tell a lie at the land office by not signing the document saying its not my money and has nothing to do with your lady, the lack of trust for me lies in the Thai laws being brick walled against foreigners.

And let’s not forget that it was recently announced that 70% of Thai Lawyer’s don't exactly disagree with corruption and these are the people we turn to to protect our investment!!

You should be able to protect your investment but unfortunately in this country you are given little legal choices other than signing up to some illegal loopholes like setting up a Thai company for one.

I've lived here for 15 years and until the laws of Thailand change i refuse to go down the house purchase road.

Well I personally would rather use my money to give my wife some security in the future when I have inevitably passed on. Better than spending 15 years lining someone else's pocket I would have thought.

Actually I agree with you on the issue of using Thai lawyers and I wouldnt trust any of them, which is why I use Isaan Lawyers based in Korat which is run by a friend of mine (Seb) who is a Canadian Lawyer. He obviously has Thai lawyers on his staff but oversees all and ensures his customers interests are paramount at all times.

I also agree with you about the Thai law of not being able to own land but as I am unable to change it then I go with the flow in order to do the best for my wife, which is the most important thing for me. Although as stated earlier in the case of her early demise then the house is willed to me and I also have a usufruct on the property as well.

HL

[happylarry]

My wife's will leaves our house to me if she unfortunately passes away. This leaves me one year to transfer or sell the ownership of the land to another Thai national, but I also have a usufruct on the land for life just in case of any hiccups. Its a lot of money so you cant be too careful.

HL

shouldnt you have been careful be4 spending a lot of money on something you cant own!

i mean, what good is a house upcountry if no wife to share it with,

Dont understand this post at all?????????????

HL

[TheJoker12]

You don't.

[lioness]

Thai racist laws give you all the reasons you need to rent a house and not buy.

I can't see how you can say Thai racist laws. This is their country, they protect their own, as do many other countries around the world. I think racist is the wrong word entirely.

[dave111223]

Could I personally sign away my rights at the land office as some foreigners do?

Only a fool would do that.

From what i've read on TV it's actually a criminal offense if your wife buys land without you signing away your rights...

[Dakhar]

Could I personally sign away my rights at the land office as some foreigners do?

Only a fool would do that.

From what i've read on TV it's actually a criminal offense if your wife buys land without you signing away your rights...

Well it is a little late to try to arrest her now

Thus far I have never been asked to sign such documents. But I think it may be because the m-i-l co signed for the loan. Regardless, I do take some comfort in the the idea if I bail it is the MIL's problem.

Not my house, not my loan, not my problem...

[bellste]

you depend on goodwill of her/your relatives. Legally you have not much chance.

I agree. He could make a contract, that the wifes family get the house and land, but that he is allowed to live there for free for the rest of his life.

I have built two houses in Thailand for my wife. We are bulding a new one this year.

Two of them are in Saraburi, and one in Korat. I consider that I give it all away. If my wife die before me, her children can have it all. I would never live in any of the places this property is located.

[fletchsmile]

Drafting a Thai Will for Properties in Thailand or Abroad

Thai Will and Estate planning is not something we like to think about. What Happens Upon Your Demise? This is certainly not something we would like to think about but it is important to have good estate planning to ensure your loved ones are taken care of should you finally pass away. If there is no Thai will, the intestate’s assets must be distributed in accordance with the classes of relations as stipulated in the CCC Article 1629 which are, in order of priority:

(1) descendants;

(2) parents;

(3) brothers and sisters of full blood;

(4) brothers and sisters of half blood;

(5) grandfathers and grandmothers;

(6) uncles and aunts.

The rest will be equally distributed accordingly. If there are no living relations and no Thai will, the estate will devolve on to the State. As such, we do strongly recommend making a Thai Will to cover all of your properties and assets in Thailand. For those who own land under a company on a freehold basis, upon your demise your property would not simply be passed on to your heirs. Instead, it would be passed on in the form of shares. In the other words, your heir will receive shares of the company as opposed to the actual property itself which can involve complex legal mechanisms. It is therefore imperative that you arrange for the drafting of a Thai will.

For those who acquired a property under a leasehold structure, it is worth mentioning that a lease is a personal right which is not attached to the property per se and essentially terminates when the lessee dies.

Source: http://www.siam-legal.com/legal_services/thailand-will.php

Good answer Nam-Thip.

Just to extend a couple of small things which have very large repercussions in OP's context, and adding spouse to the list. There are 2 types of heir under a will 1) statutory heirs (eg no will or not specified in will); and 2) heirs under a testament or will. You've laid the order out pretty well. OP also needs to consider that without a will:

1) A foreign spouse would have to share property in the wife's name with 6 classes of heirs you have listed

2) The superior class in the list cuts out the lower classes, with the the exception of parents. So if there are children, then brothers sisters get nothing, as do all classes below. Parents do though.

Examples.

i) An estate is owned as common property worth 1,000,000, (50/50 by foreign guy and Thai wife). Thai wife dies with both parents alive, 2 children, and all the heirs are available as on the list, brothers sisters, aunts etc

The husband retains his half share of 500,000 of the common property as it's jointly owned. The wife's share of 500,000 is divided as follows:

2 children + 2 parents + 1 spouse = 5 people = 100,000 each; So

- spouse ends up with 500,000+ 100,000 = 600,000

- children have 100,000 each

- outlaws get 200,000 (100,000 each to Thai MIL and Thai FIL)

Think that clearly illustrates everyones problems

ii) If the property was 100% owned by wife. Each party would get 200,000 each in the above example. Even more reason for a will!

Source being: "Thai Law for Foreigners" by Sathitya Lengthaisong - very well respected Thai lawyer, Chula, Thammasat, overseas etc.

Also:

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/inheritance_law.html

Plus, Tilleke and Gibbins has a similar article on their website

Edit: BTW When I wrote "share" above I mean "divide up" Physically living with all the inlaws would be a complete nightmare

Edited January 26, 2010 by fletchsmile

[happylarry]

Drafting a Thai Will for Properties in Thailand or Abroad

Thai Will and Estate planning is not something we like to think about. What Happens Upon Your Demise? This is certainly not something we would like to think about but it is important to have good estate planning to ensure your loved ones are taken care of should you finally pass away. If there is no Thai will, the intestate's assets must be distributed in accordance with the classes of relations as stipulated in the CCC Article 1629 which are, in order of priority:

(1) descendants;

(2) parents;

(3) brothers and sisters of full blood;

(4) brothers and sisters of half blood;

(5) grandfathers and grandmothers;

(6) uncles and aunts.

The rest will be equally distributed accordingly. If there are no living relations and no Thai will, the estate will devolve on to the State. As such, we do strongly recommend making a Thai Will to cover all of your properties and assets in Thailand. For those who own land under a company on a freehold basis, upon your demise your property would not simply be passed on to your heirs. Instead, it would be passed on in the form of shares. In the other words, your heir will receive shares of the company as opposed to the actual property itself which can involve complex legal mechanisms. It is therefore imperative that you arrange for the drafting of a Thai will.

For those who acquired a property under a leasehold structure, it is worth mentioning that a lease is a personal right which is not attached to the property per se and essentially terminates when the lessee dies.

Source: http://www.siam-legal.com/legal_services/thailand-will.php

Good answer Nam-Thip.

Just to extend a couple of small things which have very large repercussions in OP's context, and adding spouse to the list. There are 2 types of heir under a will 1) statutory heirs (eg no will or not specified in will); and 2) heirs under a testament or will. You've laid the order out pretty well. OP also needs to consider that without a will:

1) A foreign spouse would have to share property in the wife's name with 6 classes of heirs you have listed

2) The superior class in the list cuts out the lower classes, with the the exception of parents. So if there are children, then brothers sisters get nothing, as do all classes below. Parents do though.

Examples.

i) An estate is owned as common property worth 1,000,000, (50/50 by foreign guy and Thai wife). Thai wife dies with both parents alive, 2 children, and all the heirs are available as on the list, brothers sisters, aunts etc

The husband retains his half share of 500,000 of the common property as it's jointly owned. The wife's share of 500,000 is divided as follows:

2 children + 2 parents + 1 spouse = 5 people = 100,000 each; So

- spouse ends up with 500,000+ 100,000 = 600,000

- children have 100,000 each

- outlaws get 200,000 (100,000 each to Thai MIL and Thai FIL)

Think that clearly illustrates everyones problems

ii) If the property was 100% owned by wife. Each party would get 200,000 each in the above example. Even more reason for a will!

Source being: "Thai Law for Foreigners" by Sathitya Lengthaisong - very well respected Thai lawyer, Chula, Thammasat, overseas etc.

Also:

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/inheritance_law.html

Plus, Tilleke and Gibbins has a similar article on their website

Edit: BTW When I wrote "share" above I mean "divide up" Physically living with all the inlaws would be a complete nightmare

This whole thread has been about ferangs not being legally allowed to own the property and yet here you are stating that if a ferang owns half then he retains half. There is no common property as you call it because the ferang cannot own land in Thailand. He cannot be on the deeds of the land except in the case of a usufruct. This is why the ferang has to go to the land office at the time of transfer and sign the form that says he claims no rights whatsoever on the said land. Jeez why dont people read the thread.

HL

[happylarry]

fletchsmile I think I owe you an apology....I have just sat back and relooked at your post and mine and I have now come up with something else.

I wasnt thinking in the terms of a will when I replied. Of course if the will has been properly drawn up and witnessed then the ferang doesnt need to be on the deeds because they will follow the wills wishes and she can leave him the whole 100% but he can only have it for one year in order to sell or pass on.

sorry for my comment.

HL

[fletchsmile]

This whole thread has been about ferangs not being legally allowed to own the property and yet here you are stating that if a ferang owns half then he retains half. There is no common property as you call it because the ferang cannot own land in Thailand. He cannot be on the deeds of the land except in the case of a usufruct. This is why the ferang has to go to the land office at the time of transfer and sign the form that says he claims no rights whatsoever on the said land. Jeez why dont people read the thread.

HL

Perhaps an extension may also be: "Jeez why don't people read a post and then think before replying".

I gave 2 examples: One joint owned assets. One single name assets. I'd have thought this would have been useful to someone with cognitive reasoning. Seems I overestimated the people reading, particularly yourself

Let's be clear. Foreigners generally cannot own land (few exceptions though). They can however own the buildings or property on it.

Is it too much to ask for someone such as yourself to consider a scenario where the wife owns the land 100% and they jointly own the house on it!

I'm assuming also you don't need me to answer what happens if the husband owns all assets 100%, and the wife dies...

Not sure whether your problem is reading or thinking...

[bina]

fletch. a bit harsh since happylarry posted an apology straight after he re read the post...

anyhow, moving to real estate forum for more precise legal advice...

bina

[siggie2]

Been with my gf for 5 years and we have 2 wills and i have 1 in uk.Also i got a life term partnership agreement whereby i get the assets if she dies first and not her mom.I have 1 years to sell the assets then i will be ok.

[fletchsmile]

fletchsmile I think I owe you an apology....I have just sat back and relooked at your post and mine and I have now come up with something else.

I wasnt thinking in the terms of a will when I replied. Of course if the will has been properly drawn up and witnessed then the ferang doesnt need to be on the deeds because they will follow the wills wishes and she can leave him the whole 100% but he can only have it for one year in order to sell or pass on.

sorry for my comment.

HL

No worries HL. Apology more than accepted - I took it as banter anyway which is pretty much what my return was... A will is definitely the way to go in my view, and I think the two examples highlight what happens if you don't. As you say, then he's entitled to the "proceeds" with a year to sort out.

Kids would also solve part of the problem! But would still need a will for the full 100% to be effective.

fletch. a bit harsh since happylarry posted an apology straight after he re read the post...

anyhow, moving to real estate forum for more precise legal advice...

bina

True, but I hadn't read that as I was in the middle of replying

Perhaps a timely reminder though...

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger"

[bangon04]

A good and relevant question for many.

I'm sorry I can't add advice, but I hope someone will bring along some advices.

Ya I'm watching this one also, my guess, house can be sold by you, her family gets it, you must re-marry a Thai woman then re-register it with new Chanot deed.

So start training the wife's sister to take over....

[bangon04]

As far as I understand, if your Thai wife dies then the land she owns goes to you and you have 12 months to either sell it or transfer it in to the name of a Thai citizen, I may be wrong but I don't think so.

Brigante7.

This is my understanding also. If you cannot sell or dont make any efforts to sell then the Land Department will force-sell it and you will be paid out less any taxes and fees and a 5% commission to the land department. That is, of course, if the land and property were acquired during your marriage.

Best way to make things fail-safe is to set up a will in which you are entitled to your share. You will still have to sell though unless you can arrange an usufruct with other (Thai) descendants (also to be specified within your wife's will).

I also share Brigante's understanding that upon the death of the thai spouse temporary ownership will pass to the foreign spouse for him/her to effect a transfer of ownership to a thai within one year...however not sure if this applies if there is a will and the foreign spouse is not mentioned...

it is also my understanding that the holder of an usufruct is entitled to control of the land for life regardless of death of the owner(i.e., wife), transfer of ownership, etc...good to have as a legal minimum to ensure tenure in the house/property if something unfortunate happens...

Surely if you are obliged to sell the land to a Thai, then there is very little incentive for the buyer to give you a fair market price for the property.

[stgrhe]

A will and a usufruct for life would do the job as mentioned by others. We had our wills drawn up by Issan Lawyers (Sebastien - good lawyer he is) and then the usufruct was registered in my favour on the title deed.

[ShreddedWheat]

A will and a usufruct for life would do the job as mentioned by others. We had our wills drawn up by Issan Lawyers (Sebastien - good lawyer he is) and then the usufruct was registered in my favour on the title deed.

Yes, I think that is the route my wife and I will have to follow also. Her only living Thai relative is her daughter, my step daughter. But daughter is "married" now (well, living with a much older Thai man as his mia noi). She is only 17 years old. My wife was'nt happy when this relationship started and is still unahppy. The Thai and his family may have designs on our house although we have no dealings with them and my wife and her daughter now have little to do with each other.

The grandparents of my wife's daughter also have designs on the house. They are already telling people in the village they will get it when my wife dies and they wish she would hurry up and die. When we fly to the Uk they say they hope the plane will crash! They are the parents of my wife's Thai ex. She never formally married him and he is now living in Bangkok with a new wife. We don't see him as having any interest or claim on the house. He's been separated from my wife for 17 years now - left her when the daughter was born - nice man. She hates this family as much as they hate her.

Incidentally, my wife is telling people in the village that when she dies this family will get nothing. That they are not her family and they have no right to anything.

I think I could be in for a fight if my wife pre-deceases me. We would like to make it possible for me to continue to live at our house until I die, but also for my step daughter to get the house (or use of it) once she is older (say 25 or 30 years) and has children of her own. At the moment we feel she is too young and easily manipulated by the two different Thai families, but we hope that once she is older and has children of her own she will be more sensible. We also think that if my wife were to die now and the house went to the daughter, then one or other of the families would have her down to the bank straightaway to sign a mortgage deal, so they could then p*ss the mortgage money away.

So that's why I think the will and usufruct might be the right route for me and my wife also. We would both be Ok with the idea of me holding the land and house on trust for my daughter if that option is also open to us.

[stgrhe]

ShreddedWheat, given your special circumstances I suggest you also arrange for a 30 years lease to back up your situation or a second name on the usufruct.   

[caf]

Drafting a Thai Will for Properties in Thailand or Abroad

Thai Will and Estate planning is not something we like to think about. What Happens Upon Your Demise? This is certainly not something we would like to think about but it is important to have good estate planning to ensure your loved ones are taken care of should you finally pass away. If there is no Thai will, the intestate's assets must be distributed in accordance with the classes of relations as stipulated in the CCC Article 1629 which are, in order of priority:

(1) descendants;

(2) parents;

(3) brothers and sisters of full blood;

(4) brothers and sisters of half blood;

(5) grandfathers and grandmothers;

(6) uncles and aunts.

The rest will be equally distributed accordingly. If there are no living relations and no Thai will, the estate will devolve on to the State. As such, we do strongly recommend making a Thai Will to cover all of your properties and assets in Thailand. For those who own land under a company on a freehold basis, upon your demise your property would not simply be passed on to your heirs. Instead, it would be passed on in the form of shares. In the other words, your heir will receive shares of the company as opposed to the actual property itself which can involve complex legal mechanisms. It is therefore imperative that you arrange for the drafting of a Thai will.

For those who acquired a property under a leasehold structure, it is worth mentioning that a lease is a personal right which is not attached to the property per se and essentially terminates when the lessee dies.

Source: http://www.siam-legal.com/legal_services/thailand-will.php

Good answer Nam-Thip.

Just to extend a couple of small things which have very large repercussions in OP's context, and adding spouse to the list. There are 2 types of heir under a will 1) statutory heirs (eg no will or not specified in will); and 2) heirs under a testament or will. You've laid the order out pretty well. OP also needs to consider that without a will:

1) A foreign spouse would have to share property in the wife's name with 6 classes of heirs you have listed

2) The superior class in the list cuts out the lower classes, with the the exception of parents. So if there are children, then brothers sisters get nothing, as do all classes below. Parents do though.

Examples.

i) An estate is owned as common property worth 1,000,000, (50/50 by foreign guy and Thai wife). Thai wife dies with both parents alive, 2 children, and all the heirs are available as on the list, brothers sisters, aunts etc

The husband retains his half share of 500,000 of the common property as it's jointly owned. The wife's share of 500,000 is divided as follows:

2 children + 2 parents + 1 spouse = 5 people = 100,000 each; So

- spouse ends up with 500,000+ 100,000 = 600,000

- children have 100,000 each

- outlaws get 200,000 (100,000 each to Thai MIL and Thai FIL)

Think that clearly illustrates everyones problems

ii) If the property was 100% owned by wife. Each party would get 200,000 each in the above example. Even more reason for a will!

Source being: "Thai Law for Foreigners" by Sathitya Lengthaisong - very well respected Thai lawyer, Chula, Thammasat, overseas etc.

Also:

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/inheritance_law.html

Plus, Tilleke and Gibbins has a similar article on their website

Edit: BTW When I wrote "share" above I mean "divide up" Physically living with all the inlaws would be a complete nightmare

This whole thread has been about ferangs not being legally allowed to own the property and yet here you are stating that if a ferang owns half then he retains half. There is no common property as you call it because the ferang cannot own land in Thailand. He cannot be on the deeds of the land except in the case of a usufruct. This is why the ferang has to go to the land office at the time of transfer and sign the form that says he claims no rights whatsoever on the said land. Jeez why dont people read the thread.

HL

The farang can not own land but if married, all assets owned by wife and farang bought after marriage is split 50 50 on divorce. On death different rules apply as stated above. Houses can be owned by farangs so a wife's death will not affect that. A superficie can contain a clause that at the land owner's request the house owner must sell at market value.

All are nightmare scenarios in practice but in theory the farang has some protection

caf

[old wanderer]

One path that has not been discussed....a Farang holding a mortgage against the property.

In our case (married to a Thai with a Farang last name), I have a Usefret for each Chanote we own, (we have a lot of them) but then we went a step further and I "loaned" her 5,000,000b and took a mortgage back on each of the properties.

We both know her relatives have already had discussion on how to divide up all our property, and as far as they are concerned I do not count..(Interesting as to how greedy some can be). It took more than 10 years for my wife to come to this conclusion, given the natural family attachments they have.

Even though we are getting up in years, (I don't plan on dying for another 30 years however, just to irritate the family) we may just have to have a child..(no my 1st choice in life), or just will the whole shooting match to the church we belong to.