Automatic Tranmissions In Traffic

[CMX]

I think that we all accept that driving a two-wheeled motorbike in Thailand is far more dangerous than driving in a car, but most would argue (I’m one) that it’s the best way to go efficiently. Plus it’s fun. Still, I’ve seen more bikes down on the road here in four months than in all my biking history – which stretches back to ’63 and is varied in bikes, nations, and conditions. (I exclude competitions and off-road.)

I dislike automatics on principle, because they require “wasted energy” and they remove tactility and one’s sense of control, in most situations realistically. But autoxmissions are undoubtedly BETTER for some things, including heavy traffic.

I’m concerned about entries on various threads here urging beginners of any sort – those who’ve driven manual drive cars once some time ago, those who are new to clutchless transmissions, those who have driven only where one is NOT permitted to bypass cars except in a dedicated full lane (meaning virtually all of the US), and those who are new to Asian traffic - to use here a manual transmission in cities.

I have read the entries and know that this is a contested notion. But I hold that the main purpose of riding a bike is to save lives, that the secondary one is to get there, and the third is to arrive in a timely fashion and a lesser one is the fun of the chase. Scattered body parts are horrifying.

And anyway, I cannot agree that even the most practiced user of a clutchless or clutched manual transmission can at once, instantly, shift gears in less than a second. Even the best anticipation and the finest reflexes CANNOT replace a machine for shifting gears automatically with today’s transmissions. I have used our vaunted “automated reflexes” – call them mindless, in shifting gears, refined from saving my behind a number of times, but I cannot beat a machine for shifting. Again, usually brakes are more important, and experience and reflexes are all but essential (and I have strong thoughts about tyres), but it is not macho of me to be squashed like a bug because I’m in the wrong gear when things happen without sufficient warning to shift. That’s the point – the best of alert anticipation cannot always work. Moreover, other lives are at risk if I can’t shift quickly enough. Then there are these new drivers; send them off to autos, at least at first, sez I.

[LivinLOS]

But I hold that the main purpose of riding a bike is to save lives, that the secondary one is to get there

If the main purpuse is to not be exposed to danger over the needs of transport then not using one at all is the answer.. Crazy statement IMO.

And anyway, I cannot agree that even the most practiced user of a clutchless or clutched manual transmission can at once, instantly, shift gears in less than a second. Even the best anticipation and the finest reflexes CANNOT replace a machine for shifting gears automatically with today’s transmissions. I have used our vaunted “automated reflexes” – call them mindless, in shifting gears, refined from saving my behind a number of times, but I cannot beat a machine for shifting. Again, usually brakes are more important, and experience and reflexes are all but essential (and I have strong thoughts about tyres), but it is not macho of me to be squashed like a bug because I’m in the wrong gear when things happen without sufficient warning to shift. That’s the point – the best of alert anticipation cannot always work.

1) shifting gear within 1 full second is not a difficult task..

2) I am trying to imagine a situation where you need to change gear instantly that an auto would save you in ?? If its braking the auto cant engine brake anyway.. If its to go faster you should be in the gear to accelerate anyway.

I am struggling to understand your point here.

[withnail]

I've never felt as in danger on my cbr as when I was driving an auto with a bus racing up my a@#$ and had no acceleration. Agree with LivingLOS I can't really think of many situations where an auto transmission would help. Though I agree with what you say about beginners, I'd never advise that they drive anything here.

The main thing that makes me safer on a manual is the armoured jacket, gloves and full face helmet I wear. What percentage of auto drivers are driving without any of these to better suit the stye of their bike?

[dave_boo]

I'd just like to point out that you've been riding longer than I've been alive..so there should be some deference in my post to your accumalated knowledge....however, didn't you start off on a manual bike and are still alive to tell us about it?

FWIW, I started off on a Motobecane (legal to drive in Ohio at the tender age of 14...no more trying to find rides) and thus my first 'motorbike' was an automatic...but I think everyone should start off on a manual whether it's a four wheel or two wheel vehicle; it teaches the value of paying attention to what's going on rather than falling into a stupor of toodling along!

[MrFrank]

I completely disagree. Automatic gearboxes are a convenience aimed primarily at saving effort and they do this by way of a compromise to flexibility and precision. With an auto you spend a significant amount of time in the wrong gear for the conditions (often when it's least desirable, such as entering a corner or trying to power-away) whereas, if riding or driving properly, you will be in the right gear most of the time.

It's possible that the actual shifting action may be very quick on some auto boxes, but it still only happens after the gearbox has "thought about it" for a while. Especially on lower powered vehicles, this manifests itself as "bogging down" when you hit the gas hard and don't go anywhere for a while.

If you ride a lot, especially through (note: not "in") traffic your gear changing should be fast and instinctive and much safer than relying on an auto box.

[proximity]

I completely disagree. Automatic gearboxes are a convenience aimed primarily at saving effort and they do this by way of a compromise to flexibility and precision. With an auto you spend a significant amount of time in the wrong gear for the conditions

Are you sure that you are considering that these small bikes all use CVTs? You can't hardly be in the wrong gear and should never "bog down" as the engine is almost always operating right on the top of the power curve. Even in small cars modern five and six speed electronically controlled autoboxes don't suffer these issues anymore.

[LivinLOS]

I completely disagree. Automatic gearboxes are a convenience aimed primarily at saving effort and they do this by way of a compromise to flexibility and precision. With an auto you spend a significant amount of time in the wrong gear for the conditions

Are you sure that you are considering that these small bikes all use CVTs? You can't hardly be in the wrong gear and should never "bog down" as the engine is almost always operating right on the top of the power curve. Even in small cars modern five and six speed electronically controlled autoboxes don't suffer these issues anymore.

Yes but they dont hold in the right rev range when they hit steep hill.. They sure bog to low revs then..

For me what I really hate is the no engine braking and hard on/off power delivery when power is applied from the free wheel situation.. Corner (no power, not engine braking or feel) apply some gas and its nothing until it engages and then its all there, often mid bend.. Just feels kooky..

Whats annoying is all the developments in small bikes are focused entirely on the auto segment.. I would love a Yammie spark type 135 or 150 type bike, in a larger body with good under seat storage like a 135 elegance or larger. As it is its auto or sporty with no good work horse manual with a strong engine.

[PeaceBlondie]

For beginners, automatics are easier. Hey - my first barely-powered 2-wheeler was a one-speed clutchless Cushman. Which I don't count as a motorcycle.

IMHO, auto clutch and transmissions give the rider the temptation to not pay attention to riding. Hold your handbag, use your mobile...

[CMX]

PB

I admit that I had not thought about the advantage of requiring a clutch in the cell-phone hand. Might be a great advance in safety. But I am not certain that the inexperienced types will use the things as frequently as do Thais. Scary. Forums are great for new ideas and refining old ones, given an open mind.

I have already stipulated that I prefer manual with clutch (while holding that automatic transmission is safer in Thai city traffic). It's true as well, as I tried to suggest, that the automatic transmission cannot replace many other factors that go to safe driving in the city - or reduce the circumstances of many dangers themselves.

What I hoped to propose was that A) no matter how much I regard my own ability to shift gears with a manual transmission, a modern automatic transmission on light bikes will deliver in city traffic a faster response and that with regard to those who are new, this way and that, it is best to encourage autoxmissions for their earliest driving here.

Experienced drivers may forget struggling with shifting in tough situations when one is new to the experience.

The issue of wearing safe clothing is discussed well elsewhere. But I admit that I do not always operate myself on the wisest plan. Looking at a CRB today for my use, even though it violates my rational self, which would demand a Hayate for its chair, inner storage, auto, 91 green ethanol, dryer feet, and tubeless (if ordered), and necessarily forgetting speed, power, and glory.

[Zzinged]

Let's not forget that part of operating your motorcycle properly includes being in the right rev range for the conditions. That means you should never really need to shift down instantly to 'get out of trouble'. Ideally you should be in the appropriate gear for the situation you're in. If you're riding around heavy vehicles, for example, you shouldn't be in top gear and at the veeeeery bottom of your powerband.

The only good point I can see about using an auto while filtering traffic is when you have to stop often. At least an auto would save your left hand from going into cramps, in a situation like that

[LivinLOS]

What I hoped to propose was that A) no matter how much I regard my own ability to shift gears with a manual transmission, a modern automatic transmission on light bikes will deliver in city traffic a faster response and that with regard to those who are new, this way and that, it is best to encourage autoxmissions for their earliest driving here.

But what you have failed to explain is WHY a faster throttle response (which I dont agree with BTW) going to result in a safer driver.. When is faster throttle response going to save an emergency situation, hence make you safer ?? Its not like the auto is going to instantly crack on and provide a burst of power you get out of trouble, they barely move full bore. Even a slight delay in downshifting puts better power down.

If your accelerating you should be in the right gear to power the machine ANYWAY.. If your decelerating you should be engine braking.. In both the manual is in the right gear to operate instantly, the auto is only in the right gear to accelerate, leaving all deceleration to the brakes so one of the 2 options.

[submaniac]

Well the arguments for an auto do not make much sense for an experienced rider. If you have been riding a while, you do not even think about the gears anymore. Another part of your brain takes over and makes it second nature. If you do not know how to ride...well, first off don't learn in Thailand. Secondly, if you are a new rider, the autos make a little more sense. But not much to me. If you are going to ride a motorcycle, you really should learn how to ride a manual.

[PeaceBlondie]

These under-235 cc bikes don't have a stiff clutch. Unless you're very limp-wristed.

[nikster]

It's much easier to learn to bike on an Auto. Fully auto is even better. Because it frees you to pay attention to other things. Just one hazard less. Once you don't have any trouble weaving through traffic, learning to use the clutch is easy, and also much safer.

When you start to bike you are unfamiliar with the roads, and unfamiliar with the Thai driving style - you need all the help you can get. Auto is such a help.

Can't see why or how or where a manual would ever be safer. More fun and faster for sure though.

My 2ct

[Zzinged]

It's much easier to learn to bike on an Auto. Fully auto is even better. Because it frees you to pay attention to other things. Just one hazard less. Once you don't have any trouble weaving through traffic, learning to use the clutch is easy, and also much safer.

My 2ct

Why in the world would you be learning how to operate a bike on open roads filled with traffic? You don't learn how to use a clutch while weaving through traffic. You learn basic motorcycle skills away from traffic!

Are people arguing for autos assuming one learns how to ride a bike while dodging traffic?

When I bought my bike (manual) I didn't know how to ride (properly) and I had my bike sent to the nearest race track. There I learnt from an instructor how to properly operate my bike while on a closed road. Only after I was proficient and confident (about 6 hours of formal training) did I ride my bike home.

As I mentioned before, the only real benefits of an automatic transmission on a motorbike is ease of use and convenience.

An automatic transmission does not mean that it is suitable for people who do not know how to ride in the first place.

[LivinLOS]

Can't see why or how or where a manual would ever be safer. More fun and faster for sure though.

My 2ct

Any situation involving engine braking and being in full control of the machine..

Accelerating out of a corner where power is smoothly applied as per throttle and not some auto on off lurch..

[gmac]

Can't see why or how or where a manual would ever be safer. More fun and faster for sure though.

My 2ct

Any situation involving engine braking and being in full control of the machine..

Accelerating out of a corner where power is smoothly applied as per throttle and not some auto on off lurch..

Think you went a bit too far with that answer, I would have stopped after "Any situation"!! Learnt my riding in Thailand on a manual, have tried automatics on a few occasions but just don't feel in control. Drive an automatic car now after 30+ years of manuals and hate that wallowing feeling you get through a fast corner as the auto box takes way too long to downshift. On an auto bike that would be downright dangerous.

[BSJ]

Hi CMX, most scooters are not automatic in the same sense as a car is automatic. Usually they are Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT)...which is a glorified belt drive of sorts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_...le_transmission

Another variant of automatic is Honda's Dn-01, but it's not a belt drive, it's some sort of swash plate arrangement I find difficult to understand!

What excites me is a paddle shifter a la Ferrari and Porsche. Well that technology for bikes is almost upon us, and it looks like I won't have 2 wait much longer as Honda have cum up with a Dual Clutch Transmission they intent to fit to large capacity bikes. So that will give us a push button gear changer that is lightning fast and programmable for street or track riding. And no clutch! Lets hope Kwaka and Suzi are keeping pace! Roll on 2011.

[Tanaka]

Can't see why or how or where a manual would ever be safer. More fun and faster for sure though.

My 2ct

Any situation involving engine braking and being in full control of the machine..

Accelerating out of a corner where power is smoothly applied as per throttle and not some auto on off lurch..

Think you went a bit too far with that answer, I would have stopped after "Any situation"!! Learnt my riding in Thailand on a manual, have tried automatics on a few occasions but just don't feel in control. Drive an automatic car now after 30+ years of manuals and hate that wallowing feeling you get through a fast corner as the auto box takes way too long to downshift. On an auto bike that would be downright dangerous.

I do not understand how you negotiate a fast corner if your auto trans is downshifting. Do you do a kick-down in the middle of the curve to make a downshift or? You do not downshift a manual in the middle of a curve, do you?

[Gonsalviz]

I completely disagree. Automatic gearboxes are a convenience aimed primarily at saving effort and they do this by way of a compromise to flexibility and precision. With an auto you spend a significant amount of time in the wrong gear for the conditions (often when it's least desirable, such as entering a corner or trying to power-away) whereas, if riding or driving properly, you will be in the right gear most of the time.

It's possible that the actual shifting action may be very quick on some auto boxes, but it still only happens after the gearbox has "thought about it" for a while. Especially on lower powered vehicles, this manifests itself as "bogging down" when you hit the gas hard and don't go anywhere for a while.

If you ride a lot, especially through (note: not "in") traffic your gear changing should be fast and instinctive and much safer than relying on an auto box.

Seconded.

[CMX]

I repeat that I personally am concerned with heavy traffic and a light bike. Some replies speak of POWER responses in curves requiring lots of torque, which does not meet the case. Others assume a clutch (far superior to clutch-free for down shifting more than one gear) and imagine their quickness to be as keen as that of a fighter jet pilot before age requirements make him quit. Still others imagine themselves to be in the correct gear, which is not an emergency situation (no anticipation can meet every situation in Thai traffic). I am not a novice biker, but admit to no experience with racing or off-road, which undoubtedly would have sharpened my everything. Have, however, challenged Continental European (city) conditions for years.

At issue for me is a sudden, not to say instant, emergency, where one must brake and shift simultaneously to achieve the best result. Saying that one must be in the best gear at that time misses the challenge I pose for myself. An additional factor is the immediacy of positive responses by bikes that have fuel-injection and newly designed auto-transmissions, the response times of which have to be experienced - surprising quick from any speed at lower ones. I do not suppose magic in their coupling, given that I'm thinking only in the 125 cc range, but quicker they are.

[jackcorbett]

I repeat that I personally am concerned with heavy traffic and a light bike. Some replies speak of POWER responses in curves requiring lots of torque, which does not meet the case. Others assume a clutch (far superior to clutch-free for down shifting more than one gear) and imagine their quickness to be as keen as that of a fighter jet pilot before age requirements make him quit. Still others imagine themselves to be in the correct gear, which is not an emergency situation (no anticipation can meet every situation in Thai traffic). I am not a novice biker, but admit to no experience with racing or off-road, which undoubtedly would have sharpened my everything. Have, however, challenged Continental European (city) conditions for years.

At issue for me is a sudden, not to say instant, emergency, where one must brake and shift simultaneously to achieve the best result. Saying that one must be in the best gear at that time misses the challenge I pose for myself. An additional factor is the immediacy of positive responses by bikes that have fuel-injection and newly designed auto-transmissions, the response times of which have to be experienced - surprising quick from any speed at lower ones. I do not suppose magic in their coupling, given that I'm thinking only in the 125 cc range, but quicker they are.

You are 100 percent right. With a manual transmission bike you typically have very poor power unless you downshift and get the revs up and that takes time. You do get great gas mileage however. That's because most of the time you are driving well down in the power band. With an automatic you are typically driving at much higher rpms. That does not insure the best fuel economy but the power of the bike is right there ready to be tapped immediately. You don't have to downshift, then wait for the revs to build. In Pattaya city driving 30 miles an hour seems pretty fast and 40 miles an hour feels too dam_n fast. At such speeds alot of awful things can happen to you as in RIGHT NOW. Death awaits you from the left, from the right, from ahead of you and from behind you. There is no police enforcement of the rules of the road here. In the U.S. driving is regarded as a privilege not a RIGHT. Here it's regarded as a RIGHT. In the US. kids have to pass motorcycle safety classes to earn the right to drive and then they have to keep taking tests throughout their lives to maintain their driving privileges. In Pattaya most people don't even have a driving license. There are lots of ten year old kids driving around. There are lots of motorcycle taxi drivers weaving around with their surly ass I can do what I like attitudes. People routinely drive the wrong way and drive through red lights because they have no respect for the law or even for human life. The rules are unenforced. The politicians here do not give one iota for the common good of those who live here or visit so mayheim on the streets is tolerated. Pattaya is a death trap for motorcylists so anything that gives one an edge at avoiding its jaws should be employed simply because it's a matter of life and death. An automatic gives one an advantage at avoiding getting killed or maimed because of some scumbag exercising his/her RIGHT to drive any which way he likes because at speeds up to 30 to 40 miles an hour it's "quicker" than a manual while allowing the driver to concentrate 100 percent on staying alive.

Edited February 11, 2010 by jackcorbett

[troehr]

It's much easier to learn to bike on an Auto. Fully auto is even better. Because it frees you to pay attention to other things. Just one hazard less. Once you don't have any trouble weaving through traffic, learning to use the clutch is easy, and also much safer.

My 2ct

Why in the world would you be learning how to operate a bike on open roads filled with traffic? You don't learn how to use a clutch while weaving through traffic. You learn basic motorcycle skills away from traffic!

Are people arguing for autos assuming one learns how to ride a bike while dodging traffic?

When I bought my bike (manual) I didn't know how to ride (properly) and I had my bike sent to the nearest race track. There I learnt from an instructor how to properly operate my bike while on a closed road. Only after I was proficient and confident (about 6 hours of formal training) did I ride my bike home.

As I mentioned before, the only real benefits of an automatic transmission on a motorbike is ease of use and convenience.

An automatic transmission does not mean that it is suitable for people who do not know how to ride in the first place.

I too learned from professionals on a closed course. This is the only way to go in my opinion, but so be it. As far as autos go, I am really not in favor of one more thing to let you pay even less attention while riding. Riding safely is about paying attention and being in control of your bike at all times. This includes being in the power band when you ride, especially in traffic. I always have immediate power available because I am in the right gear that I chose. The gear change in the corners would worry me too. Good way to lose friction, especially with the friction challenged tires they have here.

Tim

[properperson]

could some one add me to the "autos are great, who in their right mind would want a manual change" camp....

Must hurt like <deleted> changing gear in flip flops ??

[troehr]

could some one add me to the "autos are great, who in their right mind would want a manual change" camp....

Must hurt like <deleted> changing gear in flip flops ??

I wouldn't know. I have never ridden my motorcycle in flip flops.

Tim