Usa Legislation Introduced Against Diploma Mills

[jazzbo]

As regards jobs, visas, work permits, etc.

... in the United States and abroad, the phony diploma industry has remained remarkably resilient, fed by often weak regulatory oversight, a ready market of workers looking for easily attained credentials needed for career advancement -- and, not unimportantly, unclear definitions of what a degree mill is that can make it difficult to crack down on them even when they are prosecuted.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/01/29/mills

[gotlost]

Is Koa San Road a diploma mill?

[Tod Daniels]

And what pray tell does this hafta do with ANYTHING related to obtaining visas to stay in Thailand??

Let me check... ... ...

still checking. ... ..

bear with me. ...

hmm, abso-tively posi-lutely NOTHING!!

[Thanyaburi Mac]

And what pray tell does this hafta do with ANYTHING related to obtaining visas to stay in Thailand??

Let me check... ... ...

still checking. ... ..

bear with me. ...

hmm, abso-tively posi-lutely NOTHING!!

Get a degree from such in Los Angeles might make it easier to get a good teaching position at a Thai university, or a good job with an international company. Just increases the opportunities, even if fake.

Mac

[jazzbo]

And what pray tell does this hafta do with ANYTHING related to obtaining visas to stay in Thailand??

From the Thailand Ministry of Foreign Affairs website:

2.4 Non-Immigrant Visa Category “B” (Teaching) Foreigners who intend to take up employment as school teachers at the levels below university level in Thailand must submit the following required documents:

- Evidence of educational qualification such as diplomas or teaching certificates.

[Guest]

And what pray tell does this hafta do with ANYTHING related to obtaining visas to stay in Thailand??

From the Thailand Ministry of Foreign Affairs website:

2.4 Non-Immigrant Visa Category “B” (Teaching) Foreigners who intend to take up employment as school teachers at the levels below university level in Thailand must submit the following required documents:

- Evidence of educational qualification such as diplomas or teaching certificates.

Its implied, even if not stated, that they must be genuine.

[jazzbo]

"We have an obligation to see to it that people have confidence in our institutions, particularly our institutions of higher education, and in the credentials they provide..." said the Bill's co-sponsor.

If persons within the US Federal Government are concerned that some may have applied for federal jobs and job advancements with phony credentials, it is not beyond reason that some may have been and are doing so within the Kingdom... other countries may model legislation on the US effort.

"The leadership of the U.S. will do wonders worldwide," said David Woodhouse, president of the Australian Universities Quality Agency.

[Scott]

Thanks and this situation has a lot to do with Thailand. I have authenticate each degree and that sometimes means doing an intense search of the internet first. I get a few of these every year and it's a pain in the behind to deal with.

[Phatcharanan]

Is Koa San Road a diploma mill?

No........... this is a recognised genuine qualification and they provide evidence of this by printing on the bottom "This is reel degree"

[Scott]

Do I sense that someone is being facetious?!!

Khao San Road degrees are fakes, forgeries and are fraudulent. Diploma Mills on the other hand are degrees that are issued from unaccredited schools. They may be fraudulent, but only if it is covered under a specific law of a country. Generally the holder of the degree has had to pay the 'institution' for the degree. There are unaccredited degrees from real schools who have chosen not to be accredited. A number of the religious schools do not go for accreditation.

I have encountered people who have a 4 year degree from unaccredited schools. At that time, they got work permits. I have also run into peopled with these degrees that have a subsequent Master's Degree that is from an accredited school--apparently some schools will allow for the transfer of some credits.

Getting rid of the diploma mills will go along way toward eliminating the problem here in Thailand. It won't cure it, but it will certainly help.

[Scott]

It is my understanding that the Philippines is a country not to be trusted on the issue of dodgy degrees. Not only are they issued, for a price, but the 'school' will verify the degree. We usually hire teachers from the Philippines who are on the official PRC website, which means they have passed a licensure examination. So, if you are hiring from the Philippines and you find someone who has very dodgy skills and very poor English--might want to check that out.

[tonititan]

Yup, I also know someone who has a degree from one of the unaccredited schools. All he had to do was pay a few hundred US dollars and send in his resume and work history...no tests, no classes. They gave him a diploma based on his "life experience." He used it to successfully apply for a work permit to teach in BKK.

I am looking forward to the day when these types of institutions are caught and shut down...

[Scott]

It's not a matter of catching them. They know about them and they know who they are. There has to be a law which makes it illegal, then they can shut them down.

[tonititan]

Ah, ok. That makes sense. I hope the law passes!

[grado]

but people holding the real diploma still cannot find a job

[grado]

get the real <a href="www.raffles-college.edu.sg/programmes.asp">advanced diploma</a> better lah, the fake diploma is cheap but no use.

Edited February 3, 2010 by grado

[Scott]

Apples and oranges. It will be a lot easier for people with a real degree to find work if those without proper credentials are eliminated from the job pool.

[mizzi39]

Apples and oranges. It will be a lot easier for people with a real degree to find work if those without proper credentials are eliminated from the job pool.

Again, Apples and oranges. OK, I will play the devils advocate for a moment. Most foreign degree holders as well as non degree holders who teach in LOS do not possess the proper credentials to teach. Where talking maybe 20% who do have proper credentials and that's even a stretch. The MOE has changed their criteria so many times over the years it's ridiculous.

I worked in Psychiatry as a counselor for almost 9 years before moving here. I never taught prior to coming to Thailand, therefore I did not have any teaching credentials. My teaching experience is solely based on the 2 years I have been teaching here.

If a Thai came to the United States, or any developed country they would need the most basic credentials just to get an interview. Those credentials are an ED degree (or a degree that gives you the proper credentials to teach) and most importantly valid teaching license BEFORE applying. No "other" degree would even cut it.

The problem is that you are dealing with a developing country that has an education system still stuck in its development stage.

Edited February 4, 2010 by mizzi39

[thunder30101]

Yes a degree is important , but honestly what does a western degree have to do with teaching in most thai schools ? I know teachers here with and without one, and I just have to say I have met many western degree holders that unfortunatly bring their western way of thinking with them and dont last very long teaching here. Teaching is much, much more than just a piece of paper. Some of the best teachers I know had no exp when they started.

[tonititan]

Thunder, I see where you're coming from, and I agree that a college degree doesn't instantly make someone a good teacher. Personally, I'm not as concerned the issue of whether English teachers in Thailand should be required to have a degree or not. That's a whole different issue.

What bothers me more is that the people buying these fake degrees are misrepresenting themselves as someone who took the coursework and completed all of the requirements to earn an academic college/university degree. In my eyes, it's fraud. Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but I feel like it's a slap in the face to me that my acquaintance who always worked in factories or fast food restaurants, has never taken a single college-level course, and writes with the sophistication of a teenager got his "degree" for about $200 after just filling out an application and submitting his resume. I gave put my life on hold and stopped earning a living for 4 years (actually 6 in total, including graduate school), worked my butt off, and am now paying back off over $30,000 in student loans. To an employer, it could appear that we have the same credentials. How is that fair? Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult or look down on people who don't go to college. There are many different paths in life, and everyone should follow the one that is best for them. I just don't think that anyone should misrepresent them as being something they are not.

[thunder30101]

I agree with what you are saying, but lets get real here nobody forced me or anyone else to give anything or put anything on hold to get our degree many of my friends back home didnt get the opportunity to go to school, nobody ever said life was fair. If you really have that big of a student loan why are you in thailand making 30k a month ? I could see your point if this was a country with real wages and serious teaching enviroments. The problem here is thailand gets what they pay for.

[Scott]

There are a lot of threads about degree vs. non-degree in teaching. I am not sure this is the point of the article. I think this has to do with unaccredited degrees. Hopefully, there can be a discussion, but let's try try to keep in roughly on the topic.

Thailand seems to be in a transition and the regulations could have a major impact on a lot of people in the country. It certainly will have an impact on the education system.

[tonititan]

I agree with what you are saying, but lets get real here nobody forced me or anyone else to give anything or put anything on hold to get our degree many of my friends back home didnt get the opportunity to go to school, nobody ever said life was fair.

I never said anyone forced me. Obviously it was my choice. I too feel bad for people who want to go to college and don't have the opportunity. That doesn't make it ok to lie and say they did by buying a fake degree, and putting it on your resume that you attended __XX__ University. I was not talking about online degrees or other legitimate alternatives to a traditional university - I was talking about fake degrees, specifically someone who received a "life experience degree."

If you really have that big of a student loan why are you in thailand making 30k a month ? I could see your point if this was a country with real wages and serious teaching enviroments. The problem here is thailand gets what they pay for.

I never said that I am making 30k/month, so I don't know why you assumed that. I came to Thailand because I could make more money here to pay off my debt than I could by working at home.

[mizzi39]

quote:

I never said anyone forced me. Obviously it was my choice. I too feel bad for people who want to go to college and don't have the opportunity. That doesn't make it ok to lie and say they did by buying a fake degree, and putting it on your resume that you attended __XX__ University. I was not talking about online degrees or other legitimate alternatives to a traditional university - I was talking about fake degrees, specifically someone who received a "life experience degree."

OK more devils advocate. Remember a "life experience degree" may be very dodgy and a question of ethics comes into play for many. I am certainly not disputing the fact that this issue needs to be addressed and regulated. In your mind it is a fake, but legally it is a legitimate degree issued by an uncredited institution and at this time of writing very much legal.

This does not mean that it has to be accepted as a credential, but no employer has to accept an individuals "credentials" no matter how legit.

I always thought that people who receive "honorary degree"s based on their life achievements were quite dodgy too, considering that the "committee" that approves these degrees are doing so based , not on coursework and earned credits, but again "life experience, and achievement". Very subjective and very political.

Edited February 5, 2010 by mizzi39

[tonititan]

Yes, you're right that employers don't have to accept these kinds of degrees, and I would hope that they would thoroughly investigate job candidates. The problem is that there are SO many college and universities out there that employers can't possibly know which ones are legitimate and accredited. On many of these schools' websites, there is a place for employers to verify that the degree is legit. So the unaccredited "school" (a better word may be "business" - just an office of people) who sold the degree is saying that yes, it's real! Hmm.,..it's easy to see the problem with that system. Many employers probably don't even know about this problem anyway, and would have no reason to be suspicious of the "school" itself.

I may not have as much of an issue with "life experience" or "honorary" degrees if the person truly has the background to deserve it. However, here's the background on the person I was talking about...he took a lot of shop classes (building/construction classes) in high school, participated in his high school technical skills club, and worked for about 8 years as a cashier at restaurants and working on an assembly line at a factory. He sent in his info, and the school said, "Great news...you qualify for an engineering life experience degree." So, if you look at his "diploma," it shows that he has a bachelor's degree in engineering. He has had NO engineering coursework or experience!

What life experience degree would I qualify for? Well, I volunteered at blood drives and at a hospital in high school. I took an anatomy class in college, and I used to be CPR certified. What if I bought myself a nice life experience degree in nursing and walked into some rural clinic that was desperate for nurses, flashed my diploma, and said I wanted a job? What if I GOT the job because the people running the clinic had no reason don't to trust my official looking diploma? Would that be ok for me to work on patients even though I have zero medical training or knowledge? Most people would say no, of course not, that's unethical. It shouldn't be different for any job.

I often hear of people complaining (and maybe rightfully so) that a bachelor's degree isn't worth much these days. A college degree used to (almost) guarantee a good job, but now it may not help you get a job at all. What is a bachelor's degree going to be worth in the future if everyone is allowed to just purchase a diploma whenever they want?

[thunder30101]

Okay what is a ba or bs worth nowadays ? not much really, ANYBODY can do it if they just SHOW UP half the time for classes in my home country, since the early 80's with the liberal thinking and constant dumbing down of education because you will get sued if you fail anyone a degree doesnt mean squat. Then if we factor in advances in technology such as the net, universites that never want to change their curriculum (still stuck in the 60's), online learning that is much better than listening to some pompous ass with a phd blow hot air for a semester, I mean get real most of my college was a waste of time. Most of the things I have learned have been on the job or through others in real life situations and exp. So just maybe that guy and others who you seem to harp about has a lot of experience that you or I will never get through any schooling.

[Phatcharanan]

Okay what is a ba or bs worth nowadays ? not much really, ANYBODY can do it if they just SHOW UP half the time for classes in my home country, since the early 80's with the liberal thinking and constant dumbing down of education because you will get sued if you fail anyone a degree doesnt mean squat. Then if we factor in advances in technology such as the net, universites that never want to change their curriculum (still stuck in the 60's), online learning that is much better than listening to some pompous ass with a phd blow hot air for a semester, I mean get real most of my college was a waste of time. Most of the things I have learned have been on the job or through others in real life situations and exp. So just maybe that guy and others who you seem to harp about has a lot of experience that you or I will never get through any schooling.

I dare say that the college you went to did indeed teach you sweet FA. Perhaps that is because that college was geared towards students of your level. A bit on the low side in terms of academic ability.

ANYBODY can do a BA or BSc if they just SHOW up? Yeah right. Try getting into Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Leicester...............let alone Oxford and the rest.

Can you provide a link please to where Uni's have been sued in the UK for failing a students graduation? If they did...........were they successful?

Why the ref to Phd's? Those guys and gals are, for the most part, about research..........not teaching. Publish or Perish?

Fairly obvious you are not a graduate.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Phatcharanan

[jazzbo]

While this topic is now in the Teaching in Thailand Forum, from the article referenced in the original post:

George Gollin, a physics professor who has developed a growing side interest in unaccredited degree-granting institutions and advised (the Legislation author), estimated that such entities award as many as 200,000 credentials a year and that the federal government spends roughly $300 million a year on raises alone for employees who got jobs or promotions using fraudulent degrees or certificates.

[thunder30101]

You want to insult me for bringing up some truths about the education system in my home country, you might try to find out which one it is before you go talking out your ass there my friend. East anglia and the farce that happened there doesnt back up your claims of stellar performance in the english education system. Phd's in my country TEACH , well they are paid to teach but usually have a teaching assistant do it for them while they use the taxpayer funded facilities to make money in their personal business. And as I always tell people, if you want to say negative things to someone say them to their face and not hide behind a computer.

[Scott]

Let's cut the insults, otherwise, posts will be deleted and suspensions given. This is about diploma mills.