15 Women Become 'Khunying'

[george]

CORONATION DAY / HONOURS

15 women become 'Khunying'

BANGKOK: -- To mark Coronation Day today, 15 women including well-known novelist Thommayanti and the wife of the Third Army commander will be awarded the Most Illustrious Order of Chula Chom Klao Member (Fourth Class), which bestows on them the notable title of ''Khunying''.

Only one lady, Khunying Suwannee Patpongpanich, has moved up to Dame Grand Commander (Second Class) with the ''Thanpuying'' title.

Thirty-five women are included in this year's honours list and will be bestowed with the royal decorations by His Majesty the King at the Grand Palace this evening.

The 15 new ''Khunying'' who will be bestowed with the decoration of Member (Fourth Class) are Wimol Siripaiboon, or novelist Thommayanti; Nittaya Muangmanee, wife of Third Army chief Lt-Gen Picharnmeth Muangmanee; Pornnapas Watthanothai, wife of Royal Project executive Gen Noppadol Watthanothai; Sujittra Mongkolkitti, an elder sister of Central Department Store executive Suthikiati Chirathivat; Achara Phuwanartnurak, the wife of former Fourth Army chief Gen Parnthep Phuwanartnurak; Dr Thaiwadee Dullayachinda of Siriraj Hospital; Komut Oonsrisong, a fisheries researcher from Chiang Mai; Col Amnuayporn Phothisorn, Phakaphan Thehamart, Prayoonsri Kao-ian, Prapa Rattanamaythanont, Chamlong Waewpanich, Darunee Poonsap, Dr Mallika Wannakrairoj of Krungthep Hospital, and Cherdchan Saengruji.

Five ''Khunying'' will be bestowed with decorations Dame Commander (Second Class) and another 14 ''Khunying'' Companion (Third Class) .

Various classes of the Most Illustrious Order of Chula Chom Klao were established in 1873 by King Rama V.

Men are eligible for the Knight Grand Cross (First Class), Knight Grand Commander (Second Class), Knight Commander (Second Class), Grand Companion (Third Class) and Companion (Third Class), and women the Dame Grand Commander (Second Class), Dame Commander (Second Class), Companion (Third Class) and Member (Fourth Class).

--Bangkok Post 2005-05-05

[SingularMess]

So do they now immediately run out and get the Khunying hairdo? Or did they have to already have it to be considered?

[penelope]

the purple hair dye shop must be doing a brisk trade this month

[marquess]

Don't men get any titles? I know their used to be herditary titles here in Thailand.

[penelope]

Don't men get any titles? I know their used to be herditary titles here in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

my wife got her "na ayudhya" from her father, that is hereditary. I believe there are also many "commander" ranks that can be bestowed upon men.

[Rinrada]

Don't men get any titles? I know their used to be herditary titles here in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

my wife got her "na ayudhya" from her father, that is hereditary. I believe there are also many "commander" ranks that can be bestowed upon men.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

one of my nieces got her "na ayudhya" from her father and would also agree agree it is hereditary....but K.W. told me not to shout about it.

Now I know where she gets her "attitude" from

[Heng]

It's not a title. It's a noble last name. And nowadays, it's not terribly noble. Even n'Ning (the bilingual UBC gal) is in the clan... and you can hire her for 6,000 Baht an evening to MC your wedding.

[Rinrada]

You want to see wot our lot at at the end of the" Mall" get up to....help ma boab

[Ajarn]

Even Patpong has gone up a notch

[baht&sold]

I'm sure we'll see photos in many magazines 'society' pages upcoming... along with pics of other hobnobs, yes, farang and thai. Sells (apparently)

Edited May 5, 2005 by bahtandsold

[astral]

I know their used to be herditary titles here in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There still are.

I used to work with a a guy who had M.R. in front of his name.

No not Mister,

it was Mom Rachada, something similar to "The Honourable", in England.

[thaiprivateeye]

While it's easy to poke fun at the blue-bloods who concern themselves with garnering Royal Decorations, phaleristics is a surprisingly popular hobby. Thailand is acknowledged to bestow some of the most beautiful medals in the world. Most of the awards come in numerous classes or grades for both men and women.

Feast your eyes.

Edited May 6, 2005 by thaiprivateeye

[The_Other_Mac]

I can only assume that most of the contributors so far are American, and "don't get it".

I know their used to be herditary titles here in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There still are.

I used to work with a a guy who had M.R. in front of his name.

No not Mister,

it was Mom Rachada, something similar to "The Honourable", in England.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

na Ayudhaya is an xth generation descendent of

ML = Mom Luang. The parent of this person is

MR = Mom Rajawongse (not Rachada but close enough...). The parent of this person is

MC = Mom Chao. The parent of this person is

Chao Fa. The parent of this person, well, I can't actually remember the proper Thai words. But the short English word is:

King.

[Heng]

na Ayudhaya is an xth generation descendent of

ML = Mom Luang. The parent of this person is

MR = Mom Rajawongse (not Rachada but close enough...). The parent of this person is

MC = Mom Chao. The parent of this person is

Chao Fa. The parent of this person, well, I can't actually remember the proper Thai words. But the short English word is:

King.

True. But it's still not a title. "Pop" Areeya (former Miss Thailand) even added a Na Ayudhaya to her name just to look good. However, this wasn't any kind of lese majeste or crime against royalty because it is indeed more like a last name (no different than Na Ranong, Na Songkla, Von Braun or Von Stein). The family association called a meeting and asked her on several occasions to change her last name (as yes, it was "legal") with "Pop" ignoring the whole thing for years. Eventually the threat of taking her to court got her to pull the last name. If it was a noble title issue, the courts wouldn't even have to get involved, as she would have been in "real" trouble.

[Ajarn]

I read that the royal affiliations only last 5 generations of down-stepping before it all ends...

[The_Other_Mac]

Not contradicting you that "na Ayudhaya" isn't a title, but that seems a bit illegal to me on different grounds. As I understand it, Thai law requires (when changing your family name) that you pick a name which does not already belong to another family. While "na Ayudhaya" isn't a surname, it seems to be a claim that you belong to that family, which she doesn't.

But since it was only her family that complained, I assume I'm wrong

Okay here's a question: have the descendents of King Taksin got a dynastic suffix?

[Heng]

Not contradicting you that "na Ayudhaya" isn't a title, but that seems a bit illegal to me on different grounds. As I understand it, Thai law requires (when changing your family name) that you pick a name which does not already belong to another family. While "na Ayudhaya" isn't a surname, it seems to be a claim that you belong to that family, which she doesn't.

But since it was only her family that complained, I assume I'm wrong  

Okay here's a question: have the descendents of King Taksin got a dynastic suffix?

No idea about that one. I'd assume that people wouldn't want to claim it.

I know the rule (not even sure if it was a law) was in effect when my grandparents changed their Chinese names to Thai names about 70+ years ago (probably longer actually as my oldest uncle is about 90... and his parents were here for awhile before they had him), but I'm not sure if it's still in effect today. I don't think it'd be a rule that would be easily enforced because of the sheer numbers of amphurs involved that CAN change your name. As the old folks say, 'the city/country wasn't as spread out back then', fewer degrees of separation.

[The_Other_Mac]

Oh that's easy, you just pick a name with seven syllables, and the chance of someone else having it is is greatly reduced...

[Ajarn]

Not contradicting you that "na Ayudhaya" isn't a title, but that seems a bit illegal to me on different grounds. As I understand it, Thai law requires (when changing your family name) that you pick a name which does not already belong to another family. While "na Ayudhaya" isn't a surname, it seems to be a claim that you belong to that family, which she doesn't.

But since it was only her family that complained, I assume I'm wrong  

Okay here's a question: have the descendents of King Taksin got a dynastic suffix?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I also seem to remember getting the idea that 'na Ayudhaya' is what you can use when the royal generations have passed, and that it signifies past royal connections...

Not 100% sure....

Heng, have you ever heard of the '4 syllable' minimum for Chinese taking new Thai names? That is also something I heard long ago, and it seems many Thai Chinese names are at least 4 syllables... Not sure about a rule for that, though.

[penelope]

I also seem to remember getting the idea that 'na Ayudhaya' is what you can use when the royal generations have passed, and that it signifies past royal connections...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thats how i understand it, and in my wife's case the link goes back to one of Rama 5's concubines.

[Heng]

Heng, have you ever heard of the '4 syllable' minimum for Chinese taking new Thai names? That is also something I heard long ago, and it seems many Thai Chinese names are at least 4 syllables... Not sure about a rule for that, though.

Will ask my friends or family about it at the next group meeting. My immediate parents say "hmm... good question."

[Johpa]

I also seem to remember getting the idea that 'na Ayudhaya' is what you can use when the royal generations have passed, and that it signifies past royal connections...

Not 100% sure....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are numerous old ruling families of the larger Muangs that are not Royals who use the Na <name of town> as a last name, Na Ayuattya, Na Chiang Mai, and others. If people are now changing their family names or using it as a title then it must be a new fashion phenomena to assist those who are unable to pony up with the funds needed to obtain peerage ratings such as Khunying. To the best of my knowledge there is no traditional usage of Na Ayuttaya to show descent from a Royal such as Mom Luang (M.L.) or Mom Ratachawang (M. R.).

[Ajarn]

from: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.cu...1884e0978?hl=en

The great-grandchildren of a king do not bear royal rank but are

entitled to use the title of Mom Rajawongse, which is not translated

into English. The great- great-grandchildren bear the title of Mom

Luang. Subsequent generations in the male line of decent from a king

have no titles, but may add the dynastic surname of "Na Ayudhya" to

the surname of the branch of the Royal Family from which they

descend

Jopha, I don't know where Torben got this from.

Edited May 8, 2005 by Ajarn

[penelope]

http://www.soravij.com/titles.html

[Ajarn]

To simplify things, here is the full descriptions from http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.cu...1884e0978?hl=en

The full family tree of the Chakri Dynasty is complex and at times

perplexing. Each king and queen is known by several different names

and titles, some posthumously conferred.

Many of the princes and princesses have more than one title, and

alterations can be made, not only to their rank but also to the terms

describing their relationship to the reigning monarch, which change

from reign to reign. These ranks and titles are finely graded;

revealing nuances which explain the exact rank and relationship to the

king of the individual prince or princess.

This hierarchy of rank and title is unique to Thailand [although a

similar, but less complex system exists within the royal family of

Cambodia] and is the most elaborate system of royal rank to be found

in any country in the world. There are three distinct ranks of prince

and princess, but even within each rank there are finer distinctions,

which divide the members into different sub-groups. The three main

ranks are as follows: -

The Chao Fa This title is usually restricted to the children of a king

or queen. There are at present only five Chao Fa living, one prince

and four princesses; they include the present Crown Prince, two

daughters of His Majesty King Bhumibol Adulyadej, his sister, and the

daughter of His late Majesty King Vajiravudh [Rama VI] . Another

daughter of His present Majesty, the former Princess Ubol Ratana

Rajakanya, who relinquished her royal title in 1972, was also of this

rank.

The Phra Ong Chao--there are two specific grades within this rank,

those Phra Ong Chao who have the additional word Chao within the

preamble to their title, and those who do not:

[Phra Chao Vorawongse Ther] Phra Ong Chao--Prince or Princess and

Royal Highness.

[Phra Vorawongse Ther] Phra Ong Chao--Prince or Princess and

Highness.

The Phra Ong Chao nowadays are always the grandchildren of a

king--three of the present King's grandchildren are of this rank, and

the other 10 living Phra Ong Chao are all grandchildren of King

Chulalongkorn [Rama V], from senior lines of descent.

The Mom Chao--this is the lowest of the royal ranks and the usual

title of a grandchildren of a king [except where raised to be a Phra

Ong Chao]; in the case of a great-grandchild of a king who is a Mom

Chao then he or she is the child of a Phra Ong Chao prince, who is

himself of a grandchild of a king.

The Mom Chao are known in English as Prince or Princess and Serene

Highness. There are at present some 150 Mom Chao living--53 are

grandchildren or great- grandchildren of King Chulalongkorn [Rama V],

82 are grandchildren or great-grandchildren of King Mongkut [Rama IV],

14 are grandchildren of the last Maha Uparaja [or Deputy King] and

one, the last surviving grandchild of Second King Pinklao, who died in

1866.

They are for the most part elderly and in the years to come their

number will be much diminished. In the early part of this century the

total of Mom Chao was much higher, numbering several hundred, and

including grandchildren of King Rama III, King Rama II and even King

Rama I, as well as numerous grandchildren of the earlier Maha Uparaja.

By the end of the century it is likely that there will only be several

dozen Mom Chao left within the Royal Family.

The great-grandchildren of a king do not bear royal rank but are

entitled to use the title of Mom Rajawongse, which is not translated

into English. The great- great-grandchildren bear the title of Mom

Luang. Subsequent generations in the male line of decent from a king

have no titles, but may add the dynastic surname of "Na Ayudhya" to

the surname of the branch of the Royal Family from which they

descend.

The Royal Family is divided into 131 different branches. Each son of a

king, or Maha Uparaja, who founded a family, was granted a surname by

King Vajiravudh [Rama VI] - several more were granted during the reign

of his successor, King Prajadhipok [Rama VII].

As part of the 60th birthday celebrations of His Majesty King Bhumibol

Adulyadej, representatives of each branch will gather at the

Chitralada Villa of Dusit Palace in a ceremony that has not been

performed for many years. They will be received in audience by the

King in the Dusidalai Hall and will be grouped strictly according to

the seniority of their descent from the previous kings of the Chakri

Dynasty.

The task of deciding the order of precedence is not an easy one and

assistance is given by the chairman of the family association of the

Chakri Dynasty, who keeps careful track of the whereabouts of each

branch and its members, ensuring that they are informed of the

gathering and at the same time checking that no imposters lay claim to

an unverified descent.

This is rare, though from time to time "pretenders" do emerge and

assume the name of some remote line of descent of the Royal Family.

The names of the Kings of the Chakri Dynasty are long and complex and

take various forms. It is customary that the sovereign's name is

longer than that of anyone else in the Kingdom and the full royal name

and title, as inscribed on a golden name plate at the time of the

coronation, is impractical for daily use.

Several different systems for naming the kings have developed over the

years. In the reign of King Rama III it was decided that the first two

kings of the Chakri Dynasty should be accorded a personal name.

Hitherto, people had referred to these two kings as "The King of the

Foremost Reign" and "The King of the Middle Reign."

King Rama III had two large golden Buddha images made and dedicated

them to the first two kings and decreed that they be known as King

Buddha Yot Fa and King Buddha Loet La.

He himself became King Nang Klao. His successors became King Chom Klao

[Mongkut], King Chula Chom Klao [Chulalongkorn], King Mongkut Klao

(Vajiravudh) and King Pok Klao [Prajadhipok].

Abroad and to foreigners living within the country these kings were

known by other names - the personal name they had before their

accession - hence King Mongkut, King Chulalongkorn, King Vajiravudh

and King Prajadhipok, and this custom was continued during the two

subsequent reigns with King Ananda Mahidol and King Bhumibol

Adulyadej.

One of the fascinations of the Thai system of royal rank and title is

the subtlety with which the title of a member of the Royal House

reveals an exact degree of rank. Apart from the three distinct

princely ranks mentioned earlier there are other features of royal

titles, which further define the holder's true position in the royal

hierarchy. In the titles of all princes and princesses of Phra Ong

Chao and Chao Fa rank are to be found certain words, which also

indicate their relationship to the reigning King.

These form part of the preamble to the title and in the case of the

closest royal relatives indicate the exact relationship. More distant

relatives have a word indicating to which group of princes and

princesses they belong. Thus the son of the reigning king will be

Somdetch Phra Chao Lukya Ther Chao Fa, the daughter Somdetch Phra Chao

Luk Ther Chao Fa, the elder brother Somdetch Phra Chao Piya Ther Chao

Fa, the younger brother Somdetch Phra Chao Nongya Ther Chao Fa, and so

on.

These relationship terms change from reign to reign, with the children

of one king becoming, perhaps the elder and younger brothers and

sisters of the next king. The system applies equally to deceased

members of the Royal Family and the late younger brother of a reigning

king will become the late uncle of his successor and his title will be

altered accordingly. There is thus a gradual and evolving pattern of

change within the system of royal titles.

Another feature of the precise definition of rank can be found among

the regalia of the most senior members of the Royal Family. When they

receive their titles they are presented with a set of regalia, which,

should their title be high enough, will include a multi-tiered royal

umbrellas, or parasol. These royal umbrellas are of different levels,

usually of five, seven or nine tiers.

Only a crowned king possesses a nine-tiered umbrella [prior to his

coronation he is entitled to one of seven tiers]. The holders of seven

tier umbrellas form a special group within the Royal Family, those

whose titles contain the words "Somdetch Phra Baromma" and at the

present time these include only four people, Her Majesty the Queen,

H.R.H. the Crown Prince, H.R.H. the Princess Mother and princesses of

Cho Fa rank are entitled to royal umbrellas of five tiers.

These royal umbrellas reveal the rank of the holder and as such can

form part of their insignia or coats-of-arms and at their cremations

are to be found suspended above the crematorium, or above their urns

at their lyings-in-state.

As the Thai system of rank is so very much more complex than those

systems to be found in European countries it is often difficult to

ascribe adequate titles in English and the other European languages. A

system has evolved gradually, beginning as early as the reign of King

Mongkut.

He and his successors took particular care in choosing the correct

English words to be used as a translation for various Thai royal

titles, and in the cases of King Chulalongkorn and King Vajiravudh

discussions took place between themselves and members of European

royal families on choosing suitable equivalents.

However, the European languages cannot convey the degree of subtlety

apparent in the Thai system and anomalies occur. Although the Queen is

Her Majesty, the Princess Mother, according to European custom is only

Her Royal Highness, a rank equal to those of certain princes and

princesses.

In Europe the mother of a reigning king whose father has never been

king cannot be a queen mother, as she was herself never a queen

consort and is therefore known as the princess mother. That the

present Princess Mother of Thailand was raised to the rank of Somdetch

Phra Baromma with the right to seven levels of royal umbrellas during

the reign of her son cannot be adequately conveyed in the English

rendering of her title.

[penelope]

http://www.soravij.com/titles.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Follow this link for a good chart

[chuchok]

Not contradicting you that "na Ayudhaya" isn't a title, but that seems a bit illegal to me on different grounds. As I understand it, Thai law requires (when changing your family name) that you pick a name which does not already belong to another family. While "na Ayudhaya" isn't a surname, it seems to be a claim that you belong to that family, which she doesn't.

But since it was only her family that complained, I assume I'm wrong   

Okay here's a question: have the descendents of King Taksin got a dynastic suffix?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I also seem to remember getting the idea that 'na Ayudhaya' is what you can use when the royal generations have passed, and that it signifies past royal connections...

Not 100% sure....

Heng, have you ever heard of the '4 syllable' minimum for Chinese taking new Thai names? That is also something I heard long ago, and it seems many Thai Chinese names are at least 4 syllables... Not sure about a rule for that, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This story was relayed to me by a Thai lady in NZ. i can't remember what King she was talking about, but she told me that one of the Kings many, many years ago told all Chinese immigrants that if they were to stay in Thailand legally, then they must adopt Thai names.

The lady in question was University educated in the USA...Still, don't know how true this is.

[penelope]

Not contradicting you that "na Ayudhaya" isn't a title, but that seems a bit illegal to me on different grounds. As I understand it, Thai law requires (when changing your family name) that you pick a name which does not already belong to another family. While "na Ayudhaya" isn't a surname, it seems to be a claim that you belong to that family, which she doesn't.

But since it was only her family that complained, I assume I'm wrong   

Okay here's a question: have the descendents of King Taksin got a dynastic suffix?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I also seem to remember getting the idea that 'na Ayudhaya' is what you can use when the royal generations have passed, and that it signifies past royal connections...

Not 100% sure....

Heng, have you ever heard of the '4 syllable' minimum for Chinese taking new Thai names? That is also something I heard long ago, and it seems many Thai Chinese names are at least 4 syllables... Not sure about a rule for that, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This story was relayed to me by a Thai lady in NZ. i can't remember what King she was talking about, but she told me that one of the Kings many, many years ago told all Chinese immigrants that if they were to stay in Thailand legally, then they must adopt Thai names.

The lady in question was University educated in the USA...Still, don't know how true this is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rama V was responsible for many social and cultural reforms.One I am extremely grateful for being the adoption of the "fork"

My wife did her masters in Sydney, and I know more about her surname suffix and lineage than she does ... haha.