Any Audiophiles Out There?

[astral]

And this is why I dont like home theatre set ups, all that clumbsy bass and distortion, YUK. Theres no substitute for fine hi-fi audio (2 speakers)

and thats my opinion

If there is clumsy bass and distortion I wonder if the HT is set up correctly?

Or just too cheap a version.

I have heard some of the cheap 5.1 setups sold for computers...........

I do agree with you on the fine Hi Fi for music.

Then I suggest you add a stand alone HT processor, no integral amps, to seperate out the 7.1 for films, possibly TV.

Pass the front signal though your fine Hi Fi and have another amp setup for the rear and centre.

That way you get the best of both worlds.

[neverdie]

And this is why I dont like home theatre set ups, all that clumbsy bass and distortion, YUK. Theres no substitute for fine hi-fi audio (2 speakers)

and thats my opinion

If there is clumsy bass and distortion I wonder if the HT is set up correctly?

Or just too cheap a version.

I have heard some of the cheap 5.1 setups sold for computers...........

I do agree with you on the fine Hi Fi for music.

Then add a stand alone HT processor, no integral amps, to seperate out the 7.1 for films, possibly TV.

Pass the front signal though your fine Hi Fi and have another amp setup for the rear and centre.

That way you get the best of both worlds.

Yes, in my other world, down under, I had two set ups, the surround sound jobby was elcheapo, about 50k baht but only ran thru the idiot box & dvd player to watch the dvd's. For music I went to my middle of the road combo of NAD & KEF. If I wanted to get really freaky with something I went over to my mates place.......he has an audio room and a wad of gear including a set of elctostatic speakers which were great for listening to certain types of music.

Anyway, all I have now is my NAD components, they are a little old now but in my opinion sound a bit better than current NAD gear. When I grow up I would like something a little better than that.....time will tell.

[chrgrims]

In the homeland i had a setup with separate amp for left and right and another for the back speakers. Used NAD for it all. Worked well, had more control. no sub or center. sub is not necessary if your main speakers are good and big.

[pkspeaker]

lemme give you a secret instead of going to that place in Gaysorn and getting a 'good deal' on speakers for 26.000 or 40.000 baht .. heres what i did once..

go buy one of those crappy speakers they sell on the side of the road, the ones with the plywood finish 2 small woofers and a tweeter for whatever they sell them for 1000b or whatever.. now goto a place like that store they have in the basement of Tukcom in pattaya, goto the speaker section and you will see they are selling high-quality tweeters for 400-800B a piece, get 2 of them and the store clerk will give you this little transistor and buy a solder dun for another 100baht.

go home and remove the tweeter, notice how small the magnet is on the old tweeter compared to the new tweeter you just bought-ahha so thats how it works cut the wires and solder in the new tweeter and transistor to the wires (at this point you might have to enlarge the hole in the wood with a saw-thats the hard part but put some elbowgrease into it)

NOW comapare the sound quality of the upgraded speaker to the one you havent done yet, you will be shocked at the difference in sound quality, not only does the tweeter sound better but the 2 woofers are now delivering a professional sound-the reason is that the big magnet on the new tweeter is now 'driving' those bases! thats just the thing, you don't even have to change out the woofers, the 'crappy' ones will sound excellent.. do the other one, you now have 2 speakers that sound as good or almost as good as those 40 or 60.000B speakers they sell at Gaysorn or any other snazzy shop and you paid about 2000B for everything

anyways that was my experience, ok so the speakers still look like crap but they sound excellent!

[JackA]

I would be careful with that - because you need to take the crossover network into consideration as well - and each woofer + tweeter should be mached carefully - exchanging drivers is easy to do - but figuring out the crossover + cabinet volume (optimal for woofer), resonances + figuring out which frequency the bass reflex port have to be tuned for.

In my book there's a lot of considerations to be taken - BEFORE buying some off the shelf drivers and put in a cabinet.

By the way - if you like highend sound (but not the price) - you can buy "clones" - and here in thailand, I would strongly suggest:

http://www.discoveryhifi.com/product.html

Prices are here:

http://www.discoveryhifi.com/purchase.html

They are primarily cloning : ProAc and Focus audio - with good result and VERY nice wood / veneer work as well.

I have been building speakers as well, but always opted for "car kits" - dynaudio / seas / scanspeak, which comes with drivers + crossovers.

And all of the above is of course MY own opinion - and should be disregarded at your discretion.

[neverdie]

lemme give you a secret instead of going to that place in Gaysorn and getting a 'good deal' on speakers for 26.000 or 40.000 baht .. heres what i did once..

go buy one of those crappy speakers they sell on the side of the road, the ones with the plywood finish 2 small woofers and a tweeter for whatever they sell them for 1000b or whatever.. now goto a place like that store they have in the basement of Tukcom in pattaya, goto the speaker section and you will see they are selling high-quality tweeters for 400-800B a piece, get 2 of them and the store clerk will give you this little transistor and buy a solder dun for another 100baht.

go home and remove the tweeter, notice how small the magnet is on the old tweeter compared to the new tweeter you just bought-ahha so thats how it works cut the wires and solder in the new tweeter and transistor to the wires (at this point you might have to enlarge the hole in the wood with a saw-thats the hard part but put some elbowgrease into it)

NOW comapare the sound quality of the upgraded speaker to the one you havent done yet, you will be shocked at the difference in sound quality, not only does the tweeter sound better but the 2 woofers are now delivering a professional sound-the reason is that the big magnet on the new tweeter is now 'driving' those bases! thats just the thing, you don't even have to change out the woofers, the 'crappy' ones will sound excellent.. do the other one, you now have 2 speakers that sound as good or almost as good as those 40 or 60.000B speakers they sell at Gaysorn or any other snazzy shop and you paid about 2000B for everything

anyways that was my experience, ok so the speakers still look like crap but they sound excellent!

Sorry, its a comical post yours. Bit like buying a Ferrari engine and putting it inside a Toyota Yaris...sure it will go really fast in a straight line, but it wont go around corners real well, won't stop and eventually things like the transmission etc will break.

Theres so much more to a speaker than just a tweeter. Many cheap speakers are just good for bashing sound out, albiet sloppy and misrepresented sound.....

[pkspeaker]

mm i don't know it sounds pretty good to me, if you were to go into a store and dismantle a bunch of mediocre speakers, you would see the cheap little tweeter every time-it's 90% of the reason the sound the way they do, for the price of those crappy speakers, you can do what i just suggested and get something that sounds ALOT better, i never had the opportunity to take mine head to head against these expensive brands but when it sounds good it sounds good, the mediocre speakers always have the dull sound.. also if you want a hiquality bass aswell you can just buy all the parts at one of those stores including an empty cabnet and expensive bass-but then it will be more expensive-my way is the absolute cheapest option for a good sound, i had thought about replacing one of the basses on mine with a more expensive bass, that way the second bass would act as a midrange but never did bother because it seems unnecessary; and of cource it doesn't eventually 'break' like a ferrari engine dropping out of a yaris.

[chrgrims]

its an interesting idea for sure. will lose some because of bad cabinet, but gain a lot for a very cheap price.

[bankruatsteve]

C'mon - I don't have expertise in building speakers but I do know that it's more than jamming various sond devices in a box. Just like good wine, you can find some good cheap ones, but in general you get what you pay for.

[Benjie]

I've looked into the idea of building speakers and there is so much more to it than that, speakers are designed to be used with certain cabinet sizes/volumes and ports for a start. Then there is rollover characteristics of each speaker and the crossover network etc...

[pkspeaker]

my thing is, i'm not payen 60-100.000 baht for a stereo system when i can get a new motorcycle or a down payment on a new car for that much, but at the same time a system that costs less than 10,000 is gonna sound like crap.. these speakers sound good, even with a cheap amplifier, not the best but it sounds good for really cheap..thats the way i'm lookin at it, if you have a high budget then this isn't the option for you, depends on your financial priorities

i read in another post someone mention that 'tile floors' will make the sound harsh and this business with cabinets..it's nice to have a nice wood cabnet because it looks nice, but the notion that you could hear the difference between the 2 is crazy talk, i don't believe it, i'm about 40 and still got good hearing but the main thing when building a speaker is to make sure there no distortion, i think that can happen if the bass and tweeter are not compatible, but didn't happen with mine as long as treble is not turned too high, keep the nob just a little past the middle, i think that transistor is creating some kind of a crossover, i assume thats what it's for but most speakers don't have alot of advanced circuitry inside the cabnet, just a few wires and a transistor ..

[Benjie]

my thing is, i'm not payen 60-100.000 baht for a stereo system when i can get a new motorcycle or a down payment on a new car for that much, but at the same time a system that costs less than 10,000 is gonna sound like crap.. these speakers sound good, even with a cheap amplifier, not the best but it sounds good for really cheap..thats the way i'm lookin at it, if you have a high budget then this isn't the option for you, depends on your financial priorities

i read in another post someone mention that 'tile floors' will make the sound harsh and this business with cabinets..it's nice to have a nice wood cabnet because it looks nice, but the notion that you could hear the difference between the 2 is crazy talk, i don't believe it, i'm about 40 and still got good hearing but the main thing when building a speaker is to make sure there no distortion, i think that can happen if the bass and tweeter are not compatible, but didn't happen with mine as long as treble is not turned too high, keep the nob just a little past the middle, i think that transistor is creating some kind of a crossover, i assume thats what it's for but most speakers don't have alot of advanced circuitry inside the cabnet, just a few wires and a transistor ..

You are kidding right?

You THINK the transistor is creating some kind of crossover.

Mate spend 9,000 Baht or so on a pair of MS902is or similar and compare them to your home made speakers, It just sounds like you've never heard a good pair of budget speakers before.

[pkspeaker]

well what is it (the transistor) doing then? what exactly is the circuitry for a crossover? I have heard good speakers before, like Infinity and Advent in the sound rooms at us stores- they used to sell in the US, like about 15 years ago when i was in the US i would go in a "goodguys" or "circuitcity" store, you would see them selling these big sterio systems with speakers like Fisher, JBL, Sony, Technics, Panasonic - you know those one they are these kind of speakers with a big bass and middle range and a cheap tweeter-they would come free with the rest of the system, when you go into the soundroom there is a big difference between the 'boys'-being those crappy speakers that come free with with the complete system (amplifier/tuner/cdplayer & BIG speakers that have that dull sound) and the 'men' those professional type speakers.. the salesmen used to tell me that sometimes people buy the complete system and discard the freespeakers and then get a good speaker from the sound room and get a good ones, because the most important thing is the speakers.

what i'm saying is those cheap speakers they sell here on the side of the road are basically one of those Panasonics, and if you do what i suggested to one of them it drastically improves the sound, so they sound like one of the good ones; comparing them to other speakers-i havnt had the opportunity to do so. but you havn't done anything so how would you know..

[astral]

I have never seen a transistor in a crossover?

Crossovers are usually passive with capaciitors and inductances and a great deal of care

goes into the design to match with the supplied bass and tweeter to ensure a smooth

transition from one to the other as the frequency changes.

[basjke]

well what is it (the transistor) doing then? what exactly is the circuitry for a crossover? I have heard good speakers before, like Infinity and Advent in the sound rooms at us stores- they used to sell in the US, like about 15 years ago when i was in the US i would go in a "goodguys" or "circuitcity" store, you would see them selling these big sterio systems with speakers like Fisher, JBL, Sony, Technics, Panasonic - you know those one they are these kind of speakers with a big bass and middle range and a cheap tweeter-they would come free with the rest of the system, when you go into the soundroom there is a big difference between the 'boys'-being those crappy speakers that come free with with the complete system (amplifier/tuner/cdplayer & BIG speakers that have that dull sound) and the 'men' those professional type speakers.. the salesmen used to tell me that sometimes people buy the complete system and discard the freespeakers and then get a good speaker from the sound room and get a good ones, because the most important thing is the speakers.

what i'm saying is those cheap speakers they sell here on the side of the road are basically one of those Panasonics, and if you do what i suggested to one of them it drastically improves the sound, so they sound like one of the good ones; comparing them to other speakers-i havnt had the opportunity to do so. but you havn't done anything so how would you know..

If it was that easy,don't you think the manufacturers of those cheap speakers would spend a few hundred baht more and improve their systems worth a few thousand Baht?

[neverdie]

look its horses for courses, maybe he's happy with harsh sounding gear. hes probably one of the, as long as its really loud crowd. Up to him, if making his own gear out of poorly built speaker boxes etc, good luck to him.....think of the thousands he is saving to reach the same giddy heights of happiness.

[pkspeaker]

basjke-do you understand capitalism? manufactured products are manufactured from a bunch of cheap components and marked up significantly, they are then sold to a distributor who marks them up again and then sells them to the retailer.. those cheap big speakers they sell are manufactured in large quantity, the people that buy them just see this big speaker and think it's hifi, and they pretty much sound the same as those ones in the US, Panasonic etc. sold at large retailers. for most people they sound good enough, especially if they use a cheap equalizer to boost the sound, they sell a large quantity and make money

why do you think they sell those component parts in the basement of tukom, because they don't work? people build their own speakers so they can get better quality for a lower price, it's just like if you build your own PC you get more power for less money then if you bought a Dell or Acer, it just takes a little work, with speakers the price gap is even wider because fewer of those professional type speakers are sold.

neverdie-i hate loudness, if i were one of those people that just likes loud sound i would just use the cheap speaker and turn it up, i listen to music at a low or medium volume. Harsh sound? like when you have your speakers in a room with tiled floors? if it's not distorting and it sounds good then it is a good sounding speaker.

let me again quote the OP "I would like to purchase a good set of speakers (really looking for a good value/quality equation)." He said he wants to get a good sound for a cheaper price, I have given him some options to do that; I didn't say that my speakers are the best in the world I'm saying they sound professional and they don't distort, he might wanna go to a place like tukom and take a look.

[Benjie]

basjke-do you understand capitalism? manufactured products are manufactured from a bunch of cheap components and marked up significantly, they are then sold to a distributor who marks them up again and then sells them to the retailer.. those cheap big speakers they sell are manufactured in large quantity, the people that buy them just see this big speaker and think it's hifi, and they pretty much sound the same as those ones in the US, Panasonic etc. sold at large retailers. for most people they sound good enough, especially if they use a cheap equalizer to boost the sound, they sell a large quantity and make money

why do you think they sell those component parts in the basement of tukom, because they don't work? people build their own speakers so they can get better quality for a lower price, it's just like if you build your own PC you get more power for less money then if you bought a Dell or Acer, it just takes a little work, with speakers the price gap is even wider because fewer of those professional type speakers are sold.

neverdie-i hate loudness, if i were one of those people that just likes loud sound i would just use the cheap speaker and turn it up, i listen to music at a low or medium volume. Harsh sound? like when you have your speakers in a room with tiled floors? if it's not distorting and it sounds good then it is a good sounding speaker.

let me again quote the OP "I would like to purchase a good set of speakers (really looking for a good value/quality equation)." He said he wants to get a good sound for a cheaper price, I have given him some options to do that; I didn't say that my speakers are the best in the world I'm saying they sound professional and they don't distort, he might wanna go to a place like tukom and take a look.

I think people simply have different ideas of what 'good' sounds like, by your own admission you've never heard a proper set up.

Besides most of the speaker components (tweeters, mid/bass) I have seen here in the electronic shops are junk or copies.

[astral]

It is not just speakers.

You have to consider every component from source DVD/CD/BR, to the amp to the speakers

(and even the cables make a difference) if you want to hear a good sound.

Your budget should be divided in a similar fashion 30% source - 30% amp - 30% speakers then

the other 10% for stands and cables

[pkspeaker]

I never 'admitted' to never hearing a proper setup, the contrary- I said that I have visited showrooms in which there are some fairly expensive equipment in there and you can listen to them. I live a few minutes from Siam Paragon and I can go anytime and listen to some pretty nice setups anytime.

I very much question the ability of the human ear to hear the difference between good and standard cables, and between a wooden cabnet and a pressboard cabinet; my feeling is that whats good about nice cabnets is the way they look, not the way they sound.

There is another thread on this forum right now in which a test was made between a 720P and a 1080P video, only 59% of the people could see the difference! My question is if we were to take several of these systems, including mine, with the normal amplifier and rigged speakers, some other nice a speakers against each other with a blindfold test-and then we were to playback the music at slightly different volumes, so that my system was going against a superior system (not a radically superiors system but a superior system), but that superior system was at a slightly lower volume than mine-it would be interesting to do this test and see the results.

You keep saying my speakers suck but you havn't heard my speakers. Again the OP was was asking for value, this is not a thread about the best possible system, he even gave a price range LESS THAN 40,000B for 2 of them.

Let me just mention another 2 things you guys said:

"most of the speaker components (tweeters, mid/bass) I have seen here in the electronic shops are junk or copies."

these are component parts, when a company like Bose, Advent, JBL, Infinity etc. by tweeters, they simply buy these component parts in bulk; they don't manufacture these things, they simply purchace these components from a supplier and assemble the speaker you buy; it's just like a Dell Computer-Dell doesn't make anything, they assemble parts from different suppliers- you should be able to tell by looking at the tweeter if it is of decent quality, particularly the magnet, if it has a big and powerful magnet, then it will almost certainly sound good when assembled, you can test it when you get home and return it if something is significantly off. (by the way in an earlier post I accidental put JBL in the same class with bad speakers that was a typo, JBLs are not bad but in the states they have sold some product that is iffy-, in other words they have sold good speakers and some very "Panasonic/Fisher" types in the states, the ones i see here all sound pretty good) .

and astral "30% source - 30% amp - 30% speakers"

If you think the amplifier and cd player are of equal importance to the speaker you have no clue. I specifically remember reading an article years ago in one of the Audiophile magazines and there was an article in "Are all Amps the same?" This was a trade magazine-and even they were questioning whether there was an audible difference between a fair-decent quality amplifier and a super hiquality one when hooked up to the same speakers-they basically concluded that the speakers were IT, and the CD player is really hard to tell the difference-there's like an oligopoly in china that makes those lazers that are inside the box, the stands you mentioned are more important than the amp and cd player assuming the amp and cd isn't a cmplete piece of junk. I would say more like 90% speakers and the remaining 10% divided between everything else.

[astral]

I never 'admitted' to never hearing a proper setup, the contrary- I said that I have visited showrooms in which there are some fairly expensive equipment in there and you can listen to them. I live a few minutes from Siam Paragon and I can go anytime and listen to some pretty nice setups anytime.

It is not just a matter of dropping in and listening to a system for a few minutes.

I used to carry my own set of cd's with a variety of music types, when I was really looking, and viewed many combinations

I very much question the ability of the human ear to hear the difference between good and standard cables,

I can on my system.

You keep saying my speakers suck but you haven't heard my speakers.

........and astral "30% source - 30% amp - 30% speakers"

If you think the amplifier and cd player are of equal importance to the speaker you have no clue.

I suggest you try your speakers with a really good source and amp, perhaps Krell, based on that formula.

The formula is not mine by the way, or from a trade mag. I subscribe to HiFi News.

You may find your speakers are in fact better that you think.

Try going to one of those nearby shops and asking them to use your front end on a good amp/speaker

setup. Then ask then to put a top front end on, I am confident you will hear the difference.

I quoted the formula also, to help the OP put his budget into context.

There is no point in spending 40K on speakers if the rest of the system is not up to the job.

It is not an absolute, there are the occasional "bargains" and also high priced "dogs".

these are component parts, when a company like Bose, Advent, JBL, Infinity etc. by tweeters, they simply buy these component parts in bulk; they don't manufacture these things, they simply purchace these components from a supplier and assemble the speaker you buy;

it's just like a Dell Computer-Dell doesn't make anything, they assemble parts from different suppliers

This may be true at the lower end.

Again read the independent reviews and you will see the design effort that goes into getting that best sound from all components of a speaker.

I cannot speak for Dell, but I do know about HP.

Here again at the low end of the market you are right, but not at the high end.

Years of research and development goes into the systems.

http://h71028.www7.hp.com/nonstopcomputing...-0-0-0-121.html

The individual processors are Intel, but the power and quality of the whole

is much greater than the individual parts. We are talking here about systems with

a minimum cost of around $100,000

[Nordlys]

I very much question the ability of the human ear to hear the difference between good and standard cables, and between a wooden cabnet and a pressboard cabinet; my feeling is that whats good about nice cabnets is the way they look, not the way they sound.

I've never really compared the difference the rack makes (but I can easily tell the difference between speaker board and no speaker board) but it's fairly easy for me to tell the difference in cables, I know Benjie would disagree but even digital cable like HDMI. At AV fair in Bangkok just two weeks ago a sales rep from an American premium audio cable manufacturer Nordost has demonstrated the performance of their various cables step by step, beginning with their most affordable cable to their top-of-the-line cable costing over a million baht (ODIN) and second in line half a million Baht Valhalla (both AC, interconnect and speaker cables). The difference was overwhelming. I've spent some 200,000 baht on various audio cables and I've home auditioned most of them before I bought them (and many more I haven't bought). I wouldn't have spent that much money on cables if I couldn't tell the difference. That said, the question of whether you like it or if it's worth your money is another matter altogether. It doesn't make so much sense for me to buy a speaker cable costing close to 1.5 million baht that I've auditioned two weeks ago when my entire system costs less than that. But I'm sure it does to a few.

I'd say everything makes difference. Sometimes I wonder if even the weather might make the difference. I can tell my stereo doesn't sound all that same when I play it, mainly depending upon the quality of the AC mains. I live in a condominium and I can tell when on long holiday like new year and Songkran (when half the residents spend holidays away from condo) the sound quality is significantly improved with less noise contamination in AC mains. That is, even though I use a line conditioner and other power purification device regularly.

Your budget should be divided in a similar fashion 30% source - 30% amp - 30% speakers then

the other 10% for stands and cables

It's funny Neverdie said in another thread that the front end component (CD player, turntable, etc) matters the most while others say 90% of your budget should go into speakers. But I tend to agree with astral. I never intended to follow those rule of thumb when I started upgrading my 150,000 baht stereo to now-over a million baht set up over the span of some 6 - 7 years, starting first with amp (integrated to separate) then CD player and then speakers. I'm still in process of slowly upgrading piece by piece, but when all the component upgrade was finished I realized their cost was almost equally divided in three (separate amp 300K baht, SACD player 300K baht, speakers 280K baht). I never really intended to spend that much when I started the upgrade with the amp, but then I wasn't really happy with the sound yet it never stopped till I replaced them all (with the exception of the speaker cables). The only difference is I spent far more than 10% of the entire cost of the set up on cables, rack, isolation device, power purification devices and other accessories for tweak.

[Benjie]

The 30/30/30/10 speaker/amp/source/cables rule is as applicable today as it was 15 years ago.

pkspeaker the problem is that speaker cabinets are designed with specific volumes/dimensions and ports to partner with specific drivers. That's why it's likely to sound poor when put up against a proper pair of speakers with a cabinet designed specifically for the drivers. On top of this crossovers are generally designed to complement the bass/tweeter pairing, with frequencies that work best with that combination.

Picking up a pair of random woofers/tweeters and shoehorning them into a speaker cabinet is likely to end up with a poor sounding pair of speakers, however you could get lucky and choose exactly the right combination of woofers/tweeters for your cabinet size, however it's highly unlikely.

[chrgrims]

  I think many here have good points. First of all its not hi end audio when you talk about a modified speaker like this. the real question is if the speaker would be a lot better after the mod, which i think its likely to be. thats unless the elements are not of high quality. so thats the first thing we would need to know. i dont have any experience building speakers, so i dont know what kind of elements are available to buy separately. But i do have a lot of experience composing and making music in the most expensive of studios. "hi enders" often talk about the importance of cables etc. Please remember that most of the music that one listens to is made with cheap cables. Thats just one example of the sometimes exaggerated lust for "hi end" things. 

However, dont interpret this as if i dont appreciate hi end sound. I love it. but i also love people that experiment with building speakers etc. and its no doubt that sometimes hi enders use too much money in places that doesnt make any or little difference.

EDIT: just read nordlys' post. what i am writing about cables doesnt really apply to what he says. at that level of hi end, cables surely matter. but most ppl at that level also mostly listen to a very selected number of sources (meaning cds or vinyl that is made in specific very hi end studios). 

[Nordlys]

I don't know about other countries but many high end audiophiles in my country do actually assemble their own speakers, especially the older generations who love horns. Super Tweeter is also becoming something of a norm for many audiophiles, probably more so than sub woofer.

I wouldn't know what grade audio cables they use in recording studios. And it seems so unfathomable if not irrational why changing AC cables at the last 2 meters or so of the current downstream makes so much difference when the power line from power plant, cable from the pole mounted transformer to your house and electrical wire in wall conduit (from circuit breaker) remain untouched. But we all know it does. But regardless how good it is I think it should still be treated as an accessory for tweak and no more than that. The high end set up I've auditioned for Nordost cables demo two weeks ago sounded far better than mine even with Nordost's cheapest cable. In my opinion changing wall outlet to AV grade (or hospital grade) is far more cost effective way to improve sound (and visual) than cables. That said, I find changing interconnect cable from unbalanced (single ended = RCA connector) to balanced (XLR connector) tend to be a big bang for money if your components are designed on balanced circuit.

[powderpuff]

I do agree with you on the fine Hi Fi for music.

Then I suggest you add a stand alone HT processor, no integral amps, to seperate out the 7.1 for films, possibly TV.

Pass the front signal though your fine Hi Fi and have another amp setup for the rear and centre.

That way you get the best of both worlds.

Spot on old chap. Which is why quite a lot of companies make 3 channel amps. To drive the center & rears.

NAD make a wonderful Pre Processor - which is built like Theta - i.e. It uses cards which allows for future upgrades. In the 120,000 baht range. Lexicon is also sold here by DECO2000.

[elkangorito]

I have never seen a transistor in a crossover?

Crossovers are usually passive with capaciitors and inductances and a great deal of care

goes into the design to match with the supplied bass and tweeter to ensure a smooth

transition from one to the other as the frequency changes.

I agree.

As a former radio technician (I don't remember much now), crossover networks are essential for high quality audio. In most cases & as astral said, these things consist of capacitors, inductors (& resistors).

If I could've brought these things with me to Thailand, I would be listening to high quality audio on my 25 year old JVC MOSFET amp (a 'real' Japan Victor Corporation amp in a metal chassis. THD - 0.05%. Made in Japan) together with my English made Wharfedale speakers (also 25 years old).

The next time I have a need for an audio amp, I will build it myself (kit) & it will be a standard MOSFET amp with an isolated power supply. It will be no larger than 60 watts rms per channel (enough to blow out the doors & windows of any apartment). I will build the speakers myself from real wood (not particle board) & will have piezo tweeters. The speaker magnets (mid-range & bass) will be Strontium based material.

I expect to save a truckload of money instead of being ripped off by 'brand name talk'.

[pkspeaker]

One thing I failed to mention when describing my upgraded speaker experiment about the crossover.

What I did was not a home made speaker, although that option is available as many of the same shops that sell the component parts also sell empty cabnets-it's just if you do it that way you have to match the same size base with the open space in the cabnet and do the wiring yourself..

Again what I did was I bought a standard cheap speaker-the type of speaker I bought was just like any of those speakers they would have at a place like tesco lotus, and it sounds the same, it is also similar to alot of the speakers sold in the us at similar department stores, sears, montgomery ward, walmart where ever. Here they have small retailers that have many shapes in sizes of them along with some cheap amps, i'm sure you've seen the crap..

apparently the main thing all these speakers have in common, (including everyone of those mini-systems you see at the tescolotus, the kind with alot of flashing lights and often they come with additional speakers like "surround sound", like 2 'big' speakers with 2 woofers and a tweeter and then 2 small speakers with a midrage and a tweeter, this is the 'delux minisystem') is the tweeters are always these tiny things with a tiny magent..the consumer doesn't really see that from his perspective the tweeters all look the same.

But as far as the transistor that the clerk gave me, I remember now that the old tweeters already had a transistor attached to one of the wires, he gave me new ones because the soldering-it would be easier to use a new transistor, so all i had to do was snip the wires, solder on the new tweeter and transistor and enlarge the hole because the old tweeter was so small.. it maybe that the old speakers were already crossed over even though they were cheap, I remember some of the cheap department store store speakers in the states would state that they had a crossover on the specification sheet.. the reason I think maybe is because they certainly sound crossed over, in other words when you put your ear up-to the tweeters/speakers, it sounds like only high pitched sounds like come out of the tweeters, most of the sound comes out of the 2 woofers; and as I mentioned in my first post-that sound of the woofers greatly improved after I had put in a good quality tweeter and that was what really wowed me about the experiment- is that the tweeters started driving the sound quality of the basses/midrages after the better component was installed; i wasn't expecting that much of an increase in sound quality.

It made me remember of a time like 20 years ago in the US I was in a department store talking to one of the salesmen in the speaker room and he kept referring to the tweeter as a "Driver".. "this one has a really strong dirver...the speakers out side this room don't have drivers" i didn't think much of it at the time but I guess thats why some hifi buffs will refer to the tweeter as a "driver".

[powderpuff]

The NAD dealer at Seacon Square

[astral]

But as far as the transistor that the clerk gave me, I remember now that the old tweeters already had a transistor attached to one of the wires,

Transistors have 3 legs...........

capacitors only two.

I am sure you are talking about capacitors?

Crossovers inside a speaker cabinet are generally passive,

inductors and capacitors. The components define the frequency and slope of the crossover.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_crossover

Or for the more technically minded

http://www.bcae1.com/passxovr.htm

Digital crossovers will use transistors and integrated circuits, but these are usually before the amplifier, for example to select what frequencies go to a subwoofer.