Pollution In Lampang As Well?

[gettristarted]

Hello,

I am looking at running in a half marathon on the 28th February in Lampang. Is the air quality there similar to Chiang Mai?

Cheers

[Priceless]

I'm afraid it's normally quite a bit worse than CM this time of year. No telling what it will be like on the 28^th, though.

/ Priceless

[elektrified]

I was there a week ago and the air was terrible.

[purplehaze]

Best to acclimatize now by smoking 100 cigarettes a day.

[KevinHunt]

Best to acclimatize now by smoking 100 cigarettes a day.

I find it amusing when someone puffing on a ciggy complains about smoke pollution.

Their lungs would already be so damaged, so what difference would it make? You either care about your lungs or you don't. Their argument is something to do with choice, If I remember rightly.

[vagabond48]

I find it amusing when someone puffing on a ciggy complains about smoke pollution.

Their lungs would already be so damaged, so what difference would it make? You either care about your lungs or you don't. Their argument is something to do with choice, If I remember rightly.

Who are you referring to, cause I, as a non smoker who is concerned with air pollution coming from motor vehicles, field burning and cig smoking, would also find that pretty humorous.

I suspect 99.9% of those concerned with bad air quality would not voluntarily inhale cig pollution and then exhale it out to share the same pollution with those around them. Shame on the .1% who do.

[Ulysses G.]

I suspect 99.9% of those concerned with bad air quality would not voluntarily inhale cig pollution

I don't know about that. This will get me in trouble (but what is new?). I have noticed over a long period of time, that many of those who complain loudest about pollution in Chiang Mai go on to write some pretty wacky posts about other things. Many of them seem to have other "issues" than a few weeks of dirty air - once a year - that they should be worrying about.

Now I'm not saying that everyone who is bothered by pollution here is a complete screwball - some people have asthma or are very sensitive or have kids with medical problems - but IMHO a lot of the posters who carry on most about it, just like to moan.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[chiang mai]

It's been an absolutely stunning and wonderfully clear day here in Phuket today, take a deep breath and fill your lungs (sorry, my lungs) with clean fresh air and it feels just so good to be alive and I'm so invigorated by it all.

[KevinHunt]

I find it amusing when someone puffing on a ciggy complains about smoke pollution.

Their lungs would already be so damaged, so what difference would it make? You either care about your lungs or you don't. Their argument is something to do with choice, If I remember rightly.

Who are you referring to, cause I, as a non smoker who is concerned with air pollution coming from motor vehicles, field burning and cig smoking, would also find that pretty humorous.

I suspect 99.9% of those concerned with bad air quality would not voluntarily inhale cig pollution and then exhale it out to share the same pollution with those around them. Shame on the .1% who do.

Who am I reffering to? I know a couple of guys that complain about the pollution and smoke. One in particular is practically a chain smoker, but to be fair(?), he is a bit of a nutter anyway.   Edited February 8, 2010 by KevinHunt

[vagabond48]

I suspect 99.9% of those concerned with bad air quality would not voluntarily inhale cig pollution

I don't know about that. This will get me in trouble (but what is new?). I have noticed over a long period of time, that many of those who complain loudest about pollution in Chiang Mai go on to write some pretty wacky posts about other things. Many of them seem to have other "issues" than a few weeks of dirty air - once a year - that they should be worrying about.

Now I'm not saying that everyone who is bothered by pollution here is a complete screwball - some people have asthma or are very sensitive or have kids with medical problems - but IMHO a lot of the posters who carry on most about it, just like to moan.

Interesting IYHO comment, but forgive my slowness, but what does the above have to do with my comment about cig smoking.

Oh I get it, is this an example of a wacky post about other things?

[Ulysses G.]

vagabond48, you are forgiven.

You see, cigarette smoke is pollution and the smoke from the hills is pollution, but some cigarette smokers like to go on and on about the "other" pollution even though they are already likely killing themselves.

Well, at least Kevin seems to get it.

Who am I reffering to? I know a couple of guys that complain about the pollution and smoke. One in particular is practically a chain smoker, but to be fair(?), he is a bit of a nutter anyway.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[orang37]

... Now I'm not saying that everyone who is bothered by pollution here is a complete screwball - some people have asthma or are very sensitive or have kids with medical problems - but IMHO a lot of the posters who carry on most about it, just like to moan.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun UG,

Seems to us we are talking about three phenomena here :

1. liking to moan : in the sense, we assume : of "carry on," "bitch," or "kvetch," "gripe," "carp," etc., rather than in the more delightful senses of the word "moan" as in to "moan in sexual pleasure," or in the negative sense of "moan" as in "moaning in pain."

2. being bothered by pollution

3. being a "complete screwball" : which is of course very fascinating as terminology because there is a "partial screwballness" implied, in our humble opinions, in the idiom "having a few screws loose." Of course that idiom probably comes from a mechanical domain, and we assume "complete screwball" may have a relation to the game of baseball. We are not sure on the etymology of that, and really should look it up. The fact that "Screwball" was the name of a famous race-horse immortalized in song may come into play here ?

Your diplomatic denial that : "I'm not saying that everyone who is bothered by pollution here is a complete screwball" is a wonderful masterpiece of indirection which is so typically Thai in style that it reminds us of certain headlines appearing almost daily in the Thai English language newspapers.

What's of compelling interest, for us, is : what is the nature of the threshold between incomplete screwballness and complete screwballness. At what point can you say as that old classic rock and roll song said "one toke over the line, Sweet Jesus" ? Did you know that Lawrence Welk actually covered that Brewer and Shipley song :

If we understand your implied hypothesis : it may be you are saying that complete screwballs are characterized by behaviors of complaining : and they show a bias towards a certain flavour of complaint related to pollution ? That "pollution" is a dominant theme in their "wacky posts about other things" ?

We look forward to your helping us out here because, as we spelunk further into the deep caverns of your thought, we forgot to bring with us a thread from Ariadne, to help us remember the way back out.

But, rest assured, Brother UG : in the jungle of wacky posts about other things that makes up TV CM, your own voice is like the mellifluous sound of a rare bird's call.

best, your older, (but never wiser) brothers, ~o:37;

[Ulysses G.]

Thanks much orang37. That means a lot coming from you.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Chiang Mai:

Lampang:

[chiangmaiexpat]

Obviously, UG has lungs of steel, as he keeps pitying those who are bothered by the smog. Before this turns into a philosophical debate about the various grades of screwballness of Chiang Mai expats (which is undisputed anyway), may I suggest that UG moves on to Shen Zhen, China instead. Since the local smog does not present much of a challenge to UG, he might appreciate the rich air of the Pearl River Delta which is produced by a million factories uninhibited by silly emission laws.

Cheers, CMX

[Ulysses G.]

I seem to have a lot of company in the steel lungs department. I barely hear anyone mention any smoke except on Thai Visa and I am talking to people all day long. Most people are commenting on how great the weather is.

The worst pollution that I've ever encountered was in Manilla. That did bother me. Also, Luang Prabang during the burning season is about 20 times worse than Chiang Mai - at least it was when I visited - and that bothered me too.

China is too cold for me, but if the pollution is anything like Manilla, about two weeks holiday would be enough.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[vagabond48]

Here is a couple of examples of people living in denial (IMHO) and then regretting it in the end.

You remember the Malboro man that many of us grew up watching on TV and print advertising. Several of them died of lung cancer.

Below is a short excerpt from here

"To the anti-smoking forces in our society, no irony could be more delicious than noting that the Marlboro Man, the advertising symbol whose Marlboro Man appearance in the "Marlboro Country" series of advertisements was instrumental in establishing Philip Morris' Marlboro brand as the world's best-selling cigarette, died of lung cancer."

and let's not forget Yul Brenner's

he tapped before he died of lung cancer.

So UG and other apologists, keep minimizing the seasonal poor air quality here when comparing it to other far worst places.

Last year, I was in traveling through parts of India for 2 months and yes, the air quality where I spent time was MUCH WORSE than CM.

SO F$cking WHAT!

I felt so sorry for the Indians living there.

Rant over. Breath in, breath out, breath in, breath out, breath in, breath out.

[Ulysses G.]

That is all well and good, but there is very little that we foreigners do it about it anyway. Ranting and raving about it on the internet is not going to stop the traditional burning that is going on in every country in this region and has been for many years.

Even if someone could somehow convince the Thais and local hilltribes to put a stop to it here, smoke drifts in from across the borders. You can be as indignant as you like. It is not going to change anything.

[el jefe]

That is all well and good, but there is very little that we foreigners do it about it anyway. Ranting and raving about it on the internet is not going to stop the traditional burning that is going on in every country in this region and has been for many years.

Even if someone could somehow convince the Thais and local hilltribes to put a stop to it here, smoke drifts in from across the borders. You can be as indignant as you like. It is not going to change anything.

I gotta agree that all the complaining gets us nowhere, but the claims that "it doesn't affect me" are ludicrous. It's the long term affects that are a problem.

And the people who blame the burning on the Lao are the "complete screwballs". Laos has a population of 6 mil, about 10% of Thailand's population. Thailand is one of the world's biggest rice exporters. I don't believe Laos exports any rice at all. What is it they're burning?

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry but you are very wrong. The fact that fires from surrounding countries are contributing to Chiang Mai's problem is beyond dispute. How long have you been here anyway?

I've been in Laos when there were fires everywhere including along side of the roads and the banks of the river. I have no idea what they were burning, but Luang Prabang was covered in a smoke cloud and much worse than Chiang Mai has ever been. Burma also contributes and some people claim that pollution sometimes comes all the way from China.

Somebody needs to do some research.

Thick smoke hung over eastern Burma (Myanmar), Thailand, and Laos on March 9, 2009, when the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) on NASA’s Aqua satellite passed over head and captured this image. Scores of active fires (red outlines) were detected. During the winter dry season, intentional fires for agriculture, brush clearing, and trash disposal are common in Southeast Asia. Intentional fires also get out of control, however, and some of these fires could be accidental forest fires. Although agricultural burning is not necessarily immediately hazardous, it can have a major impact on air quality and human health, climate, and natural resources.http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=37343

Main Causes of Forest Fire in Lao PDR

The main causes of forest fire in Lao PDR are:

Slash-and-burn cultivation practice without firebreak, and

Traditional hunting to drive out animals

It is estimated that 90% of the forest fires originate from slash-and-burn cultivation practice of upland farmers. The degradation caused by fire is repeated year after year. No reliable statistics are available.

http://www.fire.uni-freiburg.de/iffn/country/la/la_1.htm

Edited February 9, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

And the people who blame the burning on the Lao are the "complete screwballs". Laos has a population of 6 mil, about 10% of Thailand's population. Thailand is one of the world's biggest rice exporters. I don't believe Laos exports any rice at all. What is it they're burning?

A land of fire and rice

May 17, 2009 A lodge in the heart of a tribal village gives Julie Miller an authentic glimpse of rural life. Life glides slowly by on the Mekong. A fisherman casts his net from a wobbly, leaky dugout; elderly women, faces shrouded by conical hats, squat in the shallows panning for gold; children dive-bomb off jagged rocks protruding into the caramel flow. Every bend illustrates that old South-East Asian adage: "same same but different" timeless, unspoilt, hypnotically beautiful.

It's the month before the rains begin and the air is thick with humidity and the haze of forest fires but our open-sided longboat provides natural ventilation. It's not until we pull into shore and onto a white-sand beach that my lungs start to convulse in protest at the intensely smoky air.

I have travelled two hours upriver from the city of Luang Prabang to experience the lifestyle of one of Laos's ethnic minorities, at an ecotourism venture called Kamu Lodge. What I hadn't realised was that at this time of year this means being subjected to a questionable farming practice known as slash and burn, whereby villagers torch hillsides to prepare them for sticky-rice cultivation.

Though this technique is effective and widespread, it's derided by environmentalists as destructive and harsh, leaching the soil of nutrients, promoting erosion and, of course, cloaking the Mekong Valley of Laos and northern Thailand in a cloud of smoke for weeks on end. But to the people of Laos, the annual haze is a symbol of productivity of new life associated with the wet season, of sustainability, of ensuring each village has food for the coming year.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/a-land-of-fir...90514-b49l.html

Edited February 9, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[el jefe]

I've been in Laos when there were fires everywhere including along side of the roads and the banks of the river. I have no idea what they were burning, but Luang Prabang was covered in a smoke cloud and much worse than Chiang Mai has ever been. Burma also contributes and some people claim that pollution sometimes comes all the way from China.

That sounds like Chiang Mai almost every day from November to April.

"some people"? That's very authoritative. Some people also claim that because they feel fine today, there is no long term health problems involved with burning rice fields and plastic bags.

Sorry but you are very wrong. The fact that fires from surrounding countries are contributing to Chiang Mai's problem is beyond dispute. How long have you been here anyway?

I haven't been here as long as you , but I've been here enough years to know that blaming other countries is easier than solving your own problems.

Somebody needs to do some research.

UG, you do realize that if you do a google search on pollution in CM, you get links to Thai Visa among other sources. Not everything posted on the internet is fact. The pollution is not going to affect a tourist who spends 5 days of their life in CM. It's the long term affects, which you conveniently ignore. Me? I'm out of here in two weeks.

[Ulysses G.]

'el jefe' post='3330124' date='2010-02-09 22:33:14']And the people who blame the burning on the Lao are the "complete screwballs".

Yeah, like the Sydney Morning Herald is just making this stuff up and the satellite photos of fires all over Laos and Burma - that you just insisted do not exist - are fake. Go back and read your own posts.

There is really no BS-ing your way out of it. Why don't you just be honest enough to admit that, in this case, you did not know what you were talking about?

Edited February 9, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[realthaideal]

Smoke in Lampang too ? Worse ? Smoke from fires in Laos and Burma drifting in over here ? That's it I'm outta here. Looking over this planet and its water and air, the state of the oceans and rivers these days, I"m outta here. Back to my planet.

[venturalaw]

'el jefe' post='3330124' date='2010-02-09 22:33:14']And the people who blame the burning on the Lao are the "complete screwballs".

Yeah, like the Sydney Morning Herald is just making this stuff up and the satellite photos of fires all over Laos and Burma - that you just insisted do not exist - are fake. Go back and read your own posts.

There is really no BS-ing your way out of it. Why don't you just be honest enough to admit that, in this case, you did not know what you were talking about?

UK, some people lack the character to thank those who have taught them something new, and some people are just unable to grasp concepts and therefore choose to name-call. And then some, as in this case, may be exisiting with both challenges.

[venturalaw]

'el jefe' post='3330124' date='2010-02-09 22:33:14']And the people who blame the burning on the Lao are the "complete screwballs".

Yeah, like the Sydney Morning Herald is just making this stuff up and the satellite photos of fires all over Laos and Burma - that you just insisted do not exist - are fake. Go back and read your own posts.

There is really no BS-ing your way out of it. Why don't you just be honest enough to admit that, in this case, you did not know what you were talking about?

UK, some people lack the character to thank those who have taught them something new, and some people are just unable to grasp concepts and therefore choose to name-call. And then some, as in this case, may be exisiting with both challenges.

Sorry UG. That's what happens when one is in a hurry.

[Ulysses G.]

I've been in Laos when there were fires everywhere including along side of the roads and the banks of the river. I have no idea what they were burning, but Luang Prabang was covered in a smoke cloud and much worse than Chiang Mai has ever been.

That sounds like Chiang Mai almost every day from November to April.

November? This is exactly the kind of nutty statement that I am objecting to.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[anonymouse]

That is all well and good, but there is very little that we foreigners do it about it anyway. Ranting and raving about it on the internet is not going to stop the traditional burning that is going on in every country in this region and has been for many years.

Even if someone could somehow convince the Thais and local hilltribes to put a stop to it here, smoke drifts in from across the borders. You can be as indignant as you like. It is not going to change anything.

I gotta agree that all the complaining gets us nowhere, but the claims that "it doesn't affect me" are ludicrous. It's the long term affects that are a problem.

And the people who blame the burning on the Lao are the "complete screwballs". Laos has a population of 6 mil, about 10% of Thailand's population. Thailand is one of the world's biggest rice exporters. I don't believe Laos exports any rice at all. What is it they're burning?

While the fact that Chiang Mai is situated in a valley, too many badly maintained vehicles, the lack of rain in the hot season all conspire to make the pollution in the dry season worse, Thailand's neighbours do make matters a lot lot worse.

Laos doesn't export rice though for domestic use Rice accounts for over 80% of agricultural production.

Swidden farming [burning] - Swidden cultivation was practiced by approximately 1 million farmers in 1990.

source Wikkipedia

Luang Prubang sunset

As for Burma they are the worst country in the region after China, India and Indonesia for crop burning.

a similiar situation happens to Malaysia and Singapore due to burning in Indonesia.

Signed Screwball

[Priceless]

On the sources of air pollution in Chiang Mai

The pollution problem in Chiang Mai is primarily a problem of an extreme peak in March of most years. It might therefore be interesting to look at the amount of fires for this month in the greater region, including parts of Burma (Myanmar) and Laos. The best source of fire information that I have found is the FIRMS Web Fire Mapper produced by the University of Maryland ( http://firefly.geog.umd.edu:8080/firemap/?...=er&l=ad,ct ). Comparing fire maps from March of the latest six years to the Chiang Mai pollution levels for the same months might produce some circumstantial evidence in the case.

CM average PM<10 pollution levels in µg/m³:

2004: 153.9 2005: 99.0 2006: 88.8

Fire maps for the same years:

(The system changes to a grid map when there are too many fires to plot individually.)

CM average PM<10 pollution levels in µg/m³:

2007: 161.7 2008: 83.8 2009:112.9

Fire maps for the same years:

To my eyes there seems to be a rather strong correlation between the number of fires along the borders with Laos and Burma, and the level of PM<10 pollution in Chiang Mai. This obviously does not prove a causal relationship, but it points in that direction.

Incidentally, it is worth noting the consistently very low numbers of fires in the immediate Chiang Mai area.

On the present level of pollution in Chiang Mai

The Thai official standard limit for PM<10 air pollution is 120 µg/m³ (the corresponding USEPA limit is 150 µg/m³). So far this year, the CM pollution level has on only two occasions (14 January and today, 10 February) exceeded half of that limit (i.e. 40% of the USEPA limit), at 62.3 and 66.3 µg/m³ respectively.

These values are in actual fact unseasonally low and would, to my mind, not warrant the amount of complaints currently recently exhibited on ThaiVisa. The average level for January of this year, 41.2 µg/m³, can be compared to the 2000-2010 January average of 62.4 µg/m³. The level for the first ten days of February, 46.3 µg/m³, can be compared to the 2000-2010 average for the full month of February of 74.8 µg/m³. It may also be noted that the February value for CM this year is significantly lower than the values for seven out of the other eight measuring stations in North Thailand (the value for Nan is only slightly higher than the CM value).

WinnieTheKwai has already pointed this out by posting graphs from the PCD website, but it appears that this, for some reason, attracted very little attention.

/ Priceless

Edited February 10, 2010 by Priceless

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

a little bit of a tangent but something I would be curious about.

I am not in the habit of wearing a filtration mask as it would be pussy freak city from where I lived in the US. I go out most days and ride my bicycle for a few hours in the outlying areas of CM.

I notice most of the Thai cyclists and a significant percentage of Thai people on motorbikes wear a filtration mask.

Should everybody be wearing one of these masks to exercise at this time of year or is it just being silly and over cautious?

Please spare me any "I have been here for X years and don't wear a mask" statements.

Any science out there and why do so many Thai people wear them when they don't seem to be necessary now?