Apple Cider Vinegar

[Penkoprod]

I am reading that dandelions are just as good as Apple Cider Vinegar. You can eat the leaves, flowers and roots, and even infuse any part of it to make a drink. Probably doesnt grow well in Thailand, but THIS might well do. Probably tastes a whole lot better than ACV, too

Penkoprod

[cmsally]

The trick with ACV is that its acidic and can damage tooth enamel and cause stomach irritation.

I would recommend taking it with bicarbonate of soda aka baking soda. The base PH of the baking soda cancels the acidic PH of the ACV and if mixed properly can become a neutral 7 ph solution for consumption.

Once the ACV and Baking soda are in the body then very alkalizing to cells, organs, bones etc and beneficial for health.

That sounds like sound advice. A friend of mine took it for a lengthy period of time and ended up needing a lot of dental work.

[tutsiwarrior]

just like with eating a lot of citrus...always rinse out yer mouth immediately after...I use a lot of lime juice to dress salads and steamed veges and always rinse after eating...very acidic, no good fer yer teeth enamel...

[fullwhenempty]

I know a number of people who take ACV daily for cholesterol and high blood pressure. They are convinced of its benefits.

Adding Baking Soda (Bicarbonate of Soda) to the ACV turns the vinegar into a malate, which protects the teeth and makes drinking it a little easier on sensitive stomachs. Have read that it's dangerous to exceed 1 teaspoon of baking soda daily.

According to Wiki:

'Prior to hypoglycemic agents, diabetics used vinegar teas to control their symptoms. Small amounts of vinegar (approximately 20 ml or two tablespoons of domestic vinegar) added to food, or taken along with a meal, have been shown by a number of medical trials to reduce the glycemic index of carbohydrate food for people with and without diabetes. This also has been expressed as lower glycemic index ratings in the region of 30%'

Naturopaths believe when you eat an acid-forming diet the body needs to neutralize the acidity to maintain its PH. Calcium is leeched from the bones, eventually leading to osteoporosis. The main use of these drinks is to alkalyze the body. Don't forget water is also alkalyzing. Your bodies PH is said to be around 7.35. I check my water is around 8 (more alkaline). My borehole water, even after going through an RO/UV filter is only 5, so I don't drink it. The previous owners did and suffered Kidney stones.

The Braggs brand is the most well known brand and if you have read any of the Braggs Books on health, they are an entertaining read. Brits and Aussies may find the American rah-rah style a bit much but this family have inspired millions in America with their infectious enthusiasm.

"An apple a day keeps the doctor away".

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Fullwhenempty.. to refine your idea's a little.

First is the human body maintains a blood PH of 7.35 to 7.45. It must remain in a strict range or death will result. The way the blood maintains that range is by raiding tissues, organs, lymph fluid, cells, bones etc for alkaline reserves. Alkalosis which is too high PH is equally serious but relatively rare. Acidosis and Alkalosis can be defined for both blood and tissue levels.

The bodies tissue PH can get very acidic and there have been cases of sub PH 5 levels. That is obviously not going to be healthful because organs, bones etc can get cleaned out of calcium and other minerals over time and cancers have been proven to thrive in low tissue PH environments (in vitro).

Consuming Apple cider vinegar is beneficial for its Acetic and Malic acid. When its consumed the body converts Malic acid to Malate. As mentioned it takes alkaline reserves to convert it in the form of higher PH sources like organs, tissues, bones etc.

Taking straight baking soda is not recommended because its very high PH and will burn tissues. The trick is to balance the acid and base (alkaline) properties for consumption.

Mixing the two into a balanced PH solution for consumption is perfectly safe and healthful.

The cautions with sodium bicarbonate are that it does have sodium and could cause problems in the larger picture of overall consumption with issues like hypertension and specifically with the cells Sodium Potassium Pump gradient transport system.

Many recommend balancing potassium bicarbonate or other sources of potassium to balance the sodium. A natural source of potassium is organic black strap molassas.

If you have ever tried the little packets called Emergen-C in the US it's a preparation of Vit C, Sodium Bicarb, Potassium Bicarb and various B vitamins and minerals. It's used a lot for people who are sick or about to get sick or for rehydration.

So yes there are some cautions about taking baking soda but when considering why there is a caution then its very easy to mitigate.

There is no one perfect PH value to consume. A person needs to periodically measure their tissue PH with 24 hour urine testing to ascertain their tissue PH and then adjust the PH and quantity of alkalizing supplement to their particular case. PH test strips can be purchased inexpensively from medical supply stores in Thailand.

Solutions over PH 6 (and not exceeding ~7.5) are safe for dental enamel and digestive tissues. I personally find the tang of low 6 PH more appetizing than 7. If your really acidic (tissue acidosis < 6.5 to 6.8) however then a ~7 PH solution will be more healthful for speedy PH restoration. Optimal tissue PH seems to vary but generally over 7.0 to not exceeding about 7.5)

Remember to drink lots of water between any alkalizing remedies and its best to consume them on an empty stomach. Taking them with a meal would dilute the stomach acid which is needed to break down proteins etc.

[fullwhenempty]

If you have ever tried the little packets called Emergen-C in the US it's a preparation of Vit C, Sodium Bicarb, Potassium Bicarb and various B vitamins and minerals. It's used a lot for people who are sick or about to get sick or for rehydration.

I'm always wary of OTC (over the counter) products. This one may be okay but if you just take Vit C for instance, I'm informed most of the Vit C (ascorbic acid) in stores is derived from GM Corn. I also read ascorbic acid is NOT Vitamin C but only one element of it, so is pretty much a waste of money. When I picked up 'Vit C' tabs at Makro recently and tried them it was sweetened with artificial sweetener, which is dangerous (and also made it inedible!). So, I avoid any over the counter preparations since they tend to be either inorganic or synthetic (or both) and adulterated. For pure organic Vit C, I make my own by converting certain fruits into a powder. The Vit C is more concentrated and has other benefits deriving from the peels. You also save on throwing the skins away. Obviously clean them first. Whoever decided to start waxing oranges needs speaking to.

There is no one perfect PH value to consume. A person needs to periodically measure their tissue PH with 24 hour urine testing to ascertain their tissue PH and then adjust the PH and quantity of alkalizing supplement to their particular case. PH test strips can be purchased inexpensively from medical supply stores in Thailand.

I've never met anyone who does this or even knows about it. Might be a useful exercise to eat an alkalyzing meal and see how that affects your PH, then an acid one, and likewise. Or test it when you are angry or stressed and see if your PH is affected. The saying that someone has an 'acid tongue' may also be interesting to check out, by testing salivary PH while they are sniping at their neighbours!

Do you have a link to baking soda 'burning the tissues'? I've never heard of this.

I've read that ACV is alkalyzing but logically I find this hard to understand. How can an acid (ACV) convert to an alkali in the body? I can understand the body drawing on alkali reserves to neutral-ize acidity as a general principle but for it to then become alkaline. How does this occur?

Thanks.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

FWE

Phamaceutical grade Vit C(L Ascorobic acid) can be purchased in Thailand at medical supply houses. It's very pure and high quality. 500 grams for about 500 baht in powder form.

The ingestion solution is not related to the effect on the body. The residual substance has a PH value. It's residual PH is not related to the ingestion solution PH. Residual PH is tested by burning a substance completely in lab equipment. The resulting ash is then mixed with a neutral PH water and then the resulting PH is taken. Additionally there are lists online of tested foods etc and their relative residual PH.

Sodium Bicarbonate is alkaline PH depending on how much liquid it's mixed with.

If your unsure of Sodium Bicarb then add some to a small amount of water and put it on your tongue. Just kidding as it would not be pleasant.

You might want to look up some basic online chemistry instruction and learn about PH..

Happy trails.

[FBN]

Minor correction: Urine test strips will only measure the urine pH; it is not neccessarily a reflection of "tissue" pH levels. Tissue pH can only be measured by an arterial blood sample and is usually done as part of blood gas analyses of patients in ICU; this is not a routine test.

Urine pH levels may fluctuate and is sometimes manipulated medically to help treat urinary tract infections.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

FBN

That's why the 24 hour urine testing is required. I thought if you test the blood then your getting the blood PH... How would that reflect tissue PH?

[FBN]

First: Definition of "tissue" pH that I refer to is the pH at a cellular level. This is usually not possible to measure directly but is the same as arterial blood level; venous blood has a slightly more acidic pH value due to the higher carbon dioxide content.

The body has 2 basic mechanisms for correcting pH imbalance; lungs and kidneys. Generally speaking, measuring urinary pH may reflect a compensation or a corrected status already for a metabolic acidosis or alkalosis and not the primary (tissue) level.

This article: http://www.nda.ox.ac.uk/wfsa/html/u13/u1312_03.htm from the World Federation of Anaesthesiologists gives a fairly straightforward summary of the whole acid/base balance as well as compensatory mechanisms.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

FBN

That's pretty interesting. How far off do you figure a 24 hour urine PH testing would be in error? Any kind of predictable range of deviation?

for me the absolute number is not as important as relative changes and the ability to check at home and for low cost.

How often is person going to want to test their plasma and wait for results? Can't those results also be fluctuating based on factors like recent exercise, hydration, time of day etc?

Tell us more about the plasma test. cost and turnaround time etc.

Thanks for the info

[fullwhenempty]

If your unsure of Sodium Bicarb then add some to a small amount of water and put it on your tongue. Just kidding as it would not be pleasant.

It's not that I'm unsure. I use it a lot. Just asking for your source.

You might want to look up some basic online chemistry instruction and learn about PH..

Dismissed, eh? You sound like my headmaster.

Since I look after a pool, I'm very familiar with PH, thanks. I'm also familiar with the various acid/alkali-forming food tables online. There is usually no mention of the actual chemistry involved. However, two sources explain: (sorry can't post the links since they are on commercial sites)

'In plants, strongly alkaline metal ions are usually combined with weak organic acids There may be a surplus of organic acids not bound to cations, and this will make the food taste acid, as in fruits. However, in the body these free organic acids, as well as those bound to metal ions, are oxidized. In the end, this leaves an alkaline residue. Therefore, we say vegetables and fruits are alkalizing or alkaline-forming.'

From another site...

"The strong acids in our bodies are those that are formed by the degradation of protein. These are sulfuric acid, phosphoric acid and nitric acid. These are strong, like the battery acid in your car. Strong acids are strong compared to weak acids such as vinegar and citrus juices. Weak acids do not ionize (break apart completely) in solution whereas strong acids do. This is why vinegar does not burn holes in your clothes, or dissolve your bones; it does not break apart completely into an acid and a base part, it remains partly a salt. A salt is formed when an acid and a base combine and neutralize one another."

"In fact, vinegar, although an acid when you ingest it, does not stay that way. Weak acids like the acetic acid in vinegar, and the acids in most fruits and especially lemons, contain lots of minerals which are basic, along with their weak acid part. The weak acid part combines with water and is converted into carbonic acid which then breaks apart into carbon dioxide and water. You breathe out the carbon dioxide and pass the water out through your kidneys. The minerals remain behind to replenish deficient minerals so in fact these weak acids in the end, alkalize your body by supplying more minerals to it."

The conclusion then is that the weak acids in fruits (such as Apple Cider Vinegar) are neutralized by water (or the oxygen) while the strong acids from meat proteins are neutralized by alkaline stores.

Which contradicts what you said: 'Consuming Apple cider vinegar is beneficial for its Acetic and Malic acid. When its consumed the body converts Malic acid to Malate. As mentioned it takes alkaline reserves to convert it in the form of higher PH sources like organs, tissues, bones etc.'

If alkaline reserves are already depleted the last thing you want is to deplete them even more.

Being an advanced chemist. You would know that.

BTW. You posted this earlier...

The trick with ACV is that its acidic and can damage tooth enamel and cause stomach irritation.

Do you have a source for the latter statement? My understanding is ACV has a PH of around 3, while stomach acid has a PH around 1. If stomach acid doesn't cause irritation, then I can't see how ACV or lemons or any other acidic fruit can either. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

FWE

Glad your doing some research on your own. I am not a gatekeeper on this subject. Just trying to stimulate others to take care of their health.

I have a job so I don't annotate everything I write about. I am sure I am making some errors because its not my profession. Just an area of interest.

With your advanced training you should have no trouble figuring out what you need.

FBN. Let us know more about this plasma PH testing here in Thailand.

[FBN]

Arterial blood sampling and testing is done only in an ICU setting when the patient is being ventilated or during open heart or spinal surgery when it is also done to monitor Oxygen and Carbon dioxide levels. It is a whole blood sample of arterial blood (not plasma) with Heparine added to prevent any coagulation and sealed to prevent any contact with air. All three parameters are measured by a Bloodgas analyser.

This is not a test available on request but done under and for potentially life threatening conditions only.

Urine pH will fluctuate really within narrow margins and has no correlation to systemic or tissue pH levels as it is only one of the compensatory mechanisms employed in the body to maintain pH.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

FBN

Interesting..

Sure but it's 'one' of the compensatory mechanisms for metabolic PH. In a lot of cases it's going to reflect what is going on in the body. From a clinical standpoint its not perfect diagnostic tool but 24 hour urine testing can be helpful in understanding what is going on. I am not a big fan of collecting urine for 24 hours because I drink a lot of liquid and well you get the picture.

My approach to this is most people become gradually acidic due to aging, diet, decreased respiratory activity etc and in many cases when people are not feeling good then taking alkalizing supplements and decreasing acid forming foods/drinks etc tends to really improve their health. Increasing exercise or rapid breathing also is very helpful.

If your not feeling great then mild/moderate tissue acidosis is a very likely cause.

So anyway if anyone is out there and confused by all this then I hope they will at least experiment or google more to learn about acid/alkaline diets and supplements.

Just by using simple household ingredients like vinegar, lime juice, baking soda then a person can find a lot of health benefit from alkalizing.

IMHO it's one of the real keys to good health.

[FBN]

Perhaps just to clarify also for a wider audience:

Testing pH on a 24h urine sample is influenced by the bacterial action (always present) in the urine over a 24h period (quite significantly). It may also be influenced by the specific gravity of the urine. SG of 1010 is isotonic, in other words the same as tissue fluids. This may give a more "relevant" reading but, in general, pH values in urine are open to so many influences and variables that it is virtually useless as a single parameter on which to make judgements with regards to diet and the manipulation of tissue pH.

If apple cider vinegar makes you feel good, it probably provides your specific body with some needed elements of nutrition; it may not do so for the next person but this is also not a reason to write it off as a potentially healthful substance. It is an organic substance with many complex compounds and trace elements, some known, some unknown. It is not a toxic substance by any means and there is certainly no harm in taking reasonable amounts.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

FBN

That's good to know. I just took various MD's or quasi doctors advice on this. Who wants to collect urine over a whole day and it certainly makes sense it could change due to bacterial growth over time and storage conditions.

Are there any outward diagnostics from a clinical standpoint to ascertain relative metabolic acidosis short of plasma testing? I don't mean for a person who is in really bad shape but more for someone who wants to perform and feel better.

When my muscles get sore I assumed it was due to lactic acid buildup. Professional athletes like cyclists for example take pin prick blood tests during their training to advise on intensity changes.

A lot of endurance coaches seem to believe relative acidosis of muscle tissues greatly affects performance.

The curious thing I find is why do these divergent "alkalizing" supplements like ACV, Green extracts like spirulina, wheat grass, minerals etc seem to have such a following with athletes, alternative health practioners etc?

I personally find a lot of fast health benefit. Perhaps its a totally different mechanism than affecting internal PH states. Maybe just mineral/metal requirements.

Thanks for the insight.

[FBN]

Venturing a bit off topic here (with apologies to the OP), but this is an interesting topic.

If you start to consider lactic acid, the subject of anaerobic energy production comes up. This is the energy source (produced in the absence of Oxygen) that provides the immediate burst of energy and utilised by althletes such as sprinters, weight lifters and even football. This ustilises fat and produces lactic acid in the process. This is indeed what causes muscle "burning" sensations.

Large amounts of lactic acid can potentially also change tissue pH levels.

Aerobic energy production uses mostly carbohydrates (glucagon) specifically and uses Oxygen in the process. This is primarily the energy source used in endurance sports. Less buildup of lactic acid.

The value for professional athletes testing lactic acid levels is probably that it may give an indication of dietary needs for different sports. This is purely measuring a byproduct of energy production and does not also indicate or correlate with systemic pH.

Lactic acid is an acid and would therefore have its own pH (which is the log value of free H ions, hence the lower case "p") but is a bit of an orange to the apple of systemic pH values as measured by an arterial blood sample. An excess of lactic acid can lead to changes in pH levels as said before but does not necessarily do so.

The spirulinas, wheat grass etc are also powerful antioxidants and this may be the most desirable effect of those.

Must admit, venturing a bit beyond my area of expertise, so open for correction by the professional athletes out there!

[fullwhenempty]

FWE

I am sure I am making some errors because its not my profession.

Likewise yet considering the depth of your interest and knowledge you would do well if it was. Most practitioners I know have cobbled together a number of different methodologies, not necessarily taught in naturopathic universities like Bastyr. I have one Swiss ex-Dr friend who did not renew his medical licence since he found those using alternative methods were getting better results than he was. At least so he claimed. He's now passionate about them and working to spread the word.

When it comes to testing urine ph, I do this every few days when fasting. I want to check the body is shedding acid wastes, so an acidic reading AFAIK is a positive sign. The trend is supposed to be important, although I haven't tracked it enough to tell and just test out of curiosity. Perhaps next time. A golfer I know is obsessed with his 'acid in the muscles' and knows that after he juice fasts he can swing the club more freely. Most juice fasts are alkalyzing so who's to say he isn't correct? He is a regular detoxer after (he states) it cured his asthma many years ago.

ACV, I bracket into the 'fermented foods' area. Most cultures have some kind of fermented foods in their diet ranging from Saurkraut to that smelly fishy stuff the Thais eat. 'Ba-la'?