Red Shirt Leaders Get Sudden Fund Boost

[mca]

UPDATE

Govt Spokesman: Grounds about Unusual Funds into Thailand

BANGKOK: -- Acting Government Spokesman Panitan Watanayagorn revealed there are grounds to believe three groups are conducting unusual monetary transfers into Thailand. He assured the authorities are on top of the issue.

Speculations are abound the money came from fugitive former PM Thaksin Shinawatra, aiming to wreak havoc in Thailand before the verdict on his 76 billion baht asset seizure case comes out on February 26. However, Thaksin has denied any involvement via his twitter page today and so has the red-shirt group.

-- Tan Network 2010-02-10

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Yet on the Thai Asean News Network they reported that Deputy PM SuthepThaugsaban said he had received no reports of money being transferred.

[thaibkk]

maybe the governement can bride the pilots when taxi(n) goes to cambodia and fake and emergency landing in bkk...

[steveromagnino]

Wow, what a huge diatribe against a female dominated, citizen movement to regain some semblance of Democracy. To restore Electoral Democracy where all citizens have equal access to the voting booth, and where all can expect the political process to represent their interests.

All political movements are funded. Fund raising is critical. The local Red Shirt Democracy Movement (RSDM) is also heavily engaged on a small scale in fundraising to pay for costs of rallies, transport to BKK, food, etc. The one I am familiar with just raffled off a gold necklace, and earned 10,000 baht beyond cost. The National level needs to do even more.

.....this is in fact a citizens movement to restore Democracy......

.....This Democracy Movement is huge, growing and grassroots oriented. And with its' 80% female membership to be referred to as "Violence prone" is such a broad-stroke smear as to be incomprehensible. Unbelievable that a Govt. would demonize such a huge citizen movement and expect a 'future' With stuff like this coming out of them, I can fully understand why they had better avoid an election at all costs.

......The minority enemies of this movement always fall back on the Songkran thing........

One last thing. I have mentioned frequently now, the 80% female make-up of this movement. I dont know why that is, but also am convinced that it is a large contributor to the MO of the RSDM. One doesn't need to look further than the military-type encampments of the PAD during their heyday, over against the open air, carnival type of RSDM rally's, where even with 100,000 in attendance, no security guards are evident, other than the ones around the leaders. Farangs are idolized at these events as being those who understand and appreciate Democratic principles.

I mostly agree on the sentiment. I just don't see that this so called democracy movement is anything other than one man's attempt to get out of jail free. It is growing a life of its own, but it isn't there yet.

1. If this is a citizen's movement for DEMOCRACY then obviously the fate of only 1 man is meaningless in the face of the huge importance of 1 person 1 vote. PLEASE CONFIRM I WILL BE WELCOMED TO A RED SHIRT/DEMOCRACY RALLY WITH A THAKSIN SHOULD GO TO JAIL FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE T SHIRT. Obviously, I am very pro democracy, and spend a lot of time talking to people of the importance of voting and being informed.....I simply feel that a person I am very confident stole money from the country should go to jail, and that should start with a man who stole a lot - Thaksin.

2. The reality of funding a mob - yellow shirts and red shirts are funded. There is a party mechanism behind them and the big money needed is far more than 10,000b. To arrange a mob to come to Bangkok with some paid, some not paid, costs millions and millions. Using a stadium, the rental fees for the stadium are millions. Running TV stations, radio etc - there are already have records of senior red shirters admitting in public to being paid (in one case, 40mb to basically, in his words, create PR for the red shirt movement - said person currently person non grata in Thailand due to bad mouthing against the law). Puea Thai, the political side of the red shirts, would seem to run EXACTLY like every other political party by buying and paying potential candidates including faction leaders and personable faces - please explain do you honestly think that Chavalit, Chalerm et al are doin all this work for free? Because I haven't seen either of them raffling gold necklases and we know what sort of politicians they are.

As for your claim of 80% female participation - one would expect more than 50% female participation in a peaceful rally, given that they make up more than half the population at 30 years + and there is NO EVIDENCE to suggest that the peaceful rallies of the PAD were any different. LOTS AND LOTS OF WOMEN AT BOTH. As for a party like atmosphere, well that wasn't quite what I saw at some of the rallies on TV, but certainly rallies and protests here tend to be fun and enjoyable as long as there aren't a rival side coming in to fight. As occurred for the yellow shirts with the red shirts attacking them in the evenings, as I am sure you know. Or as occurs when red shirts start beating up a suspected yellow shirt (refer to workers from the charitable rescue foundations - it happens).

I don't really believe 80% though, and so expect you can back this up with facts, or will retract or amend your language to be 'a majority of women'.

For the few non peaceful activities from the red shirts, such as Pattaya, Bangkok, Chiang Mai, attacks on the yellow shirts in 2008 - it would not surprise me to see that there are a majority of men at these.

As for claims of media bias, it is certainly ironic that the cover boy for the red shirts, Thaksin, was vilified by the media worldwide for putting a gag on the Thai media via ownerships, advertising budget control and law suits. And now when the coverage is (IMHO of course) fairly fair with the red shirts even having their own TV, radio etc (admittedly not exactly the finest of entertainment but there nevertheless for those who like that sort of thing) and the mass media covering rallies and activities despite the red shirts having previously attacked (physically) members of the media for giving perceived biased coverage in a fairly fair way...... he is now pushing to claim that there isn't a free press for him to get coverage. what a crock.

If these 'pro democracy' peaceful demonstrators are really trying to change the will of Thai people to embrace true democracy, and have this huge majority you claim, how come they cannot get even close to 50% of the population participating? A number of their activities have been dead in the water; the only big ones are in PT homelands. Way more than the yellow shirts, true, but life isn't all red and yellow as you should by now have realised (despite the red shirt propoganda). My feeling is the majority of democracy loving Thais despise both groups.

And if these 'pro democracy' peaceful demonstrators are really trying to change the will of Thai people to embrace true democracy, why do we see professionally made english language signage at their rallies conveniently targeting the foreign media directly, with likely 50% of the voting public in Thailand preferring to read Thai language, and far more than 50% of the red shirt attendees more likely to write in Thai than in english adeptly?

And if these 'pro democracy' peaceful demonstrators are really trying to change the will of Thai people to embrace true democracy, why do we see an escalation of activity solely and directly relating to a (in the view of democracy long term) fairly unimportant court case where on the balance of evidence, a decision should be given whether non-elected caretaker officials have a duty of care to the people they serve, or should they just be given a free ride?

And if these 'pro democracy' peaceful demonstrators are really trying to change the will of Thai people to embrace true democracy, why do we not see a push for true justice with regards to Alpine Golf Course; TAT Governor Juthamas's prosecution? Why is this 'democracy' movement so seemingly biased that anything relating to TRT is great, anything relating to people who don't like TRT the devil?

I've seen democracy. I've seen the red shirts. I've spent time with some of the most senior people in the red shirt movement. I've had a fairly non peaceful exchange with 2 of the red shirts, and enjoyed their occupation of my road in a somewhat non peaceful manner back in April. I just cannot see how anyone could look to the moronic leaders of this movement and consider this to be anything other than a nicely paid jaunt for those leaders using a convicted runaway's money. Which is why I feel bad, because we DO need democracy; these leaders though? That's like asking Hun Sen to be a poster boy for democracy.

But to think that this group's agenda has anything related to democracy? I feel that that your desires are the right ones - equal rights to vote, to choose. But then...the letter of the law should be equal also, and I just don't see this coming from the red shirt leaders. I do however, feel that there is perhaps some groundswell for democracy, which may morph into something stemming from the reds and yellows for the future.

I hope so.

But democracy takes time, and so this sudden urge to get everything settled by the randomly chosen date of 26 Feb? It seems very undemocratic to lean on the judiciary to influence their decision using a mob. We've been down this road before when Thaksin intimidated the judges to rule that his honest mistake of lying about his assets was ok. Should we give him another 6+ free rides on the scams he has alledgedly run using the country's money, in the name of 'democracy'?

I think not.

Edited February 10, 2010 by steveromagnino

[Caliguy]

The nation just reported that the funds are coming from the middle east.........

[animatic]

Well this is popping up in yellow-friendly news outlets everywhere.

Wouldn't be part of the Governments publicly funded "media blitz" they've been warning about now, would it?

Why wouldnt you expect all sides to have a media blitz of propaganda, lies, damned lies, statistics, misinforamtion and disinformation?...

Question everything you hear form all sides would be the way ahead.

Yes this is the way to go.

I question myself regularly and I am not even schizophrenic.

It's called updating your own analysis of what you believe you know.

As time goes on the only ones left behind are those who stop updating

their knowledge sets, and stand pat with what they knew...even if the world moves on.

[jdinasia]

Well this is popping up in yellow-friendly news outlets everywhere.

Wouldn't be part of the Governments publicly funded "media blitz" they've been warning about now, would it?

A government official makes a statement regarding possibly illegal funding for the reds .... you would think it would be popping up in EVERY news outlet regardless of their editorial policy.

[brahmburgers]

UPDATE: Govt Spokesman: Grounds about Unusual Funds into Thailand BANGKOK: However, Thaksin has denied any involvement via his twitter page today and so has the red-shirt group.

-- Tan Network 2010-02-10

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

The mention that, "....Thaksin has denied any involvement...." is an indicator that he is involved. He's proven to be such a habitual liar for the past 8 years, that you're more likely to get the truth if you invert what he says, than accept it at face value.

If he says, "I went swimming yesterday," you can bet your yellow ducky life raft that he didn't - that's how twisted his credence has become.

[animatic]

Steve M great points as usual.

I note also that the Shinawatra clan is now trying to

Gag the Court and Media about the assets case.

Classic Thaksin,

What the masses don't know about

they can't think about,

and his ongoing PR message

is the only one they hear.

Edited February 10, 2010 by animatic

[BSJ]

When asked if the money came from the Middle East and somewhere in Asia, the spokesman said that the reporter was right about the sources. "Part of the money was transferred from financiers in the country and some were smuggled through normal channels," he said, adding that security agencies were investigating the money transfers.

I see other posters were mystified and intrigued with the term "smuggled through normal channels". In a Monty Python sort of way it's amusingly funny but strange!

[webfact]

UPDATE

PM orders probe of unusual overseas money transfers

BANGKOK: -- (TNA) - Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on Wednesday said he has ordered a probe after information obtained indicating irregular money transfers from overseas amid intelligence reports the political campaign against his government is likely to intensify this month.

Mr Abhisit refused to elaborate about the money trail or its recipients, pending investigation.

The government has no reason to slander anyone, he said.

The premier also affirmed that the government can maintain order and will consider a special security law if needed.

The prime minister commented after acting government spokesperson Panitan Wattanayakorn said the information was based on the claim of Senator Somchai Sawaengkarn and tips from members of the public who reported to the government about the unusual transfer of funds from abroad to key anti-government activists.

Meanwhile, Jatuporn Prompan, key leader of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), rejected Dr Panitan's remarks and demanded the spokesman to disclose the evidence to back his claim.

The Red Shirt leader said that the government can verify the fund transfer route via the Bank of Thailand and if the money was smuggled via Suvarnabhumi Airport, CTX bomb scanners can detect it.

Mr Jatuporn also urged Dr Panitan to resign from the government spokesman post if he can not show any evidence of such fund transfers.

Convicted ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra challenged the government to prove its claim in his message sent to the social networking website Twitter.

"The government said that a huge sum of money both domestic and international have been transferred to bank accounts of the Red Shirt leaders. Why doesn't the government show the evidence?" he asked.

Dr Panitan, however, said the government’s information is credible and that irregular money tranfers occurred between the end of last year until recently and that partly might be attributed to the global economic recovery which has attracted more investors.

However, he said security agencies are now cooperating with the financial institutions to verify the money trail and the recipients, adding that fund transfers from Asia and the Middle East have been increasing considerably.

The spokesman said that he has yet single out any group or any person in particular as recipient(s) of the money and the government has not put the blame on anyone.

Mr Panitan added that he has forwarded the information on the unusual inflow of overseas fund to Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban who oversees national security.

The deputy premier Suthep asserted that security-concerned agencies are duty-bound to monitor any person who is likely to cause chaos or violence and bring them to legal prosecution. (TNA)

-- TNA 2010-02-10

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[PoorSucker]

OK, for the latest rumour. (Thaivisa Special)

Thaksin has big loans on security of the seized money.

The pressure comes now from the No1 creditor, Hun Sen.

[h90]

OK, for the latest rumour. (Thaivisa Special)

Thaksin has big loans on security of the seized money.

The pressure comes now from the No1 creditor, Hun Sen.

Before were rumors that he has loans from Gazprom, which is interested in the oil+gas in disputed sea area with cambodia

[webfact]

PRO-THAKSIN RALLY

Govt continues to check red-shirt funds rumour

Published on February 11, 2010

BANGKOK: -- The government is checking for a flow of funds allegedly destined to finance the violence-prone red shirts, but there has been no confirmation of any transfers so far, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said yesterday.

"The government is determined to enforce the law strictly against any groups planning to stir up violence," he said.

Suthep said riot forces - soldiers, policemen and civilian personnel - would not allow an eruption of violence and that instigators of any mayhem would be penalised as traitors.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said the government was not accusing anyone in particular over alleged funds to finance red-shirt rallies, but information suggested the reports were true.

"There is no reason to make false accusations. But officials are checking the details to confirm this" and working to verify the source and purpose of any funds, he said.

He said judging from the present situation, the government did not need to impose the Internal Security Act. He expressed confidence his administration could lead the country out of possible turmoil and called on the public to pass on any useful information to maintain peace and security.

Red-shirt leader Jatuporn Promphan yesterday denied ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra had moved Bt300 million into the bank accounts of the core red-shirt leaders.

The allegation was fabricated by the authorities, Jatuporn said, challenging acting Government Spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn to show evidence of a financial link between Thaksin and the red-shirt leaders.

Red-shirt supporter Maj-General Khattiya "Seh Daeng" Sawasdipol dismissed speculation that retired General Panlop Pinmanee carried a large amount of cash into the country last week after the two returned from visiting the fugitive ex-premier in Dubai. Khattiya said he and Panlop underwent a thorough check by customs officials on arrival at the airport.

Pirat Sawamiwat, an aide to Pheu Thai Party chairman Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, said the government was spreading rumours that Thaksin was financing the red shirts, in order to create upheaval.

"The government is trying to smear its opponents, and it's not true Chavalit is pocketing any money from Thaksin," Pirat said.

Pirat said he doubted whether Thaksin was now in a position to finance the red shirts, since he appeared to be not as wealthy as he once was.

He said the funds rumour was cooked up to smear Chavalit and the red shirts. These rumours went that Chavalit had siphoned funds from Thaksin that had been earmarked for a retired general who acted as a coordinator for the red shirts, in order to plan for a showdown with the government.

Acting Anti-Money Laundering Office secretary-general Sihanart Prayoonrat said the AMLO was also ready to check for any movement of funds.

He believes the transfers suggested by Panitan were probably to people not widely known.

Department of Special Investigation (DSI) director-general Tharit Pengdit said the government had not asked the department to examine the fund transfers.

However, he will assign officials to investigate the reports, and if they prove true, the DSI can take action on its own.

-- The Nation 2010-02-11

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[webfact]

one post deleted.

Reason: breach of forum rule

30) Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes, added emoticons, or altered wording.

[hammered]

Funny how Jatuporn is th eone denying Chavalit trousered any Thaksin money when Jatuporn was one of the very people who before songkhran last year was accused of trousering Thaksin money and doing nothing for the cause by red shirts on the street who wanted to move the demonstartions around.

[webfact]

UPDATE

'Businessman S' behind suspicious funds for red shirts?

BANGKOK: -- Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thuagsuban on Thursday said he could not confirm or deny the allegation that a businessman known by the initial S was the recipient of suspicious funds channelling from abroad to the violence-prone red shirts.

Suthep said he would have to wait for checks by authorities concerned before commenting on the issue.

"But I can say this - the government has no reason to fabricate the story against the red shirts," he said.

-- The Nation 2010-02-11

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[ChiangMaiFun]

Wow, what a huge diatribe against a female dominated, citizen movement to regain some semblance of Democracy. To restore Electoral Democracy where all citizens have equal access to the voting booth, and where all can expect the political process to represent their interests.

All political movements are funded. Fund raising is critical. The local Red Shirt Democracy Movement (RSDM) is also heavily engaged on a small scale in fundraising to pay for costs of rallies, transport to BKK, food, etc. The one I am familiar with just raffled off a gold necklace, and earned 10,000 baht beyond cost. The National level needs to do even more.

.....this is in fact a citizens movement to restore Democracy......

.....This Democracy Movement is huge, growing and grassroots oriented. And with its' 80% female membership to be referred to as "Violence prone" is such a broad-stroke smear as to be incomprehensible. Unbelievable that a Govt. would demonize such a huge citizen movement and expect a 'future' With stuff like this coming out of them, I can fully understand why they had better avoid an election at all costs.

......The minority enemies of this movement always fall back on the Songkran thing........

One last thing. I have mentioned frequently now, the 80% female make-up of this movement. I dont know why that is, but also am convinced that it is a large contributor to the MO of the RSDM. One doesn't need to look further than the military-type encampments of the PAD during their heyday, over against the open air, carnival type of RSDM rally's, where even with 100,000 in attendance, no security guards are evident, other than the ones around the leaders. Farangs are idolized at these events as being those who understand and appreciate Democratic principles.

I mostly agree on the sentiment. I just don't see that this so called democracy movement is anything other than one man's attempt to get out of jail free. It is growing a life of its own, but it isn't there yet.

1. If this is a citizen's movement for DEMOCRACY then obviously the fate of only 1 man is meaningless in the face of the huge importance of 1 person 1 vote. PLEASE CONFIRM I WILL BE WELCOMED TO A RED SHIRT/DEMOCRACY RALLY WITH A THAKSIN SHOULD GO TO JAIL FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE T SHIRT. Obviously, I am very pro democracy, and spend a lot of time talking to people of the importance of voting and being informed.....I simply feel that a person I am very confident stole money from the country should go to jail, and that should start with a man who stole a lot - Thaksin.

2. The reality of funding a mob - yellow shirts and red shirts are funded. There is a party mechanism behind them and the big money needed is far more than 10,000b. To arrange a mob to come to Bangkok with some paid, some not paid, costs millions and millions. Using a stadium, the rental fees for the stadium are millions. Running TV stations, radio etc - there are already have records of senior red shirters admitting in public to being paid (in one case, 40mb to basically, in his words, create PR for the red shirt movement - said person currently person non grata in Thailand due to bad mouthing against the law). Puea Thai, the political side of the red shirts, would seem to run EXACTLY like every other political party by buying and paying potential candidates including faction leaders and personable faces - please explain do you honestly think that Chavalit, Chalerm et al are doin all this work for free? Because I haven't seen either of them raffling gold necklases and we know what sort of politicians they are.

As for your claim of 80% female participation - one would expect more than 50% female participation in a peaceful rally, given that they make up more than half the population at 30 years + and there is NO EVIDENCE to suggest that the peaceful rallies of the PAD were any different. LOTS AND LOTS OF WOMEN AT BOTH. As for a party like atmosphere, well that wasn't quite what I saw at some of the rallies on TV, but certainly rallies and protests here tend to be fun and enjoyable as long as there aren't a rival side coming in to fight. As occurred for the yellow shirts with the red shirts attacking them in the evenings, as I am sure you know. Or as occurs when red shirts start beating up a suspected yellow shirt (refer to workers from the charitable rescue foundations - it happens).

I don't really believe 80% though, and so expect you can back this up with facts, or will retract or amend your language to be 'a majority of women'.

For the few non peaceful activities from the red shirts, such as Pattaya, Bangkok, Chiang Mai, attacks on the yellow shirts in 2008 - it would not surprise me to see that there are a majority of men at these.

As for claims of media bias, it is certainly ironic that the cover boy for the red shirts, Thaksin, was vilified by the media worldwide for putting a gag on the Thai media via ownerships, advertising budget control and law suits. And now when the coverage is (IMHO of course) fairly fair with the red shirts even having their own TV, radio etc (admittedly not exactly the finest of entertainment but there nevertheless for those who like that sort of thing) and the mass media covering rallies and activities despite the red shirts having previously attacked (physically) members of the media for giving perceived biased coverage in a fairly fair way...... he is now pushing to claim that there isn't a free press for him to get coverage. what a crock.

If these 'pro democracy' peaceful demonstrators are really trying to change the will of Thai people to embrace true democracy, and have this huge majority you claim, how come they cannot get even close to 50% of the population participating? A number of their activities have been dead in the water; the only big ones are in PT homelands. Way more than the yellow shirts, true, but life isn't all red and yellow as you should by now have realised (despite the red shirt propoganda). My feeling is the majority of democracy loving Thais despise both groups.

And if these 'pro democracy' peaceful demonstrators are really trying to change the will of Thai people to embrace true democracy, why do we see professionally made english language signage at their rallies conveniently targeting the foreign media directly, with likely 50% of the voting public in Thailand preferring to read Thai language, and far more than 50% of the red shirt attendees more likely to write in Thai than in english adeptly?

And if these 'pro democracy' peaceful demonstrators are really trying to change the will of Thai people to embrace true democracy, why do we see an escalation of activity solely and directly relating to a (in the view of democracy long term) fairly unimportant court case where on the balance of evidence, a decision should be given whether non-elected caretaker officials have a duty of care to the people they serve, or should they just be given a free ride?

And if these 'pro democracy' peaceful demonstrators are really trying to change the will of Thai people to embrace true democracy, why do we not see a push for true justice with regards to Alpine Golf Course; TAT Governor Juthamas's prosecution? Why is this 'democracy' movement so seemingly biased that anything relating to TRT is great, anything relating to people who don't like TRT the devil?

I've seen democracy. I've seen the red shirts. I've spent time with some of the most senior people in the red shirt movement. I've had a fairly non peaceful exchange with 2 of the red shirts, and enjoyed their occupation of my road in a somewhat non peaceful manner back in April. I just cannot see how anyone could look to the moronic leaders of this movement and consider this to be anything other than a nicely paid jaunt for those leaders using a convicted runaway's money. Which is why I feel bad, because we DO need democracy; these leaders though? That's like asking Hun Sen to be a poster boy for democracy.

But to think that this group's agenda has anything related to democracy? I feel that that your desires are the right ones - equal rights to vote, to choose. But then...the letter of the law should be equal also, and I just don't see this coming from the red shirt leaders. I do however, feel that there is perhaps some groundswell for democracy, which may morph into something stemming from the reds and yellows for the future.

I hope so.

But democracy takes time, and so this sudden urge to get everything settled by the randomly chosen date of 26 Feb? It seems very undemocratic to lean on the judiciary to influence their decision using a mob. We've been down this road before when Thaksin intimidated the judges to rule that his honest mistake of lying about his assets was ok. Should we give him another 6+ free rides on the scams he has alledgedly run using the country's money, in the name of 'democracy'?

I think not.

Of course you fail to mention the moronic yellow shirts who occupied the airport much as the reds who occupied your road? Thailand is a developing Nation and true democracy is decades off.

[Ricardo]

Wow, what a huge diatribe against a female dominated, citizen movement to regain some semblance of Democracy. To restore Electoral Democracy where all citizens have equal access to the voting booth, and where all can expect the political process to represent their interests.

Excuse me, but you seem to claim that right now, not all citizens can vote ? I must be misunderstanding you. Could you please elaborate upon this, and give some evidence for it ?

and a deafening hush follows ...

[steveromagnino]

Of course you fail to mention the moronic yellow shirts who occupied the airport much as the reds who occupied your road? Thailand is a developing Nation and true democracy is decades off.

suggest you read the topic - here we are talking red shirt funding and I am responding directly to claims of fund raising; the red shirts being the beacon of democracy; the 80% women participation and media bias.

If you wish for me to rail against airport occupation, then I shall do so.

As I have said countless times:

yellow shirts = lawless minority

red shirts = lawless minority (a little more violent with a proven track record of some pretty severe beatdowns broadcast live around the world, but some smart people in the mix as well)

The rest of us = MAJORITY

Some of the rest of us (not me) would love Thaksin to return, but hate the red shirts.

Some of the rest of us (me) dislike both the red shirts and the yellow shirts and want true democracy, but see that it is impossible to support either of these groups, as, let's face it, both groups are really two sides of a coin and the coin's face isn't democracy, it's a square face. A square coin, perhaps, would be more relevant. Democracy is perhaps a slightly growing roll in both camps (and the yellow shirts within themselves don't agree any more than the red shirts agree within themselves as to what they are trying to acheive in this respect - the only solid platform is relating to Thaksin - the whole convoluted we don't like the people unelected leaning on the way in which the country runs is merely a way to get to let's get rid of a 5 year ban and drop all charges - it isn't rocket science - is the red shirt angle; Thaksin is the devil and possibly sleeping with various young starlets is about the content of the yellow shirts at the moment).

I don't doubt for a second that Thaksin is guilty, by the way, based on the evidence I've seen and heard. I've been close enough to see how things worked.

I suppose my love for democracy hopes that this is the first of a series of cases where scam artists who have STOLEN MY MONEY (I pay a bit more tax than most) are punished, and thus decent officials will start running the country, because we need them. Big time.

My love of democracy is perhaps a little less militant and biased than some.

But I accept France is still working on theirs after what, 300 years? So we are early days yet.

[Steve2UK]

<snip>

My love of democracy is perhaps a little less militant and biased than some.

But I accept France is still working on theirs after what, 300 years? So we are early days yet.

You're in exalted company, SR. Attributed to Zhou Enlai in the 1960s (and to Mao) about the impact of the 1789 French Revolution: "It's too early to tell". But then, I have similar feelings about Magna Carta......

[ChiangMaiFun]

Of course you fail to mention the moronic yellow shirts who occupied the airport much as the reds who occupied your road? Thailand is a developing Nation and true democracy is decades off.

suggest you read the topic - here we are talking red shirt funding and I am responding directly to claims of fund raising; the red shirts being the beacon of democracy; the 80% women participation and media bias.

If you wish for me to rail against airport occupation, then I shall do so.

As I have said countless times:

yellow shirts = lawless minority

red shirts = lawless minority (a little more violent with a proven track record of some pretty severe beatdowns broadcast live around the world, but some smart people in the mix as well)

The rest of us = MAJORITY

Some of the rest of us (not me) would love Thaksin to return, but hate the red shirts.

Some of the rest of us (me) dislike both the red shirts and the yellow shirts and want true democracy, but see that it is impossible to support either of these groups, as, let's face it, both groups are really two sides of a coin and the coin's face isn't democracy, it's a square face. A square coin, perhaps, would be more relevant. Democracy is perhaps a slightly growing roll in both camps (and the yellow shirts within themselves don't agree any more than the red shirts agree within themselves as to what they are trying to acheive in this respect - the only solid platform is relating to Thaksin - the whole convoluted we don't like the people unelected leaning on the way in which the country runs is merely a way to get to let's get rid of a 5 year ban and drop all charges - it isn't rocket science - is the red shirt angle; Thaksin is the devil and possibly sleeping with various young starlets is about the content of the yellow shirts at the moment).

I don't doubt for a second that Thaksin is guilty, by the way, based on the evidence I've seen and heard. I've been close enough to see how things worked.

I suppose my love for democracy hopes that this is the first of a series of cases where scam artists who have STOLEN MY MONEY (I pay a bit more tax than most) are punished, and thus decent officials will start running the country, because we need them. Big time.

My love of democracy is perhaps a little less militant and biased than some.

But I accept France is still working on theirs after what, 300 years? So we are early days yet.

excuse me... you were the one who raised the red shirts occupying your road... anyway I agree with some of what you have said actually - there are bad on both sides.

[jdinasia]

Imagine ... mentioning the red shirts in a thread about the red shirts! The nerve!

[ChiangMaiFun]

Imagine ... mentioning the red shirts in a thread about the red shirts! The nerve!

context... now go back to sleep

[animatic]

Wow, what a huge diatribe against a female dominated, citizen movement to regain some semblance of Democracy. To restore Electoral Democracy where all citizens have equal access to the voting booth, and where all can expect the political process to represent their interests.

Excuse me, but you seem to claim that right now, not all citizens can vote ? I must be misunderstanding you. Could you please elaborate upon this, and give some evidence for it ?

and a deafening hush follows ...

Well he is partly right, but not in the sense he means.

The very young are not allowed to vote even if born

and raised here by Thai citizens with full voting rights.

Yep some people are denied the vote... granted they are

too young and in many case too short to see over the voting booth

and can't write... or walk.

No matter they can't vote.

Of course with democracy comes the tyranny of the majority

50.0000001% of the people can be represented by the government.

But less than that and it's 'whom ever they voted for making

an agreement to work together with other vote getters,

that then determines which voters get more than the magical 50.00000001 of representation.

It is NEVER "All Voters" who are represented as they ideally choose to be.

It just never happens in that '100% voters get their perfect choice in a perfect ideal world...'

because that never has existed nor ever will.

Some places get 99% of votes counted for the winner,

like where no one runs against them

or Venezuela of Iran. Why not move there?

Edited February 11, 2010 by animatic

[cdnvic]

some nonsense was deleted

[phupaman]

Hi All.

I happen to believe that all the people who voted for the Democrats are being fairly represented by the Dem party in parliament.

Can anyone tell me what any members of Thaksin's party has done or even tried to do for the people who voted for them?.

Their number 1 priority has always been, Change the Constitution and forgive our leader, Not a care at all for all the Yai &Ta in Isaan who frequently were hungry hungry under TRT PPP & PT, Thanks to the Democrat party they all get a small pension 500 BT per month, Not a lot I know but 500 BT more than they ever got under Thaksins leadership.

Given the chance I think the Dems will improve on this amongst a host of other needs.

phupaman

[rainman]

How about the Democrats investigate themselves to find out where the hundreds of millions of Baht in illegal donations came from in 1995? Which is the reason they're under investigation by the EC right now and could face dissolution.

[rainman]

Hi All.

I happen to believe that all the people who voted for the Democrats are being fairly represented by the Dem party in parliament.

Can anyone tell me what any members of Thaksin's party has done or even tried to do for the people who voted for them?.

Their number 1 priority has always been, Change the Constitution and forgive our leader, Not a care at all for all the Yai &Ta in Isaan who frequently were hungry hungry under TRT PPP & PT, Thanks to the Democrat party they all get a small pension 500 BT per month, Not a lot I know but 500 BT more than they ever got under Thaksins leadership.

Given the chance I think the Dems will improve on this amongst a host of other needs.

phupaman

You're joking, right? Who's pushing for Constitution amendments right now? Tell me.

[TAWP]

Hi All.

I happen to believe that all the people who voted for the Democrats are being fairly represented by the Dem party in parliament.

Can anyone tell me what any members of Thaksin's party has done or even tried to do for the people who voted for them?.

Their number 1 priority has always been, Change the Constitution and forgive our leader, Not a care at all for all the Yai &Ta in Isaan who frequently were hungry hungry under TRT PPP & PT, Thanks to the Democrat party they all get a small pension 500 BT per month, Not a lot I know but 500 BT more than they ever got under Thaksins leadership.

Given the chance I think the Dems will improve on this amongst a host of other needs.

phupaman

You're joking, right? Who's pushing for Constitution amendments right now? Tell me.

Not the democrats...

[termad]

Sorry Poleax -----

"The government is making a big fuss and it is not even clear when the red shirts will hold a mass protest," he said.

You make it out to be a conspiracy to call the Red shirts .. the "Red shirts" but even PTP calls them that.

Bringing in undeclared money is something EVERY government watches.

80% Female --- men work and women cost less to hire.

Gold being sold --- wow yeah buying gold is about helping the poor!

Violence prone --- self appointed Red shirt leader Sae Daeng .... People's Army of Thailand .... Songkran '09 etc etc

KK and Ubonratchathani (or was it Udon Thani as you suggest) --- bogus numbers real crowd estimates appear to be only 20%-50% of your claim

Minority enemies? You mean the masses of Thai people that oppose violence in any form?

Again with the 80% --- men work women are cheaper to hire ---- no security (outright fabrication as EVERY red shirt gathering has security) though there is less need for it since they have not been victim to grenade attacks etc the way that the PAD was at government house etc. and please document in any meaningful way "farangs are idolized at these events" because I sincerely doubt ANYONE, even the most ardent red shirt supporter will believe that.

Abhisit said yesterday that there were unusually large sums of money coming into the country. When asked by reporters who had discovered this he replied that he had received reports and added that there were even large sums of money being smuggled across the border. when pressed by one reporter he was unable to give a single verifiable example of these large sums of money. The same reporter pointed out that many people didn't believe him and thought the whole thing was just a PR exercise. The PM had no reply to give. Exactly the same as the statement he made that Thaksin was taking Cambodian Nationality.