I hope it's OK for me to post this question in this forum, but I want to understand a Thai woman's perspective on this:

Is a Buddhist Wedding Ceremony alone considered by the bride and family as significantly binding? Or can the bride just walk away when she feels like it, whether she has just cause or not? Does it depend on how religious the people are? Does the wedding ceremony have serious weight in Thai culture?

You know tbh, Ben, those are some very good questions. I can only tell you what I know of my years of experience living in Thailand and having many Thai female acquaintances. And that is, it depends on the person. Most women view marriage as binding regardless of having a ceremony or not. But, of course, there are women who dont' care either way. Same as back home, really.

I would say that, as a generalization, the majority of rural/small town thai women view it as a significant gesture to show people that they are committed/not living sinfully but IME have no problem walking away when things are not going good & without the piece of paper saves them a lot of hassle when meeting someone new.

Don't know how more hi/so (urgh hate that term) city people view it but for the majority of small town people it is still an important exercise in face gaining/saving.

its not a religious thing so much as a community thing i.e. letting the community know u are a couple. there are no vows between bride and groom, so to speak. the officiator at thai wedding is just an elder/puu yai who perferms certain actions. not a priest/rabbi or judicial rep.

but thai mothers seem to see it as important , even more then the amphur registration which is just a technicality for them. as said above, less hassle though if she or u wants to walk away: no dealing witht he amphur registration stuff. but also not legally binding for farang to get visa or parentage issues with children. but again, i only can say about country folk . havent a clue about others.

bina

forgot to add, any reason to have a party of course, too!! to dress up in finery, blablabla....

My inlaws never had a wedding and didn't even get the official piece of paper until they'd been married something like 35 years. Did everyone consider them married before they got the piece of paper? sure. Where I live if you live together in a relationship like husband and wife that is the same thing as being husband and wife. Oh, and they got married to save on taxes

its not a religious thing so much as a community thing i.e. letting the community know u are a couple. there are no vows between bride and groom, so to speak. the officiator at thai wedding is just an elder/puu yai who perferms certain actions. not a priest/rabbi or judicial rep.

I have seen Thai weddings that were officiated by an elder, but in my case the wedding ceremony was led by seven monks, and officiated by a revered elder monk from the province. Many religious rituals were done with candles, candle wax on water, water spraying, string connecting the monks, bride and groom and everyone else, small miniature boxes made if banana leaf and representing a house, more string, and many prayers. So, even discounting for typical good luck blessings, it seemed pretty religious and substantive to me.

Many religions have a religious rituals, rules and process associated with dissolution of a marriage. I am getting the sense that Buddhism as practiced in Thailand does not. Is that correct?

Well, if the wife leaves in a bad way for the wrong reasons, I would think she would get some pretty bad karma.

was led by seven monks, and officiated by a revered elder monk from the province. Many religious rituals were done with candles, candle wax on water, water spraying, string connecting the monks, bride and groom and everyone else, small miniature boxes made if banana leaf and representing a house, more string, and many prayers. So, even discounting for typical good luck blessings, it seemed pretty religious and substantive to me.

it wasnt led by monks. monks were invited to make merit for every one, and its a status thing also, the more monks (in numbers of 3 7 9 etc) the richer or more status u have. same as for funerals.

all the candle wax stuff is not religious. the string tying is the laos rite for 'connecting souls together' i.e. reminding u that u belong to a community; its not religuious stuff but left overs from sanskrit rituals. the old guy officiating is the puu yai (town elder/oldest in the room/oldest in the area/considered 'old and wise'. here in israel its usually a really solid older guy thats been around for a while and also knows all the pali and sanskrit wording for the various 'prayers' (they arent really prayers but dont know what o call the chants that thais chant from the pali canon etc)for luck, etc.

most of these rites and rituals are community oriented. the water and wax is something from the monks givng u merit. so ist the string connecting everyone thru the monks (the ones with the merit making capabilites). the rest are just symbolic things. sometimes there isa hard boiled egg (fertility symbol). some of the rites and rituals go back to before thailand was buddhist- issaan thai are ethnically laos and have many of the rituals from animistic practices before they got to thailand , and they just stayed. the water is shaken out of a conch shell wich is actually a brahmin thing from india... etc etc...

same as boiled eggs, roasted lamb rib, saltywater and other things during passover (jewish holiday). its nto religous . its symbolic leftovers from former times representing usually fertility but other things also.

u can google and find lots of good anthropoligically oriented explanations for some of this stuff. my husband hadnt a clue as to why there is any of it, btw. i had to do all the research.

thais are very very community oriented but not very religious. only the monks are really 'religous'. the rest of the folks, laymen, practice varying superstitions, pagan turned buddhist rites, tribal beliefs, and a conglamerate of stuff merged into buddhist living. therefor, the only 'vows' ever given is when taking the 8 precepts for a laymen, or 327 precepts (or however many, cant remember) as a monk.

bina

israel

either way weddings are fun

bina

israel

it wasnt led by monks. monks were invited to make merit for every one... its not religuious stuff but left overs from sanskrit rituals. the old guy officiating is the puu yai (town elder/oldest in the room/oldest in the area/considered 'old and wise'... issaan thai are ethnically laos and have many of the rituals from animistic practices before they got to thailand , and they just stayed. the water is shaken out of a conch shell wich is actually a brahmin thing from india... etc etc...u can google and find lots of good anthropoligically oriented explanations for some of this stuff. my husband hadnt a clue as to why there is any of it, btw. i had to do all the research...thais are very very community oriented but not very religious. only the monks are really 'religious'...

Dear Bina,

Your post, and those of the others, are wonderful for me, so thank u very much. I appreciate the detail, intelligence and research in your response.

Bina, forgive me for asking, but I'm not clear...are you a Thai woman married to an Israeli and living in Israel? BTW, in terms of point of reference...I happen to be Jewish, my father is Israeli, and I just got back from to the States after spending a week hanging with friends around Koa San Road in Bangkok, which I refer to as Thailand's "TelAvivTown".

As for your specific points:

I think you are saying that for Thai People, Making Merit and Improving Luck cannot really be called Religious (however the religion is defined and amassed from multiple cultures). I understand, in most general terms, many of the derivations of practices followed by Isaan people.

Likewise, I understand the communal nature of their culture and practices. (My wife's family is, as typical in Isaan, of Lao origin. But I am still a bit stuck trying to understand why, with all the monks present, Sanskrit prayers and rituals, etc., you are still saying the ceremony isn't religious.

I suspect there is a finer point you are making that I am not grasping yet. It seemed most definitely to me that amongst all the monks in their orange robes, the elder monk, with all the Sanskrit and symbols I saw tattooed over his upper body, clearly was leading the ceremony. Everyone waited on his every word. So why is the ceremony not 'religious'?

Do you mean that through out all of the ceremony, no one is addressing god as in services in other religions? ...that the people are not at all thinking about Buddha and spirituality, but rather just showing-off, grasping for good luck and warding off evil spirits?

From what I've studied, Buddha never considered himself a god and nor his teachings as a religion. But Buddhism is still considered a religion, no? Is the fact that the practices in Isaan are a collection of rituals from different places, times and beliefs invalidate the ceremony as religious? It is hard for me to view the whole thing as "secular".

Here, in the West, religious events held as communal gatherings have their fair share of people showing-off and hoping for good luck. But does that detract from the religious nature of the event? Usually, not, although some over-the-top Bar Mitzvah carnivals I've seen seem far removed from religion...

Your distinction about the Thai Wedding Ceremony not being religious is still a bit confusing to me. However, I work with with the notion that while it all looks, smells and tastes like religion to me, it's just not perceived that way in any seriousness by most of the participants.

In any event, the woman I adore and married via Buddhist Ceremony has decided to leave me, and has walked away to a younger, better-looking and more wealthy man, and of course, there is basically nothing I can do about it. So, the above discussion is mostly academic for me, but it's still interesting to understand and helpful to understand the context and perceptions better.

From what i have observed and "heard" , most Thai put more stock in the Buddhist ceremony part than the Amphur part.

ben major: american born, lived here in israel 30 years, married now to thai man... in israel.

the monks have nothing to do with marriage ceremonies. they are just leading buddhist sermons that are applicable. we had no monks. actually went day before to the wat to talk with cousin of anon, a monk, about life, the universe and everything kind of conversation. nothing about wedding, vows, relationships etc.

tattoos are also in pali and or sanskrit but not buddhist strictly speaking. they are more like :white magic/black magic stuff ' kataa (invocations?) spellls, not sure how to translate that... the stuff is tied in with buddhism as most things thai are, but they came before buddhism and were mingled in.

tibet buddhism has its monks getting married (well, not monks but lamas)...

the rest of your questions can be better discussed in the buddhist setion (we discuss this stuff often, but u can start new threads and will get more elucite answers from more knowlegable people)...

but as black aretemetis said: it used to be that a vast majority of thai people felt that the community ceremony was more 'real' then the piece of paper at hte amphur.

ive related a story over and over: in short: a thai friend 'married' his sister in law at the amphur, even though she was actually 'married' by ritual to his brother. the 'marriage' was to show that he had ties to thailand, so he could get a work visa to the states as a migrant worker. he himself had a wife who left with his daughter, but they also were not legally registered.

there seem to be a lot of this, since the thais see it as just bs beaurocracy and not 'real' (at least the non sophisticated, country thais.)

sorry your wife walked out on u but the ceremony or lack thereof wouldnt make a difference if she wanted to walk away. neither would the piece of paper from the amphur.

glad u enjoy my posts... btw, being jewish by birth and possible culture, u would see things as secular or religous in black and white terms. here, eerything is black or white and it all revolves around relgioiun and belief. even our religioun talks about belief systems. but there is a lot of gray in between that applies to non monotheistic religions, and the thin line between philosophy, way of life, and religion. the druze are a case in point, for u (not druids, druze, for thsoe that possibly thought i made a typo )) .

off topic but u can re state these questions in teh buddhist forum as i ve said before if u want to persue that side of things...

bina

israel

As was kindly suggested, I re-started this thread in the Buddhism Forum.

Also don't forget the romantic sentiments of marriage. although the Buddhist ceremony itself is not of a romantic nature (actually are any wedding ceremonies?) all the white dresses, cheesy photos, wedding favours and heart shaped arches more than make up for it. I think for Thai women it is a chance to feel like she is actually living in a lakorn for a moment. The life of a working class Thai woman is not particularly glamorous, so this is her chance to escape for a bit.

Very insightful information.

was led by seven monks, and officiated by a revered elder monk from the province. Many religious rituals were done with candles, candle wax on water, water spraying, string connecting the monks, bride and groom and everyone else, small miniature boxes made if banana leaf and representing a house, more string, and many prayers. So, even discounting for typical good luck blessings, it seemed pretty religious and substantive to me.

it wasnt led by monks. monks were invited to make merit for every one, and its a status thing also, the more monks (in numbers of 3 7 9 etc) the richer or more status u have. same as for funerals.

all the candle wax stuff is not religious. the string tying is the laos rite for 'connecting souls together' i.e. reminding u that u belong to a community; its not religuious stuff but left overs from sanskrit rituals. the old guy officiating is the puu yai (town elder/oldest in the room/oldest in the area/considered 'old and wise'. here in israel its usually a really solid older guy thats been around for a while and also knows all the pali and sanskrit wording for the various 'prayers' (they arent really prayers but dont know what o call the chants that thais chant from the pali canon etc)for luck, etc.

most of these rites and rituals are community oriented. the water and wax is something from the monks givng u merit. so ist the string connecting everyone thru the monks (the ones with the merit making capabilites). the rest are just symbolic things. sometimes there isa hard boiled egg (fertility symbol). some of the rites and rituals go back to before thailand was buddhist- issaan thai are ethnically laos and have many of the rituals from animistic practices before they got to thailand , and they just stayed. the water is shaken out of a conch shell wich is actually a brahmin thing from india... etc etc...

same as boiled eggs, roasted lamb rib, saltywater and other things during passover (jewish holiday). its nto religous . its symbolic leftovers from former times representing usually fertility but other things also.

u can google and find lots of good anthropoligically oriented explanations for some of this stuff. my husband hadnt a clue as to why there is any of it, btw. i had to do all the research.

thais are very very community oriented but not very religious. only the monks are really 'religous'. the rest of the folks, laymen, practice varying superstitions, pagan turned buddhist rites, tribal beliefs, and a conglamerate of stuff merged into buddhist living. therefor, the only 'vows' ever given is when taking the 8 precepts for a laymen, or 327 precepts (or however many, cant remember) as a monk.

bina

israel

either way weddings are fun

bina

israel

I suspect there is a finer point you are making that I am not grasping yet. It seemed most definitely to me that amongst all the monks in their orange robes, the elder monk, with all the Sanskrit and symbols I saw tattooed over his upper body, clearly was leading the ceremony. Everyone waited on his every word. So why is the ceremony not 'religious'?

Simply put, there are two things going on: a traditional marriage ceremony and a religious blessing and merit-making ceremony. Buddhist monks in the Theravada tradition are ascetics, and they are forbidden from officiating at a wedding. So the monk you saw was leading the blessing ceremony, not the wedding ceremony. Every year my company holds the same kind of blessing ceremony for nine monks to bless the company. It's the same thing except there is no marrying couple. The company and its employees are making merit and being blessed.

It's the merit-making (what you donate to the monks) that is good karma and should affect your future in a positive way. If the marriage doesn't work out there's obviously (from the Thai perspective) some stronger bad karma from the past causing the problem, so you have to take the appropriate action. Ending the marriage is one option.