Fish Die Off In Pool

[jaideeguy]

$ months ago I converted my swimming pool to a natural fish pond and introduced both 4 inch tab tim and koi and they all seemed happy and tabtim even reproduced.....all was going well and low maintenance. Ran the 2hp pump to ariate the water an average of 1 hr a day.

Then, suddenly a week ago the koi started to die off and was observing signs of low oxygen [fish swimming slightly sideways and some surfacing to get air[?]. so, i pumped more hrs and Thai wife says it's the weather killing the fish.....hot/coldhot/cold.

We are in the CM area and lately the weather has been hot in the day cold in the night.

Anyone have any ideas on this??

[aitch52]

Hi Jaidee Guy

could be a number of things, fish are pretty resilient with hi - lo temperatures. Could be a build up of nitrites / nitrates which deplete the oxygen. Ammonia could also be a problem from the fishes waste. We also grow on catfish for the market and carry out regular water changes of up to 80% to prevent the build up. I realise of course with a swimming pool that is a shed load of water.

As you have a pool you should have a test kit for maintenance, have you taken the PH reading?

Good Luck anyway mate, I am not contradicting your wife by the way, just offering a few alternatives

Regards Chris

[Nio]

What you need to do is hook up an electronic timer to your pump and run it 5 minutes or so every single hour

If it is not a high flow pump maybe 10 minutes per hour, that way it is always ariated 24 hours a day

Also take a sample of the water and have it tested.

Is there shade in the form of pond lillies and other things for the fish? Also help to ariate and provide nutrients

I had some turtles die at night in what I expect was caused by drop in temperature and the water was just too cold

Good luck

[MESmith]

Jaideeguy, I'm trying to source some tab tim fingerlings, also near CM without much luck.  Where did you get yours?  

[aitch52]

This was e-mailed to me today from a thread by a guy called Anthony Roocroft some good info

Aitch

When water temperatures are high as they have been then a serious reduction of

oxygen levels takes place in any water course for the simple unavoidable reason

that water dissolves less oxygen as water temperatures increase. You can only do

your best to compensate for this by ensuring your waterfall is working and that you

also run a spray-type fountain. Of course if you have an air pump and air stones then

keep the air pump running morning, noon and night.

Water at 25 degrees C can hold only 89% of the oxygen that water at 20 degrees

can hold. At 30 degrees oxygen is depleted by about 20%. This is a great deal

when seen from the perspective of the the fish and the bacteria in your biofilter.

In fact because dissolved oxygen content is lower the biofilter works less well which

creates more of a strain on the pond system.

[jaideeguy]

got my tabtim from neighbors, but they can [sometimes] be had at the rhom chok [sp?] market behind the rimping on 2nd ring road and maejo rd. small vendor on the maejo outside of mkt.

will test for ph and report.....was neutral before I added fish.

should mention less than 100 fish in 80 cu mtrs of water...so not crowded or over stocked.

do have some plants, but tabtim distroy them all.

is 2 hp a high flow pump??

and just noticed a typo in my OP.....$ should read 4months.

thanks and still open to suggestions asap because fish are dying still.

why the koi first?? seems like they would be a more hardy fish than tabtim??

[MESmith]

got my tabtim from neighbors, but they can [sometimes] be had at the rhom chok [sp?] market behind the rimping on 2nd ring road and maejo rd. small vendor on the maejo outside of mkt.

Thanks, will have a look.  Yesterday we were up at the royal project at Huay Lan reservoir, SE of San Kamphaeng.  They breed all sorts of fish there, but wouldn't let us have any     Told the wife they supply them to somewhere near Mae Jo university, so we'll search around there, & if no luck call in at rhom chok on the way home.

[troehr]

You should get a different pump than the pool used. They make pumps that have a very low operating cost for ponds. Y9ou need to run the pump all the time. You also need some kind of airation going. A waterfall or water being pumped so it lands on the water surface ans makes a disturbance. this puts oxygen back into the water. The other problem is probably filtration and nitrogen build up. many new ponds run find for the first couple of months. Then the waste and nitrogen builds up and you have problems. Swimming pool filters generally are not up to the job. This is especially true if you have a sand filter. You need some kind of filtration system that will allow for the build up of benificial bacteria which will convert the nitrogen.

Contrary to what someone said abore, Koi are not hardy fish when it comes to water quality. They need very clean water and require constant filtration.

Tim

[troehr]

Hi Jaidee Guy

could be a number of things, fish are pretty resilient with hi - lo temperatures. Could be a build up of nitrites / nitrates which deplete the oxygen. Ammonia could also be a problem from the fishes waste. We also grow on catfish for the market and carry out regular water changes of up to 80% to prevent the build up. I realise of course with a swimming pool that is a shed load of water.

As you have a pool you should have a test kit for maintenance, have you taken the PH reading?

Good Luck anyway mate, I am not contradicting your wife by the way, just offering a few alternatives

Regards Chris

Water changes should be 10% a month, not 80%. That will just lead to a continuous cycle of problems. A water change is just that. You pump out 10% of the water and replace it. It is not just refilling for evaporation.

Tim

[aitch52]

Hi Tim

agreed, but we are keeping 2000 catfish in each concrete pond which measure 4.5 metres x 3.5 metres, water depth half a metre. Growing from fingerlings to a target weicght of 400-500 grams in 4 - 5 months. That is why we are changing a high percentage of the water, this is well water incidentally with no additives. The water change regime is horses for courses, catfish seem to love murky water so we aren't worried about clarity, just get rid of the waste.

[RedBullHorn]

Water changes should be 10% a month, not 80%.That will just lead to a continuous cycle of problems . A water change is just that. You pump out 10% of the water and replace it. It is not just refilling for evaporation.

Tim

Ignored! I don't think you know what you'r talking about!....10%!!!!!!.....are you a pla nok yong(guppy) aquarium hobby guy?

"That will just lead to a continuous cycle of problems"....Like what!!!!!!!...care to enlighten ME with what you've Google?

[RedBullHorn]

You should get a different pump than the pool used. They make pumps that have a very low operating cost for ponds. Y9ou need to run the pump all the time. You also need some kind of airation going. A waterfall or water being pumped so it lands on the water surface ans makes a disturbance. this puts oxygen back into the water. The other problem is probably filtration and nitrogen build up. many new ponds run find for the first couple of months. Then the waste and nitrogen builds up and you have problems. Swimming pool filters generally are not up to the job. This is especially true if you have a sand filter. You need some kind of filtration system that will allow for the build up of benificial bacteria which will convert the nitrogen.

Contrary to what someone said abore, Koi are not hardy fish when it comes to water quality. They need very clean water and require constant filtration.

Tim

If you're addresses this for commercial catfish farming in a concrete tank, it would make more economic sense to change at lease 70% or the whole tank after a period of time. The purpose of a filtration system is to recycle so as to acquire better quality water back to its holding tank or pond. So logically, it is 100% water change at single complete cycle rate...if it takes 1 hour to complete 1 water change cycle times 24 hours, you'r actually doing 2400% water change...At approximately 1 Baht per 1 kilowatt(what i'm paying)....Sure!... But maintenance cost for filtration system....No! .... Especially when you are farming 2000 voracious fishes that eat and shit like mad, hands on and change those water in those tank!....100% !!!

[Naam]

"Ran the 2hp pump to ariate the water an average of 1 hr a day"

if you don't have a waterfall or a fountain your pool is not aerated just by running the pool pump.

[jaideeguy]

Just checked ph and it is a 7....neutral enough?

I do 'fountain' my pool return water.....have 5 pvc heads that I can direct to fountain spray on water.....approx 1 hr a day.

the main reason I did this experiment is to save $'s in running the pump and chemicals thru the winter months when the pool is not in use and thinking that at least, I would get a 'fish fry' at the end of the winter.....and maybe make a couple of $$ if successful.

If the problem is buildup of nitrogen from fish pupu....would catfish survive better?? really don't like catfish for eating, but can sell.

would rather not have to get into adding more water, as we have well water and wear and tear on pump and we have droubt conditions up here in CM and well may run dry.

[jaideeguy]

As mentioned above by troher......maybe i could get a low output pump and put the intake in the deepest part of the pool and run the output to a barrel sand/gravel filter and then back to pool??

[RedBullHorn]

Spending more money on another pump and filtration material...thought you want to save $'s ?...^^'

[Lost in LOS]

you need a filter system running 24 hours a day that also aerates the pond as the water flows back. It must have some sort of filter medium in it [rough stones, lava rock, bio balls or scrubbing pads etc]. you dont need such a large pump to conserve energy

you need to make sure any significant amounts of water change does not have chlorine in it or change small amounts at a time.

do not overfeed

you need some shade for the fish to hang out in

[ignis]

all was going well and low maintenance

Sorry no such thing as low maintenance...

Myself have a big air pump on 24/7 I used 1/2" pipe drilled holes where I wanted and then pushed on 12 connectors with air stones..

I have 2 pumps on 24/7 conected to German type filters these filer the water back in via 1" pipes with air. Fish love to swim in this strong water/air mix.[these are like the ones used for a swimming pool but for Fish Ponds] I have a waterfall on from 8am to 6 pm every day.

My Koi I feed 5x a day, backwash both filters every other day, take to bits 1x per week to clean, back wash is good but will not clean 100%, change 60% of the water ever month, fill via a water filter system.. [You can buy Crystals to put in if you have not a water filter system]

You need to check at least every week each fish, if they look unwell, swim funny, have a spot on them [worm] then they any sick one need to come out into a holding tank.. For the holding tank you also need at least an air pump....

If all you fish look sick then buy 'Bio Knock' treatment, as you have a big pond then would use the hole bottle, change the water 80% every day adding more Bio Knock untill they look better.. If your fish look very sick then you need to ask in a fish farm for much stronger medication, warning if you add this to you pool/pond then when there better the fish will need to come out and the pool/pond cleaned and left to dry in the sun for at least 3 days...

If at any time you get new fish you should 1st put in a holding take for 5 days to be 100% sure they are not sick.... only needs one to be sick or to have a worm then all the other fish will get sick...

Fish arrive at a fish shop in plastic bags with water and filled with air, most arrive on the back of a open pickup and has taken a hour or 2 to get to the shop, because of room or the lack of the new fish are added to any old stock, normally penicillin is added to the water and the shop keeper hope for the best..

It is expensive if fish die to replace, also expensive to care for them, Myself would love a swiming pool size pond, but have to make do with 4m x 2m pond, even so this size cost at least 10,000 baht per month, OK only need to sell one or maybe 2 fish to cover this.

NEVER put your hands or feet in the pond unless you have washed them in DETTOL 1st.

[jaideeguy]

There would be some set up cost for sure, but I was paying more than 1,000thb/mo in electricity alone. the cost of a new [smaller] pump could be quickly recoverd.

Any suggestions for a low cost home made poo filter??/ I was thinking of a large plastic drum with gravel and/or sand as media.

[jaideeguy]

The last two informatave posts came in while I was typing my last. Interesting....growing Koi. Bigger profits and bigger losses too. are either of you guys up north?? would love to see your operations and pick your brains....if you don't mind.

Otherwise, maybe I should stick with tabtim, which seem a lot cheaper and lower maintenance.

I've lost 80+% of the koi and only 5% of tabtim.

[troehr]

Actually I do know what I am talking about. If you will read, I was addressing the Koi he said were dying off. Catfish are a completely different thing. They will live in a low oxygen environment. 10% water changes with good filtration is good enough. I have friends who raise tens of thousands of show quality Koi and do not have the problems with nitrate build ups. I have had large ponds for years raising Koi. When you pay $1000 for a fish you pay attention to learning how to keep them alive.

Tim

[troehr]

There would be some set up cost for sure, but I was paying more than 1,000thb/mo in electricity alone. the cost of a new [smaller] pump could be quickly recoverd.

Any suggestions for a low cost home made poo filter??/ I was thinking of a large plastic drum with gravel and/or sand as media.

Jagged gravel or lave works well. You need a large surface a rea for the beneficial algae to grow on. Sand does not work. It will clog continuously. The water needs to freely and evenly flow over the filter strata.

Tim

[ignis]

Actually I do know what I am talking about. If you will read, I was addressing the Koi he said were dying off. Catfish are a completely different thing. They will live in a low oxygen environment. 10% water changes with good filtration is good enough. I have friends who raise tens of thousands of show quality Koi and do not have the problems with nitrate build ups. I have had large ponds for years raising Koi. When you pay $1000 for a fish you pay attention to learning how to keep them alive.

Tim

Yes that is very true with Koi, I sell mine at about 30cm have a few bigger, but at a Koi show last year on the last day they sold off the fish by Auction, the biggest one sold for 1 million baht, even 30cm one were selling for 13-15,000 baht each

[ignis]

There would be some set up cost for sure, but I was paying more than 1,000thb/mo in electricity alone. the cost of a new [smaller] pump could be quickly recoverd.

Any suggestions for a low cost home made poo filter??/ I was thinking of a large plastic drum with gravel and/or sand as media.

My 1st filter system 6 odd years ago I made myself.... Large square pubish bin, used UPVC 1.5 pipe, drilled hole in top for water in, drilled hole in side near top for water out, use bend and pipe to draw water out about 2/3 down... 1/2 fill with Lava stone, or shells, place on top the white fiber filter, clean ever 2 days the fiber, 1x per month the whole bin.. om mine I used the outlet water to run over a pile of rocks so was a waterfall.

A good German filter system cost 70,000baht !!!

You also need air... Air pump with air stones ? [No Idea what your electric is like? if the electric goes out the water will creep back up the pipe and blow the air pump] or buy a sub.. pump about 1,400baht and the air attachment to go on top..... If your using a swimming pool you will need some strong wire to hold the pump about 30-40cm from the top.

Edited February 12, 2010 by ignis

[Naam]

you need a filter system running 24 hours a day that also aerates the pond as the water flows back. It must have some sort of filter medium in it [rough stones, lava rock, bio balls or scrubbing pads etc]. you dont need such a large pump to conserve energy

let's recapitulate:

-Jaideeguy uses a 2hp (~1.5kw) pump and the electricity consumption [of this pump] is ~1,000 Baht/month about which he is not happy about. this indicates a usage of 175 hours/month based on 3.8 Baht for 1kwh.

-Lost in Los suggests a smaller pump but running that pump 24 hours/day.

conclusion: if JDG wants to save on electricity... say 500 Baht/month he needs a 1/4hp (~185watts) pump which does not even have the capacity to power a bumspray properly in one of his bathrooms not to talk about the filtration of a rather big pool (if i remember correctly).

thanks for not listening

[jaideeguy]

Dr Naam,

Hoping to get your factual input......

It would be easier to pay the electric bill [even if higher] if there were some potiential to make a few THB and have some pretty fish swimming around. I got great pleasure out of my koi before they started floating.

The fact is that the novelty of a swimming pool for the kids [and I] has worn out and I would like to consider an alternative use for it, as you know how much it cost to run/maintain a pool all year and up here in the north, it is only used 6 months out of the year.

Have established that tabtim are less demanding, but to be honest, the green water is not too pretty to look at. A nice clean koi pool/pond with some water plants would look better.

Another alternative would be to cover my pool like yours, then it could extend the swimming season, but cost more THB.

This economic downturn has me pinching satang and looking for alternative income.

hoping to get invited to a commercial koi operation........

[troehr]

I made my own filter system also using 55 gallon barrels. Water went in at the bottom of the barrels and out near the top. I used lava as my filter medium. There are plans all over the internet for this. You do not need as big a pump as a lot of people are saying here. I just has to flow enough water to filter whatever your gallonage is in every few hours. If you have the water reenter the pool from a waterfall, you should get enough air into the water for your Koi. Plants like water lotus would help also. Your Koi pond should have about 60% surface coverage. Water Lotus also acts as a filtering agent for the pond.

If you have green water, you need to do something soon. Koi will not last in it. They need perfectly clear water, they are extremely sensitive to water quality issues.

[ignis]

I made my own filter system also using 55 gallon barrels. Water went in at the bottom of the barrels and out near the top. I used lava as my filter medium. There are plans all over the internet for this. You do not need as big a pump as a lot of people are saying here. I just has to flow enough water to filter whatever your gallonage is in every few hours. If you have the water reenter the pool from a waterfall, you should get enough air into the water for your Koi. Plants like water lotus would help also. Your Koi pond should have about 60% surface coverage. Water Lotus also acts as a filtering agent for the pond.

If you have green water, you need to do something soon. Koi will not last in it. They need perfectly clear water, they are extremely sensitive to water quality issues.

Do not think plants will help the OP.. He said his pond is the swimming pool..... I would say I am not in favor of big pumps, I buy only from the wholesaler at the fish Market 100km south of BKK [driving down there later today need more A1 15 - 18 cm fish for the shop, the seller there has 50 for me, sure to buy others from different seller also]

Last trip down 2 weeks ago they had 11 pure white with a perfect round red circle on the head + 6 totally black ones + 5 blue ones very hard to find, could not pass these on to the shop so in my pond They sell these 12 - 14cm Koi for 1,200baht each, as I buy wholesale and go there every 14 days got them for 5-600 baht each. Sure when there 30cm will sell them

I 1st used a big pump costing over 5,000baht wholesale, in 2 years had to be replaced 3 times, now I buy smaller ones costing 1,400baht, if a pump stops working still have another, appear to last much longer also, have 6 of them in my pond.... Also helps every month I take the pumps out and clean them, unscrew and pull the motor out to clean the bottom bearing... now in the past 3 years only 1x pump has failed.

Agree there are 100’s of websites with lots of good info and help + expect to build myself a new pond 8m x 3m x1.8 deep next year + 2 holding tanks both 3mx1m x 60cm deep, and with experience and useful info on the web the pond will be different than the present one.

[troehr]

Water Lotus are floating plants and would work perfectly fine in a swimming pool. Many people have converted swimming pools to Koi ponds.

[ignis]

Water Lotus are floating plants and would work perfectly fine in a swimming pool. Many people have converted swimming pools to Koi ponds.

Tried them a couple of time found the Koi would eat the roots