I Can Finally Leave Thailand.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Well said UG. Those that been in SEA long enough know the score when it comes to the ladies especially those that work the naughty nightlife arena. They are under no illusions on what sort of relationship it is.

No this is completely wrong. You and UG are denying the fact that most men that come here seem to NOT be able to differentiate between illusion and reality. I disagree completely which is why I think its so dangerous for men. Why do we have a new daily horror story of some falang getting fleeced or murdered by his bar girl girlfriend if so many men are capable of telling fact from fiction. they all WANT to believe the lie and that is what makes it so dangeorus. They wont even pick up on the obvious signs they normally would becuase they dont want to.

Dont misunderstand, I am not some old guy that got burned by my multiple attempts at marrying bar girls and has become bitter and cynical. I never let myself get into a position to get bitter and cynical, I never dated bar girls and do not partake of their services even on a purely business arrangement. I am no Don Juan either, I am in fact very alone and lonely, because I will not date certain types of women that leaves me with very little options in a country I find full of racism, the girls I would date, would not date me simply because of my race.

But I would rather be in pain alone, than seek comfort in a lie and an illusion.

you can take the girl out of the bar - but not the bar out of the girl - learn that and you can have fun and not get burnt

[MJP]

8>< NESTED QUOTES DELETED ><8

No this is completely wrong. You and UG are denying the fact that most men that come here seem to NOT be able to differentiate between illusion and reality. I disagree completely which is why I think its so dangerous for men. Why do we have a new daily horror story of some falang getting fleeced or murdered by his bar girl girlfriend if so many men are capable of telling fact from fiction. they all WANT to believe the lie and that is what makes it so dangeorus. They wont even pick up on the obvious signs they normally would becuase they dont want to.

Dont misunderstand, I am not some old guy that got burned by my multiple attempts at marrying bar girls and has become bitter and cynical. I never let myself get into a position to get bitter and cynical, I never dated bar girls and do not partake of their services even on a purely business arrangement. I am no Don Juan either, I am in fact very alone and lonely, because I will not date certain types of women that leaves me with very little options in a country I find full of racism, the girls I would date, would not date me simply because of my race.

But I would rather be in pain alone, than seek comfort in a lie and an illusion.

You're missing out on an illusion that beats David Copperfield hands down.

And I think your prejudices mean you are really missing out socially as well. If you follow the field sports threads, there are plenty of chaps with constructive advice on snaring respectable girls, catching them with nets, stalking them through shopping malls and so forth - to the point of making you a hunt saboteur...

On a statistical point, I don't think you should use the term 'most' (my bolding) based on a few anecdotal horror stories; better to say 'some', or 'a few', although that undermines the advice you have given yourself...

Anyway, sitting as you are with your heartache, what I would recommend is a bit of joy and illusion, leading up to trouble and woes - woes by any other name would smell as sweet...

If you want to carry on resisting temptation, Take a ladyboy dancing, and enjoy the innocent fun.

Remember: Stiff upper lip, and look on the bright side - at least you don't have nails in your feet!

SC

Not all fellas are that sexually motivated, for one reason or another. There are other interests, other ways of life, having a circle of friends . . . not all divorcees race out to find a new partner, or try and compensate by having multiple sexual partners, paid for or not.

I't really no big deal.

[Ulysses G.]

But I would rather be in pain alone, than seek comfort in a lie and an illusion.

That is your choice, but don't expect everyone else to be miserable when they have even a slight chance of happiness.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[mark45y]

Its not the sex, its the lie that emotions exist that is dangerous and leads to many of the horror stories we read about daily. Some guys are stone cold and dont care, but lots deep down want the girl to feed the illusion of true positive emotions and feelings that simply dont exist. Paying for sex is one thing, paying for a lie you so desperately want to believe is sad and pathetic and leads to nothing but heartbreak and trouble.

I'm still not sure what your point is. There are plenty of good healthy, successful men who come to Thailand and enjoy the culture and the sights and also enjoy the sex industry - like Ian - but in general, you seem to be talking about the truly desperate men who have been rejected by society and women all of their lives and come here because it's pretty much a prostitute or nothing.

Perhaps some of them deserve to live sad, lonely lives, but others have just been unlucky, so I'm more inclined to think that most of them deserve some kind of intimacy even if they have to pay for it.

Maybe, if they get involved in a relationship, it will all turn out to be a lie, or maybe they will have some luck for the first time in their lives - it does happen here sometimes - but either way, it has got to be better than just staying home and hoping for something that is just never going to happen.

I agree with Ulysses G and provide the following historical references.

Siamese women in the 17th century are mentioned in the diary of French ambassador Simon de La Loub่re, who arrived in Ayutthaya some 30 years after Fernberger.

The ambassador writes in his memoirs about a brothel in the capital of Ayutthaya, which was home to some 600 women from different levels of society, including the daughters and wives of the court's noblemen.

Prostitution in the port city of Pattani is also mentioned in the journals of several 17th-century foreign traders. The Dutch merchant Van Neck, who arrived in Pattani in the early 1600s, describes the women at the harbour and their services.

"When foreigners come from other lands to do their business…men come and ask them whether they desire a woman. The young women and girls also come and present themselves, from whom they may choose the one most agreeable to them, provided they agree what he shall pay for certain months. Once they agree about the money (which does not amount to much for so great a convenience), she comes to his house, and serves him by day as his maidservant and by night as his wedded wife."

For his part, the foreign trader had to agree not to consort with other women while the temporary wife was similarly forbidden to converse with other men. The "marriage" was deemed to last for as long as the man kept up his residence, "in good peace and unity".

Fernberger, who arrived in Pattani in December 1624, wasn't interested in hooking up with a woman at the harbour. His attention was on the female ruler with whom he had been granted an audience.

Pattani was under the rule of Raja Ungu, the third of four successive queens to take the throne. Fernberger describes her as an absolutist ruler who did not listen to any council.

In his diary he describes the royal entourage of 200 women. As a sign of royal power, she kept about 50 elephants and possessed some 50 men who she used for her sexual pleasure.

Lukas says the women of Pattani, and especially the queen, enjoyed many liberties.

He writes that after being granted an audience with Raja Ungu, she provided him with a house and 10 slaves. He later helped her fight the Siam invasion in January 1625 in which Pattani won the battle. The young Austrian describes how the queen expressed her gratitude by sending him a present and passing on a message that she would visit him at night.

"Fernberger says a Malay colonel gave him to understand that the queen intended to make love with him. As he'd heard that men who had failed to meet her high expectations were ordered to be killed, Fernberger clandestinely sneaked down to the shore, boarded a small sailboat and went back to Ayutthaya.

End of quotes from diary of the French ambassador.

From reading the above you can get an idea how the GFE experience started in Thailand.

Far from being immoral it is the purpose of the GFE to provide an experience that is identical to a wife albeit for a shorter time. This was the standard in Thailand in the 1600’s and although less prevalent now still available.

Prostitution in Thailand developed in a different way than in China and Japan and this can be confirmed by numerous articles found by searching “brothels in Ayutthaya.” It makes interesting reading for those who really want to understand the nature of the profession.

In 1930 there were 151 licensed brothels in Bangkok alone. And they weren’t small establishments. That makes for a whole bunch heartbreak and trouble?

Oh come on now! Paying for a lie has been part of the Thai experience since men started writing on paper instead of making scratches on cave walls.

Get over it and get used to it.

[MJP]

But I would rather be in pain alone, than seek comfort in a lie and an illusion.

That is your choice, but don't expect everyone else to be miserable when they have even a slight chance of happiness.

It's not wrong. He doesn't need to be miserable. No one does.

I was thinking about this recently. Chemical castration. Perhaps thats the route to true happiness. Like going to the Dignitas clinic in Zurich, only for your nob.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Its not the sex, its the lie that emotions exist that is dangerous and leads to many of the horror stories we read about daily. Some guys are stone cold and dont care, but lots deep down want the girl to feed the illusion of true positive emotions and feelings that simply dont exist. Paying for sex is one thing, paying for a lie you so desperately want to believe is sad and pathetic and leads to nothing but heartbreak and trouble.

I'm still not sure what your point is. There are plenty of good healthy, successful men who come to Thailand and enjoy the culture and the sights and also enjoy the sex industry - like Ian - but in general, you seem to be talking about the truly desperate men who have been rejected by society and women all of their lives and come here because it's pretty much a prostitute or nothing.

Perhaps some of them deserve to live sad, lonely lives, but others have just been unlucky, so I'm more inclined to think that most of them deserve some kind of intimacy even if they have to pay for it.

Maybe, if they get involved in a relationship, it will all turn out to be a lie, or maybe they will have some luck for the first time in their lives - it does happen here sometimes - but either way, it has got to be better than just staying home and hoping for something that is just never going to happen.

I agree with Ulysses G and provide the following historical references.

Siamese women in the 17th century are mentioned in the diary of French ambassador Simon de La Loub่re, who arrived in Ayutthaya some 30 years after Fernberger.

The ambassador writes in his memoirs about a brothel in the capital of Ayutthaya, which was home to some 600 women from different levels of society, including the daughters and wives of the court's noblemen.

Prostitution in the port city of Pattani is also mentioned in the journals of several 17th-century foreign traders. The Dutch merchant Van Neck, who arrived in Pattani in the early 1600s, describes the women at the harbour and their services.

"When foreigners come from other lands to do their business…men come and ask them whether they desire a woman. The young women and girls also come and present themselves, from whom they may choose the one most agreeable to them, provided they agree what he shall pay for certain months. Once they agree about the money (which does not amount to much for so great a convenience), she comes to his house, and serves him by day as his maidservant and by night as his wedded wife."

For his part, the foreign trader had to agree not to consort with other women while the temporary wife was similarly forbidden to converse with other men. The "marriage" was deemed to last for as long as the man kept up his residence, "in good peace and unity".

Fernberger, who arrived in Pattani in December 1624, wasn't interested in hooking up with a woman at the harbour. His attention was on the female ruler with whom he had been granted an audience.

Pattani was under the rule of Raja Ungu, the third of four successive queens to take the throne. Fernberger describes her as an absolutist ruler who did not listen to any council.

In his diary he describes the royal entourage of 200 women. As a sign of royal power, she kept about 50 elephants and possessed some 50 men who she used for her sexual pleasure.

Lukas says the women of Pattani, and especially the queen, enjoyed many liberties.

He writes that after being granted an audience with Raja Ungu, she provided him with a house and 10 slaves. He later helped her fight the Siam invasion in January 1625 in which Pattani won the battle. The young Austrian describes how the queen expressed her gratitude by sending him a present and passing on a message that she would visit him at night.

"Fernberger says a Malay colonel gave him to understand that the queen intended to make love with him. As he'd heard that men who had failed to meet her high expectations were ordered to be killed, Fernberger clandestinely sneaked down to the shore, boarded a small sailboat and went back to Ayutthaya.

End of quotes from diary of the French ambassador.

From reading the above you can get an idea how the GFE experience started in Thailand.

Far from being immoral it is the purpose of the GFE to provide an experience that is identical to a wife albeit for a shorter time. This was the standard in Thailand in the 1600's and although less prevalent now still available.

Prostitution in Thailand developed in a different way than in China and Japan and this can be confirmed by numerous articles found by searching "brothels in Ayutthaya." It makes interesting reading for those who really want to understand the nature of the profession.

In 1930 there were 151 licensed brothels in Bangkok alone. And they weren't small establishments. That makes for a whole bunch heartbreak and trouble?

Oh come on now! Paying for a lie has been part of the Thai experience since men started writing on paper instead of making scratches on cave walls.

Get over it and get used to it.

interesting... but its not even a lie is it? if you don't believe them - and enjoy the experience for itself - anyway the guy needs to get out more! blimey I let go of romantic delusions years ago - grab a bottle of something and get laid man!

[TheLaughingMan]

Mark45, Absolutely irrelevant. Culturally back then men were aware of the reality of the situation. So no harm done. Today, we send completely unknowing and naive men into sitiuations and cultures they are unfamiliar with. Then we have trouble.

And UG, I am alone and lonely now, I know I'll eventually meet someone and no longer be alone. I'm just saying men are forgetting that "too good to be true" means just that, if they find instant love easily, well there is something wrong. With patience and work you hopefully find someone true.

You all misunderstand me anyway, nothing wrong with paying for it, nothing wrong with buying companionship. The problem is falling for the illusion. Getting your heart involved when you should not. That is why I don't like the whole mess I see here in Thailand. Thai men dont seem to have a problem falling in love with and marrying prostitutes so why do we? Because we havent a clue.

Edited February 15, 2010 by TheLaughingMan

[Ulysses G.]

I was thinking about this recently. Chemical castration. Perhaps thats the route to true happiness. Like going to the Dignitas clinic in Zurich, only for your nob.

You would desperately want sex, but not be able to fuction. Castration is no answer!

[MJP]

I was thinking about this recently. Chemical castration. Perhaps thats the route to true happiness. Like going to the Dignitas clinic in Zurich, only for your nob.

You would desperately want sex, but not be able to fuction. Castration is no answer!

Hey! That's me right now!

1. It's like a bag of chips, seems like a good idea at the time, but it's always a greasy disappointment.

2. Can't be bothered.

3. Can't get it up anyway and it's only small. Pretty pointless really. Not like in those films.

4. . . . ah, it'll come to me.

[TheLaughingMan]

Just to reiterate, many of you seem to know the reality and enjoy life and the opportunities here without believing in a lie and opening yourself up to heartache and woe. But I really dont think you posting here are representative of most of the men in Thailand.

[britmaveric]

And let me guess you don't think bargirls can fall in love and marry? (know quite a few lads that have very happy marriages with said bargirls)

It seems laughingman you are not comfy being alone. Once you accept being alone you can be happy. Nothing wrong with it. You think too much and this is what is preventing you from enjoying life.

Edited February 15, 2010 by britmaveric

[Ulysses G.]

I was thinking about this recently. Chemical castration. Perhaps thats the route to true happiness. Like going to the Dignitas clinic in Zurich, only for your nob.

You would desperately want sex, but not be able to fuction. Castration is no answer!

Hey! That's me right now!

1. It's like a bag of chips, seems like a good idea at the time, but it's always a greasy disappointment.

2. Can't be bothered.

3. Can't get it up anyway and it's only small. Pretty pointless really. Not like in those films.

4. . . . ah, it'll come to me.

Excuse me for being personal, but most people get bored of marital sex after a while and that sounds like your problem.

As far as having a miniscule member goes, sex workers could care less as long as they get paid. That is one of the many reasons that they have so many happy customers.

[GuestHouse]

It seems LaughingMan has struck a nerve.

Either he's said something that is so far from true to be offensive.

Or

He's said something so true as to be offensive.

[MJP]

I was thinking about this recently. Chemical castration. Perhaps thats the route to true happiness. Like going to the Dignitas clinic in Zurich, only for your nob.

You would desperately want sex, but not be able to fuction. Castration is no answer!

Hey! That's me right now!

1. It's like a bag of chips, seems like a good idea at the time, but it's always a greasy disappointment.

2. Can't be bothered.

3. Can't get it up anyway and it's only small. Pretty pointless really. Not like in those films.

4. . . . ah, it'll come to me.

Excuse me for being personal, but most people get bored of marital sex after a while and that sounds like your problem.

As far as having a miniscule member goes, sex workers could care less as long as they get paid. That is one of the many reasons that they have so many happy customers.

Oh, that finished years ago.

It's no big deal any of it.

[Ulysses G.]

I guess that is why you were so insistant that you are not here for sex. I admire honesty!

[StreetCowboy]

8 >< SNIP ><8

Hey! That's me right now!

1. It's like a bag of chips, seems like a good idea at the time, but it's always a greasy disappointment.

2. Can't be bothered.

3. Can't get it up anyway and it's only small. Pretty pointless really. Not like in those films.

4. . . . ah, it'll come to me.

1. But it tastes good at the time... there's nothing like a bit of sauce to liven things up!

2. So pay someone else to do all the hard work.

3. So long as you're satisfied...the customer is always right.

4. The pearls of strong drink.

SC

I see MJP has responded while I was typing, making this comment superfluous and inappropriate, but I'm so pompous and full of my own wit that I'll post it anyway

[britmaveric]

It seems LaughingMan has struck a nerve.

Either he's said something that is so far from true to be offensive.

Or

He's said something so true as to be offensive.

Or

Maybe what he is said only applies to own way of thinking?

[MJP]

8 >< SNIP ><8

Hey! That's me right now!

1. It's like a bag of chips, seems like a good idea at the time, but it's always a greasy disappointment.

2. Can't be bothered.

3. Can't get it up anyway and it's only small. Pretty pointless really. Not like in those films.

4. . . . ah, it'll come to me.

1. But it tastes good at the time... there's nothing like a bit of sauce to liven things up!

2. So pay someone else to do all the hard work.

3. So long as you're satisfied...the customer is always right.

4. The pearls of strong drink.

SC

I see MJP has responded while I was typing, making this comment superfluous and inappropriate, but I'm so pompous and full of my own wit that I'll post it anyway

Great quotes there. Ketchup's real cheap here. 3.6L for 85 Baht.

See? I can't get past domestic normality.

[GuestHouse]

Maybe what he is said only applies to own way of thinking?

His own, my own, your own, their own, that person over there's own....... Confusing isn't it?!

Edited February 15, 2010 by GuestHouse

[mark45y]

Mark45, Absolutely irrelevant. Culturally back then men were aware of the reality of the situation. So no harm done. Today, we send completely unknowing and naive men into sitiuations and cultures they are unfamiliar with. Then we have trouble.

And UG, I am alone and lonely now, I know I'll eventually meet someone and no longer be alone. I'm just saying men are forgetting that "too good to be true" means just that, if they find instant love easily, well there is something wrong. With patience and work you hopefully find someone true.

You all misunderstand me anyway, nothing wrong with paying for it, nothing wrong with buying companionship. The problem is falling for the illusion. Getting your heart involved when you should not. That is why I don't like the whole mess I see here in Thailand. Thai men dont seem to have a problem falling in love with and marrying prostitutes so why do we? Because we havent a clue.

Laughing man I assume you have little education about cultural awareness, like no formal education in sociology, cultural anthropology, history or anything that would make you aware of the history of the human race more than 20 years ago.

100 years ago or 200 years ago or 500 years ago men were still wondering about if the earth was round. My grandfather thought the moon landing was faked. You can read the dairies of WW II soldiers in Singapore, Burma and Thailand. They didn’t have a clue what was going on here.

The current person coming to Thailand with all the information on the net and books available would have to be a buffalo not to know about the bright light girls in Thailand.

Laughing man, it is you who doesn’t have a clue but the problem is you don’t have a clue what you don’t have a clue about.

What you don’t have a clue about and what everybody else who is sane here has a clue about including the Thai guys is this, “you are always going to pay for it. Maybe now, maybe later. Maybe in money, maybe in blood, sweat and tears. The only person who ever loved you was your mom and even that is was not a sure thing.”

Stop worrying about paying for it and start worrying about how much it costs. That is something you can deal with. Marriage has a different price than short time. That’s a fact. I don’t think anyone would disagree with that.

Some guys like the installment plan others like the pay as you go plan. Some guys lease some guys buy. That is the way of the world. Always has been. Unless you are really lucky or like to live alone you will end up giving all or most all of your money to a woman. Don’t feel bad about it. Try to have some fun spending it.

[StreetCowboy]

It seems LaughingMan has struck a nerve.

Either he's said something that is so far from true to be offensive.

Or

He's said something so true as to be offensive.

Or

Maybe what he is said only applies to own way of thinking?

He's not deaf, you know. You can talk to him direct.

I WAS JUST TELLING THEM - YOU'RE NOT DEAF ARE YOU, GRANDPA LAUGHINGMAN?

I think a lot of blokes are upset at the thought that their behaviour may be deemed unacceptable by normal people, and inwardly believe themselves that it is undesirable behaviour, but seek to convince themselves otherwise by trying to convince others.

SC

[MJP]

Mark45, Absolutely irrelevant. Culturally back then men were aware of the reality of the situation. So no harm done. Today, we send completely unknowing and naive men into sitiuations and cultures they are unfamiliar with. Then we have trouble.

And UG, I am alone and lonely now, I know I'll eventually meet someone and no longer be alone. I'm just saying men are forgetting that "too good to be true" means just that, if they find instant love easily, well there is something wrong. With patience and work you hopefully find someone true.

You all misunderstand me anyway, nothing wrong with paying for it, nothing wrong with buying companionship. The problem is falling for the illusion. Getting your heart involved when you should not. That is why I don't like the whole mess I see here in Thailand. Thai men dont seem to have a problem falling in love with and marrying prostitutes so why do we? Because we havent a clue.

Laughing man I assume you have little education about cultural awareness, like no formal education in sociology, cultural anthropology, history or anything that would make you aware of the history of the human race more than 20 years ago.

100 years ago or 200 years ago or 500 years ago men were still wondering about if the earth was round. My grandfather thought the moon landing was faked. You can read the dairies of WW II soldiers in Singapore, Burma and Thailand. They didn't have a clue what was going on here.

The current person coming to Thailand with all the information on the net and books available would have to be a buffalo not to know about the bright light girls in Thailand.

Laughing man, it is you who doesn't have a clue but the problem is you don't have a clue what you don't have a clue about.

What you don't have a clue about and what everybody else who is sane here has a clue about including the Thai guys is this, "you are always going to pay for it. Maybe now, maybe later. Maybe in money, maybe in blood, sweat and tears. The only person who ever loved you was your mom and even that is was not a sure thing."

Stop worrying about paying for it and start worrying about how much it costs. That is something you can deal with. Marriage has a different price than short time. That's a fact. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

Some guys like the installment plan others like the pay as you go plan. Some guys lease some guys buy. That is the way of the world. Always has been. Unless you are really lucky or like to live alone you will end up giving all or most all of your money to a woman. Don't feel bad about it. Try to have some fun spending it.

. . . or forget all about it and become a monk . . . or a gardener . . . or buy a big motorbike and ride that instead.

[GuestHouse]

What you don’t have a clue about and what everybody else who is sane here has a clue about including the Thai guys is this, “you are always going to pay for it. Maybe now, maybe later. Maybe in money, maybe in blood, sweat and tears. The only person who ever loved you was your mom and even that is was not a sure thing.”

This kind of stuff is normally deserving of Doctor Patient Confidentiality.

[Boo]

I think the discussion of prostitution has run it's course. The op is talking about his reasons for leaving LOS not the reasons for many to stay

[ChiangMaiFun]

The real truth is you cannot find true and complete happiness in 'another' only within yourself - and, seriously, that really IS the trick.

[mark45y]

The real truth is you cannot find true and complete happiness in 'another' only within yourself - and, seriously, that really IS the trick.

If that was the case, why would the OP have to leave Thailand?

[MJP]

The real truth is you cannot find true and complete happiness in 'another' only within yourself - and, seriously, that really IS the trick.

Oh that is so, sooooo true.

Unless you have kids. Then it's all about them. Actually makes life complete.

[Hawkseye]

safe travels my friend

finally someone is honest about thailand and the culture,,i lived for on 3yrs,,that was enough,,,lots of old farlangs paying for their young brides,,treating the family to save face,,comon guys what planet do you live

just a quickie,,,one day i was asked to do the so called buda day at the temple,,thought well yeah,,give it a go,,anyway 1 hour before leaving the whole tribe of leeches turn up with pick up to go,,i get on motorbike to go and the so called g/friend says lets go by car,,when i ask why,,only 2kms she reply's she wants to travel with mum and the many thousand that turned up to go,,thinking to myself and looking at saying good bye to 3000bt i thought &lt;deleted&gt;?k it and said i'm not going,,watched the many scroungers put there head down and sulk off,,the driver even asked for 300bt for fuel as travelled 200metres down the road,,after a great arguement and people telling me i have black heart and have lost my face,,i kept my money,,went into town,,booked a hotel and had a proper holiday

this is one of many stories i can tell,,the morals in thailand on a scale of 1-10 are -50,,again good on yer,,safe journeys and try to save your son,,don't worry to much about the leeches as they only care of one thing,,and i think we all know what that is

It seems you only joined TV after you had done your three years here and left - if you'd had enough why bother to join a forum based in Thailand about all things Thai - just to slag it off as you are doing here? You look to be someone who came here and failed, what were you doing for three years - teaching English? Having failed in that and in your relationship with your so called girl friend (not to mention your cultural experience at the Temple and the opportunity to ride back with her parents) you think it gives you the right to write such rubbish as this! The Farlang [sic] community in Thailand is clearly better off without you and any others like you who leave and then throw mud.

[NixPille]

I have lived and worked in 8 countries for more than a year (i.e. settled for long enough to have some idea about the place) and travelled in many more.

One thing is certain: Everywhere locals and expats alike complain about the country going down hill - expats mostly also see their home country going the same way. Things used to be much better in earlier days.

As we can all see during these heated discussions, Thailand isn't any different.

Rarely these discussions ever shed new light on anything.

[dmax]

BAD FOOD ? are you for real, adios, bye bye , good ridance im sure you wont be missed !!