Settling In

[Pudgimelon]

Recently I've been thinking about the differences between other ethnic groups and the "farang" group in Thailand.

Thai-Chinese, Thai-Indians, Thai-Burmese, Thai-Malay, and others have all carved out niches for themselves in Thailand and some have even integrated themselves so well into Thai culture that their holidays are celebrated by all Thai and their descendants can rise to high heights of political and economic power.

But Thai-Farang and Farangs living in Thailand? Well, some have settled in, but I get the impression that the majority still see themselves as temporary residents here, and the government certainly makes it difficult to settle here permenantly.

It seems to me that a majority of farang do not come to Thailand for economic opportunity, though it certainly exists here for those willing to work hard for it. Many farang do come here to improve their standard of living, but usually they are retirees hoping to stretch their pensions a bit further.

I can't help recall the stories of my grandfather who was a first generation immigrant to America. Although he took great pride in his ethnicity, he took even greater pride in his American citizenship. And I can guarantee that my Dad never considered himself to be "half-American", even though if you think about it, he was (since my Grandfather had immigrated, but my Grandmother was from a 250-year old American family).

Of course, America is such a hodge-podge of ethnicities that nobody really cares if you're half-Polish or half French or quarter-Dutch. But my Dad did grow up in a mix-culture household, just like many half-Thai children do here, and yet he was fully assimilated into American culture. I don't think the same can be said for our descendants here.

I can't help but wonder what kind of Thailand my children and grandchildren will grow up in. Will it ever be, "their country"? Or will they be perpetually seen as outsiders?

It took the Chinese over 100 years to gain some degree of "Thai-ness" here, and even today they get panned sometimes by ethnic Central Thais (the pure-bloods).

The Chinese came here in the late 1800s and early 1900s and built themselves up from ricksaw pullers and cane field workers to eventually produce offspring who are now captains of industry, finance and politics.

They did so through a lot of hard work, and in spite of a lot of discrimination, but I think the biggest reason they succeeded (where other groups have failed) is because they stuck together as a community and help each other out.

Certainly we face discrimination, just like the Chinese did, but ours is of a different type. The Chinese had to fight their way up from the bottom rung of society, and their only desire was to make a better life for their children. Farang, on the other hand, seem to suffer the stereotypes that were developed during the Vietnam war (sex-crazed, rich tourists looking for dark-skinned 'exotic' girls).

Worse than getting overcharged at national parks and swindled by tuk-tuk drivers, this stereotype means that most Thais just don't take us seriously as members of their community.

We aren't afforded any political power, we can't own property and we can't gain citizenship. And every time some dirtbag from Stateside gets himself arrested for fondling kids or every time some drunken blowhard with two bargirls on each arm makes a nuisance of himself at a local restaurant, it only serves to re-enforce those stereotypes and perpetuate the myth that farang are only here for a good time.

Our children are often treated as novelties (my friend's kids constantly complain about being touched by strangers whenever they go out because Thais suddenly turn into cheek-squeezing Aunties whenever they see a half-Thai kid with brown hair). Often their best opportunities for financial success lie outside Thailand or in the entertainment industry (again the novelty factor).

One hundred years from now, the Thai-farang population will be just as big as the Thai-Chinese population is now. And what I have been asking myself lately is: What kind of legacy will we leave for our descendants???

The Chinese can look back on their heritage with pride and recall their ancestors trials and triumphs. Generations later, many Chinese still make a pilgramage to Koh Si Chang (kind of a Thai Ellis Island) to pay respect to their ancestors at the famous Phaw Khao Yai Shrine.

But our great-great-grandchildren? What will they have to look back on? Pattaya? Pat Pong? Nana Plaza?

How many essentially fatherless Thai-farang children are there in Thailand? As a whole, what kind of economic and social gains are we bequeathing to those children? How many farang live a pseudo-life here, raising families and paying taxes, but never "belonging" in their own village or city. And what happens to the farang whose wife dies? All the property is by necessity in her name, and only a Thai family-member can inherit it. So essentially, he could live and work here for 40 years, and end up with nothing, because all his assets and businesses were in her name.

At some point, the sex-tourism thing will fade away (or move on to Cambodia), that's just a fact of life. All things must fade and die away. So eventually the steady stream of playboy-farang will dry to just a trickle, and all that will be left are those farang who decided to stay on and make a go of it here in Thailand.

When that happens, we'll be just another ethnic minority in this country. Right now, the "gift" that we bequeath our children is the "gift" of living in a household with a native-English speaker. That gives our kids a big step-up in school and the job market. But eventually, as our children's children start to marry into Thai households, that "gift" will fade.

So what else can we bequeath to our great-grandchildren? What economic opportunities or political voice can we give them? What kind of niche can we carve out for ourselves here? Surely we can give them something more than just "English", can't we?

I'd like to think that eventually, a Thai-farang community will grow together in Thailand and that it'll be just as strong and influential as the Thai-Chinese community.

I'd like eventually to see Thailand become our country too.

[Boon Mee]

I'd like to think that eventually, a Thai-farang community will grow together in Thailand and that it'll be just as strong and influential as the Thai-Chinese community.

Good post, Pudgimelon but as Rudyard Kipling so eloquently put it:

"East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet"

Us farangs will always be different in many respects to the Asians in Thailand.

[The_Other_Mac]

Interesting subject...

I wouldn't say the Chinese became integrated by sticking together. Unlike most places in the world, the Chinese in Thailand have spread out, changed their names, intermarried, learnt the language and forgot their own. Now that's making an effort. It seems to me that the real way to be considered Thai, by Thai people, is to speak fluent perfect Thai. And yes, knowing the culture and understanding Thai thinking, but these almost go hand-in-hand with reaching that level of fluency in the language.

It is difficult but not impossible to get PR, and almost but still not impossible to get citizenship. Of course a major "stumbling block" is the requirement to demonstrate fluency in the language... It makes sense really. But a visa isn't really the issue - illegal immigrants to the US may never be granted citizenship, but their children will, and so are ours.

The idea that luk-kreungs can only find work in the entertainment industry is one of those Lonely Planet myths. Many entertainers are/were luk-kreung does not mean you can deduce the reverse. They are everywhere, I suspect the novelty is wearing off but then they also happen to have the attibutes that are considered good-looking. By the way, Senator Meechai Veeravaidya (the condom guy) is half-Scottish.

[PeaceBlondie]

Pudgi - opening post is too long. Nice subject, anyway.

If I lived here 20 years and got Permanent Residency and Citizenship, I'd be Thai. My son-in-law had a grandmother who immigrated from Mexico and lived in the USA for about 70 years without getting citizenship or learning English.

It's hard to generalize about immigrants, but I've noticed that, generally, people move to another country for two intermingled reasons: greater economic reward for hard work, and greater civil liberties.

[Heng]

Interesting subject...

I wouldn't say the Chinese became integrated by sticking together. Unlike most places in the world, the Chinese in Thailand have spread out, changed their names, intermarried, learnt the language and forgot their own.

Disagree. (agree with the OP)

When new immigrant Chinese walk into Chinatown, find their name-place association, they usually find opportunity, anywhere in the world. For the poor, they'll at least walk out with a bottom rung job washing dishes or stir frying vegatables/cooking Mexican food/or making falafel... for the capable or wealthy, they'll soon find themselves in business. Property ownership soon follows. Back in Texas, we hosted about half a dozen non-blood relatives (not "real" family) and also gave "off the boat" opportunities to several dozen non-related immigrants. For personal benefit, for the most part, yes. But also because we do tend to stick together. And that's talking non-family. For family members, there's always a place to stay, work to be shared, and often business opportunities to be had. Sure, there are exceptions as it's not easy to generalize about a billion people, or more specifically 50-80 million overseas Chinese, but that's the overall trend.

How do falang in distant lands (like Pattaya, Chaiyapum, or Udon) welcome each other? Suspicion? Territoriality?

[Rags]

Unlike most places in the world, the Chinese in Thailand have spread out, changed their names, intermarried, learnt the language and forgot their own. Now that's making an effort. It seems to me that the real way to be considered Thai, by Thai people, is to speak fluent perfect Thai. And yes, knowing the culture and understanding Thai thinking, but these almost go hand-in-hand with reaching that level of fluency in the language.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting Topic.

Tend to agree with Mac. Very few members of the Farang community in Thailand make much of an effort (if any) to assimilate into Thai Society. Until this happens we will never be considered by the Thais to be true immigrants, rather just long staying holidaymakers.

Rags

[Heng]

Interesting Topic.

Tend to agree with Mac.  Very few members of the Farang community in Thailand make much of an effort (if any) to assimilate into Thai Society.  Until this happens we will never be considered by the Thais to be true immigrants, rather just long staying holidaymakers.

Rags

Of course falangs are assimulating. What happens to second generation "falangs?" Luk-krungs. They either go home, become entertainers, change their names to Thai names (like the Chinese), or build next to nothing for the next the generation. Next generation? Falang quadroon? Falang octaroon? The issue is that there is no "falang community" after the second generation.

[The_Other_Mac]

How do falang in distant lands (like Pattaya, Chaiyapum, or Udon) welcome each other?  Suspicion?  Territoriality? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes.

My point was about the Chinese in Thailand, as opposed to the Chinese in the rest of the world. In your reply you showed how your family helped others in America, so you've only helped my point.

I imagine any middle-class Chinese turning up in Yaowaraj without speaking Thai, are treated as tourists to be milked, but fair enough, I'm sure in the past most Chinese were helped settle in. In the long term... well, can you speak or read any Chinese? Even if you do, you have to admit most younger Thai-Chinese know about as much as they learn from F4.

[Heng]

How do falang in distant lands (like Pattaya, Chaiyapum, or Udon) welcome each other?   Suspicion?  Territoriality? 

Yes.

My point was about the Chinese in Thailand, as opposed to the Chinese in the rest of the world. In your reply you showed how your family helped others in America, so you've only helped my point.

I imagine any middle-class Chinese turning up in Yaowaraj without speaking Thai, are treated as tourists to be milked, but fair enough, I'm sure in the past most Chinese were helped settle in. In the long term... well, can you speak or read any Chinese? Even if you do, you have to admit most younger Thai-Chinese know about as much as they learn from F4.

Actually my post was an example to what I feel is the trend for Chinese worldwide. Many of the most recent "Thai Chinese" are from Singapore and Taiwan, Fujien/Hokkien Chinese... as opposed to one hundred years ago where most were from southern China, Teochiu, Hainanese, and Hakka. And this is directly related to the fact that they are welcomed here by the ruling Teochiu Chinese.

The "younger" generation of Thai Chinese in many cases are already 90 years old or ashes. And yes, most of them never set foot in China. There's no need because they brought "China" over with them.

[Dara]

Interesting issue raised here. During the early part of the century, farangs had a fairly close-knit community, lived mainly colonial style and didn't mixed with the Thais that much. Inter-marriage did occur, and the children, though often times were educated in their own special schools, eventually got assimilated into the Thai society if they remained in Thailand. Many became prominant and well accepted, though had a hard time. A book on growing up as a luk krueng during this period made an interesting observation that children born to foreign mothers were looked upon more kindly than those who had foreign fathers. Children whose fathers left the family behind fared the worst.

As to what legacy the current farang communities can leave behind, IMHO, if somehow foreigners could stop seeing Thailand as a place for sex and drugs where anything goes, there's a better chance for the family oriented folks to create an environment in which their descendants can live with pride of their mixed heritage. It'll take some time, but it could happen.

"Imagine"....

[Rags]

Interesting Topic.

Tend to agree with Mac.  Very few members of the Farang community in Thailand make much of an effort (if any) to assimilate into Thai Society.  Until this happens we will never be considered by the Thais to be true immigrants, rather just long staying holidaymakers.

Rags

Of course falangs are assimulating. What happens to second generation "falangs?" Luk-krungs. They either go home, become entertainers, change their names to Thai names (like the Chinese), or build next to nothing for the next the generation. Next generation? Falang quadroon? Falang octaroon? The issue is that there is no "falang community" after the second generation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you really think that the majority of long-term Farangs currently living in Thailand have immersed themselves in, and fully understand Thai society, language and culture?

Assimilation does not have to involve interbreeding. There are certain races that actively discourage marriage outside of their ethnic group, and yet they are still considered to be immigrants by the societies in which they live.

Rags

[Pudgimelon]

As to what legacy the current farang communities can leave behind, IMHO, if somehow foreigners could stop seeing Thailand as a place for sex and drugs where anything goes, there's a better chance for the family oriented folks to create an environment in which their descendants can live with pride of their mixed heritage.  It'll take some time, but it could happen. 

"Imagine"....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Legacy.

An important word and something not many people consider when moving to Thailand.

Most people come here for personal reasons (and that's not necessarily a bad thing, I did too after all, and I'm no hedonist), and few people give much thought as to what kind of imprint they want to leave after they've gone (either back to their homeland or after they die).

Some people have a rather "hands-off" attitude. They don't think it's proper to meddle with Thai culture. Or they think it's condescending to wish for changes. To that I say, "hogwash". This isn't some pre-Warp civilization on Star Trek, so the Prime Directive doesn't apply. Many of us live here, have families here, and pay taxes here. We have every right to demand political representation and promote changes we feel are positive. Thais don't have to listen, but that's no reason to remain silent.

Our legacy to date has not been a particularly "honorable" one. Yes, farang have made tremendous contributions to Thai culture, but those contributions are largely ignored by many Thai educators and those contributions are also overshadowed by less-than-appealing actions of the party crowd.

I can't help but compare the differences between the waves of Irish, Italian, Chinese, Mexican, East European, and African immigrants who came to America and made it a much, much better place. They built infrastructure, they started businesses and fueled the economy, they contributed to the culture, they integrated their families, and they loved their adopted home as much as their birthland.

The Thai-Chinese here have certainly integrated into this culture a lot more than the Chinese living in New York or San Francisco's Chinatown. But at the same time, they gave economic and social opportunities to others in their ethnic group. They have Business Associations that enable opportunity and give newcomers and descendents a leg up.

But we don't. There is very little bonding of the farang community beyond the barstool and that's a real shame. Our descendants here won't thank us if we leave them with a legacy of negative stereotypes.

If all our children change their names or move back overseas, what will be our legacy here? Will our descendants eventually disapate and our legacy be nothing more than a footnote in Thai history books?

I'd like my great-grandchildren to hold their heads high and be proud to carry my name. I'd like them to look back upon their farang ancesters and be able to list off all the positive contributions we made to their Thailand.

Just as the Irish-American holds his head a little higher on St. Pat's Day because he knows his ancestors built practically every bridge and skyscraper in New York and Boston; or the African-American can cite George Washington Carver and Martin Luther King, Jr. as great Americans; or the Chinese-American can recall the struggles of his ancestors building the great Intercontential railroad and how that single contribution almost single-handedly produced the modern American nation.

It would be a wonderful legacy to leave my great-grandchildren.

[Rags]

As to what legacy the current farang communities can leave behind, IMHO, if somehow foreigners could stop seeing Thailand as a place for sex and drugs where anything goes, there's a better chance for the family oriented folks to create an environment in which their descendants can live with pride of their mixed heritage.  It'll take some time, but it could happen. 

"Imagine"....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Legacy.

An important word and something not many people consider when moving to Thailand.

Most people come here for personal reasons (and that's not necessarily a bad thing, I did too after all, and I'm no hedonist), and few people give much thought as to what kind of imprint they want to leave after they've gone (either back to their homeland or after they die).

Some people have a rather "hands-off" attitude. They don't think it's proper to meddle with Thai culture. Or they think it's condescending to wish for changes. To that I say, "hogwash". This isn't some pre-Warp civilization on Star Trek, so the Prime Directive doesn't apply. Many of us live here, have families here, and pay taxes here. We have every right to demand political representation and promote changes we feel are positive. Thais don't have to listen, but that's no reason to remain silent.

Our legacy to date has not been a particularly "honorable" one. Yes, farang have made tremendous contributions to Thai culture, but those contributions are largely ignored by many Thai educators and those contributions are also overshadowed by less-than-appealing actions of the party crowd.

I can't help but compare the differences between the waves of Irish, Italian, Chinese, Mexican, East European, and African immigrants who came to America and made it a much, much better place. They built infrastructure, they started businesses and fueled the economy, they contributed to the culture, they integrated their families, and they loved their adopted home as much as their birthland.

The Thai-Chinese here have certainly integrated into this culture a lot more than the Chinese living in New York or San Francisco's Chinatown. But at the same time, they gave economic and social opportunities to others in their ethnic group. They have Business Associations that enable opportunity and give newcomers and descendents a leg up.

But we don't. There is very little bonding of the farang community beyond the barstool and that's a real shame. Our descendants here won't thank us if we leave them with a legacy of negative stereotypes.

If all our children change their names or move back overseas, what will be our legacy here? Will our descendants eventually disapate and our legacy be nothing more than a footnote in Thai history books?

I'd like my great-grandchildren to hold their heads high and be proud to carry my name. I'd like them to look back upon their farang ancesters and be able to list off all the positive contributions we made to their Thailand.

Just as the Irish-American holds his head a little higher on St. Pat's Day because he knows his ancestors built practically every bridge and skyscraper in New York and Boston; or the African-American can cite George Washington Carver and Martin Luther King, Jr. as great Americans; or the Chinese-American can recall the struggles of his ancestors building the great Intercontential railroad and how that single contribution almost single-handedly produced the modern American nation.

It would be a wonderful legacy to leave my great-grandchildren.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nicely put, and certainly food for thought.....

Edited May 12, 2005 by Rags

[suegha]

Might our lack of integration be due to our lask of 'wanting' to integrate? Many people I know (Iunderstand there are exceptions to this) have lived in Thailand for years and have made no real effort to learn Thai! Or to understand Thai culture.

Our lack of community in Thailand may be due to our current lack of community back in the UK, Europe, Australia, etc. Many of the communities cited are those that have (or have had in the past) a strong community feel. As an Irishman I have known many people who moved abroad, many of whom relate the story of arriving and heading straight for the 'Irish' community, who helped them out, gave them jobs, etc. That was years ago, I'm not sure if I moved to a new country for a new life if I could even find an Irish community!

What do farangs from other countries think? Does anywhere have an established community to visit for asistance/advice/friendship/employment? Or have we lost that sense of community.

[samran]

I think the issue here is that Thailand doesn't generally produce a second generation - ie children of 'farang' immigrants. These are the generation who tend to mix in with their native surrounds while their parents find it hard to.

Where as places where we all come from have had waves of immigrants who have intergrated and carve out their niche in society, Thailand hasn't really had that with the Farang immigrants, mostly because the demographic is all wrong (ie expat worker, retiree or wondering rouge...all who don't produce a second generation who remain int thailand).

However, if you search hard enough, there are farangs who grew up and lived their lives in thailand. My cousins mother in law is one. An Austrian now in her 60's who married a Thai man way back when. She speaks perfect Thai and is well intergrated into thai hi-society.

Their kids are more Thai than not, but are able more western orientated than their thai contemporaries as well.

I think the best guess we can make on how farangs would integrate is to examine the Indian Thais. If you look closely, most are very western orienated, speak fluent english yet able to navigate Thai society quite well. Dr Siamwalla, cheif economist at the NESDB is one such example. There was also another Indian/thai (forget his name) who was the Chief Justice of the supreme court up until his retirement 2 or 3 years ago.

The list goes on, including many farangs who grew up on LOS, then educated overseas for a bit, but came back to LOS for work. You'd never notice them though, because they don't stick out.

[sadman]

I think that perhaps we need to take a long look at ourselves when it comes to assimilation. Talk to many Americans and they will tell you they are Irish, or Scots, or Italian etc - when in fact their grandparents were, and they themselves have never left the US (although the US permits immigrants to become citizens without too much difficulty).

To assimilate fully, we need to take on board language, culture, traditions and so on - and consider ourselves Thai (although at 6'4", 18 stone and with ginger hair, I don't always pass as Thai).

As regards ethnicity, the visible difference may always prevent full assimilation.

"All we need is a great big melting pot

Big enough for the world and all its got

We'll keep stirring for a hundred years or more,

And turn out coffee-coloured children by the score"

Blue Mink, 1971

[custard]

I think we have quite a big farang community in Thailand. Patpong, Nana, Cowboy, Pattaya etc. are all dominated by farangs !

[OxfordWill]

It's true that as a race, or genotype, us farangs basically distrust one another from the outset. When you find a fellow farang who is positively welcoming its a genuine surprise a joy that you remember probably all month. If we all just were a little more welcoming then yes, we'd have a little more trouble now and then, but the potential for 'pulling together to improve things' is huge.

[chownah]

Legacy.

..............

An important word and something not many people consider when moving to Thailand.

.............................

I can't help but compare the differences between the waves of Irish, Italian, Chinese, Mexican, East European, and African immigrants who came to America and made it a much, much better place.  They built infrastructure, they started businesses and fueled the economy, they contributed to the culture, they integrated their families, and they loved their adopted home as much as their birthland.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I started out thinking I knew what you were talking about but upon thinking a bit more on the topic I really am not sure what it is. Can you give me an example of what is the 'legacy' of an Italian American? an African American? I'm trying to imagine what 'legacy' farangs could possibly have....and I'm not having much success. I'm beginning to think that this 'legacy' is sort of a romantic notion without real referents in the wider world.....but I'm probably just not getting it.

Another point. In your post you talk about building infrastructure, starting businesses, and fueling the economy. Its difficult for foreigners to build some kind of 'legacy' this way in that we are not allowed to do these things. When all the immigrants came to America everyone was allowed to work at whatever job they could do and they were encouraged to get citizenship. Compare this to Thailand.

Another point. The groups of immigrants you mention each had a common cultural experience. Foreigners do not have this unifying factor. If some foreigner should in some way build some great enterprise in Thailand, I will not identify with it.

[custard]

There seems to be one thing all other ethnic minorities can do to be fully integrated into the Thai society: speak Thai. Most farangs just can't be arsed learning it.

If you can't speak the language, then I'm afraid you'll always be classified as foreigners as with those immigrants in the UK.

[Heng]

Do you really think that the majority of long-term Farangs currently living in Thailand have immersed themselves in, and fully understand Thai society, language and culture? 

Assimilation does not have to involve interbreeding.  There are certain races that actively discourage marriage outside of their ethnic group, and yet they are still considered to be immigrants by the societies in which they live.

Rags

Of course not. Neither have the Thai Chinese or Thai Indians.

I didn't say that falangs who intend to spend the rest of their lives here are not immigrants. They most certainly are. I was merely saying that collectively, or even individually according to nationality, they are among the least successful immigrants here over generations. Of course, this is only if one considers a "successful" immigrant population one that is self sufficient and expands its economic and political power base over time.

[wolf5370]

I agree with Custard. The first step must be learning the language fluently - not just "kor bia song kwat krup" etc, but truley fluent. Add to that reading and writing Thai script - it really isn't that hard (actually I found learning to read was/is easier than speaking and certainly helps).

The state could help to of course, but that will not happen until we make ourselves 'look' like part of the landscape. OK we will never blend in completely, but when enough of us can blend in culturally and communicate and function within the community as Thais (or at least other assimilated 'immigrant' groups), then it will be easier to make our presence felt in other than 'long-term holiday maker'.

We can bring much to the country, as immigrigrants have, and do, to our home countries. We have to give the impression though that we are here to integrate and not just take out the country what we want. Our reputation in the country is not good. Most indiviuals here (at ThaiVisa/expats) I would imagine are the contradiction to that retuation, but we are not the majority (or at least if we are, we are a quiet one comparitively).

Maybe we are simply our own worst enermy in this regard and we make it easy to be excluded (or thought of as non-inclusive). Just think how angry wer all get (search for posts!) about farangs that come here with criminal intent or thugish attitudes. That's our advert guys!

[wolf5370]

Small point on being 'successful immigrants here over generations'.

Is this because it is easier to spot a Thai-Indian than it is a Farang-noi? Thai-Chinese often advertise the fact at every possible oppurtunity. Is it perhaps that after a generation or two, thwe features merge and we are less conspicuous than other immigrants (either by nature or look).

Maybe we are actually MORE successful over time in that 'we' are no longer seen as an immigrant group at all by this point.

[Heng]

Maybe we are actually MORE successful over time in that 'we' are no longer seen as an immigrant group at all by this point.

That's one positive way to look at it. Now if only these "undercover" brothers helped their pastier cousins to more rights.

[parhorne]

as a tentacle to this thread, try reading "lords of the rim" by stirling seagrave, this book is real piece of research on the spread of the expat chinese, with some very in-depth info regarding the chinese here in thailand, naming names , all the juicy stuff. it reads like fiction buut no one has ever tried to contradict his information, although he has had many threats against him. can find the book at any asia books or bookazine, you wont put it down !

[Pudgimelon]

There seems to be one thing all other ethnic minorities can do to be fully integrated into the Thai society: speak Thai.  Most farangs just can't be arsed learning it.

If you can't speak the language, then I'm afraid you'll always be classified as foreigners as with those immigrants in the UK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Learning the language is key. I know people who've lived here for 18 years and they've never bothered to learn Thai. You're right, they live in there own little bubble-world and are completely outside Thai culture and society.

[phuketsiam]

I don't think farangs can be considered an ethic group, i know the Thai's do this, but Aus, US, SA, and all the european countries have very different cultures. The are indians in UK who are far more british than say an american, but in Thailand one is an Indian and one a farang. the other point is that because farangs are dicriminated againsts for work and investment purposes, serious achievers are more likely to favour other countries, Thailand really is a haven for the low lifers and ex-cons, farangs who want to build a future here and live within the law find it more rewarding and easier in other countries, regardless of how well they speak Thai

[chownah]

It seems to me that the people who actually make the move to the new country do not assimilate into the society....it is their children. I live in a small village and have no knowledge of what life is like for the children of people who have "immigrated". Can someone tell me what their impressions are of life in Thailand for the children who have a western parent? Is there a bias against them when they mature?

[wolf5370]

Can someone tell me what their impressions are of life in Thailand for the children who have a western parent? Is there a bias against them when they mature?

I think there is bias for them rather than against. Just look how many Farang-noi's re on TV or in the movies - the lighter skin and bridge to the nose is seen as attractive. They are often thought of as better educated and richer even when they are not (maybe just my opinion, but Its what I see).

[Dara]

I agree with all who said that being fluent in the language is one of the most basic thing that an immigrant person/family can do. Living with an open mind can allow one to maintain the "core" ethnicity while melding with the local flavors.

Instead of being "every man for himself", if foreign groups can accept themselves as part of the "International" community - being "citizen of the world," transcending cultures, race, etc., the inclusive group can be very strong and supportive towards each other. It ishould be possible - the apparent example is how this group is operating here - it is obvious that civilized people everywhere can join together, agree to disagree peacefully, and help each other the best that they can.

I've also been thinking a lot about the "legacy" concept brought up in the beginning - what can an International community do to leave an admirable trail...

Someone mentioned bringing good things from the home countries and IMHO, there are many things that the Thais can benefit positively from other cultures:

>Environments - bring and practice what you know and incorporate local wisdoms in everyday living. Make it known that there's a more civilized way of life than raping the lands for comfort and pleasure.

>The Arts - rallly to establish appreciation for museums and other cultural venues. For example, rally to financially support museum projects, etc; learn the true meaning of Songkran and help eliminate the hype that brings in ugliness to the occasion; introduce valued cultural events/occasions from your own background, etc. If you are longer termers, the future of LOS is yours and your loved ones, is it not?

Lots more to think about and to make happen.....