One For The Foreign Teachers...

[lennoxgilby]

I have a little time on my hands over the next few days, what with the Taksin verdict, (I will be staying home tomorrow) and the following monday off work. Based on this I'm going to immortalise my thoughts on the craziness that is the Thai school system...

This is my third year as a teacher in this country and my third school (its taken me this long to find one I like...) The previous three have all been different with respect to my duties and the curriculum, however a pattern has emerged which as any teacher will know, is the blueprint for every educational institution within the borders of this great land. I'm talking specifically about the guidelines issued by the ministry of education regarding pass/fail procedure and how it is to be implemented.

In very simple terms - each and every student must pass regardless of ability or effort (and this is non negotiable.) The sooner that we (as falang teachers) realise this and start to tow the line, the easier our lives become because the stark reality is that we have absolutely zero ability to affect the system, and incidentally neither do the Thai's. I was in a meeting just the other day when the subject was brought up and was told by the director in no uncertain terms that it was out of her hands. All this begs the question: why bother testing students at all, if the result is always the same...??

I won't go into my views on the reasons for the above, however I would simply say I find it quite sad that a truly wonderful country such as Thailand (which promotes such moral values as respect and duty) can at the same time, display total disregard towards the potential of its younger generation (whose skills and intellect provide the basis for the future.)

Anyway, ce la vie!! So long as it remains the land of smiles, I'm a happy man...!!!

[Ijustwannateach]

Topic moved.

[lennoxgilby]

Topic moved.

thanks that was quicker than I expected!!

[Benjie]

Is a world where everyone is a success really so very bad, Surely its this attitude that half of us have moved over here for.

Surely that's what grades are for? Everyone can pass and then grades differentiate the excellent.

[elkangorito]

To the OP...the mentality of which you speak, extends to many other areas in Thai life.

I cite 4 situations;

1] A circuit breaker kept tripping out on the 3rd floor of our building (the entire floor was powerless). The Thais did nothing about it although they did complain amongst each other. Upon investigation, I had found "bad practice" (the phases were not balanced at all) to be the culprit. I then spoke to the head of the electrical dept & made some suggestions. Work was carried out within 2 days but they replaced the circuit breaker with a 2nd hand unit (dangerous).

Outcome: one of the existing cables is badly burnt. I notified certain people about this but nothing has been done although a lovely new senseless room has been built in the meantime (obviously part of an earlier budget proposal).

2] The airconditioning in our office was causing the lights to flicker (I knew this). Within 30 minutes, the circuit breaker supplying the a/c unit had tripped on overload. This was reported & "someone" (an a/c teacher) arrived & immediately switched on this circuit breaker against my suggestion. The result was a BANG, clouds of smoke coming from the a/c unit & the same circuit breaker tripped. The circuit breaker will not be replaced even though it has obviously suffered a high current fault.

There was another a/c unit next to this one, which had not been operable for some time. Nobody paid attention to this at all. As a result, our office is no longer airconditioned & a possibly good a/c unit is sitting there...doing nothing. One of my Thai colleagues, who trusts western technology, has asked me if I will "fault find" the problem with the idle a/c unit. She doesn't trust Thai technicians.

3] 2 days ago, one of my colleagues asked me to look at yet another a/c unit. It was leaking water all over the floor beneath the evaporator. After removing a few screws & looking at things, she asked me what I thought the problem was. I told her that the people who had installed this unit did not provide enough "runoff" in the condensate pipework & that the pipework may be blocked. Upon further investigation, I found that the way the unit had been mounted on the ceiling caused it to drop by 5mm at the front, thereby causing the water to not "runoff".

4] Light switches in many classrooms are now faulty. I can hear the arcing sometimes (risk of fire). As a result, all new buildings/rooms do not have light switches...lights & all power to the room is now controlled by circuit breakers. This is a completely stupid idea as circuit breakers have a lifetime of a certain number of mechanical & electrical operations. They are expensive to replace compared to simple switches. Simple light switches also have a certain number of mechanical & electrical operations but are quite cheap & easy to replace compared to a circuit breaker.

From what I have noticed, Thais are quite adept at many things, however, they sadly lack in the department of "detail". It's usually the detail that catches you out. This goes for teaching as well.

The above 4 situations were as a direct result of poor teaching practice & a lack of knowledge or a refusal to be enlightened. This is simply the tip of the iceberg with regards to the wonderful Thai education system.

Thailand will never be the "hub" of anything until they pull their heads out of the sand & realise several things;

1] Thai students suffer academic overload...taught too much in too little time. They learn stuff they don't need to know.

2] Passing an academic test has no relevance to doing a good "hands on" job.

3] "Helping" each other is nothing but fooling yourself.

4] Planning is not a sin...nor will it turn Thailand into the equivalent of the western world, as it is today.

5] Mediocrity is directly connected to "culture".

6] Saving face will forever hold back the people who really wish to be true unto themselves.

The idea of this post was to reflect how poor teaching practices (& attitudes) affect things in the real world.

Edited February 25, 2010 by elkangorito

[crudski]

Is a world where everyone is a success really so very bad, Surely its this attitude that half of us have moved over here for.

Would you be saying the same thing if you was being operated on by a doctor who had passed all his exams,when really he hadn't but was passed anyway due to the no fail policy,i think not.

[PeaceBlondie]

Students in Thailand are taught. Usually, wrong. We cannot change that except to try to do our job right, which is often almost impossible. This is a cheap country to retire in.

[Loaded]

To the OP...the mentality of which you speak, extends to many other areas in Thai life.

I cite 4 situations;

1] A circuit breaker kept tripping out on the 3rd floor of our building (the entire floor was powerless). The Thais did nothing about it although they did complain amongst each other. Upon investigation, I had found "bad practice" (the phases were not balanced at all) to be the culprit. I then spoke to the head of the electrical dept & made some suggestions. Work was carried out within 2 days but they replaced the circuit breaker with a 2nd hand unit (dangerous).

Outcome: one of the existing cables is badly burnt. I notified certain people about this but nothing has been done although a lovely new senseless room has been built in the meantime (obviously part of an earlier budget proposal).

2] The airconditioning in our office was causing the lights to flicker (I knew this). Within 30 minutes, the circuit breaker supplying the a/c unit had tripped on overload. This was reported & "someone" (an a/c teacher) arrived & immediately switched on this circuit breaker against my suggestion. The result was a BANG, clouds of smoke coming from the a/c unit & the same circuit breaker tripped. The circuit breaker will not be replaced even though it has obviously suffered a high current fault.

There was another a/c unit next to this one, which had not been operable for some time. Nobody paid attention to this at all. As a result, our office is no longer airconditioned & a possibly good a/c unit is sitting there...doing nothing. One of my Thai colleagues, who trusts western technology, has asked me if I will "fault find" the problem with the idle a/c unit. She doesn't trust Thai technicians.

3] 2 days ago, one of my colleagues asked me to look at yet another a/c unit. It was leaking water all over the floor beneath the evaporator. After removing a few screws & looking at things, she asked me what I thought the problem was. I told her that the people who had installed this unit did not provide enough "runoff" in the condensate pipework & that the pipework may be blocked. Upon further investigation, I found that the way the unit had been mounted on the ceiling caused it to drop by 5mm at the front, thereby causing the water to not "runoff".

4] Light switches in many classrooms are now faulty. I can hear the arcing sometimes (risk of fire). As a result, all new buildings/rooms do not have light switches...lights & all power to the room is now controlled by circuit breakers. This is a completely stupid idea as circuit breakers have a lifetime of a certain number of mechanical & electrical operations. They are expensive to replace compared to simple switches. Simple light switches also have a certain number of mechanical & electrical operations but are quite cheap & easy to replace compared to a circuit breaker.

From what I have noticed, Thais are quite adept at many things, however, they sadly lack in the department of "detail". It's usually the detail that catches you out. This goes for teaching as well.

The above 4 situations were as a direct result of poor teaching practice & a lack of knowledge or a refusal to be enlightened. This is simply the tip of the iceberg with regards to the wonderful Thai education system.

Thailand will never be the "hub" of anything until they pull their heads out of the sand & realise several things;

1] Thai students suffer academic overload...taught too much in too little time. They learn stuff they don't need to know.

2] Passing an academic test has no relevance to doing a good "hands on" job.

3] "Helping" each other is nothing but fooling yourself.

4] Planning is not a sin...nor will it turn Thailand into the equivalent of the western world, as it is today.

5] Mediocrity is directly connected to "culture".

6] Saving face will forever hold back the people who really wish to be true unto themselves.

The idea of this post was to reflect how poor teaching practices (& attitudes) affect things in the real world.

I enjoyed your post - thanks.

[SweatySock]

A few years ago I was asked to grade my students on their ability to comprehend and converse in English.

I completed the task and submitted my results to the head of Department. She reviewed the results (which were not very good) and informed me that in Thailand they use a different method of grading. Instead of starting at 100% and working downwards, it was suggested that I re-submit my results based on their method which was to start at 50% for all students and work upwards.

This included students who had even failed to attend the course.

[Firelily]

Elkangorito, would you mind popping in and fixing our aircon unit? no matter how many mechanics have passed through, it keeps dripping. :-D

[coalminer]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Education-t212798.html

Apparently, not every school handles this curriculum the same way .....

[puipuitom]

A few years ago I was asked to grade my students on their ability to comprehend and converse in English.

in Thailand they use a different method of grading. Instead of starting at 100% and working downwards, it was suggested that I re-submit my results based on their method which was to start at 50% for all students and work upwards. This included students who had even failed to attend the course.

At the end, they think they can understand Ennglish and come in international business, where ..their overseas customerds get so f c..d up with the bad understanding they switch to China, where .. a small but quickly growing group of people, but working in international business, speak PERFECT English AND understand, what their overseas customers need.

My experience since 1976: Thais loose about 90-95 % of their opportunities. Only and only because several countries arouind them were in political turmoil, of even more currupt, Thailand got a chance to develop. Now, China is taking over. In Thailand itsself .. think all second, third and fourth generation Chinese immigrants away, all farang expats, and what is left ? Farmers and factory workers !

[AsiaCheese]

I've heard about the passing-any-test "thing" in Thailand many times before -- but this was probably the first time from an "authoritative" source. I would somehow doubt however that the same principle is applied to universities -- or is it? Even if it weren't, my guess is that "learning machines" (= those capable of memorizing a lot, without actually & intuitively comprehending what they're learning) are going to be the top of the crop -- same same but different.

The negative effects are two-fold and shoot each other in the foot, big time.

1] there is no correlation between passing tests/school levels and knowledge levels, which is very bad news for obvious reasons. There's no way of differentiating between the "know-nots" and "know-nothing-at-alls", and on the same token no way of telling whether someone might have exceeded school expectations.

2] anyone from "up country" trying to get a decent job is usually out of luck, because more often than not, "basic" school levels are all they can show (completely useless, see 1), while employers still insist on lots of papers and grades, if at all possible from secondary/high schools and/or universities (completely useless, see 1).

I see the situation in 2 playing out "live" just now: a very good friend from "the rice fields", with only minimal formal education, is looking for work just now. She's totally polite, very clever, very pretty as a bonus, and her English is on a standard you hardly dare to expect in Thailand -- all that despite minimal formal school training. She had the good luck to have worked as a "go-between and catch-all" for some rich farangs who built themselves a few houses. But that project's finised, so she's looking for new, and halfway intelligent work. But no-one is interested in what she can do, how quick a learner she is or anything like that -- it's papers that count, and she doesn't have those...

Sad for her. And sad for a country that lives with a facade. Unfortunately, there are many more areas where the facade thing applies. Copying things by the look of them is endemic, and if the breaker for the aircon is big enough, that'll do...

[markg]

This is a big problem in schools and something that isnt going to be changed overnight.

Universities and employers know the rules. Anyone with a 50% (passing grade) is known as a fail.

An important question to ask ourselves is this, 'what would you do with the failing students?'

A student is flunking English. What action do you suggest?

Not allow him to go up to the next year? (what if all his other subjects are OK?)

Give him remedial classes (in your own time?)

So what is your suggestion for failing students? Giving them a grade of zero but then taking no further action is the same as giving them a grade of one and taking no action.

This is still a developing country. There isnt money in the budget for specialist teachers, remedial classes, intervention strategies etc etc.

I dont know what the answer is, but after 6 years at the same school, i'm just about to wave off the 'graduates' in M6 - some of whom have come to class 50% of the time, and cannot really string one sentence together.............................

[Firelily]

I don't know about other countries - would be interested though - back home if you fail your assessment (which has both formative an summative components), you need to take a make-up exam at the end of the summer holiday. Kids have about 7 weeks to prepare for that. If it's another fail, repeat the year. So, they are given another (last) chance. Most students are able to pass (genuinely!)

[markg]

I don't know about other countries - would be interested though - back home if you fail your assessment (which has both formative an summative components), you need to take a make-up exam at the end of the summer holiday. Kids have about 7 weeks to prepare for that. If it's another fail, repeat the year. So, they are given another (last) chance. Most students are able to pass (genuinely!)

What you are suggesting Firelily, is a very important point, and it is, i believe, at the very core of what is wrong with the current education system in Thai schools. There is NO incentive to pass tests because the students know from a very early age that no one can fail. Having a 'proper' test, as you suggest, with the possibility of having to repeat the year, is a great incentive for students to try harder. You do of course still have problem of students who are terrible in just a few subjects. Do you make them retake the whole year if they fail just one subject?

I would suggest 'yes'.

When the kids realise that their friends have gone up a year and they have to repeat the year, i think they will pull their fingers out a bit. Their parents and peers will be able to plainly see what is going on.

Its a good idea.

Of course, it wont happen here because of 'saving face'.

In a broader picture, i suggest that 'saving face' is one of the major obstacles preventing the development of Thailand.

[PeaceBlondie]

They learn this before nursery school.

[paulfr]

I suppose the Thai cultural need to save face and to preserve harmony is at the core

of the no fail system here.

But the proverb that "you get out of life what you put in" is independent of culture.

I have had many many students at an expensive school's English Program who

work hard and learn as well as top students in the West.

A few other thoughts ........

1/ The Thai educational culture is geared toward breeding adults who do not

question authority and as such learn by rote memorization, not creative thinking.

Creative thinkers ask questions and this upsets the harmony of the status quo.

2/ Did you know that while it is for different reasons, there is both

no fail and grade inflation at Harvard and many other top US Universities ?

No fail is just an invitation for you to motivate your students to want to learn.

Not easy, but it is better than the negative resignation that you are powerless.

You can't change the culture, but you can influence individual students.

Edited March 1, 2010 by paulfr

[WarpSpeed]

To the OP...the mentality of which you speak, extends to many other areas in Thai life.

I cite 4 situations;

1] A circuit breaker kept tripping out on the 3rd floor of our building (the entire floor was powerless). The Thais did nothing about it although they did complain amongst each other. Upon investigation, I had found "bad practice" (the phases were not balanced at all) to be the culprit. I then spoke to the head of the electrical dept & made some suggestions. Work was carried out within 2 days but they replaced the circuit breaker with a 2nd hand unit (dangerous).

Outcome: one of the existing cables is badly burnt. I notified certain people about this but nothing has been done although a lovely new senseless room has been built in the meantime (obviously part of an earlier budget proposal).

2] The airconditioning in our office was causing the lights to flicker (I knew this). Within 30 minutes, the circuit breaker supplying the a/c unit had tripped on overload. This was reported & "someone" (an a/c teacher) arrived & immediately switched on this circuit breaker against my suggestion. The result was a BANG, clouds of smoke coming from the a/c unit & the same circuit breaker tripped. The circuit breaker will not be replaced even though it has obviously suffered a high current fault.

There was another a/c unit next to this one, which had not been operable for some time. Nobody paid attention to this at all. As a result, our office is no longer airconditioned & a possibly good a/c unit is sitting there...doing nothing. One of my Thai colleagues, who trusts western technology, has asked me if I will "fault find" the problem with the idle a/c unit. She doesn't trust Thai technicians.

3] 2 days ago, one of my colleagues asked me to look at yet another a/c unit. It was leaking water all over the floor beneath the evaporator. After removing a few screws & looking at things, she asked me what I thought the problem was. I told her that the people who had installed this unit did not provide enough "runoff" in the condensate pipework & that the pipework may be blocked. Upon further investigation, I found that the way the unit had been mounted on the ceiling caused it to drop by 5mm at the front, thereby causing the water to not "runoff".

4] Light switches in many classrooms are now faulty. I can hear the arcing sometimes (risk of fire). As a result, all new buildings/rooms do not have light switches...lights & all power to the room is now controlled by circuit breakers. This is a completely stupid idea as circuit breakers have a lifetime of a certain number of mechanical & electrical operations. They are expensive to replace compared to simple switches. Simple light switches also have a certain number of mechanical & electrical operations but are quite cheap & easy to replace compared to a circuit breaker.

From what I have noticed, Thais are quite adept at many things, however, they sadly lack in the department of "detail". It's usually the detail that catches you out. This goes for teaching as well.

The above 4 situations were as a direct result of poor teaching practice & a lack of knowledge or a refusal to be enlightened. This is simply the tip of the iceberg with regards to the wonderful Thai education system.

Thailand will never be the "hub" of anything until they pull their heads out of the sand & realise several things;

1] Thai students suffer academic overload...taught too much in too little time. They learn stuff they don't need to know.

2] Passing an academic test has no relevance to doing a good "hands on" job.

3] "Helping" each other is nothing but fooling yourself.

4] Planning is not a sin...nor will it turn Thailand into the equivalent of the western world, as it is today.

5] Mediocrity is directly connected to "culture".

6] Saving face will forever hold back the people who really wish to be true unto themselves.

The idea of this post was to reflect how poor teaching practices (& attitudes) affect things in the real world.

Spot on, very comprehensive, nothing else to add..Recently had this very conversation with an adult student I am teaching English and another lady who said she was a Dr. in education here......Yet she didn't know what a CV was?

Edited March 1, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[PeaceBlondie]

'Recently had this very conversation with an adult student I am teaching English and another lady who said she was a Dr. in education here......Yet she didn't know what a CV was?'

Did she know the American word loaned from French, resumé? Do you?

[AsiaCheese]

'Recently had this very conversation with an adult student I am teaching English and another lady who said she was a Dr. in education here......Yet she didn't know what a CV was?'

Did she know the American word loaned from French, resumé? Do you?

Well, it's Latin-French

The original was curiculum vitae, right? Nero says hello

[PeaceBlondie]

Sorry, but I get brain farts when British don't know American terms. I knew what a boot and bonnet were in junior high in Illinois (which was pronounced Illinoy, like French).

[10027586]

To shamelessly steal/paraphrase from a pixar movie of all things, when everyone is special no-one is. I'm lucky that my present school does make some attempt to encourage parents to hold their kids back when they've completely flunked, though it's still essentially impossible for the school to enforce anything there if the parent doesn't agree. This has been beneficial for a number of kids, as they've held back, fixed the problems with the extra year they've been given, and gone up the next year in much better shape, happier and more confident. Parents who have insisted their kids go up when they really shouldn't have usually not got the result they were hoping for (though usually don't realise it) as the kid passes year after year but frankly learns nothing and comes out at the end of school with no clue about anything.

No-fail is a mess. I only have to look at kids coming in from local Thai schools to see that. They're miles behind our kids because no matter how hard they work, or how hard they don't work, the grades are the same. Would you work hard in those circumstances? We've managed to put just enough fear into most of the kids that they do want to work harder to pass. It's not a perfect solution of course but it shows that it can be done, even if our school is a little odd by Thai standards (not full international btw).

[somtampet]

FOR THE TEACHERS

May i ask how difficult it is to teach english to thai students when some teachers cannot speak thai.How do you communicate with the students.

[Scott]

You communicate in English. That is the language they are supposed to be learning.

[toptuan]

I've heard about the passing-any-test "thing" in Thailand many times before -- but this was probably the first time from an "authoritative" source. I would somehow doubt however that the same principle is applied to universities -- or is it?

It is. The pressure is a little more subtle at the university level, however.

For example, if I fail four students out of a class, the next semester I have to teach those four students in an extra class (exactly same curriculum) at no extra pay. They add a few more students to that class from the roster of those who dropped out during the semester when they saw they were going to fail.

Most teachers would rather pass the student rather than penalize themselves in such a system. Sometimes you have the choice of passing the student, or forfeiting a trip home to your family for a summer break, so you can teach his/her "free" class. Devilishly clever, huh?

When a senior fails a class in the last semester, all H_LL breaks loose. The administration puts enormous pressure on the teacher to have the students "do a couple of extra assignments" to pass them, regardless of the student's attendance or effort during the term. Teachers who continue to fail the students regardless of the pressures, somehow don't get their contracts renewed in subsequent years.

At worst, sometimes a student's failing grade just gets "miraculously" changed to a passing grade in the registrar's system. This case, however, strangely involves mostly students from upper economic brackets.

Sorry to say, but the acceptance of mediocrity in the culture extends to all institutions and levels of this society.

[toptuan]

FOR THE TEACHERS

May i ask how difficult it is to teach english to thai students when some teachers cannot speak thai.How do you communicate with the students.

I arrived in Thailand to teach at a vocational college (my first year) not knowing one word of Thai. Yes, my students learned English at the same pace they do now, even though now I am semi-fluent in Thai. Absolutely no problems.

Are you aware there are methods to teach the L2 language with absolutely no reference at all to the L1 language? In my opinion, it's the most effective approach.

Edited March 1, 2010 by toptuan

[somtampet]

FOR THE TEACHERS

May i ask how difficult it is to teach english to thai students when some teachers cannot speak thai.How do you communicate with the students.

I arrived in Thailand to teach at a vocational college (my first year) not knowing one word of Thai. Yes, my students learned English at the same pace they do now, even though now I am semi-fluent in Thai. Absolutely no problems.

Are you aware there are methods to teach the L2 language with absolutely no reference at all to the L1 language? In my opinion, it's the most effective approach.

Thank you for your informative reply

[Firelily]

Toptuan: are medical students passed on to the next grade like that? aircraft engineers?

Edited March 1, 2010 by Firelily

[Ijustwannateach]

^That is the worry, isn't it...