Working, But Not A Job

[FrancWMann]

Hi and let me firstly apologise if the question has been asked before.... so sorry.

OK I am a South-African national and I am not retired or retiring. I earn a living as an "artist" well OK a photographer and writer. I have an agent that sell my stuff and pay me a percentage. He is in the UK and I have an offshore bank account. So here is the question do I need a work permit for an extended (1+year) stay in Thailand. I will obviously be working, but I will not be earning money from Thailand or for that matter in Thailand.

I would Ideally want to be able to rent a house and buy a car and I am aware that this is only possible with a non immigrant type Visa. Having read a lot of literature on the subject it seems that the type "O" Visa fits my needs.

Thank you in advance for any and all advice.

[Nio]

For the whole year you are in Thailand, what do you plan on photographing? Nothing? Writing nothing?

I find it odd you claim you will be working but not earning in Thailand? Can you explain that?

If you are working in Thailand you are working period.

You could apply for a O visa (Hull, UK) to visit friends in Thailand which would be good for a year if you do the required visa runs every 90 days

However what you plan on doing is not legal. It is your choice if you want to do it under the radar as there are many people here already doing work under the radar.

Weigh the risk or chance you would get caught, (sounds very minimal) against getting caught.

[Mario2008]

Work requires a work permit, which you won't get unless you have your own company in Thailand. Photography is a restricted profession, only open to Thai. But for artists that will probably be different.

The rules don't provide for your situation. In cases like you, where people work in Thailand over the internet and get payed elsewhere, many decide to do it illegal and stay under the radar and just keep their mouth shut. That still is illegal.

[FrancWMann]

Thank you for your advice so far. Please indulge me for just a moment more.

I'm heading to my local Thai consulate to sort this out any-roads, but it would be interesting to hear your view. I will use two examples (but I guess in the end I will need a work permit), the first being a range of articles that I am currently writing, so the contract was signed whilst not in Thailand, but some of the work will be done while I am there. The articles as such have nothing to do with Thailand and when I chose the job Thailand did not feature in my plans. Second example is work that is already up for sale... I have pictures/photo's and one book for which I earn royalties, so again nothing to do with Thailand but it will provide me with an income while I am there.

Does this constitute working in Thailand (it probably does)?

[PoorSucker]

You could try to get a Non-M

Non Imm "M"

Application for further stay to be on duty as a journalist

Required Documents

1. Application form T.M.7 with one 4x6 cm. Photograph and 1900 Baht Visa Fee.

2. Copy of passport ( Certified true copy )

3. An official letter from the Department of Information, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or the concerned Government Department

4. A copy of the work permit or copy of the work permit application. (Tor Thor 2) from the Department of Employment

5. A copy of Identity of correspondent card

6. Employment contract

7. In the case of having income need;

* The evidence of tax payment of a applicants (Por Ngor Dor 1) with receipt of payment in the latest month (First year) and

* The evidence of income tax form (Por Ngor Dor 91) with receipt of payment for the last year worked in Thailand (Another year)

[jazzbo]

Simple answer --

Sitting inside your rented house with Wi-Fi for a year writing on your laptop: Low Risk

Spending a year outdoors with professional photography equipment sticking your nose into everything: High Risk

About the writing part, never use the word 'working' and your time at the computer, if ever asked, is spent in long correspondence with your sick Mother.

[Soutpeel]

You could try to get a Non-M

Non Imm "M"

Application for further stay to be on duty as a journalist

Required Documents

1. Application form T.M.7 with one 4x6 cm. Photograph and 1900 Baht Visa Fee.

2. Copy of passport ( Certified true copy )

3. An official letter from the Department of Information, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or the concerned Government Department

4. A copy of the work permit or copy of the work permit application. (Tor Thor 2) from the Department of Employment

5. A copy of Identity of correspondent card

6. Employment contract

7. In the case of having income need;

* The evidence of tax payment of a applicants (Por Ngor Dor 1) with receipt of payment in the latest month (First year) and

* The evidence of income tax form (Por Ngor Dor 91) with receipt of payment for the last year worked in Thailand (Another year)

But surely to be granted this visa, you would need to be accredited to some entity, eg, BBC, CNN, Reuters etc, these surely would relate to items 5. and 6.

I dont beileve this is what the OP is taking about ??

OP...technically/legally speaking, you need a WP, but as others have pointed out, working under the radar is an option if you are prepared to take the risk, however small it is...

Lekker Dag

Soutie

[neverdie]

Thank you for your advice so far. Please indulge me for just a moment more.

I'm heading to my local Thai consulate to sort this out any-roads, but it would be interesting to hear your view. I will use two examples (but I guess in the end I will need a work permit), the first being a range of articles that I am currently writing, so the contract was signed whilst not in Thailand, but some of the work will be done while I am there. The articles as such have nothing to do with Thailand and when I chose the job Thailand did not feature in my plans. Second example is work that is already up for sale... I have pictures/photo's and one book for which I earn royalties, so again nothing to do with Thailand but it will provide me with an income while I am there.

Does this constitute working in Thailand (it probably does)?

You see if your earning an income from past work, like what you say, your being paid royalties, interest, dividends then your not working, the work has been done and you are on an extended break, pretty simple really. If you actually writing stuff, taking photos and sending them off somewhere or doing something workwise, irregardless of where the contract might of been signed, then you need a work permit.

[Sunny Valentine]

Reading the advise here, it seems that also in the case of a tourist that stays some time in Thailand on vacation, and during that time stays in contact with his job, answering Emails, and preparing documents, requires a work permit. Which obviously he won't get, as there is no legal entity which will apply for him.

Solution: Forget about the silly and unenforceable rules, or stop even thinking about your job back home, because even this could constitute working, based on the definition here.

[tripplejjj]

Please let me muddy the water a little more.

The key question is the length of stay in Thailand and type of visa.

2.4 In the case of tourists:

Permission will be granted for a period of not more than 30 days at a time but not exceeding 90 days in total, counting from the entry date.

It is my interpretation that immigration is flexible when it comes to people who visit Thailand as tourists can engage in "work like activities" because they (tourists) are in Thailand for a short term and the majority of the time is spent on pleasure. Granted, many aliens abused this visa category by engaging in work full time.

You indicated that you want to stay long term (more than a year). If you have a Non-IM visa, then what would be the purpose to extend your stay (family, business, investment, work, press, study, etc). If you do qualified for any one, then what your home country considered work (requiring you to pay taxes) when you are in your home country is also considered work here in Thailand. The only different here, when you are in Thailand, is that you need a work permit to legally work.

[Soutpeel]

Please let me muddy the water a little more.

The key question is the length of stay in Thailand and type of visa.

2.4 In the case of tourists:

Permission will be granted for a period of not more than 30 days at a time but not exceeding 90 days in total, counting from the entry date.

It is my interpretation that immigration is flexible when it comes to people who visit Thailand as tourists can engage in "work like activities" because they (tourists) are in Thailand for a short term and the majority of the time is spent on pleasure. Granted, many aliens abused this visa category by engaging in work full time.

You indicated that you want to stay long term (more than a year). If you have a Non-IM visa, then what would be the purpose to extend your stay (family, business, investment, work, press, study, etc). If you do qualified for any one, then what your home country considered work (requiring you to pay taxes) when you are in your home country is also considered work here in Thailand. The only different here, when you are in Thailand, is that you need a work permit to legally work.

Agreed, this is my interpretation as well, A genuine tourist is here for a pre-determined amount of time and not trying to make a living on the internet to support themselves while living in Thailand as a "Resident".

It would be interesting to see how many people who "work here" on the internet have also applied for residence certificates, have Thai DL etc etc as well, as these documents would be a measure of whether someone is a geniune tourist or not

[Rumblecat]

Thank you for your advice so far. Please indulge me for just a moment more.

I'm heading to my local Thai consulate to sort this out any-roads, but it would be interesting to hear your view. I will use two examples (but I guess in the end I will need a work permit), the first being a range of articles that I am currently writing, so the contract was signed whilst not in Thailand, but some of the work will be done while I am there. The articles as such have nothing to do with Thailand and when I chose the job Thailand did not feature in my plans. Second example is work that is already up for sale... I have pictures/photo's and one book for which I earn royalties, so again nothing to do with Thailand but it will provide me with an income while I am there.

Does this constitute working in Thailand (it probably does)?

You see if your earning an income from past work, like what you say, your being paid royalties, interest, dividends then your not working, the work has been done and you are on an extended break, pretty simple really. If you actually writing stuff, taking photos and sending them off somewhere or doing something workwise, irregardless of where the contract might of been signed, then you need a work permit.

I don't think that last part is necessarily true- if he's writing and it's work that's for another country and being paid for in another country, then he doesn't need a work permit to do the work here. And presumably he's paying tax already on the income, depending on which country he's being paid in. I know plenty of writers who nip off to warmer climates to knock out new chapters or screenplays- but because the income goes through their agents in the US or the UK, that's where the 'work' is technically processed and done. Unless there are different laws in Thailand involving the completion of freelance work that is generated and paid for in another country- but actually proving something was 'written' in a certain location would be very hard anyway.

Simple (possibly stupid) example- Stephen King decides to come here for six months and uses the time to write his new novel. He wouldn't need a work permit to do that...

...or would he? I may have this spectacularly wrong...

[Soutpeel]

I don't think that last part is necessarily true- if he's writing and it's work that's for another country and being paid for in another country, then he doesn't need a work permit to do the work here. And presumably he's paying tax already on the income, depending on which country he's being paid in. I know plenty of writers who nip off to warmer climates to knock out new chapters or screenplays- but because the income goes through their agents in the US or the UK, that's where the 'work' is technically processed and done. Unless there are different laws in Thailand involving the completion of freelance work that is generated and paid for in another country- but actually proving something was 'written' in a certain location would be very hard anyway.

Simple (possibly stupid) example- Stephen King decides to come here for six months and uses the time to write his new novel. He wouldn't need a work permit to do that...

...or would he? I may have this spectacularly wrong...

Legally speaking Stephen King would require a WP.

If you read the definition of working, whether you are getting paid or not and where you are getting paid is not considered under Thai law.

If Stephen King was resident for more than 180 days in Thailand he would be liable for tax in Thailand as well.

Somehow me thinks if Stephen was trying to get away from it all to write his new novel, would think Thailand would be very low on his list of places to do it....guess he would be renting a whole island somewhere...

[lopburi3]

Rumblecat:

That is the whole point - Thailand is not like other countries - the definition of work in Thailand is all-inclusive and if taken to an extreme would cover everything.

[Soutpeel]

Your question...or some variation of it...has been asked many times on this Forum. The legal answer is still unclear.

Actually the legal answer is very clear, if you are working you need a WP.... , were the waters start getting muddy is over the definition of "work"...

To me the test is where you claim residence, if for Thailand, you need to have means of support to live in Thailand and to support yourself living in Thailand, you are running an internet business from Thailand, then to me you are working in Thailand, irrespective of where the money is deposited.

One could also ask of the people running internet business' from Thailand under the radar..where are you paying your income tax ??....if you are not paying tax anywhere by virtue you are living in Thailand, you are also tax dodging as well in Thailand and or other country..

As regards the WP process...I cant think of one country in the world which would give you a work permit without a job with a local company or pre-approve one for you........Will stand to be corrected on this

Would ask the following question ? Would say the UK allow a Thai national on a long tourist stay visa in the UK and let them work on the internet to support themselves while in the UK, without a WP or paying tax ?? even if they are being paid outside the UK...think not...

[Somrak]

In cases like you, where people work in Thailand over the internet and get payed elsewhere, many decide to do it illegal and stay under the radar and just keep their mouth shut.

May tell the embassy/consulat that you like to make "preparations for future work". As i understand this will be not even a lie. Then ask for a Non-O-one year visa and stay under the radar as told, when you are in Thailand.

[lopburi3]

Do not believe most Consulates would consider that a valid reason for one year visa issue.

[bravoZ]

Photography is a restricted profession, only open to Thai.

it's true?

[Soutpeel]

Photography is a restricted profession, only open to Thai.

it's true?

Its true...therefore under a strict interpretation of the law, you could be locked up for taking holiday snaps as a farang as you dont have a work permit....

We could of course get round this by shooting video, as dont believe "videographer" is in on the restricted profession list....