Sign In/out Times.

[elkangorito]

Since I have had my pay situation changed from hourly to monthly (now the same as Thai teachers), I now must sign in/out. I

have done this before when I taught in BKK. The only difference is that when I sign in now;

1] all the previous entries are in Thai (numbers included). I must always ask someone what the previous person wrote as the

sign in time.

2] even though everybody starts at 8am, all of the previous people indicate that they signed in at some time long before 8am

(usually between 6am & 7am). This is clearly untrue since I am asked to sign in a few minutes later than the previous person.

E.g. if the previous entry indicates 6.25am, I must sign in at about 6.28am.

3] the sign out time is the same for everybody, including myself (8pm as instructed). Everybody fills out both times (sign in

& out) in the morning. Everybody is gone well before 8pm.

Is this standard practice? Why is there a need to falsify sign in/out times? Does the M.E. look at these things? To add insult to injury, there is this crazy idea about holidays...you still must wake up early in the morning to go & sign in/out & then you can go home. So much for spending a week away somewhere.

I wish someone would "grow a braincell or two" & be a bit fairdinkum for a change instead of all this lying.

That feels better.

[markg]

Stop questioning 'why' and just do as you're told.

Some answers to your questions might be;

(1) because we've always done it this way

( 2) because such-and-such a school do it this way

( 3) because someone older and wiser than you decided it is so.

(4) all of the above.

No one questions 'why' it is done this way. It just is. If you asked someone, even a mature person of some standing within the school 'why' it is done this way, they won't know and you will cause them to lose face.

If you can't understand the Thai script, just write the correct time in English language (i.e. seven twenty eight).

No one will question you because it will make them lose face.

This is known as playing the cultural system to your advantage.

It's my experience that the 'logging in book' is only checked by a minion. No one takes any notice of it.

No one in Thailand is lying. The people who log in at 6am are 'helping' the late arrivals by giving them the chance to log in at the correct time. Not lying at all.

Helping.

Get with the programme !

Try looking at the system from a different angle.

Edited March 8, 2010 by markg

[tonititan]

To add insult to injury, there is this crazy idea about holidays...you still must wake up early in the morning to go & sign in/out & then you can go home. So much for spending a week away somewhere.

That's nuts! Do you have to do this every single day of a weeklong holiday?

[Scott]

Leave the time part blank and have the next person put the time in. Tell the Thai teachers you can't write Thai numbers.

[twschw]

I would say that this is not standard practice. Granted I have only worked at 3 schools. First one we had a time clock that printed the time on a card, second school we did sign in but everyone put the correct time or within a few minutes and the current school uses a biometric fingerprint scanner.

As far as the holidays go, once we are released we certainly don't have to come to school and clock or sign in everyday.

[ThaiRich]

Huh? Sign in and out. Never done it in 5 years.

[PeaceBlondie]

I can't read Thai. Even numbers.

[twschw]

You are a lucky man indeed, ThaiRich

[elkangorito]

My comments in blue.

Leave the time part blank and have the next person put the time in. Tell the Thai teachers you can't write Thai numbers.

I have considered doing this & I think I will now do this. The result should be interesting.

I would say that this is not standard practice. Granted I have only worked at 3 schools. First one we had a time clock that printed the time on a card, second school we did sign in but everyone put the correct time or within a few minutes and the current school uses a biometric fingerprint scanner.

I think a time clock would be great. It may bring to the fore what a "crock" a small part of the teaching system is, here in Thailand.

As far as the holidays go, once we are released we certainly don't have to come to school and clock or sign in everyday.

I wonder how many others are as fortunate as you? Before my pay system was changed, I had the same setup.

[BlackArtemis]

Solve the problem by either having a foreign teacher sign in, or as my school a computer.

In by 7:50am and leave around 3ish, but stay till 4 or longer once a week so parents can catch up with you.

[otherstuff1957]

8am to 8pm! If I had those hours I'd falsify my timesheet too!

Is that a 12 hour working day 5 days a week?

I've had to sign in at a couple of school that I've worked at,one had sign-in at 7:30 and sign-out at 4pm, My current one has sign-in (actually swipe-in) at 7:50 and sign-out at 4:30pm.

[mizzi39]

I'm payed monthly (contract) and still sign in and out everyday. When we "sign in" in the morning we also sign out at the same time. Our EP's policy is that we are free to leave after our last scheduled class, or if a class gets canceled. Every teacher in my department has at least a couple of days during the week where their classes end early. No hassles as long as you sign in before 0800.

I only teach 15 hours a week, so there are many times where i may have 2-3 hours between classes. The teachers at our school (both Thai and foreign) are free to leave campus if we have things to do, as long as we are back for our scheduled classes.

The whole sign in and out thing is for audit purposes.

[elkangorito]

Some rather amusing replies

I guess my ultimate question is why all the lying? This is especially confusing when, in Thailand, teachers are supposed to be upstanding pillars of the community.

[MAJIC]

Some rather amusing replies

I guess my ultimate question is why all the lying? This is especially confusing when, in Thailand, teachers are supposed to be upstanding pillars of the community.

Perhaps being seen to be at work longer than necessary helps out when it comes to pay rises?

[Scott]

There is a basic dishonesty in people, especially for small things and things that we won't get caught at.

We have people who sign in at 6:00 a.m. Maybe they were at school, maybe not, but I do know the sign-in book isn't out there are 6:00. It's not until the 'late' time that it becomes an issue.

[marty147]

I'm usually the first arrival but ALWAYS, there are 6 or 7 teachers who have already signed in before me yet they were nowhere to be seen! It took me a few weeks to solve the mystery.

I finally realised that they get dressed, jump on their motorbikes, go to school, sign in then go all the way home again only to come back to school an hour later for the flag ceremony.

However, since they all record ridiculously early times anyway (5am onwards) then why bother? Why not just turn up at 7.59 and sign in their arrival time as 6.30am - why make two trips to record a fake time when a single trip would serve the same purpose?

I would introduce retina scans if I had my way.

Thank God (or Buddha) there are no sign-OUT requirements.

What fun and games would that cause...?

[Phatcharanan]

Oh for goodness sake !

You are bringing your 'western values' to an Asian country. (And lets face it.......4 week TEFL wonders dictating policy?)

Asian countries that are apparently fairing a lot better, financially, than our western counterparts.

Jeeeez, you don't like signing in etc.......go back to your home country and see how teachers are treated there.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Phatcharanan

[Scott]

Ok, let's stop baiting others. This is an exchange of information. It's rather mundane, but it is helpful, especially to newbies and some of us older ones who think we are being mistreated until we find out what others have to put up with.

Where I was working (now being transferred to another school), we had around 80 foreign teachers. For roughly 1/2 of those, there is no class teacher when we teach--they have a subject of their own to teach another class. The sign-in book is important. Are you coming to school today? Are you present? Do we need to have a replacement?

Schools don't work well without teachers and they need to be there.

Occasionally, teachers don't show up and they don't call. The excuses range from having lost their phone with all the numbers all the way to a husband who dropped dead. And then there are the ones who have a life-style that leads them to just not come in.

How does a school keep track of all this? It's called a sign-in system. Mundane; yes. Important; yes.

[lightbulb]

Ok, let's stop baiting others. This is an exchange of information. It's rather mundane, but it is helpful, especially to newbies and some of us older ones who think we are being mistreated until we find out what others have to put up with.

Where I was working (now being transferred to another school), we had around 80 foreign teachers. For roughly 1/2 of those, there is no class teacher when we teach--they have a subject of their own to teach another class. The sign-in book is important. Are you coming to school today? Are you present? Do we need to have a replacement?

Schools don't work well without teachers and they need to be there.

Occasionally, teachers don't show up and they don't call. The excuses range from having lost their phone with all the numbers all the way to a husband who dropped dead. And then there are the ones who have a life-style that leads them to just not come in.

How does a school keep track of all this? It's called a sign-in system. Mundane; yes. Important; yes.

I agree Scott - the school should have measures such as signing in and out, to make run properly and to be sure they are not being taken advantage of - there are extremes however.

For instance - at a school I once worked, there was/isis a fingerprint scanner and you have to make sure you are there before 7.30 = if you are a second late, you are late

On the 5th instance of being late (even if it adds to up to 5 seconds), you are deducted a half a day's pay = more than 2000 baht.

Now, I am a person who is punctual, but there was a time when the BTS was not reliable (when the line to WongWianYai was being tested and after it opened) - so I was fined

I did no even contest it, but in retrospect, the school has no right to do this - in fact incurring such fines are against the law:

LPA 1998:

Section 76. A boss shall not deduct wages, overtime pay, holiday pay and holiday overtime pay unless it is a deduction for the purpose of

• (1)paying income tax in the amount which has to be paid by the employee or paying other monies as provided for by law,

• (2)paying trade union dues under the articles of the trade union, • (3)paying the debts of a savings cooperative or some other cooperative which has the

same characteristics of those of a savings cooperative, or debts which are for the beneficial welfare of the employees solely, wherein consent has been obtained in advance from the employees,

• (4)providing guarantee money under Section 10 or compensation to the boss for damages which had been caused by the employee deliberately or due to gross negligence, wherein consent has been obtained from the employee,

• (5) depositing money for the employee in a savings fund under an agreement with the employee regarding such a fund.

With regard to deductions under subsections (2) to (5), in each case deductions of more than ten percent are prohibited and the total deductions may not be more than one fifth of the money which the employee is entitled to receive on the date for payment under Section 70, unless consent has been obtained from the employee.

Generally speaking - the law considers LATE as late for duties, not late for clocking in. In any case, a school should have measures in place which either awards small incentives to its employees for being on time, or be less draconian and extreme about it, or follow the proper disciplinary procedures to address the problem with the employee.

What made the school more in the wrong was that there was/is a staff member who has the worst record for coming late, yet he has NEVER received such a letter.

The point is that we need to be as punctual as we can - it IS a sign of being professional, the system at that school are being ridiculed and it is done by consensus = (and is that so bad?)

I don't endorse lying, but I also won't mess with a system that has clearly come a long way - this will make waves you don't need the attention

its the old value of honesty VS politeness

In thailand you have to choose the latter, unless, of course, it is something very serious and a value you are unwilling to compromise. Still, you may be applauded by culturally like-minded people, but for others you are not playing the polite game and that as "unacceptable" as the other option. Sign in as they want - its not going to kill you - compromise a little here (choose your battles carefully - avoid a fight/argument, but all considered, fight the battles that are most important and closest to your heart)

[BlackArtemis]

A cheap computer with a $30 finger print reader solves the problem, but most schools lack the foresight.

[Firelily]

I really resent that because of teachers who regularly come late despite salary cuts and warnings, my school is getting stricter and stricter and the measures end up hitting teachers who are only two minutes late once every month.