Land Titles Por Tor Bor 5

[MrWiggle]

Anyone have/had any experience with buying, owning for long periods or selling these types of titles ?

[rgs2001uk]

Try reading the following link,

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/land_title_deeds.html

Personally I wouldnt touch it with either a barge pole or your money.

If it sounds too good to be true leave well alone.

[RAZZELL]

No can do.

RAZZ

[MrWiggle]

No can do.

RAZZ

Hey, thanks for that well thought out and informative response.

Cheers.

[quiksilva]

I advise clients to steer well clear of anything less than Nor Sor Sam Kor. From the link already posted:-

Por. Bor. Tor. 5 (P.B.T. 5), is an evidence showing that the occupier of a plot of land has been issued a tax number and has paid tax for using the benefit of the land. This confers no right at all but was formerly used to establish that the holder was occupying a plot of land and could apply for a Sor Kor 1.

[onlooker]

Avoid. You cant lease it longterm legally. Cant be owned in a company name. Can't register any usufruct etc on the land. So basically it'll be owned by a Thai and you have zero control over it. Technically cant build a house on it - although people do. Cant legally get a house electric meter, so homeonwers on PBT5 land are often on temporary electric meter charges which are far higher.

[MrWiggle]

OL....the first few statements in your post are the typical scaremonger watch out for the boogyman stuff.

Some of us have people that we can put land into their names without worry at all.

The other mention re electric is good though, thanks.

QS...clients ? are you a lawyer ?.... anyway, I had read that the SK1 has not been issued since 1972 ? is that right ?

Would you care to comment on why/how so many others do buy this land and seem to go on forever without a care or problem.

Near a block we are looking at, a so called superstar just bought some land identical almost to the block I am looking at. The block is also surrounded by land either being farmed or just lived on and the mains electric does actually go to the front gate.

[onlooker]

the first few statements in your post are the typical scaremonger watch out for the boogyman stuff.

Yeah, I know. All this legal nonsense can be a pain. Far better to ignore actual laws and just do whatever other people do - because of they do it then it must be fine. (Same as you'd do in your own country? Oh no. I forgot,. Thailand is different.)

And then when things come back to bite you just whine on a discussion board and blame anyone else but yourself for the predicament you are in.

[MrWiggle]

We do not all marry people we do not trust, nor have serious doubts about them, nor have children we cannot bear the thought of trusting etc etc....If you have these concerns OL.....guess you may have shopped in the wrong area.

[Gary A]

Mr. Wiggle, if you know the answers, why ask the question? My Thai wife owns several parcels of land and will not touch any land that does not have a chanote. Why take a chance?

I fell in love with a piece of land in the mountains. Water from a waterfall and even had electric available. It took my wife about two minutes asking the "owner" questions before she told me to forget it because that land belongs to the government, period.

The land I am talking about has been used and farmed by the same family for three generations. My wife is NOT a lawyer but she does know what can be owned and what is very risky.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Gary A

[quiksilva]

I am a commercial real estate agent, and contrary to popular belief some of us will advise clients not to buy certain properties. A few of us even understand that such advice pays dividends in the long run. See my profile for more details.

Mr Wiggle, my recommendation stands, I am not here to debate it, buy if it you really want it, it's your money to do with as you please,

I merely suggest that seeing as it confers no rights to the land, your money would be better spent buying a Chanode title, or Nor Sor Sam Kor, at a push.

Oh, and I could not care less why other people choose to throw money at, and trade, tax receipts, even so called superstars.

Edited March 16, 2010 by quiksilva

[rgs2001uk]

Add Khao Yai to the list that includes, Phuket, Krabi and Koh Chang, for land grabbers and the get rich quick merchants.

Land titles of dubious origin and authenticity, at least one prominent Thai has been caught out and had to return the land.

Thailand being what it is I dare say with the right surname anything is possible.

It doesnt make any difference if you try and put the land in a Thais name, they have no legal rights to the land.

Some people dont want to hear this and will try and circumvent the legal channels.

As mentioned by another poster, its your money do as you please, up to you as they say.

[MrWiggle]

I am asking for discussions here as to why and how etc...many do it and many have done it for decades, also all the surrounding plots do it etc.

No need for you all to get on your high and mighty horse....I am asking for simple feedback, not holier than thou replies....I can read them everywhere else.

'they have no legal rights to the land'.....that agian, depends on the title....some do, some do not. You can argue that you do have some rights to this land because you have paid the tax and you are there as johnny on the spot to own the land if and when it ever is upgraded. The guy next door does not have the same right for this land as he did not pay the tax...so you do have some rights...right ?

anyway, I would like to hear from anyone that has bought this type of land and has enjoyed free and easy occupation of it without any problems....regardless of title upgrade or not.

As I said, many around do, so it is possible to do....but then the drama queens pop out with their 'cannot trust my wife, so you cannot trust yours either' yadda yadda...

[quiksilva]

'they have no legal rights to the land'.....that agian, depends on the title....some do, some do not. You can argue that you do have some rights to this land because you have paid the tax and you are there as johnny on the spot to own the land if and when it ever is upgraded. The guy next door does not have the same right for this land as he did not pay the tax...so you do have some rights...right ?

"If and whenever it is upgraded" from lowly tax receipt to true freehold ownership is quite a gamble to take. Oh sure the tax payer might be in with a better chance than the fella next door who has never paid a Satang in tax for using the parcel, but then again they might just pass you by. (Do you know for sure what will happen?)

So to address your question, why are people are prepared to buy Por Bor Tor 5 (when true titles to land are also available)? The only answer I have is, that they are driven by speculation, with hopes of hitting the big time, some day, and maybe they will, some day, but maybe not.

If you have the cash to take such a gamble, and are feeling lucky and so inclined, go for it.

Personally, I think they are safer bets out there than buying someone else's tax receipt, that was paid for using land that does not belong to them.

Edited March 16, 2010 by quiksilva

[oracle]

If this land could be upgraded it would have been upgraded, and if they say it can be upgraded, even when the land office confirms this, only pay after the upgrade.

If in the future the Land Department issues a program that it could be upgraded, you may find someone else with better rights to the land as your tax receipt says nothing if you do not actually use the land.

Where is the land located and what are your plans with the land? As it is now other than paying tax for the right of gathering the crops or letting cattle graze on the land there is nothing you can do with this land and it is 100% government or public land.

I know only foreigners who are scammed with this type of land, often with involvement of local government officials. As this land type gives no actual rights at all, and when money is to be made with upgrading, locals may find very effective ways to secure their interest. You end up with nothing.

[RAZZELL]

No can do.

RAZZ

Hey, thanks for that well thought out and informative response.

Cheers.

Well, you ask a stupid question you get a stupid answer

From your other responses you obviously know it all already!

SO YOU UNDERSTAND... THIS TYPE OF LAND "OWNERSHIP" IS SIMILAR TO SQUATTERS RIGHTS AND CANNOT BE BOUGHT, SOLD, OR BORROWED AGAINST!

Understand now?

Although in the "Thai world" anything is possible...and ownership is 9/10 of the law.

But if you want to pi$$ your money away, as ever, "up to you"

RAZZ

Edited March 16, 2010 by RAZZELL

[RAZZELL]

but then the drama queens pop out with their 'cannot trust my wife, so you cannot trust yours either' yadda yadda...

I don't think anyone mentioned that...The only "drama queen" appears to be you

RAZZ

[getgoin]

This type of land is usually cheap.

Have you asked about an upgrade or if they will issue a Sor Kor 1?

Foreigners are afraid of Por Tor Bor 5 and Sor Por Gor because of the restrictions placed on it. Thai people routinely trade these papers and get the names changed on them. They are hard to sell because basically you are not allowed to sell them. This doesn't seem to stop them from being sold or people from buying them.

[MrWiggle]

Thai people routinely trade these papers and get the names changed on them.

Thats right, thai people do and I have heard this many times across many fields. It would be another thai person trading this land again if we take it up. What I would like to hear is from someone that has done it and knows of it from first hand, not the farng experts speaking of doom gloom and hearsay, or at least someone with something sensible to say like this.

[MrWiggle]

Well, you ask a stupid question you get a stupid answer

CANNOT BE BOUGHT, SOLD,

RAZZ

Show me where my stupid question is ? I can show you your stupid response quicker.

You should get off your high and obviously bitter horse and forgive your wife for not trusting her.

The title I am talking about can be bought and sold, if you bothered to read yourself and comprehend.

[MrWiggle]

If this land could be upgraded it would have been upgraded, and if they say it can be upgraded, even when the land office confirms this, only pay after the upgrade.

If in the future the Land Department issues a program that it could be upgraded, you may find someone else with better rights to the land as your tax receipt says nothing if you do not actually use the land.

Where is the land located and what are your plans with the land? As it is now other than paying tax for the right of gathering the crops or letting cattle graze on the land there is nothing you can do with this land and it is 100% government or public land.

I know only foreigners who are scammed with this type of land, often with involvement of local government officials. As this land type gives no actual rights at all, and when money is to be made with upgrading, locals may find very effective ways to secure their interest. You end up with nothing.

Thanks for the post.

Based on what I understand, whoever pays the tax receipts, so whoever paiid the last, current tax receipts has the rights to the land as this is stated as how the land is permited to be traded. As opposed to other titles which stae they cannot be bought and sold whatsoever, only inherited.

We would be using the land also as it is only around the corner from where we live.

[MrWiggle]

chance than the fella next door who has never paid a Satang in tax for using the parcel,

So to address your question, why are people are prepared to buy Por Bor Tor 5 (when true titles to land are also available)? The only answer I have is, that they are driven by speculation, with hopes of hitting the big time, some day, and maybe they will, some day, but maybe not.

There are hundreds of thousands of Thais around the country that live perfectly well with this title without concern or problem.

The fella next door would not have claim over the land because he does not use it, nor has he paid the tax, nor does he have the receipt for the tax.

The reason we are interested in this land is because it is the kind of block that we are looking for and it happens to have this title only. All other blocks we have looked at, do not come close to what this block has for what we want, simple as that, this block has it, other do not. That is why we are considering it....and i might add, only considering it at this stage and that is why I asked on here for rellevant discussion from people that may have actually dealt with this type of land before with their partners.

[thaiwanderer]

Your continued occupation may be tolerated.

Upgrade in name only may be possible but is a meaningless paper shield.

Edited March 17, 2010 by thaiwanderer

[bina]

mr. wiggle, some of us with other similar forms of papers for land have been waiting up to a year for moving land to chanote; we trust our partners (my hsuband in this case) and we trust the in laws; we do not trust thai land offices... nor would i start this procedure ever again. no chanote, no buy.... everything else is jsut too dependant on too many other variables.

the rules change all the time w/o anyone including puu yai baans knowing the changes; u can get screwed over so easily.... we also would have just goen and built a house on the land we have (mother's land, sor bor 3 in process towards chanote) with no worries if i didnt realize that that land is very close to a cross roads, and on the main road so one day someone, somewhere in the legal system of korat thai land offices will want that land for other more lucrative purposes; and as we have less money than most officials, we would be screwed.

im very 'mai pen rai' about most things... and deal with things as they come up, but in this case forewarned is pre armed....

if u just want it for grazing land or something, and u have nothing to lose, go for it... but the fact that others do it, doesnt mean a thing. the minute a farang is involved, more eyes turn towards the subject at hand and give more scrutiny. and i am not a paranoid farang. i just saw the attitude even in the korat offices (kornburi actually), we were asked a bit more questions, etc etc...

and we are still waiting. every other week the mother in law calls the land office- it will be a year in one month that we paid all the fees, got all the neighbhors to sign, puu yai baan signed, land surveyor was out once.... and thats that. dead end for the moment.

'up to u'

bina

israel

[RAZZELL]

Show me where my stupid question is ? I can show you your stupid response quicker.

You should get off your high and obviously bitter horse and forgive your wife for not trusting her.

The title I am talking about can be bought and sold, if you bothered to read yourself and comprehend.

If you say so

By the way...I'm not married! :D

Even if I was - I wouldn't "buy" - because what you are buying is in "essence" "Common Land" - it isn't the "occupier's" - to "sell".

To quote from the above link:

"Por. Bor. Tor. 5 (P.B.T. 5), is an evidence showing that the occupier of a plot of land has been issued a tax number and has paid tax for using the benefit of the land. This confers no right at all but was formerly used to establish that the holder was occupying a plot of land and could apply for a Sor Kor 1."

Yeah, miracle's do happen. But in LOS, usually to the people who can afford one!

RAZZ

Edited March 17, 2010 by RAZZELL

[lioness]

Avoid. You cant lease it longterm legally. Cant be owned in a company name. Can't register any usufruct etc on the land. So basically it'll be owned by a Thai and you have zero control over it. Technically cant build a house on it - although people do. Cant legally get a house electric meter, so homeonwers on PBT5 land are often on temporary electric meter charges which are far higher.

Will I bother or won't I?? ok just briefly

You can lease it long term legally.

You can and do have full control

You can build a house

No problem with electricity meters

I really do wonder about some replies, it is something you think you know, or heard someone say in a bar, just where do you dream up your reply.

Maybe soe people have just skimmed the surface rather then looking at the legal was of dealing with this situation it's not only possible, it's quite simple.

[RAZZELL]

Avoid. You cant lease it longterm legally. Cant be owned in a company name. Can't register any usufruct etc on the land. So basically it'll be owned by a Thai and you have zero control over it. Technically cant build a house on it - although people do. Cant legally get a house electric meter, so homeonwers on PBT5 land are often on temporary electric meter charges which are far higher.

Will I bother or won't I?? ok just briefly

You can lease it long term legally.

You can and do have full control

You can build a house

No problem with electricity meters

I really do wonder about some replies, it is something you think you know, or heard someone say in a bar, just where do you dream up your reply.

Maybe soe people have just skimmed the surface rather then looking at the legal was of dealing with this situation it's not only possible, it's quite simple.

Why do I bother? Ok Just briefly.

You can lease it long term legally. From who? It's common land. Eg. Right - I'll go into the jungle, say "this is mine" pay the tax...is it really mine?

You can and do have full control. Of what?

You can build a house. True. But what's happen's if the Govt (or a/n/other) want to build a road (fill in the blank's) etc etc etc etc

No problem with electricity meter. Don't know.

This land title is basically "giving" a "legal definition" to a piece of land that might have been in a family's "possession" for generations. It's "squatter's rights"...no more no less.

Prevalent in the "baan nork" or on many islands like Koh Chang, where no-one used to give a shi$ because this land was "worthless"... How time's change

Of course the OP could buy some and live happily ever after. But if he think's he could get it upgraded, not in this lifetime.

If you're comfortable with that fill ya boots!

RAZZ

Edited March 17, 2010 by RAZZELL

[rgs2001uk]

Avoid. You cant lease it longterm legally. Cant be owned in a company name. Can't register any usufruct etc on the land. So basically it'll be owned by a Thai and you have zero control over it. Technically cant build a house on it - although people do. Cant legally get a house electric meter, so homeonwers on PBT5 land are often on temporary electric meter charges which are far higher.

Will I bother or won't I?? ok just briefly

You can lease it long term legally.

You can and do have full control

You can build a house

No problem with electricity meters

I really do wonder about some replies, it is something you think you know, or heard someone say in a bar, just where do you dream up your reply.

Maybe soe people have just skimmed the surface rather then looking at the legal was of dealing with this situation it's not only possible, it's quite simple.

Why do I bother? Ok Just briefly.

You can lease it long term legally. From who? It's common land. Eg. Right - I'll go into the jungle, say "this is mine" pay the tax...is it really mine?

You can and do have full control. Of what?

You can build a house. True. But what's happen's if the Govt (or a/n/other) want to build a road (fill in the blank's) etc etc etc etc

No problem with electricity meter. Don't know.

This land title is basically "giving" a "legal definition" to a piece of land that might have been in a family's "possession" for generations. It's "squatter's rights"...no more no less.

Prevalent in the "baan nork" or on many islands like Koh Chang, where no-one used to give a shi$ because this land was "worthless"... How time's change

Of course the OP could buy some and live happily ever after. But if he think's he could get it upgraded, not in this lifetime.

If you're comfortable with that fill ya boots!

RAZZ

Razz,

a quick searck on the internet yielded the following,

http://homes.point2.com/TH/Trat/Ko-Chang/1...eal-Estate.aspx

hope the link works ok, this isnt an advert just an insight ot whats out there, I particullary like the end comment

"Information is deemed to be correct but not guaranteed."

Check out this other little gem,

"Freehold best CHANOTE Land Titles"

notice the lack of an explanataion, eg farang cannot buy, chanote can only be in a Thai name.

Perhaps Khun Wiggle can answer the following,

I see plenty of Thai get on a motorcycle after consuming God knows how many bottles of Chang and then drive home, just because they do it doesnt mean to say I want to do it.

I dont know how they do it, and I dont want to know, one thing I do know is, I wont be doing it.

Wasnt it Kh Wiggle who mentioned on another thread,

"We have riverside land for sale in the southern edge of the national park area for sale."

Notice, no mention of land title, I refer back to an earlier staement ref carpet baggers and speculators,

God bless her and all who sail in her. Buyer beware.

[RAZZELL]

Perhaps Khun Wiggle can answer the following,

I see plenty of Thai get on a motorcycle after consuming God knows how many bottles of Chang and then drive home, just because they do it doesnt mean to say I want to do it.

I dont know how they do it, and I dont want to know, one thing I do know is, I wont be doing it.

And that's not legal too

RAZZ

[lioness]

rgs2001uk

of course you have all the answers. I got my answers and options working through lawyers specialising in Thai land law, others could do the same.

I just get a bit frustrated by people who can't see the wood for the trees.