What Is A Poo Pakong?

markdav13s · March 21, 2010

<br />

Hi everyone i posted here before but now i cant seem to find the original post.

i am divorced from a thai lady and we have a son and i wasnt sure if i had sole custtody or dual

as it said on the divorce paper that i was his guardian but she is to take care of him. as advised on this site i went back to the umper office to ask them and couldnt get much sense out of them.

only that I am the poo pakomg if anyone know what that is

and she is the poo liang doo

and i was told that i more power her in their broken english and i was the only one who could do any law things with him like make his passport etc.

so please could someone tell me what the difference is as i want to keep him living with me as she was supposed to take care of him but abandoned him to go back and work in phuket and then left for dubai to work as a massage girl. and left him with the grandmother.

tomorrow she will return and she wants him back.

can anyone please advise what the two terms mean

Boo · March 21, 2010

We don't normally allow multiple thread postings but I suggest you start another thread in the thai language forum too. As this is an important issue we can make an exception & they, being thai language gurus, may be able to provide you with a more accurate response.

I will leave this one open too in case one of our family forum experts knows too.

MikeyIdea · March 22, 2010

Poo backkraang is guardian or a person who has the legal right to decide for the child. This person clearly has custody

Puu lieng doo is more like a nanny, the wording indicate that this person does not have custody

" i was the only one who could do any law things with him like make his passport etc" - Yes, judging both from the words used and what the officer at the amphur said, you have sole custody which means that NO ONE has the right to take the child away from you, not even the mother. The grand mother, of course, has no right at all.

The grand mother may not want to accept this and your situation is not that easy, she will not (want to) understand but remember, you do have the right to refuse her or anyone else to take the child away. It may be a good idea to go to the amphur and request a form called por kor 14 (that one states that someone - you - has sole custody). Make a copy of it and give it to the grand mother when you refuse to hand over the child.

MikeyIdea · March 22, 2010

OK, I found your first post, here it is - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Fathers-Righ...94#entry3375494

A couple of things have changed, we now know that you do indeed have sole custody but I still think you should read my reply at the bottom of the above link - it's good reading. I did blame you a bit for signing away too much of your rights but I was wrong, it was actually the mother signing away basically everything, apologies

"i more power her in their broken english" the officer at the amphur said - I would scream of happiness if they could say that to me You have sole custody, the mother (currently) have no more rights than a nanny and the grand mother never had any rights what-so-ever and never will. Your childs future is in your hands, give him the happiest and best future you can

markdav13s · March 22, 2010

Thanks everyone for your help. and a very good post from mikeyidea very informative thanks.

after reading all this there has been such a stress release and it has given me the confidence to tell her NO!

she has been calling me constanly today asking me for her to see her son and i have been saying im his guardian and i decide who he sees. and she gets very angry and tells me that she is people thailand and she can do what she wants to which i reply there is a law and she keeps saying i am a foreigner and it doesn`t count for me. she will bring the police and take him, which i have said ok bring them. ( I have already talked with the local police and they dont want to get involved.

each time she calls she says she is coming and makes threats to which i call her bluff. and she seems to not come.

Thanks again everyone.

but i just want to ask one thing.

tomorrow he is going to the zoo with his nanny and her children that i employ while i teach. if she did turn up here and not see him does she have any ground to complain?

I dont really want her to see him while she is so angry but when she can talk with me on a good level i will alow her to visit him. thats why I told the nanny to take him to the zoo tommorrow as I dont want him to see the animosity between us.

as i

MikeyIdea · March 23, 2010

I must say that I am surprised by the wording in the agreement but since also the officer at the amphur confirms that you have more power than the mother, then I won't argue Go back to the amphur and request a por kor 14. That is the ultimate evidence that you have sole custody. Also confirm that the mother cannot get a por kor 11 (shared custody). It shouldn't be necessary since the officer at he amphur said that you are the only one who can do law things but do it anyway. This is a somewhat unusual situation

The divorce statement says that you are the legal custodian and that the mother is puu lieng doo. BUT, here comes the good thing. As sole legal guardian you can state that - From now on I take care of the child, and the mother is no longer puu lieng doo and you can assign a new puu lieng doo. The mother then has to take the issue to court to change that. One could also argue that you must do the same to make it 100% legitimate but if you have sole custody, that should not be necessary. A por kor 14 from the amphur is enough for you, not your responsibility to sue

But, big but... No one can take away the child from you, true, but I don't see that you have the right to refuse the mother to see her child, No. She still has the right to see her child and it would not be right of you to refuse her to do that. If you refuse then she should sue because the divorce agreement you both signed clearly gives her that right, and she has good chances of winning if she behaves. I stress this: It is not right of you to refuse the mother to see her child. How it is done is up to you as sole guardian. You need to make the mother understand that you will not refuse her to see her child of course, but the child stay with you from now on.

You should make sure that you have the original birth certificate and if you don't, ask to get it. Since you won't get it, get a new one (police report that you can't find the old one...). You have the right to move residence of the child (change tabien baan) and you should do so. Not good that the child is registered at the mother or grand mothers place. You do not need the old tabien baan to do this but you do need proof that you have custody, your passport and copies of course, and the childs birth certificate (copy should do) and "chao baan" (head of the house hold) where you move the child to, agreeing to move your child into "his" tabien baan

"tomorrow he is going to the zoo with his nanny and her children that i employ while i teach. if she did turn up here and not see him does she have any ground to complain?"

- No, you cannot refuse her to see her child but you decide when she does. I would recommend that you only allow her to see her child when you are around

"I dont really want her to see him while she is so angry but when she can talk with me on a good level i will alow her to visit him"

- Good, it is your right as father with sole custody to take the decision that the mother is not currently in a suitable state to see her child.

I really advice you to get a por kor 14 and give a copy to her. EMS it to her. Let her read it and show it to her friends, someone will know enough to tell her what it means.

I think the main problem is that the mother worry that you will not allow her to see her child. Ensure her that you will let her see her child. The mother doens't care about who has legal rights, and after a while, she won't care that the grand mother doesn't take care of the child any longer either I would think. But she should have the right to see her child unless she is dangerous for the child

Good Luck

markdav13s · April 5, 2010

hi everyone thanks for your replies, and today i have been down to isaan lawyers and they have said that yes i do have sole custody,

last week i met with the mother to try to arrange her visiting time we came up with some sort of contract but her mother was always in the background telling her not to sign anything just to take me to court. so she didnt sign.

i took my son away for a few days to bangkok and when i returned i had a phonecall from my school saying that she turned up there last week with her mother and the police looking for me even though she knew i was in bangkok. she has told my co teachers a pack of Bulls+_) and the school called me today that if she comes again they will terminate my contract. also she went to my landladies house demanding that she open my home so she can go inside.

how can i stop her doing these things?

also she wants a copy of my new girlfriends id card which we were going to give until she started asking a lot of people what her surname is as they are going to report her as kidnapping him. while we were in bangkok my girlfriend got a call from my sons grandmother asking for her surname and her families address, but she wouldnt give it, then she got a call from a bangkok number and someone saying they were from AIS and needed to confirm her details and they needed to know her surname and mothers name and address. to which she didnt give any information.

How cna i stop the grandmother interfering and is there a law here about harrasment.

if i end up loosing my job it will mean that i will look for work elsewhere and i am sure that i will not tell her of my new location incase the same happens again. so why she is doing this i dont know.

Does anyone have any advise on what i can do?

anon345535 · April 6, 2010

if the police were with her then she has obviously lied to the police as well considering you have sole custody. if they knew that then why would they go with her? were the police present when they went to your house? it's obvious they are gonna try and cause problems for your girlfriend, surely they have no right to know any personal details about her. do you think your girlfriend could handle such "pressure"? she is also pregnant right?

i think your best option would be to re-locate

maybe also a visit to the police station with the necessary documentation would remove any interference on their behalf?

but consulting a lawyer would be the best course of action as always in these matters

good luck ol' chap

markdav13s · April 6, 2010

I have been to the police station and also consultedm with a lwyer and they look at the divorce paper amd they are confused.

i folowed mickeyideas adice and wnt to see issaan lawyers and they looked at the paper and they said right away that i have sole custody. and they translated what it said " mark davies ( me ) is the guardian Popakong but he will phisically be taken care of by the pooliungdoo"

they said i have 100 % decision making for him and the pooliungdoo is up to me to decide.

i also went to the umper office and requested a por kor 14 and i couldnt understand what they were saying but they kept pointing at the paper that i had and jestering that i already had it.

but when the police look at it they get confused with the wording on it.

is there a way i can make it more clear that i have sole custody, also how do i change who the pooliung doo is?

also my nanny is really worried and wants to know what to do if she turns up here while i am out?

Edited April 6, 2010 by markdav13s

Boo · April 7, 2010

Personally I would be asking Issan lawyers thai rep to come with you to the police station & amphur to clarify who has rights & custody & make the police aware that your ex & her mother are threatening & harassing you & your new gf & you want them to be informed to stop. It might also be worth asking issan lawyers to write your gf & mother an official letter outlining this & telling them to stop the threats & harassment, this will have 2 fold effect, one to make them completely aware of the legal situation & 2ndly to have proof of the harassment & aggravation they are causing when & if it ever comes to court.

MikeyIdea · April 7, 2010

The police would accept that the mother has right to see / take back her child and act because they don't know that the mother doesn't have custody any longer and you have the right to do what you do. Your first action must be to formally get the story down on paper and formally let the police at the police station in the khet you live and not to forget, the one where your childs school is know that you do have sole custody and have legal right to do what you do. The police aren't trained in family law but they are not stupid and know that they are not allowed to act without court order if they are shown evidence that the mother indeed doesn't have custody. The wording in the divorce agreement is a bit confusing but the lawyer and the complaint you file should convince them. A *nice* hint to the police that they break the law if they act again is good, they don't deliberately break the law in this case, understand that and be nice to them

You need to bring a lawyer to the police station(s) to file the complaint, you can file harassment yes but ask your lawyer for what is best suitable. There are 2 steps possible at the police station, 1) file the complaint 2) making the second set of papers (that you don't get copy of) to formally take the thing to court. You only want the first step so it is not difficult. The lawyer should be there to make sure that they write the words that YOU want on the paper – he will probably have to explain the custody situation to get them to do that and that is only good.

The reason why I recommend you to do this is that; 1) if you don't want to continue with a legal action, then nothing will ever happen, don't worry 2) You need to show the police report to your landlord and the school to reassure them that you do take action in this matter or they may kick you or your child out and 3) you really need the police report if you decide to take it to court 4) it would not look that good for you if you don't do this and the mother takes the thing to court instead

"maybe also a visit to the police station with the necessary documentation would remove any interference on their behalf" – Yes, a lawyer explaining and filing a complaint too will probably remove further police involvement. They would probably advice the mother to take legal action if she shows up after that. I am not surprised that the police are confused, the mother normally always has custody and the police have no education in family law. I would leave a copy of the complaint and one of the divorce agreement with both the landlord and the school so that they can feel assured that what they do is legal. Would probably feel better for them to have a couple of papers to give to the police if they come again

Por kor 14 – already have it - OK, I was hoping that you could get something clearer but not possible it seems

"is there a way i can make it more clear that i have sole custody, also how do i change who the pooliung doo is?"

Ask the lawyer if you can't get that down in the complaint you file. It will make the custody question clearer for whoever reads the police report although it doesn't formally change poo lieng doo of course (which you shouldn't formally have to do anyway) The sole guardian of XXXX has decided to change who is poo lieng doo. The old poo lieng doo, the mother, is no longer poo lieng doo but still has visitation rights. The old poo lieng doo, the mother, is harassing you, the school, your girl friend and the maid in the following ways because of that Sounds very clear, problem is to get the police to write it, you will need a lawyer to help you to get that into the complaint… Your girl friend can and probably should make a complaint of her own about harassment. As always, gathering evidence is very very important. In a way, the police report works as evidence too so it's a good thing to get that one the way you want. Perhaps the reason why the sole guardian decided to change poo lieng doo could be included into the complaint too but that will be difficult to get the police to do. Remember that there are 2 reasons; 1) Childs best first (development of the child was falling behind compared to other childs of the same age, whatever, showing that the father decides to act in the best interest of the child and 2) The old poo lieng doo, the mother, did not take care of the child at all and handed over the child to another poo lieng doo without your consent.

"also my nanny is really worried and wants to know what to do if she turns up here while i am out?"

Difficult for her, I understand if she is scared, I would file the complaint first and then look at relocating. Don't leave the maid and/or your girl friend with the child (without you present) where the mother can come and confront at this stage.

I don't see any reason why the father should stop at informing the police, making them aware of the legal situation only. When the lawyer is there, make sure to also get the complaint filed, discuss beforehand with the lawyer what you want in it and take the time needed to get it in or as close as possible to what you want (that may take 2 hours – my own experience), the complaint can and probably will be an important paper in what probably is going to be a court case sometime in the future. Or perhaps it can stop one.

"how can i stop her doing these things?" My advice is to get the complaint filed first of all, then nicely explain to the mother that she will have visitation rights in the future too, up to suitability. The grand mother is IMO most likely the driving force right now since she has been taking care of the child for some time so also be clear to explain that the grand mother will never! take care of the child again, she will be allowed to visit, same as the mother. If the grand mother is not happy with that, then recommend her to take the issue to court. It will slowly go in that the past situation will never come back. Secondly I think a well worded police report should help clarifying for the mother and the grand mother that visitation rights is all they have. These things together should calm them down.

"also she wants a copy of my new girlfriends id card" – Don't give them any information like that, nothing at all

"is there a law here about harrasment." Yes there is but I am pretty sure that you won't get anywhere with it in this case. Not enough to make it worthwhile anyway. Still, it could be a good weapon… so make the police report but use it at juvenile court instead

Remember that all odds are in YOUR favour at the juvenile court. The mother would have to get them to reverse a custody agreement that she herself happily signed. That is going to be very difficult indeed.

You can't loose your job because you haven't broken the law (unless you are working here illegally without work permit). My daughters mother did the same, screamed and raged about that she would make me loose my job and get me thrown out of the country, she would go to the HR department and "tell them"… If you have nothing to hide, don't worry

By the way, get a Thai passport and one from your home country. Get a new original birth certificate. I cannot see that a court would reverse the custody agreement but do it anyway while you easily can to be on the safe side.

Boo recommends; …" asking issan lawyers to write your gf & mother an official letter outlining this & telling them to stop the threats & harassment, this will have 2 fold effect, one to make them completely aware of the legal situation & 2ndly to have proof of the harassment & aggravation they are causing when & if it ever comes to court."

OK but I would spend the money on having the lawyer helping filing the complaint instead, remember, it's only the first step (the hand written one), not the final "court step" I am talking about. The complaint would fulfil the same role, but would be stronger if the issue does go to court in the future.

Lastly, I do think that you should try to get evidence that you really do intend to let the mother have visitation rights also in the future (getting it into the police report is one good way), I would also write a letter to her, have it translated to Thai at a translation agency (it's only 1,000 bath per page or less) and send it to her by mail. It is a good second piece of evidence to use in juvenile court. If the mother actually reads it or not is up to her. She signs to receive it or decides not to sign – both her decisions

Depending on if you can turn the tide - getting the mother and grand mother to calm down or not, maybe you could / should take the issue to the juvenile court yourself to get your decision to change poo lieng doo to yourself with mother still having visitation rights formalised, and get help getting her visitation scheduled by the court. DON'T do that before you have filed police report and letter from you clearly stating that you want mother to continue to have visitation rights.

Apologies for asking but how's your economical situation? The last paragraph will cost you over 100,000 bath

Edited April 7, 2010 by MikeyIdea

markdav13s · April 24, 2010

Hi everyone thanks for all your replies and thanks to mickeyideas replies very informative, thanks.

Well it looks like this one is now going to court. I had a lady turn up at my door this evening to present a paper for me to attend court.

Im not sure if im allowed to say what is on the letter but i will put a brief translation of it.

she is going to sue me to change who is poo pakong.

She says that I took him away from her in january which she was ok with and then i called her to say i would return him on the 31st of january which i didnt instead i left him with another ladyto take care of him and she is so worried about him as she doesnt know who she is and what her last name is. ( even though the date i took him was the 10th febuary when the school semester started and that was from the grandmother not her and as for him being left with another lady he has been with me the whole time along with my girlfriend.)

then it goes on to say

we have our divorce paper and i do not follow anything it says i never go to look at him or even care about him. ( even though I have had him up here every weekend since we divored and she hasnt exactly followed the divorce agreement as he was suposed to stay with her but she abandoned him to go to phuket a few days after the divorce.) she wants me to return him imediately and she wants to chnge the poopakong to her and for me to give her a salary of 4000 baht per month. before on the divorce agreement it said i needed to give her 4000 a month but i never gave it so she says, truth is i gave her grandmother 1000 baht every week until i took him then i stopped giving as far as i was concerned that money was for him and as he was with me i didnt need to give it to her but this money was given in cash every week so i dont have evidence that i did even give it. now she cannot talk for me to send him or continue giving money to her as i am poopakong and she wants the courts to change this so she has 100% controll and also cancel the divorce agreement before. and she says she wants this salary until he is 21 years old. also she wants me to pay for her court costs and lawyers fees, ( why the hel_l would i want to do that, but i was told that if i loose my case i will need to pay all the costs, is that true?)

there is more on this paper but i will get it translated properly then maybe update what i have put.

over the last few weeks we have been dicussing making a contract but i now thing this has been a delay for her to get the ball rolling in court. is it true that if she takes me to court i will look the worse in the judges eyes someone told me i should have taken her to court for it to look good for me.

Does anybody have any advice as to what i produce at court im sure the lawyers will tell me but if somone else has been to court then maybe they can also advise me what will be good.

at the moment i dont have anythin that i could produce as evidence apart from a slip of paper saying i have started him at school and i have given him his vaccines that are a good few month overdue as they couldnt even do them for him. he also has febrile fit wich is a seizure when he has a high fever it happens in 1 in 20 children and now after a lot of visits to the hospitals he is on medication to stop this but the mother is saying he has them because i dont take care of him well, can i get a doctors certificate to say that he is being taken care of well and he is fit and healthy?

what other thing can i do to get good pieces of evidence for myself. i think she has all the evidence she needs, a full family of people saying the same lying storey. so it will be my word against all the family.

when i turn up at court can the judge tell me to return him before they hear all the case ( i mean after the first day.)

also i have been reading off some court appearences that for me not to slate her just give suttle jestures, should i do this or should i tell them exactly what she is like?

she is a very good actor and i hope the courts can see through this.

I just want to get as much evidence to support my side so any help appreciated.

Thanks every one.

Edited April 24, 2010 by markdav13s

Mario2008 · April 25, 2010

Start a diary as soon as posible in which you log what you do with your child. Also keep all receipt etc of costs you make for your child and get a letter from school and the doctor, saying you look well after the child and take care of his needs and makes sure he goes to the doctor. Neighbours might also be a good idea.

It looks like it is going to be an ugly fight and proof will be very important. Don't worry about her taking you to court, just explain that you were bussy trying to negotiate with the mother. Who takes who to court is not that important.

markdav13s · April 26, 2010

Thanks for that Mario,

Ive got a doctors note already but he doesnt start the school until the 10 may, so i dont think they could write a letter for me,

how about her wanting me to pay all her legal fees can she ask this?

Mario2008 · April 26, 2010

Thanks for that Mario,
Ive got a doctors note already but he doesnt start the school until the 10 may, so i dont think they could write a letter for me,

how about her wanting me to pay all her legal fees can she ask this?

I don't know about the legal fees. But I suppose that a judge can award her the costs if she wins.

Get a good lawyer.

MikeyIdea · April 27, 2010

A few things:

You now need a good lawyer. I don’t think that she will be able to get the guardian question reversed but you never know. Get a good lawyer to be on the safe side.

Good advice from Mario2008

The reason why you acted is super important: If you had a good reason to do what you did, then the mothers attempt to change the agreement that she signed herself suddenly has no substance. There is one Supreme Court case in the link to the article by IsaanLawyers. The supreme Court basically didn’t find enough reason to change the agreement so they didn’t, that is what you would look at as a defense strategy if she sues, IMO.

There is another thing that you must stress: You have repeatedly attempted to arrange visitation rights to the mother (not the grand mother or the sister, they are irrelevant). You have no right to deny visitation rights to the mother and not pushing that you on several occasions tried to arrange it will give the mother a chance to say that she need guardianship back to ensure that she can be with her child. It will look very bad for you if you deny the mother to visit the child, the court can clearly use that as a reason to act, if they want to

If you cover the 2 above issues nicely… then you basically take away all the mothers weapons, the court has no reason to change the agreement I recommend that you state that you as father decided to act because the child got negatively affected by the environment the mother left the child in. Most important reason by far. Also, the child was not cared for by the person agreed to be poo lieng doo according to the divorce agreement, the mother, but with the grand mother. As a father you don’t have to accept that regardless of if the mother has custody or not. The mother was thereby the one who broke the agreement by the way, albeit not important really. The childs best and well-being is always the most important reason by far, always remember that. You must of course say that it has been like that for a long time, it would clearly look good if you said that you told the mother several times that you noticed that the child doesn’t develop as well as she should and that you would have to act if it doesn’t improve. The mother still left the child with the grand mother znd care didn’t improve…

At least 5 times seems to be the magic number. Sample: My friends custody battle for his 2 children that I posted about in January, The mother almost immediately left the children with another relative during the night and the older child told the father who asked the lawyer: Warn, warn 5 times then court. The mother was told that if she cannot take care of the child herself for whatever reason then she must hand over the child to the father, the father does not accept that anyone else take care of the child, full stop. The mother has no option and must accept. Your case: Never excuse that you took the child away from the grand mother or the mother even, you acted in the childs best interest, because the child didn’t get the care it should, you are in your full right to do that

You write – she is going to sue me to change who is … Has she sued yet or not? It sounds like it’s only a warning letter. Taking it to court is going to cost her at least 20,000 to 30,000 bath, does she have it? Confirm this with a lawyer but I think it is like this: If she sues in Phuket, then you would have to travel there, if you sue here first, then she should have to travel here. It may be better to take the bull by the horn and sue requesting the court to communicate and mediate. Where do you live and where does she live by the way? Someone else should recommend too, I’ve already done it I think Get a lawyers recommendation.

You have of course taken care of the child yourself all the time, the child has slept with you every single night since you took over the care of the child. You have also put her in good schooling (no problem, it will take 2 months before first session, child will already be in school close to where you live then). The mother is lying and saying that you never had the child during the weekends after the divorce, judges aren’t stupid, if you sue and state (or just state) that you decided to act because the child wasn’t cared for properly, then they know she is lying there, how would you know that if you didn’t see the child? In the money area, you just say the truth, money is for the child and you stopped in the best interest of the child and that you will continue to pay (parts of it, whatever) again if the mother comes and visits the child. Another way of seeing it is: If the mother doesn’t visit the child, then she shouldn’t have money, it’s for the child, not for her personally. 1 thing about that you have no evidence of the payments you did: The easiest way to go to jail in Thailand is to lie under oath… If someone wants to lie under oath about the cash payments you made, by all means go ahead and do so. Payments before were made in cash but if money will be paid in the future then they will be transferred to bank account in mothers name only and nothing else. Was the phrase regarding money in the agreement Kaa lieng doo? That basically translates to (money) value for taking care of the child. In theory you could then stop paying when you change poo lieng doo but I still think that it looks somewhat ugly and cheap. IMO, that was a tactical mistake.

Something like this: The father sees that his child during a longer period doesn’t get proper care and notifies the mother on several occasions: The mother does not act to improve the childs care and the father therefore act and take the child from the grand mother. After that, he repeatedly tries to arrange for the mother to visit the child but the mother refuse to discuss the issue. The father therefore request the court to communicate to the mother that the father has in the best interest of the child changed poo lieng do to himself and that he gives the mother visitation rights every second weekend (4 days per month, 8 days or whatever).

You need to ask a lawyer for advice, sue or not? I think that it’s probably better for you to sue. If you give the reasons above, then the mother has nothing, the courts have no reason to change the agreement. Even if they do (highly unlikely), then the least thing you would get is Monday to Friday and mother Saturday Sunday (grand mother nothing) and 4,000 bath per month. You handle education and thereby decide school close to where you live and mother pick up and return child to you (if she has money to come). Grand mother does not pick up child…

Who told you that if you loose, you have to pay all costs? I don’t think so, ask a lawyer though

“at the moment i dont have anythin that i could produce as evidence apart from a slip of paper saying i have started him at school and i have given him his vaccines that are a good few month overdue as they couldnt even do them for him” Good, what you have is supporting that you took over care of the child because the grand mother did not (and the mother didn’t even live with the child in the first place thank you very much )

“he is on medication to stop this but the mother is saying he has them because i dont take care of him well” Sure the mother will say that but judges aren’t stupid, you just proved the opposite with the vaccines, also save every single hospital bill and get new copies of old ones if you missed keeping them. The mother can say what she wants but I doubt she will have any paper evidence… If you do, then you look good.

“when i turn up at court can the judge tell me to return him before they hear all the case ( i mean after the first day.)” No, you are sole guardian, the courts would have to reverse that before child can be taken from you.

“also i have been reading off some court appearences that for me not to slate her just give suttle jestures, should i do this or should i tell them exactly what she is like?” My opinion - No and yes… Never say anything that doesn’t have an impact on the CHILD. You should not tell them exactly what she is like. You are not a former husband seeking revenge… But you can and should tell them what the impact on your child is. The father worry about the negative impact on the child that the mothers loud and drunken friends has, the father considers the mothers lifestyle working night time (no need to say where) and never knowing if she will come home to sleep with the child or sleep somewhere else (no need to mention where or with who) to be totally unacceptable! The father will of course consider increasing visitation rights in the future, if he sees that the mother improves (in suitability). It is in a way hints only, but they bite. Judges aren’t stupid, you acted because the child needed it, and you are in your full right to do so, never excuse yourself for doing it.

Good lawyer recommended, never excuse you action to take over care of the child yourself and good luck

markdav13s · April 27, 2010

A few things:
You now need a good lawyer. I don't think that she will be able to get the guardian question reversed but you never know. Get a good lawyer to be on the safe side.

Good advice from Mario2008

The reason why you acted is super important: If you had a good reason to do what you did, then the mothers attempt to change the agreement that she signed herself suddenly has no substance. There is one Supreme Court case in the link to the article by IsaanLawyers. The supreme Court basically didn't find enough reason to change the agreement so they didn't, that is what you would look at as a defense strategy if she sues, IMO.

There is another thing that you must stress: You have repeatedly attempted to arrange visitation rights to the mother (not the grand mother or the sister, they are irrelevant). You have no right to deny visitation rights to the mother and not pushing that you on several occasions tried to arrange it will give the mother a chance to say that she need guardianship back to ensure that she can be with her child. It will look very bad for you if you deny the mother to visit the child, the court can clearly use that as a reason to act, if they want to

If you cover the 2 above issues nicely… then you basically take away all the mothers weapons, the court has no reason to change the agreement I recommend that you state that you as father decided to act because the child got negatively affected by the environment the mother left the child in. Most important reason by far. Also, the child was not cared for by the person agreed to be poo lieng doo according to the divorce agreement, the mother, but with the grand mother. As a father you don't have to accept that regardless of if the mother has custody or not. The mother was thereby the one who broke the agreement by the way, albeit not important really. The childs best and well-being is always the most important reason by far, always remember that. You must of course say that it has been like that for a long time, it would clearly look good if you said that you told the mother several times that you noticed that the child doesn't develop as well as she should and that you would have to act if it doesn't improve. The mother still left the child with the grand mother znd care didn't improve…

At least 5 times seems to be the magic number. Sample: My friends custody battle for his 2 children that I posted about in January, The mother almost immediately left the children with another relative during the night and the older child told the father who asked the lawyer: Warn, warn 5 times then court. The mother was told that if she cannot take care of the child herself for whatever reason then she must hand over the child to the father, the father does not accept that anyone else take care of the child, full stop. The mother has no option and must accept. Your case: Never excuse that you took the child away from the grand mother or the mother even, you acted in the childs best interest, because the child didn't get the care it should, you are in your full right to do that

You write – she is going to sue me to change who is … Has she sued yet or not? It sounds like it's only a warning letter. Taking it to court is going to cost her at least 20,000 to 30,000 bath, does she have it? Confirm this with a lawyer but I think it is like this: If she sues in Phuket, then you would have to travel there, if you sue here first, then she should have to travel here. It may be better to take the bull by the horn and sue requesting the court to communicate and mediate. Where do you live and where does she live by the way? Someone else should recommend too, I've already done it I think Get a lawyers recommendation.

You have of course taken care of the child yourself all the time, the child has slept with you every single night since you took over the care of the child. You have also put her in good schooling (no problem, it will take 2 months before first session, child will already be in school close to where you live then). The mother is lying and saying that you never had the child during the weekends after the divorce, judges aren't stupid, if you sue and state (or just state) that you decided to act because the child wasn't cared for properly, then they know she is lying there, how would you know that if you didn't see the child? In the money area, you just say the truth, money is for the child and you stopped in the best interest of the child and that you will continue to pay (parts of it, whatever) again if the mother comes and visits the child. Another way of seeing it is: If the mother doesn't visit the child, then she shouldn't have money, it's for the child, not for her personally. 1 thing about that you have no evidence of the payments you did: The easiest way to go to jail in Thailand is to lie under oath… If someone wants to lie under oath about the cash payments you made, by all means go ahead and do so. Payments before were made in cash but if money will be paid in the future then they will be transferred to bank account in mothers name only and nothing else. Was the phrase regarding money in the agreement Kaa lieng doo? That basically translates to (money) value for taking care of the child. In theory you could then stop paying when you change poo lieng doo but I still think that it looks somewhat ugly and cheap. IMO, that was a tactical mistake.

Something like this: The father sees that his child during a longer period doesn't get proper care and notifies the mother on several occasions: The mother does not act to improve the childs care and the father therefore act and take the child from the grand mother. After that, he repeatedly tries to arrange for the mother to visit the child but the mother refuse to discuss the issue. The father therefore request the court to communicate to the mother that the father has in the best interest of the child changed poo lieng do to himself and that he gives the mother visitation rights every second weekend (4 days per month, 8 days or whatever).

You need to ask a lawyer for advice, sue or not? I think that it's probably better for you to sue. If you give the reasons above, then the mother has nothing, the courts have no reason to change the agreement. Even if they do (highly unlikely), then the least thing you would get is Monday to Friday and mother Saturday Sunday (grand mother nothing) and 4,000 bath per month. You handle education and thereby decide school close to where you live and mother pick up and return child to you (if she has money to come). Grand mother does not pick up child…

Who told you that if you loose, you have to pay all costs? I don't think so, ask a lawyer though

"at the moment i dont have anythin that i could produce as evidence apart from a slip of paper saying i have started him at school and i have given him his vaccines that are a good few month overdue as they couldnt even do them for him" Good, what you have is supporting that you took over care of the child because the grand mother did not (and the mother didn't even live with the child in the first place thank you very much )

"he is on medication to stop this but the mother is saying he has them because i dont take care of him well" Sure the mother will say that but judges aren't stupid, you just proved the opposite with the vaccines, also save every single hospital bill and get new copies of old ones if you missed keeping them. The mother can say what she wants but I doubt she will have any paper evidence… If you do, then you look good.

"when i turn up at court can the judge tell me to return him before they hear all the case ( i mean after the first day.)" No, you are sole guardian, the courts would have to reverse that before child can be taken from you.

"also i have been reading off some court appearences that for me not to slate her just give suttle jestures, should i do this or should i tell them exactly what she is like?" My opinion - No and yes… Never say anything that doesn't have an impact on the CHILD. You should not tell them exactly what she is like. You are not a former husband seeking revenge… But you can and should tell them what the impact on your child is. The father worry about the negative impact on the child that the mothers loud and drunken friends has, the father considers the mothers lifestyle working night time (no need to say where) and never knowing if she will come home to sleep with the child or sleep somewhere else (no need to mention where or with who) to be totally unacceptable! The father will of course consider increasing visitation rights in the future, if he sees that the mother improves (in suitability). It is in a way hints only, but they bite. Judges aren't stupid, you acted because the child needed it, and you are in your full right to do so, never excuse yourself for doing it.

Good lawyer recommended, never excuse you action to take over care of the child yourself and good luck

Thank you once again mickeyidea, it is a very helpfull post,

Just one thing i didnt fully understand is i have made payments while the child was there as stated in my agreement but stopped when he stayed with me and i dont have any proof of this as it was cash handed over every week.

you say that you can go to jail for lying under oath even though it is the truth and i have no proof should i just not mention it, even though i know the mother and all her family is going to say that i never gave monies to them even her young children from another thai relationship in the past has been taught to say it.

when they came to where i am stayin which is Bua Yai in Korat they had the children with them and there was a person I was using to help me translate so we could make a visiting contract for her, my traslator asked the young child (who is only 5 years old) do you still love mark to which he replied he never loved me as i have never given him money. ( even though I took care of him during the whole relationship as if he was my own.)

I heared a child say this especialy at that age to be so specific, which shows that they are being corrupted as what to say ready for when it comes to court.

I also have an appointment with the manager of issan lawyers ( Sebastian) along with one one of his Thai lawyers.

when i went there yesterday with the court order the receptionist said it was a document for me to contact the courts within 14 days to arrange a meeting. i should know more when i meet with sebastian

Edited April 27, 2010 by markdav13s

MikeyIdea · April 27, 2010

”you say that you can go to jail for lying under oath even though it is the truth and i have no proof should i just not mention it,”

No, I say: Don’t be afraid of telling the truth, never excuse your decision to take over care of the child and do tell them that you paid the grand mother in cash every week when you came to be with your child. It is the mother and the grand mother who are digging their own graves by lying. The judges aren’t stupid, the negotiator isn’t stupid. They claim that the father never visited the child after the divorce, yet the father claims that he several times told the mother that the child didn’t get proper care where she currently was and therefore decided to take control over the care himself as things did not improve. How could he have known if he never saw the child? Why did the mother wait for so long if she never got any money?

You’re understandably a bit afraid of the Thai courts I think, but don’t be. A good parent who does the best for his child has nothing to worry from the Thai Juvenile court system. He may not necessarily get everything he wants but he will get what is the best for the child. You are in a very good position regarding that.

“say that i never gave monies to them even her young children from another thai relationship in the past has been taught to say it” This will never go to children testifying in court, the mother can say that you never gave money, you say that you did not only pay for, but you also cared for her children existing children and no one wants to hear anything more because it has nothing to do with the current case anyway. If the mother wants to loose face by bringing up irrelevant stuff, then let her do that and don’t worry about it.

I suggest sue the mother, it’s fairly normal in custody cases and the courts will combine the 2 cases anyway of course. I see it as basically the only thing you do when you sue is to formalize your side of the story on paper so that 1) the court already has it when you come (instead of getting to hear it by your side having to answer questions) and 2) it is not (only) she suing and you answering, it is suddenly the sole custodian suing and she answering. If the father’s lawyer is just a little bit aggressive, then it can be “the father had to act to protect the well-being of the child” and the mother will be the one who has to answer questions, the mother suddenly becomes the one who has to defend herself. Your lawyer should take the lead when the meeting starts (something he only can do if you have sued too), in my opinion.

Repeat…

I think the 2 main points in the other post are very important: You as father had to act and take control over the care of the child as care was unacceptable and you repeatedly (at least 5 times anyway) told the mother to improve the care and the mother did nothing including continuing to let the grand mother taking care of the child, you have repeatedly tried to arrange visitation rights for the mother but she refuses. The father asks the court to communicate to the mother that the father has changed poo lieng doo and that the mother is allowed to visit the child 2 times per month, something like that. You must rehearse reasons for why care was unacceptable so that you know what to say but that shouldn’t be too difficult. Father noticed health deteriorating, vaccinations got overdue (here’s evidence by the way), development was falling behind, the childs ability to concentrate fell behind (most people in Thailand know that watching too much TV and cartoons is detrimental to children’s ability to concentrate, although many choose not to care about it…), the only thing that the grand mother ever did was to turn on the TV and let the child watch cartoons, the child did not get proper food, only milk and candy, the child did not get enough sleep

You should decide based on what IsaanLawyers Thai lawyer recommends. I would be surprised if he doesn’t recommend sue, let me know if he doesn’t please, I would really want to know why

Good Luck

markdav13s · April 30, 2010

Hi, thanks again mickey idea,

I went yesterday to see lawyers and they said they cant guarentee but i was looking good. we sat down and he was pretending to be a layer for her and wanted me to explain why he was better off with me and show evidence, very difficult, also he said if i am at school and he is at shool isnt he better of staying at home with the mother, I said but she doesnt stay home and i guarentee that if she wins then she will be back to phuket leaving him with the grand mother and by him going to school and if he was with his mother he would have to start school eventually so it will be the same position as mine, but again it was a very difficult to answer.

I asked about if i should get my papers changed and he said no because she is already addmitting that she has no powers by sueing my.

This is going to be a very difficult thing to do, i am trying to come up with thing but i keep coming up with thing that would be only my say so. however i did go to a hotmail account that i never used for a long time to see if i had sent anything in the past and when i tried to log in the history showed her old email address and it allowed me to log in. it had loads of emails there showing that she has been talking and meeting with other people even back to the date that we were together. but lawyer thinks we can only use stuff up untill the day we divorced.

Thanks again Mickeidea and everyone that has contributed. I now need to get my serious thinking hat on.

MikeyIdea · May 6, 2010

You seem to have a lawyer who understands the importance of being prepared for court. That's a very good start

I now need to get my serious thinking hat on.

The child hat, I love that. Everything you think from now on should be from the childs perspective, what's best for the child You can do a good job there. Everything is not necessarily exactly answering the direct question you get, but sometimes only to satisfy what the person asking wants to ensure

One thing: You never took the child from the mother, you took the child from the grand mother, remember to get that message through.

"Isn't he better..."" I wouldn't only bring up that the mother was/is not there, she can turn that around to "that was before". I think the main point in your defence should be attack by the way, but anyway... Your best defence in my opinion is that you as father noted that the previous arrangement was detirmental to the childs development. Coupled with comments about the importance of sleep, proper food, stimulating environment, everything that the previous environment didn't provide.

Please let us know the outcome and Good Luck

markdav13s · June 2, 2010

hi everyone.

lost wanted to post an update on recent events.

I went to the social services department a week last friday and all seemed to go well she asked me lots of questions but only based on what the ex had told her, I would liked to have given her more of the story but I wasnt given the opportunity.

the following monday I was due in the courts for the firdt time but my lawyer told me not to go as its only for negotiations, after this was over the lawyer called and give us a date for the trial. and he said it will all be dealt with on that day. also he said that he has contacted the social services department and they will submit a report recomending that he will be better off staying with me. How much weight does this report hold? also is the court process only a day?

The next day the mother turned up at the school where my son is at and tried to snatch him but luckily the school is aware of the sittuation and waited for me to arrive. when i arrived i kept calm and there was no end of abuse thrown at me lots of foul language was given to me and my new partener in Thai and english. it was terrible, there were other parents and children there to listen to this even my son, I know he is still young but he is at the age where he picks everything up even if its said once. And guess what when he returned home he repeated a word that he had heared that day "f&^K" only once. when my ex and her mother realised they werent getting anywhere they left, but not before they expressed how bad the school and the food was for my son to other teachers.she also told me how soon I will die. All was recorded on video but not very clear as there was a lot of crying kids .

on Monday this week my son went to school and the calss played outside in the playground for a few hours, and the next day he got a fever at school which caused gim to have a seizure. the school contacted me and they rushed him to the hospital wher I quickly followed. he stayed at the hospital overnight and the next morning the school contacted me and my new partener to tell us that the ex had contacted the school to find out what happened and where he was, this is such a small town any thing happens it get back to her straight away. I was on my way back to the hospital when i got a call from my partener saying the ex had come.

I arrived in the hospital to find my sons hands and shirt covered in blood. My new partener said to me that she and my son were in the room sleeping when they turned up and the ex and her mother startaed giving her lots of abuse so she left the room to call for a nurse. while she was talikng to the nurse she saw the ex and her mother walking down the corridor with my son with blood coming out of his arm where they ( NOT A NURSE) had removed his drip. The nurses and security stopped them from taking him from the hospital.

When i arrived i was given again abuse that i dont take care of him well and he is always sick. I demanded to know who removed his medication and she said she was taking him to the bankok hospital 3 hours away. I called a nurse in and asked who removed the drip and they said they didnt know but the ex and her mother were the only ones in the room. The police were called and yet again they didnt want to get involved. i wanted to make a report at the police station and the lazy cops didnt want to saying that its the mother who should be taking care of him not me even though I have sole custody. and we are in the process of going to court. to which they said to my parter we cant win as she is thai and i am not and she is his mother. Then my partener rared up at them saying she will have the lawyer her soon we just want to make a report not their advice. eventually we got a report.

also while I was at the hospital she brought along two guys That she thought could help her take him from me but they were so drunk that they couldnt walk straight let alone confront me, the police did ask who they were and the grandmother said they were family members wanting to visit my son, which I know the boys from my old vilage and I know they arent family just local Idiots. Once again all was caught on video.

Also while at the hospital I said to the ex to go and and wait for the courts decision and she said she has given somethin and has won already before we have attended court, can someone tell me, are these judges corrupted or is she just mouthing off, as its not going to be a fair courtcase if she has done that.

Mario2008 · June 3, 2010

Don't worry. With her behavior at school and certainly with her behavior at the hospital she hasn't exactly made things looking any better for her. A (Thai) judge will find it very seriously that she tried to take the child out of the hospital and prevented medical care. She is just bluffing and give you a chance to getting sole custody.

MikeyIdea · June 4, 2010

Sorry to hear about the situation, but think like this: What happened is actually good for the future.

Again I see attack as your best defence. I suggest contacting the lawyer and now it's for you to sue to get the mothers visitation rights removed. Alternatively: Ask advice from your lawyer what the best evidence you can get in this situation. Have / get good Evidence and the court can remove visitation rights instead of, as the mother request, give her custody back (although unlikely). One day would normally have been enough yes, considering the complications, maybe not. I still lean toward the court will decide in one day - so have your evidence of what happened at the school ready and available for the judges to read.

The police will not want to act against a member of the family, sure. You must document what happened and work another way. Did you take video? Request a letter from the school describing what happened. That you probably can get. Regarding the incident at the hospital: They will not accept to put anything down on paper or accept to be witnesses. BUT: You can go to the police and via a "jaeng kwam" demand the paper (don't know what it is formally called) that allow you to get the child examined for legal purposes. The same hospital may have a doctor cleared to do the examination - good. The doctor will have no problems writing that hospital staff didn't remove the drip. You could have done this anyway, you're running out of time. Maybe the doctors examination is not necessary, ask the lawyer. I'd guess he says not

It seems that the mother is unstable and prepared to lie in court so don't take the case lightly. You need some sort of evidence of what happened, at least formal evidence from the school. What teachers write is good, they are not members of family or anything so judges do normally pay attention to information from them.

If you keep your sole custody - which I think you will - then I would move after 6 months if I were you. Formally announce in writing one month in advance to the mother that you will move and clarify that she may visit the child as normal (she pays for the travelling though...)

Sorry about what happened to your child but see it positively. You and the future of your child look good, better than before the incident.

Good Luck

markdav13s · June 5, 2010

Thanks for the replies again Mickeyidea and mario2008,

yesterday I was at school and I recieved a phonecall from my new wife saying that two women had taken my son.

I raced home to find my wife on the door step crying her eyes out. she told me what happened.

There has been one of our neighbours (recently moved here) calling us to teach her daughter english so she said she will come and pay the money. she came to the house so my wife oppened the door to talk with her, at this time my son was sleeping. while my wife was talking with this woman she said she needed to check with her boyfriend on the phone. so she phoned someone and then two women came running around the corner one pinned my heavily pregnant wife to the ground and the other went inside and snatched my son. I am possitive that the lady coming to pay the money was in on it.

when she told me this i raced away on my bike to catch up with them as they left in a taxi. my wife called the police who werent interested so she then called a friend of hers and that friend called her friend who is the chief of police in another city. that police got police stopps set up and when i reached Phimai I got a call saying they had been stopped and were being held in phimai police station. so i went there. when i arrived there was channel7 there with video cameras I walked in and saw the sister of my exwife holding my son and he was screaming. I walked over to her and grabbed hold of my son and then onother sister came running ove and started punching me in the back of the head while the other was pulling on my sons leggs telling me to release their nephew. the police then came rushing over and demanded i give my son to the police officer whi I kept saying in a ster voice MAI (no) then the mother and grandmother came over and the police were saying its her son she gave birth to him give him to her. I said I have papers to say I am his guardian, but they were determined to give him to her.i said wait for my lawyer to arive.

After a while the ex wifes lawyer came and the police didnt want to wait for my lawyer they kept saying "you come" and I kept saying no.

After the lawyer came they sat down and talked and they wanted to keep him for a few day to which i said no as she is dangerous for him. shes already been to the hospital and removed his drip and now shes taken him without caring that he needs his medication ( he was diagnosed as having epilepsy while he was at hospital after lots of previous tests)

the lawyer then asked me to take him to the bangkok hospital with them for a proper doctor to examin him (proper doctor) and they will pay for all expense, I said ok. so the ex and sisters got in a taxi and left to wait in korat. my lawyer then said if i go she will have the doctors admit him and it will be difficult to get him out. so i took him home. My lawyer has advise me to not return to my homeand maybe leave korat so i am staying at a friends, to scared to send him to school even.

My wife has been to the police to make a report and guess what they dont want to do one, so she and her friend screamed the place down and called the chief police agian just to get it done, I cant press charges against the sisters as the police say that the ex's sisters and mother have every right to snatch him, which isnt true, but what can we do. even the police are uneducated.

MikeyIdea · June 7, 2010

Hmmmmmmm, This is physical abuse on a pregnant woman and the mother can be linked to it. Then there is physical abduction. And one physical abuse on you. The one on you is from 2 relatives of the mother. And the mother is linked to all 3 acts.

I recommend to immediately contact your lawyer and ask if he doesn't think it is a good idea to request an emergency hearing with Juvenile Court. (kaa doan, laeng doan, there is another formal legal word but I can't remember it). I would think that it is a very good idea since the mother has abused both the child and is involved in the abuse of your pregnant wife – You are the father – as father, you clearly have the right to consider the mother dangerous for your child after this – and it would also strengthen your case of taking the child from the grand mother in the first case. Emergency case to request the court to communicate to the mother that the father has temporarily removed the mothers visitation rights because she is dangerous for the child and that the father will consider to grant the mother visitation rights again when the father consider her stable enough. Note: It is Not an emergency case to remove the mothers visitation rights because she is dangerous for the child. You are sole guardian and have the right to do that without a court decision and you have in fact already done it.

The childs future is going to be decided in Juvenile court anyway so probably best to try there first. I don't mean that the civil and criminal cases should not be filed, I don't know if they should – up to if the emergency hearing is accepted or not and what happens there (you may have to go on with the civil charges anyway, depending on how long time emergency hearing takes) and what the lawyer recommends. As I see it: At the end of the day, the only thing that possible civil and criminal cases against the mother do is to formalise evidence so that you can present a stronger case against the mother in Juvenile court. It may cost you quite a bit in lawyers costs and the mother and her relatives will probably not pay even if they are ordered to. The people who abused your pregnant wife could end up in jail for a short period of time but the mother would hardly get jail, more likely a one or two thousand bath fine. I don't think that Juvenile court will put much weight on the kidnapping of the child, the mother is uneducated and stressed up etc etc, but – tamm rai lanngai dek (hurt the child) by removing the drip and trying to remove the child from treatment at the hospital (and bringing 2 obviously drunk men there to help her do it) and being part of physical abuse on your appointed caretaker of your child (and your new wife), a pregnant woman… I guarantee that is looked down on. Doesn't increase the mothers chances really.

The mother sued you around the 20^th of April didn't she? There should be a fact finding session around middle to end of June. Whatever you do, get it done before the fact finding session so that you have evidence to show there. Abuse of you pregnant new wife, kidnapping, or just emergency hearing. Just do something so that you can come in the first hearing that comes (the mothers hearing or your emergency hearing) with you as the accuser and not as the defender. What comes to my mind here is that you have done the right thing, you have acted in the childs best interest and as a father you are allowed to do what you have done. But if you do nothing then it will be you summoned to court by the mother suing you. I don't think that you should accept that. You have no reason to accept that, especially not after what has happened now.

If you follow through on the civil and criminal law charges - I think you need some help: The police will not take action against anyone from the extended family. BUT it doesn't mean that it cannot be done, it just means that You cannot do it, The first step "jaem kwam" is not the important step. What s important is saab – (pronounced as the Thai word for exam) – that's when you basically push it out of the police hands and on to the district attorney (ajjagarn). Ajjagarn will then decide if he will allow the issue to go to court or will reject it. The police do not have the right to refuse you to do step 2. They simply do not have the right to. You will need a lawyer to get them to do it and you need a lawyer to get it right. Don't do step 2 without a lawyer present. You won't get the police to write what you want either and that is not good, you also don't know the correct words to use. Police in higher position at the police station will know the district attorney, through work. The police could also get blamed by the district attorney for letting "crap" through to the courts (not saying that this issue is that, just to explain their working relationship) – the police should have handled this, why does it have to go to court?

I have once forced the police to do step 2 at the local police station even though they didn't want to do it but it wasn't easy (not custody case – another issue). I have been speaking more Thai than English in average for 10 years now, that helped. It also helped that I in quick Thai forced the point to sarawat (the policeman in charge) - that in fact he has no legal right to refuse me. The police had all the time not wanted me to submit the video evidence I had burned on DVD either (as ajjagarn most likely would reject my case without evidence – which was exactly what they wanted), but I knew that and refused to bulge. I finally told the policeman in charge – sarawat (roi waen) – Jutt loei, stop it, you have no legal right to refuse me to submit evidence, if you don't know the law in Thailand, then don't speak. That made him angry, he turned his back and walked out, and I took the opportunity to tell the other policeman – you Will include this evidence. Since his boss had admitted defeat, he accepted. This is not a good way of doing things. I made 2 mistakes 1) I wouldn't have had to use such hard words and make a higher policeman on my home police station dislike me had I brought a lawyer 2) I found some words that were not the correct ones when I went through it all. It also took me longer time to be sure that I got the correct meaning down and that made the police irritated. My key take-away here would be that I would not do it without my lawyer if I ever have to do it again.

If you do step 2 – saab - Physical abuse of a pregnant woman (your wife) is nothing that ajjagarn will reject, -> he will pass that one on to the courts for sure – she will have to file the charges of course. Ajjagarn may or may not pass on what happened at the hospital, you as father must make a complaint that the mother tamm rai lanngai look. A photo showing blood on your child would be good or necessary, I don't know which. A lawyer could possibly force the issue about kidnapping charges too I would think – you are sole guardian and you have removed visitation rights – but what's the point? The mother wouldn't get jail anyway, she would maybe get max 2,000 bath penalty. And whatever the mother gets, the purpose of it all is more to formalise things to have clearer evidence against the mothers suitability to provide to Juvenile court. How to best and cheapest get that?

What's needed? You of course need to ask the lawyer but: This is my opinion: Minimum "of formalisation" I think is to bring the lawyer to the police station to get jaem kwam step 1 of the physical abuse of your wife (when the child was abducted). She is pregnant so she should definitely demand the paper which allows her to go and get a doctors examination "for legal purposes" and do the examination. Even if you stop there, then a well written jaem kwam by a pregnant woman, containing abuse of a pregnant woman…, the person the father appointed as caretaker of his child at the time of abduction, should affect the perception the judges get of the mother considerably. Isn't that what it is? It's painting the picture of the mothers unsuitability. Think of who the audience of the jeam kwam is for. It's actually for the judges at Juvenile Court. It is also the easiest paper to get the police to accept to write as it is a third person making a complaint about physical abuse in connection to a kidnapping of a child. Attached evidence is the divorce and custody agreement that the police refuse to read correctly – and the police have no right to refuse to include it. Make no mistake, the district attorney and the judges at Juvenile court of course know what it means. If the police refuse, then I would acidly tell them just that – it is not for you, it's for the district attorney – and he knows what it means. You should make sure to tell the police that you will be back for step 2, saab, regardless of if you plan to or not.

Again, the police do not have the right to refuse a father making a complaint (saab) that the mother tamm rai lanngai look (hurt the child). This is regardless of if the father has sole custody or not. The police have no right to refuse to accept the custody agreement as evidence when your pregnant wife files her complaint.

"the lawyer then asked me to take him to the bangkok hospital with them for a proper doctor to examin him (proper doctor) and they will pay for all expense, I said ok. so the ex and sisters got in a taxi and left to wait in korat. my lawyer then said if i go she will have the doctors admit him and it will be difficult to get him out. so i took him home. My lawyer has advise me to not return to my homeand maybe leave korat so i am staying at a friends, to scared to send him to school even."

Mark - Don't agree to anything you don't have to. Why did you agree to that? And the mother promising to pay… You don't want the mother to pay anything while the child is with you, that was a trick by the mothers lawyer. He knows that if the mother pays for hospital for the child, then she should also be entitled to visitation rights – or more. The lawyer put you in a situation where if you don't take the child to hospital for a "proper investigation", then the mother can say: Look how bad he is, I even offered to pay for it all and he still didn't take my sick daughter to a good hospital…

You are sole guardian, you don't have to agree with anything. My lawyer used the word "dictator" when advising me when we talked about sole custody. What can you do now? Not sure. Check with the hospital where he was admitted first time, they will probably recommend that further tests are not necessary for now, then send a letter with receivers acknowledgement to the mother that you as father and sole guardian, on the hospitals recommendation, have decided to not do any further tests at this stage. Or choose another hospital that you will not tell the mother about. Chulalongkorn hospital sounds like a good choice – undisputable reputation and still good prices. Horrible waiting times though, be there before 6 AM with the child and maybe you will see a doctor before lunch. What you need is just something so that you lawyer can say to the judges – Irrelevant, the doctors from xxx hospital recommends no further tests at this stage.

Expensive private hospitals in Bangkok do honour what the law says about custody. A friend of mine was denied information about his children because the mother used her right as sole guardian (they had not registered their marriage) to force their silence (in this case Samitivej Srinakarin). The father was told to show formal evidence of custody before they hand out any information.

Long post… You need a lawyer again, was it really Issanlawyers who came to the police station or was it someone else? I personally think that a lawyer should have been able to do a better job there.

Good Luck

Edited June 7, 2010 by MikeyIdea

markdav13s · June 8, 2010

Things get worse by the day. Ch7 have broadcast our appearence on friday in phi mai police station, There was well over an hour of video footage and and they only decided to a bad bit , they have not even asked for my sise of the story they just went ahead and broadcast a story that I had kidnapped my son from her, They dont know anything about the situation or the past history, but they just go ahead and allow the ex wife to voice her view and and now the whole nation is looking to me and my new wife as the bad people in this and not the way we should be looked at. I now go to school and every person is looking at me as a person that is no good, why is these people so small minded, they listen to something and believe every word of it. Is there a complaints department for ch7 or is does anybody think I should contact them and give my side of the story or just let it go until after the trail. I just hope that what she has done doesnt affect the court outcome, also are they allowed to show thing on national news while there is a court case pending?

MikeyIdea · June 8, 2010

Things get worse by the day. Ch7 have broadcast our appearence on friday in phi mai police station, There was well over an hour of video footage and and they only decided to a bad bit , they have not even asked for my sise of the story they just went ahead and broadcast a story that I had kidnapped my son from her, They dont know anything about the situation or the past history, but they just go ahead and allow the ex wife to voice her view and and now the whole nation is looking to me and my new wife as the bad people in this and not the way we should be looked at. I now go to school and every person is looking at me as a person that is no good, why is these people so small minded, they listen to something and believe every word of it. Is there a complaints department for ch7 or is does anybody think I should contact them and give my side of the story or just let it go until after the trail. I just hope that what she has done doesnt affect the court outcome, also are they allowed to show thing on national news while there is a court case pending?

I'm sorry to hear about the escalation. It is not fun to be famous for the wrong reasons. I don't know if / how it will affect. If probably yes, how, don't know. BUT: In my opinion… The mother is escalating the issue wildly, you shouldn't just do nothing. Or to put in another way, I think doing nothing would benefit the mother

In my opinion, you should not be the person responding to the mother, that will make it easier for the juvenile court to take the mothers road, you should push with what she also has done that benefit you. We should see problems as opportunities… I find that difficult in this case. I'm still thinking of requesting an emergency hearing with Juvenile Court. That is working where the decision about the childs future will be taken one day whatever happens on TV, in other courts etc. The worst thing that can happen is that they turn you down, then you will still have escalated the importance of the situation and have paper evidence of your point: The father has temporarily removed visitation rights for the mother because she is dangerous for the child. And in a way, if they turn down the hearing, then they also consider it to be OK that you have possession of the child… Not too bad, is it?

I wish you had communicated in writing the change of visitation rights for the mother. Change from whenever to only after appointment etc.. What this has escalated into - removing visitation rights is very hard, it is not sustainable and the mother will get Juvenile court to get her visitation rights back one day. I know that the mothers behaviour forced it but still. You also stopped the agreed alimony, not even legal minimum. These 2 things should have been done differently to be on the safe side

Do you still use Isaanlawyers? Or did you use another lawyer at the last incident? I think he was a bit lame. Anyway, ask IsaanLawyers about requesting an emergency hearing;

The father engage/request Juvenile Court to communicate to the mother that the father as sole custodian has temporarily removed the mothers visitation rights as she on several occasions have shown herself as unable to control herself, unstable, and violent and dangerous for the child. The father will reinstate organised visitation rights and alimony to the mother when he considers the mother stable. Or even stronger: The father request Juvenile court to act and help the father to protect the child from the unstable and violent mother

The above paragraph I think addresses the important things that needs to be pushed in front of the judges eyes; that the father has acted in the best interest of the child, and why the father acted, and that it is a temporary measure. I suppose an overview of what she has done can/should be included too but perhaps not. The lawyer must advice. I don't know how to write stuff like that, my lawyer has recommended me that wording is very important. The words describing the mothers behaviour should reinforce to the judges that the mother is dangerous for the child, unsuitable in her current condition; words like unable to control herself, uncontrollably are very good to use, violently abused is likewise good as is the word violent, prevent medical care is an important point to get through. The phrase the police *detained* is good, it may not be entirely correct but so what. Is communicate the correct word to use?

Back to basics, you have sole custody, the court should/will not change that easily; It shouldn't be too difficult to prove that the father taking the legal decisions for the child is wise, considering that the mother is unstable and violent. I still worry though, could the courts do something with the custody because the father removed the mothers visitation rights? Unlikely but still. I'd like to see on paper before any hearing that the father will reinstate organised visitation rights for the mother again when her behaviour no longer is dangerous for the child. That would take away the courts reason to act. What does that better than requesting an emergency hearing? And in the request point out that it is temporary

I wouldn't care about contacting Channel 7. Your fight is in Juvenile Court, not with stupid media. Also CNN and BBC show what they know the users want to see rather than unbiased news. Stand straight, you are in the right and you know it, sod what others think. The mother clearly deserves no respect, make keeping the sole custody your main priority, then use that power to - not refuse visitation rights - but minimize the mothers ability to use them - for practical reasons

Good Luck

Edited June 8, 2010 by MikeyIdea

Sign In

What Is A Poo Pakong?

Recommended Posts

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in

Recently Browsing 0 members

Announcements

Topics

Latest posts...

Popular in The Pub

ASEANNOW

MORE INFO

POPULAR AREAS

CONTACT US