Thai Buddhists Reinstating The Women's Order

[sabaijai]

Thai Buddhist group tries to reinstate order of woman monks

By Channel NewsAsia's Indo-China Correspondent May Ying Welsh, May 20, 2005

BANGKOK, Thailand -- This Sunday, Buddhists around the world celebrate Vesak Day, also known as Wisakha Bucha Day in Thailand. Buddhists believe it is the day on which three events took place in the life of the Buddha - His Birth, Enlightenment and Final Nirvana.

In the kingdom, a small group of women are challenging the Buddhist authorities by trying to reinstate an ancient and controversial order of monks.

It is 6am in Bangkok and the monks are out on their morning rounds, accepting alms from the community.

There is just one difference - these are women monks, and they say they are the first in Thai history.

The group is headed by Dhammananda, who was ordained two years ago by a Sri Lankan woman monk, as a "Bhikkuni" in the Theravadan tradition.

Bikkhunis were a line of woman monks ordained by the Buddha that died out eight centuries ago, and was recently revived in Sri Lanka.

Here, in a reversal of roles, men bow to Dhammananda, offering food in the hope of gaining merit.

It is something of a breakthrough for a Thai woman to be a religious role model and a spiritual leader.

Dhammananda said: "We never had women taking the leading role in spiritual field so we always look up to male monks as role models, but male monks cannot be role models for women, women do need women to be role models."

But Dhammananda's title is not recognised by Thailand's religious authorities - they only recognise men as monks.

Traditionally, the status of women in Thai Buddhism is lower than that of men's.

Women cannot be in physical contact with monks. When offering alms, they must the food on a cloth, and they are not allowed in certain areas of the monasteries.

Dhammananda said that led to women and girls having low self-esteem.

Dhammananda said: "Women always pray - literally pray - that in the next life I will be born a man. You can be enlightened in a woman's body."

But not everyone believes in her mission.

Thailand's religious authorities said the Bhikkuni order administered under Theravada Buddhism was over, and could never be revived.

Phra Sripariyattimoli, Buddhism Protection Office, said that to change, one needed to correct many things.

He said Theravada would become like Mahayana Buddhism and these could lead to many other changes, including monks being able to have a wife.

Critics said women who wanted to lead an ordained life should simply become nuns.

However, Dhammananda's supporters argued that by not allowing women monks, religious authorities were sending a message to girls and women that Buddhism was not relevant to them.

And they ask where does that leave Thai women?

Dhammananda said: "Why is the door for women to be ordained locked but the door for women to go into prostitution so wide open?

"If we open up the door for women to be ordained, would it help to uplift the woman's status?"

Dhammananda's goal is to create a whole new Bikkhuni lineage and a monastery unlike any other in Thailand - one where women can gather freely.

source

[Abandon]

Women cannot be in physical contact with monks. When offering alms, they must the food on a cloth, and they are not allowed in certain areas of the monasteries.

What nonesense is that? These nuns cannot have contact with men either, and also do not receive directly from men.

He said Theravada would become like Mahayana Buddhism and these could lead to many other changes, including monks being able to have a wife.

This 'open the door' or 'give an inch' arguement is always lame. So, if women ordain monks will drink whiskey, take wives ad nauseam ....

One of the shames is that although she knows her Dhamma, the only thing anyone seems to want to talk about in her various lectures (which I attended a couple) is the ordination of women. She is pretty sharp and clued up on dhamma both in theory and practise.

As far as I recall the Sangha Council only put a hold on the issue, and did not ban the ordination of women outright for the future; just put a damper on it rather than make any sudden changes. And though technically only men can be ordained, I have seen a willingness to allow these women to develop the order - afterall dressing in robes while not a male ordainee is a criminal offense but they have not been arreseted. It seems to me a good way to go about it - no sudden change, but let it evolve with time. Of course there will always be the extremists on both sides.

Got to say that despite their bad reputation in recent years, Wat Dhammakaya made some positive moves for women to be ordained. A few years ago they ordained a group of women into brown for a short period to try and open the door a bit.

[~G~]

The group is headed by Dhammananda, who was ordained two years ago by a Sri Lankan woman monk, as a "Bhikkuni" in the Theravadan tradition.

The Sri Lankan "woman monk" is not a bhikunni herself. In Sri Lanka the nuns indeed dress similarly to monks (both shoulders covered) but they are not bhikunnis. They are "dasa sila", following 10 precepts, just like samaneras.

Dhammananda said: "Women always pray - literally pray - that in the next life I will be born a man. You can be enlightened in a woman's body."

You can be enlightened as a woman, but you cannot become a Buddha.

Dhammananda said: "Why is the door for women to be ordained locked but the door for women to go into prostitution so wide open?

This is clearly a provocative statement. The sad fact that there are so many prostitutes in Thailand does not make it niether legal nor respectable.

Dhammananda's goal is to create a whole new Bikkhuni lineage and a monastery unlike any other in Thailand - one where women can gather freely.

And what recognition will she get? Not by any serious theravada tradition. If she so desires, she can follow all the monks rules, but not be called a bhikunni. Why engage in politics as a dhamma practitioner?

Edited May 24, 2005 by ~G~

[sabaijai]

The Sri Lankan "woman monk" is not a bhikunni herself. In Sri Lanka the nuns indeed dress similarly to monks (both shoulders covered) but they are not bhikunnis. They are "dasa sila", following 10 precepts, just like samaneras.

My understanding is that the tradition has been revived in Sri Lanka via ordination from Mahayana Buddhist nuns, so that there are now fully ordained nuns in Sri Lanka.

The term "woman monk" is of course awkward. Most English dictionaries define monk as a male monastic and nun as a female monastic. The distinction falls between fully ordained nuns following the original 311 precepts and the 8-precept (in Thailand) or 10-precept (in Sri Lanka and Myanmar) 'Samaneri nuns'. Sometimes the term 'lay nun' is used for the 8-precept nuns or mae chee in Thailand.

Here's some relevant info on the revived tradition in Sri Lanka:

For the first time since the disappearance, the Bhikkhuni Order was restored at Saranath India on 8.12.96. The Sinhalese Nuns who received their Bhikkhuni Ordination there came back to Sri Lanka after one year and two months at the invitation of the Bhikkhuni Sasanodaya Society, Dambulla. On Medin Poya Day (12/3/98) they ordained 23 selected Sinhalese DSM Nuns into the Bhikkhuni Sangha.

This ordination was confirmed and ratified by a quorum of the Theravada Sangha as required in the Vinaya. Ven. Inamaluwe was the director of the function and the master of ceremonies. He was assisted by Ven. Mapalagama Vipulasara, Galkadawela Punnasara, Pandit Tallalle Dhammananda Anu Nayakam, Ven. Prof. K. Vajira and Porwagama Soma and a few others.

Thus for the first time since the Anuradhapura days the Bhikkhuni Sasana has been revived in Sri Lanka According to full Theravada ceremonial. Sinhalese DSM nuns, Buddhist women feminists and other advocates of the restoration of the Bhikkhuni Sasana will have the satisfaction that one of their cherished dreams for the Buddha Sasana has been realised.

Sri Lanka situation

It seems to me that if the bhikkhuni order was a valid concept in the Buddha's day, it's still valid today.

[Suthep_Steve]

You can be enlightened as a woman, but you cannot become a Buddha.

From my understanding as a Theravadian you cannot but come a Buddha whether you are in a male or female form.

From a Mahayana view point you can become a Buddha if you have a male or female human body. I believe once you are a Buddha you are techinically sexless but can manifest what ever form is best suited to benefiting living beings.

In the Mahayana, Buddha Tara, sometimes known as Kwan yin attained Buddhahood in a female form and famously said before she became enligtened, "There is no man there is no woman there is no self there is no other."

[~G~]

The Sri Lankan "woman monk" is not a bhikunni herself. In Sri Lanka the nuns indeed dress similarly to monks (both shoulders covered) but they are not bhikunnis. They are "dasa sila", following 10 precepts, just like samaneras.

My understanding is that the tradition has been revived in Sri Lanka via ordination from Mahayana Buddhist nuns, so that there are now fully ordained nuns in Sri Lanka.

The term "woman monk" is of course awkward. Most English dictionaries define monk as a male monastic and nun as a female monastic. The distinction falls between fully ordained nuns following the original 311 precepts and the 8-precept (in Thailand) or 10-precept (in Sri Lanka and Myanmar) 'Samaneri nuns'. Sometimes the term 'lay nun' is used for the 8-precept nuns or mae chee in Thailand.

Here's some relevant info on the revived tradition in Sri Lanka:

For the first time since the disappearance, the Bhikkhuni Order was restored at Saranath India on 8.12.96. The Sinhalese Nuns who received their Bhikkhuni Ordination there came back to Sri Lanka after one year and two months at the invitation of the Bhikkhuni Sasanodaya Society, Dambulla. On Medin Poya Day (12/3/98) they ordained 23 selected Sinhalese DSM Nuns into the Bhikkhuni Sangha.

This ordination was confirmed and ratified by a quorum of the Theravada Sangha as required in the Vinaya. Ven. Inamaluwe was the director of the function and the master of ceremonies. He was assisted by Ven. Mapalagama Vipulasara, Galkadawela Punnasara, Pandit Tallalle Dhammananda Anu Nayakam, Ven. Prof. K. Vajira and Porwagama Soma and a few others.

Thus for the first time since the Anuradhapura days the Bhikkhuni Sasana has been revived in Sri Lanka According to full Theravada ceremonial. Sinhalese DSM nuns, Buddhist women feminists and other advocates of the restoration of the Bhikkhuni Sasana will have the satisfaction that one of their cherished dreams for the Buddha Sasana has been realised.

Sri Lanka situation

It seems to me that if the bhikkhuni order was a valid concept in the Buddha's day, it's still valid today.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Sabaijai for the information. However, the majority of ordained women in Sri Lanka are samaneri nuns. The Bhikkuni ordination is controversial:

But the high priests and many monks, who are extremely influential on this island where the majority of the population are Buddhist, are still opposed to the women.

They accept the order of Bhikkunis existed in Sri Lanka until they were wiped out during invasions from India.

But they do not accept the Bhikkuni's assertion that the lineage continued unbroken in China and could be reintroduced.

"Even when Buddha gave permission for a chapter of nuns originally, he hesitated because females are very feeble in this world and can be harassed by others," said one of their opponents, a monk called Manta Bhani whose temple is near Dambulla."

"The Bhikkuni order cannot be re-established because it was completely eradicated"

Quoted from BBC

Another point - if they were ordained by Mahayana bhikkunis, how can they be Theravada nuns? By this logic every Mahayana monk is also a Theravada monk.

[sabaijai]

Another point - if they were ordained by Mahayana bhikkunis, how can they be Theravada nuns? By this logic every Mahayana monk is also a Theravada monk.

The reasoning is that the Mahayana ordination lineage can be traced back to the Theravada lineage. I don't know the details but have read several sources that make the claim.

[Abandon]

Yes sabaijai - that's my understanding also. But more than that, the nuns should have a double ordination - one with men and the other with women. If the men are Theravada it adds to the credential.

Actually if memory serves, there was a provision made about the double ordination that if there were no nuns around the area for a period, the women could have the male only ordination. Afterall, that was how they used to get ordained - the ordination proceedure by other nuns was only added to save on the embarrassment of monks quizzing the women about their sexuality and female issues.

But it is by-the-by as the objections come not from points of technicality, but from those who oppose women entering the monkhood, as opposed to those who are for it. Both sides have made up their minds before considering the technicalities.

[sabaijai]

But it is by-the-by as the objections come not from points of technicality, but from those who oppose women entering the monkhood, as opposed to those who are for it. Both sides have made up their minds before considering the technicalities.

I think that about sums it up.

[~G~]

I agree that pure technicalities is not the real point here.

I do hope the ordained bhikkunis will be accepted by the influential monks, both in Sri Lanka and Thailand, with as little "politics" as possible in the Sangha.

[wix]

woman monk

This is an oxymoron. The editor that let this one through needs a good kick up the bottom.

Incorrect use of language is not helping the women's cause. They should use the word bhikkhuni or fully ordained nun.

[eveningfalls]

Quoted from BBC

Another point - if they were ordained by Mahayana bhikkunis, how can they be Theravada nuns? By this logic every Mahayana monk is also a Theravada monk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it is not in the spirit of buddhism to separate mahayana and theravada.