Like Them Or Hate Them, But Thai Red Shirts Do Have A Point

[Netfan]

Excellent article. The people want equality - proper and fair juctice - and a say.

Tne Red-Shirts are - as each day passes - becoming more and more empowered.

They've had enough of the current - rotten corrupt system.

This movement - I predict - will be unstoppable very soon - if not already.

Well, rather than being more empowered they seem to be just getting tired, hungry and bored. They're going home. The majority of Thais have had enough of the corrupt, rotten on-the-run leader of Reds. The "3 x the number of people of last week's march" for Saturday has already been cancelled. This movement - I predict- will be done with very soon, if not already.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Netfan

[Insight]

The red shirts done themselves a massive favour by staying peaceful, and no doubt there's been attempts to provoke them from onlookers - not all of them would of been joining in the fun.

But it seems they can't seem to get it right for a prolonged amount of time. The ASTV website is now making a right meal out of pictures of red shirts doing their candle-lit vigil the other day. An understandable lack of forethought (to us, at least) isn't going down too well at all in some circles.

[Thai at Heart]

The rules are the rules.

Abhisit is in, and he will sit there to his hearts content until he decides to change the situation.

However, if people feel there has been an injustice, it is their right to protest. I think we can all look at the last 5 years and realise that Thailand has got itself into an almighty mess. Fraud, disbanding parties, banning a whole swathe of people from politics, coups, and forming governments around civil protests with tacit support from some who shouldn't be involved. The systems were in no way organised to handle people who care about their votes or their future. It appears that both the lowest and nascent middle of society don't like the way the country has been moving. Those at the top are the ones who had better wake up.

This to me is the reality, and I do not fight for anything more than hoping that Thailand grows up politically and societally so that the country can rid itself of this scourge of military involvement in politics. That is the most constant problem in Thailand. Thailand is growing up, kicking and screaming all the way. The shake up of Thai society is upon everyone.

No one said that democracy is easy, but it is a hel_l of a lot better than any of the other options.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I'm sure the writer of this article must be fired from The Nation by now.

Words of wisdom from..................Nation,keep this up and I might start reading it again!

Yes. Amazing.

[hammered]

Elections, coups, disbandments none of them lead to any change. Whatever happens the power groups will still be there. They lead the reds and the yellows and every party. All this is not going to change anything

[Thai at Heart]

Elections, coups, disbandments none of them lead to any change. Whatever happens the power groups will still be there. They lead the reds and the yellows and every party. All this is not going to change anything

Oh I don't get quite so disheartened about the whole thing. Abhisit knows what he is trying to do, but he has a long way to go. Thaksin will be consigned to history in time, but he did leave a legacy of creating activism in the country, thanks in no part to Sondhi.

Change will come to the top particularly, after all, nothing lasts forever. I think what we are seeing at the moment is the start of possibly some momentous things in Thailand. Who knows, even something close to real democracy might emerge from the rubble.

What comes in the future will represent real democracy far more than previous poor imitations. People within Thailand and outside were so proud to tout Thailand as a democracy. It walked like a democracy, it talked like a democracy, it whispered sweet nothings in your ears. But when the makeup was off and you lifted it's skirt, you were in for a nasty shock when you saw it for what, democracy, Thai style, really was.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[scorecard]

The rules are the rules.

Abhisit is in, and he will sit there to his hearts content until he decides to change the situation.

However, if people feel there has been an injustice, it is their right to protest. I think we can all look at the last 5 years and realise that Thailand has got itself into an almighty mess. Fraud, disbanding parties, banning a whole swathe of people from politics, coups, and forming governments around civil protests with tacit support from some who shouldn't be involved. The systems were in no way organised to handle people who care about their votes or their future. It appears that both the lowest and nascent middle of society don't like the way the country has been moving. Those at the top are the ones who had better wake up.

This to me is the reality, and I do not fight for anything more than hoping that Thailand grows up politically and societally so that the country can rid itself of this scourge of military involvement in politics. That is the most constant problem in Thailand. Thailand is growing up, kicking and screaming all the way. The shake up of Thai society is upon everyone.

No one said that democracy is easy, but it is a hel_l of a lot better than any of the other options.

The 'system', as you call it, has many facets.

One of the biggest facets, for many decades, has been (and to a major extent still is), the ruthless incapable insincere politicians (read thugs and leeches) who have make up the political parties and manipulated (bought) the voters, and many of these 'politicians' are up-country wanna be's who now own massive houses, lots of expensive cars, etc., etc., all through massive and often open corruption.

And if we really lay all the cards on the table, the truth is also that many voters (city and rural) simply allowed themselves to be bought and manipulated, in same cases because they didn't understand the process, and in some cases from laziness, and in many cases because the person who had painted themselves as the 'saviour' (read ruthless manipulator with no morals) always came along just at the right time with a bag or rice.

In essence the 'system' was probably OK, but was destroyed by the ruthless and greedy.

You say "It appears that both the lowest and nascent middle of society don't like the way the country has been moving. Those at the top are the ones who had better wake up."

You mention that the 'lowest' (as you call them), and you mention 'those at the top'.

Your 'those at the top' are in fact many different groups, and I'll say again a sizeable percentage are highly corrupt rural people ('politicians') from the villages where most of the 'lowest' come from. And I think many people are underestimating how ruthless these 'politicians' will be if somebody really tries to disrupt their access to the feeding trough.

There are in fact many 'rich' people who also see the need for urgent change. This sector has other complications, many of these people are capable and sincere, and can readily see the vast inequalities across society, want to contribute / want to generate reform and see a better quality of life and better opportunity for all Thais, but won't join the current political parties because they don't want to be associated with what amounts to old boys corruption gangs.

You also mention "so that the country can rid itself of this scourge of military involvement in politics. That is the most constant problem in Thailand. "

Well point one is that this is Thailand and it has it's own flavor and configuration of what politics looks like, smells like, and feels like. And please remember this is true of all countries; it's a different model, country by country.

Point two is that democracy in Thailand has made very little progress towards maturity since 1932 and all of that time has been hijacked by mostly incapable leeches. The military has played two roles, changing their hat from time to time as different people occupied the top seats in the military. At times the military has tried to play dictator, and at times the military has played watchdog on behalf of all Thais and removed highly corrupt governments.

You might like to remember that when the bloodless and totally non-violent coup happened in 2006, many members of the public appeared on the streets and gave the soldiers flowers, water, and food.

In the Thai context this is very meangingfull and was basically saying 'thank you'.

I dread to think what Thailand would be like today if thaksin had not been removed. More Thais gunned down in assassinations with no recourse whatever to justice, freedom of speech curtailed even more, more statements about 'democracy is not my aim' / 'democracy is not important', etc. Even more massive corruption, more open nepotism, the paymasters family occupying all senior positions in the police and military (already in progress when the coup happened), electoral commission intimidated and bought, and more.

On the other hand, in a mature democracy the military should definitely confine itself to defending the nation against outside enemies. And I believe the time will come when the Thai military will move to that role.

Edited March 25, 2010 by scorecard

[321niti123]

I'm sure the writer of this article must be fired from The Nation by now.

Words of wisdom from..................Nation,keep this up and I might start reading it again!

Which just goes to show that biased journalism is usually fine by the reader as long as they happen to agree.

I think what Landofthefree wants to say is that the nation sides the government much too often and it is a nice change of pace to see both sides of the argument again. It does not mean that he sides with the article.

[321niti123]

I'm sure the writer of this article must be fired from The Nation by now.

Words of wisdom from..................Nation,keep this up and I might start reading it again!

Which just goes to show that biased journalism is usually fine by the reader as long as they happen to agree.

I think what Landofthefree wants to say is that the nation sides the government much too often and it is a nice change of pace to see both sides of the argument again. It does not mean that he sides with the article.

[rixalex]

Words of wisdom

Which just goes to show that biased journalism is usually fine by the reader as long as they happen to agree.

It does not mean that he sides with the article.

If he considers the article to be "words of wisdom", one i think could be forgiven for thinking he sides with it.

[321niti123]

I agree with this article to a certain extent, I get what the reds are trying to say and I agree with SOME of their worries, but what I dont agree with is asking a legally placed government to resign, I do not a agree with wasting blood, and I wish they would just change leaders in this so-called 'class war' when their leader is part of the society that they are going up against.

By saying leaders i mean both thaksin and the leaders who are leading the protest in bangkok right now.

[somtampet]

I wish citizen like the shop keepers can sue these leaders for punitive damages and loss of income, every time they business suffers because of so called their act for democracy.

They should also get sued for using what little air there is in Bangkok.Not big or clever stealing oxygen

[hammered]

Im just waiting for the reds to denounbce Thaksin and abandon him. However, Jatupornsd thing in th Nation today which was I suppose meant to show Thaksin was nothign special and wouldnt get special treatment only ended up reinforcing the view the reds are actually about Thaksin. The only reason to push for instant elections is Thaksin. The only reason to change the constitution or do an amnesty is Thaksin. I find it rather sad actually. True believers in democracy are being badly let down by the red ;leadership who between them seem to have absolutely no good qualities which is a shame cosndiering a lot of those in the movement do. Surely they can find better leaders from their grassroots than these parachuted in Thaksin yes men. When they do they will win their demands. However while they remian Thaksin focused they will only continue to be part of an insoluble problem. The soultion can only be found by excluding Thaksin. Right now this whle thing remains around him, whihc I am sure he relishes.

[landofthefree]

I'm sure the writer of this article must be fired from The Nation by now.

Words of wisdom from..................Nation,keep this up and I might start reading it again!

Which just goes to show that biased journalism is usually fine by the reader as long as they happen to agree.

I think what Landofthefree wants to say is that the nation sides the government much too often and it is a nice change of pace to see both sides of the argument again. It does not mean that he sides with the article.

321niti123 You hit the nail on the head. Thanks for putting it more eloquently that I could ever have done.

[Nuchanart]

Who is worst? The YELLOW or the RED.

This clip from the YELLOW

This clip from the RED

[way2muchcoffee]

Who is worst? The YELLOW or the RED.

Really? Shall we now trot out the youtube clips of yellows hanging about peacefully paired with a clip of the reds burning buses and attempting to blow up a gas tanker?

Come on. Stick to reasoned argument please, even if your reasoning yields different conclusions than mine. Ridiculous propaganda serves no purpose here.

Edited March 26, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[mca]

Apologies for trotting this one out again. Guess our definitions of "hanging about peacefully" must differ considerably. Come on mate. I expected better from you. I like your posts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnFPhExOTw

[LuckyFive8888]

agree, somehow they have a point but the very wrong thing is that their leader has other intention other than true democracy. he is using the poor and the like.

[way2muchcoffee]

Apologies for trotting this one out again. Guess our definitions of "hanging about peacefully" must differ considerably. Come on mate. I expected better from you. I like your posts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnFPhExOTw

Nah. I agree the airport deal was wrong and was the worst decision the PAD made. I think Sondhi should be tried, convicted, and jailed because of it. I also think it should have happened already and that the judiciary are dragging their feet. I agree the PAD acted violently at times, though some legitimate arguments can be made in their defence. I also think appointing Kasit as FM should never have happened and that this is a glaring black spot on Abhisit's record.

I was only objecting to the post with the two youtube clips. Anyone can cherry pick peaceful clips of one group and compare them with violent clips from another. I find that disingenuous. There are no real innocents here.

Edited March 26, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[mca]

All good mate.

[SomTumTiger]

Yellow red - the are all idiots. Just like any farangs on TV how support them.

[RickBradford]

Self, to Thai friend, Yellow Shirt supporter: "Do you believe in democracy?"

Tf, YSs: "Oh, yes!"

Self: Do you understand, if Thailand has one-person one-vote democracy, your side will lose?"

(Silence.)

I think political consciousness in this country is at a low level, hence all the futile strife.

[anotherpeter]

Self, to Thai friend, Yellow Shirt supporter: "Do you believe in democracy?"

Tf, YSs: "Oh, yes!"

Self: Do you understand, if Thailand has one-person one-vote democracy, your side will lose?"

(Silence.)

I think political consciousness in this country is at a low level, hence all the futile strife.

I agree. If you said the same thing to a red supporter you would get the same silence.

There should be a subject that all Thais must study in high school about democracy.

[Cayenne]

To the reds, Thaksin = democracy. Talking to them gives you the impression that they think Thaksin even invented democracy, that democracy did not existed before his administration.

[junkofdavid2]

the airport deal was wrong and was the worst decision the PAD made. I think Sondhi should be tried, convicted, and jailed

They should just do it the "convenient" Thai way, and blame it on those strange looking farang weirdos at the PAD airport siege. Everyone (or every thai) gets off free.

[overhaul38]

At least one wise man in The Nation!

The fact is that Thaksin was fabulously wealthy when he became PM and was not controlled by the power base in Thai government. He was hated by the rich and very high politicos as uncontrolled and could not be replaced at the ballot box hence the plan/plot to remove him via coup. Thaksin was instrumental and the driving force in the subway, skyway, 30 baht medical care for the poor and completion of the airport and to say he is the only/most corrupt politician and a devil is to say the Thai people don't eat rice. The ruling power base got rid of him and Thai politics and government returned to its normal mode. After opening Pandora's box with the hands off approach to the yellow shirt program of regime change the government cannot figure how to deal with the red shirts. Jail the leaders; shoot a few; hope they get tired and go back to their farms? This could go on for a few years.

[blaze]

Articles like this- but far more incisive and insightful are not new in the Nation- as anyone who follows Chang Noi's columns knows. But I do sense a slight shift of tone in the Nation- "Something's happening mister Jones- and you don't know what it is"- True= but finally the Nation seems to be making a bit more of a sincere attempt to understand just what is happening.

What is truly noteworthy is that it showed up on thaivisa. Now if this forum would print articles referring to the amount of pay soldiers in Bkk are getting for policing a peaceful situation versus what those in the south, who risk their lives every day are earning-- or the articles announcing the latest payments to the military by the gov't- my faith in this forum will be restored.

[Rinrada]

Yellow red - the are all idiots. Just like any farangs on TV how support them.

assume you mean WHO...MPR....

Anyway nicely well thought out constructed opinion..init...Atilla and Ghengis rules...dear dear..

[blaze]

The rules are the rules.

Abhisit is in, and he will sit there to his hearts content until he decides to change the situation.

However, if people feel there has been an injustice, it is their right to protest. I think we can all look at the last 5 years and realise that Thailand has got itself into an almighty mess. Fraud, disbanding parties, banning a whole swathe of people from politics, coups, and forming governments around civil protests with tacit support from some who shouldn't be involved. The systems were in no way organised to handle people who care about their votes or their future. It appears that both the lowest and nascent middle of society don't like the way the country has been moving. Those at the top are the ones who had better wake up.

This to me is the reality, and I do not fight for anything more than hoping that Thailand grows up politically and societally so that the country can rid itself of this scourge of military involvement in politics. That is the most constant problem in Thailand. Thailand is growing up, kicking and screaming all the way. The shake up of Thai society is upon everyone.

No one said that democracy is easy, but it is a hel_l of a lot better than any of the other options.

The 'system', as you call it, has many facets.

One of the biggest facets, for many decades, has been (and to a major extent still is), the ruthless incapable insincere politicians (read thugs and leeches) who have make up the political parties and manipulated (bought) the voters, and many of these 'politicians' are up-country wanna be's who now own massive houses, lots of expensive cars, etc., etc., all through massive and often open corruption.

And if we really lay all the cards on the table, the truth is also that many voters (city and rural) simply allowed themselves to be bought and manipulated, in same cases because they didn't understand the process, and in some cases from laziness, and in many cases because the person who had painted themselves as the 'saviour' (read ruthless manipulator with no morals) always came along just at the right time with a bag or rice.

In essence the 'system' was probably OK, but was destroyed by the ruthless and greedy.

You say "It appears that both the lowest and nascent middle of society don't like the way the country has been moving. Those at the top are the ones who had better wake up."

You mention that the 'lowest' (as you call them), and you mention 'those at the top'.

Your 'those at the top' are in fact many different groups, and I'll say again a sizeable percentage are highly corrupt rural people ('politicians') from the villages where most of the 'lowest' come from. And I think many people are underestimating how ruthless these 'politicians' will be if somebody really tries to disrupt their access to the feeding trough.

There are in fact many 'rich' people who also see the need for urgent change. This sector has other complications, many of these people are capable and sincere, and can readily see the vast inequalities across society, want to contribute / want to generate reform and see a better quality of life and better opportunity for all Thais, but won't join the current political parties because they don't want to be associated with what amounts to old boys corruption gangs.

You also mention "so that the country can rid itself of this scourge of military involvement in politics. That is the most constant problem in Thailand. "

Well point one is that this is Thailand and it has it's own flavor and configuration of what politics looks like, smells like, and feels like. And please remember this is true of all countries; it's a different model, country by country.

Point two is that democracy in Thailand has made very little progress towards maturity since 1932 and all of that time has been hijacked by mostly incapable leeches. The military has played two roles, changing their hat from time to time as different people occupied the top seats in the military. At times the military has tried to play dictator, and at times the military has played watchdog on behalf of all Thais and removed highly corrupt governments.

You might like to remember that when the bloodless and totally non-violent coup happened in 2006, many members of the public appeared on the streets and gave the soldiers flowers, water, and food.

In the Thai context this is very meangingfull and was basically saying 'thank you'.

I dread to think what Thailand would be like today if thaksin had not been removed. More Thais gunned down in assassinations with no recourse whatever to justice, freedom of speech curtailed even more, more statements about 'democracy is not my aim' / 'democracy is not important', etc. Even more massive corruption, more open nepotism, the paymasters family occupying all senior positions in the police and military (already in progress when the coup happened), electoral commission intimidated and bought, and more.

On the other hand, in a mature democracy the military should definitely confine itself to defending the nation against outside enemies. And I believe the time will come when the Thai military will move to that role.

Some of what you say, I agree with- but in your analysis of why the Thais have permitted themselves to be trod upon, manipulated and exploited, you forgot a very important factor: namely a culture that emphasizes obedience to ones superiors. It is this very culture that the redshirts are putting up to question.

They may, many of the leaders, think that they can merely shift the allegiance of the masses- from the entrenched aristocracy/beaurocracy to the local red shirt politicos- but they will, if history is anything to go by, face a real conundrum: once the people have challenged the some of the most powerful institutions in the land, and learned that through united action and an exercising of their new found 'rights', they have the power to do so- it's not much to expect them to challenge the local pu-yai and mps. This may be about nothing more than instilling a sense of empowerment- and that can't be bad. Before any democracy can operate, first the populace has to understand to whom it is obligated. And ulitmately free men are obligated only to themselves- enlightened self interest.

[mca]

On the other hand, in a mature democracy the military should definitely confine itself to defending the nation against outside enemies. And I believe the time will come when the Thai military will move to that role.

There's a massive cast in stone mindset that has to be changed for that to happen.

IMHO opinion the upper echelons army are like my dear old nan. Her unchangeable opinion is that she can't possibly be wrong in any situation and contemptuous of the fact that anybody else might be as knowledgeable as herself or have a valid opinion about what constitutes the best thing to do.

She still says about my mum "What does the girl know?"

My mum is 63 and a retired partner in my father's business.