Watch Out For Kiwi Journos

[Moonrakers]

I see the silver foil hat brigade are out in full.

<Post snipped, it's a pointless argument>

[noahvail]

Maybe I missed it in these 3 pages: brothels are legal in NZ. Have been for a few years now. Maybe she's going to do a compare and contrast segment.

There's even an Olympic 2012 hopeful who started one to fund his training:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/oly...icle6691745.ece

[carmine]

Maybe I missed it in these 3 pages: brothels are legal in NZ. Have been for a few years now. Maybe she's going to do a compare and contrast segment.

There's even an Olympic 2012 hopeful who started one to fund his training:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/oly...icle6691745.ece

Good for him

[smokie36]

It is fully known what the bar fine is for. It is permission from the bar owner to take the girl out for sex.

No, it is a payment to the club fore removing one of their dancers from the establishment. Ofcourse they know what you in many cases might end up doing, but that is outside the scope of the venue.

If they really wanted to go undercover, visit the soapy massage places where the price-lists are upfront and everything is happening within the establishment. Now They are clearly in breach of the law. Go go's and beer bars in most cases are not.

My Thai GF wanted to take me for a cheap massage and so we travelled halfway across Bangkok in order to save a couple of hundred baht. When we walked inside there was a bar, half a dozen Thai blokes scattered around a few tables and some Thai women behind a one way screen doing their knitting. That's the reality of prostitution in Thailand folks.

I bet the TV crew don't film that place!

Edited March 26, 2010 by smokie36

[thepanicandthevomit]

The verbal contract you enter with the girl is outside the bars control and does not concern them.

What is the purpose of a bar fine?

They will tell you that it is to compensate the bar for removing a working employee from the establishment.

Nothing to do with encouraging sex nor prostitution, no siirreee, nothing to do with that at all.

Legally it is as your first sentence say. What you and the girl do after that is up to you.

Actually, I know of many cases where guys/men have bar fined the girls and not gone and engaged in any sexual activity afterward.

Yup, I have - the one and only time I've ever BFed a girl, in fact.

And for the puritans and moral guardians amongst us - SHOCK, HORROR!! - Thai girls BF Thai men as well! There are so many here who have no real understanding of the issues at all. Their sappy sentimentality causes poor people REAL problems - but their consciences are clear, which is the main thing...

[britmaveric]

I think if it was honest journalism she would not have to do undercover piece. It's obviously going to be a hatchet piece with little understanding where the real issues reside. Of course revealing the dark side of thai on thai prostitution has little interest and prob end up getting her killed. So she will do the usual stereotypical underage/pedo story whether its true/not or some story on western lads turning paradise into hel_l for ladies who are sold into slavery. Anyways just hope she doesnt get caught filming in a gogo - I am quite sure she will end up buying a new camera with no footage.

[JonnyF]

I see the silver foil hat brigade are out in full.

<Post snipped, it's a pointless argument>

So if someone followed you and your family around all day recording every move with a camcorder, at the end of the day you'd tell them that it didn't bother you because you didn't do anything wrong. But if you objected, we can assume you were ashamed of your actions that day?

Just because you don't value your own privacy, doesn't mean everyone else has to surrender theirs.

[Moonrakers]

I see the silver foil hat brigade are out in full.

<Post snipped, it's a pointless argument>

So if someone followed you and your family around all day recording every move with a camcorder, at the end of the day you'd tell them that it didn't bother you because you didn't do anything wrong. But if you objected, we can assume you were ashamed of your actions that day?

Just because you don't value your own privacy, doesn't mean everyone else has to surrender theirs.

If somebody was following me around with a camera then I'd likely poke them in the eye and tell them to do one.

But it isn't about that is it? It is about some people doing a documentary about something so stop twisting it into something that it isn't just to labour you point.

[mark45y]

I can't really see the issue with this topic. In our home countries we have exactly the same investigations going on by the press and others, delving into anything and everything to sell a newspaper or make tele program. No big deal.

This is not your home country. This is Thailand. News stories that paint Thailand in a poor light are illegal. Censorship is legal here. It is illegal to say bad things about some people here. The test is not truth but harm.

At least I think that’s how it works.

In my opinion the posters who are against the Kiwi lady portraying Thailand and it’s tourists in a bad light are simply demonstrating their Thai ness. The fellows are actually very culturally acclimated to Thailand.

Anyone who knows anything about Thailand knows about the love hotels with the curtains pulled around the parked cars. That’s key to understanding Thai culture. It is OK as long as it’s not seen. The more culturally aware one becomes one realizes the nuances of Thai culture and tradition.

Those who rail against certain long standing traditions in Thailand are only demonstrating their ethnocentricity and lack of understanding of Thai culture.

I can understand the cultural insensitivity of those posters who don’t live in Thailand. But for those of us who do live here it behooves us to understand and accept Thai culture.

Changing cultural traditions are best accomplished from the inside if that is the will of the people.

[JonnyF]

I see the silver foil hat brigade are out in full.

<Post snipped, it's a pointless argument>

So if someone followed you and your family around all day recording every move with a camcorder, at the end of the day you'd tell them that it didn't bother you because you didn't do anything wrong. But if you objected, we can assume you were ashamed of your actions that day?

Just because you don't value your own privacy, doesn't mean everyone else has to surrender theirs.

If somebody was following me around with a camera then I'd likely poke them in the eye and tell them to do one.

But it isn't about that is it? It is about some people doing a documentary about something so stop twisting it into something that it isn't just to labour you point.

I'm not twisting anything. The issue is privacy. You think it's fine to follow someone else around with a camera and broadcast it to millions of people for a documentary for you to watch, but if they follow you around with a camera you'll poke them in the eye and tell them to "do one"? Or have I misunderstood your point?

[smokie36]

I can't really see the issue with this topic. In our home countries we have exactly the same investigations going on by the press and others, delving into anything and everything to sell a newspaper or make tele program. No big deal.

This is not your home country. This is Thailand. News stories that paint Thailand in a poor light are illegal. Censorship is legal here. It is illegal to say bad things about some people here. The test is not truth but harm.

At least I think that's how it works.

In my opinion the posters who are against the Kiwi lady portraying Thailand and it's tourists in a bad light are simply demonstrating their Thai ness. The fellows are actually very culturally acclimated to Thailand.

Anyone who knows anything about Thailand knows about the love hotels with the curtains pulled around the parked cars. That's key to understanding Thai culture. It is OK as long as it's not seen. The more culturally aware one becomes one realizes the nuances of Thai culture and tradition.

Those who rail against certain long standing traditions in Thailand are only demonstrating their ethnocentricity and lack of understanding of Thai culture.

I can understand the cultural insensitivity of those posters who don't live in Thailand. But for those of us who do live here it behooves us to understand and accept Thai culture.

Changing cultural traditions are best accomplished from the inside if that is the will of the people.

I understand your argument but I feel this 'culture' has the ability to hide aspects of life wiich would be better exposed.

[powderpuff]

I would much prefer a documentary on topless beaches. of course the photogs might get the crap beat out of them. Some Nome Nah.

[thepanicandthevomit]

I can't really see the issue with this topic. In our home countries we have exactly the same investigations going on by the press and others, delving into anything and everything to sell a newspaper or make tele program. No big deal.

This is not your home country. This is Thailand. News stories that paint Thailand in a poor light are illegal. Censorship is legal here. It is illegal to say bad things about some people here. The test is not truth but harm.

At least I think that's how it works.

In my opinion the posters who are against the Kiwi lady portraying Thailand and it's tourists in a bad light are simply demonstrating their Thai ness. The fellows are actually very culturally acclimated to Thailand.

Anyone who knows anything about Thailand knows about the love hotels with the curtains pulled around the parked cars. That's key to understanding Thai culture. It is OK as long as it's not seen. The more culturally aware one becomes one realizes the nuances of Thai culture and tradition.

Those who rail against certain long standing traditions in Thailand are only demonstrating their ethnocentricity and lack of understanding of Thai culture.

I can understand the cultural insensitivity of those posters who don't live in Thailand. But for those of us who do live here it behooves us to understand and accept Thai culture.

Changing cultural traditions are best accomplished from the inside if that is the will of the people.

Very true. It's always a mistake to try to impose beliefs on people.

[smokie36]

I can't really see the issue with this topic. In our home countries we have exactly the same investigations going on by the press and others, delving into anything and everything to sell a newspaper or make tele program. No big deal.

This is not your home country. This is Thailand. News stories that paint Thailand in a poor light are illegal. Censorship is legal here. It is illegal to say bad things about some people here. The test is not truth but harm.

At least I think that's how it works.

In my opinion the posters who are against the Kiwi lady portraying Thailand and it's tourists in a bad light are simply demonstrating their Thai ness. The fellows are actually very culturally acclimated to Thailand.

Anyone who knows anything about Thailand knows about the love hotels with the curtains pulled around the parked cars. That's key to understanding Thai culture. It is OK as long as it's not seen. The more culturally aware one becomes one realizes the nuances of Thai culture and tradition.

Those who rail against certain long standing traditions in Thailand are only demonstrating their ethnocentricity and lack of understanding of Thai culture.

I can understand the cultural insensitivity of those posters who don't live in Thailand. But for those of us who do live here it behooves us to understand and accept Thai culture.

Changing cultural traditions are best accomplished from the inside if that is the will of the people.

Very true. It's always a mistake to try to impose beliefs on people.

Yes hide behind the cloud of cultural (in)difference....regardless of the rights or wrongs.

[bangon04]

I have no problem with investigative journalists doing stories on their fellow nationals in another country. This is very normal in journalism. What I do have a problem with is the expectation that this will be yet another easy misleading story by a foreign news crew which will always run well back home.

I say misleading as I am yet to see any western news report do a more comprehensive analysis of the whole sex industry in Thailand by focusing on the 90% of the industry which serves Thais and then examining the industry in a larger social-economic, cultural and historical context. Or even looking at the amount of trafficked women into thailand from Burma, Laos, Cambodia etc who serve Thais.

Even the Japanese would be a larger percentage of the industry than nearly all westerners combined but we never see stories focusing on the Japanese segement of the industry by the mainstream press.

And anyone suggesting that those working in the industry dont suffer harm is just being delusional, should do a reality check and do a bit of reading. That does not suggest that all who work in the farang part of the industry don't have some choice but harm is done for all sex workers in one way or another and those partaking should be man enough to acknowledge such a fact.

If this reporter and her team were to be directed towards the Thai 90 per cent of the sex industry where it is probably more likely that women / girls are exploited against their will, they might well end up eating their hidden cameras and tape recorders and becoming a headline themselves.....

[mark45y]

I can't really see the issue with this topic. In our home countries we have exactly the same investigations going on by the press and others, delving into anything and everything to sell a newspaper or make tele program. No big deal.

This is not your home country. This is Thailand. News stories that paint Thailand in a poor light are illegal. Censorship is legal here. It is illegal to say bad things about some people here. The test is not truth but harm.

At least I think that's how it works.

In my opinion the posters who are against the Kiwi lady portraying Thailand and it's tourists in a bad light are simply demonstrating their Thai ness. The fellows are actually very culturally acclimated to Thailand.

Anyone who knows anything about Thailand knows about the love hotels with the curtains pulled around the parked cars. That's key to understanding Thai culture. It is OK as long as it's not seen. The more culturally aware one becomes one realizes the nuances of Thai culture and tradition.

Those who rail against certain long standing traditions in Thailand are only demonstrating their ethnocentricity and lack of understanding of Thai culture.

I can understand the cultural insensitivity of those posters who don't live in Thailand. But for those of us who do live here it behooves us to understand and accept Thai culture.

Changing cultural traditions are best accomplished from the inside if that is the will of the people.

I understand your argument but I feel this 'culture' has the ability to hide aspects of life wiich would be better exposed.

Better exposed for who? Thai hi so people own them and Thai low so work in them. Thai middle class supply the food and drink and build them. So that covers most of Thai society. Thai people don’t want them exposed. Who wants them exposed?

[mark45y]

I can't really see the issue with this topic. In our home countries we have exactly the same investigations going on by the press and others, delving into anything and everything to sell a newspaper or make tele program. No big deal.

This is not your home country. This is Thailand. News stories that paint Thailand in a poor light are illegal. Censorship is legal here. It is illegal to say bad things about some people here. The test is not truth but harm.

At least I think that's how it works.

In my opinion the posters who are against the Kiwi lady portraying Thailand and it's tourists in a bad light are simply demonstrating their Thai ness. The fellows are actually very culturally acclimated to Thailand.

Anyone who knows anything about Thailand knows about the love hotels with the curtains pulled around the parked cars. That's key to understanding Thai culture. It is OK as long as it's not seen. The more culturally aware one becomes one realizes the nuances of Thai culture and tradition.

Those who rail against certain long standing traditions in Thailand are only demonstrating their ethnocentricity and lack of understanding of Thai culture.

I can understand the cultural insensitivity of those posters who don't live in Thailand. But for those of us who do live here it behooves us to understand and accept Thai culture.

Changing cultural traditions are best accomplished from the inside if that is the will of the people.

Very true. It's always a mistake to try to impose beliefs on people.

Yes hide behind the cloud of cultural (in)difference....regardless of the rights or wrongs.

In the 1930’s Thai women were topless. They didn’t wear shirts. The Thai prime minister in 1937 by proclamation ruled that all Thai women must wear shirts. Personally I think this was a bad decision. Even if it was motivated by good intentions. Given the temperature and shape of things it makes little sense for Thai women to wear shirts. A trip to Pattaya can easily verify this.

Thai people are very easily swayed and have had enough dictators telling them what to do and how to dress and what to eat and drink over the years.

They don’t need foreigners coming here to try and enforce more restrictions on an already overburdened people.

There are few universal rights and wrongs. I would suggest you keep your definition of right and wrong to yourself. I for one don’t care about your definition of right and wrong and I am a pretty liberal guy. Think of how little Thai’s care about your definition of right and wrong.

Instead of bemoaning the fact that Thailand is not like the country of your birth, try absorbing the Thai traditions into your value system.

[hammered]

I think these expose documentaries are a good thing. Nothign wrong with investigative journalism and if you aint doing anything wrong, or aint doing anything you'd be ashamed to be seen doing, nothing to be worried about.

[carmine]

Whilst she's a real honey i think it would be far more constrctive if say she were to use her journalistic talents to find out how the earthquake victims in Haiti. A prim example of unecessary garbage journalism

[Donnyboy]

Whilst she's a real honey i think it would be far more constrctive if say she were to use her journalistic talents to find out how the earthquake victims in Haiti. A prim example of unecessary garbage journalism

but on the flip side, the jornos wouldnt cover the story if they knew their were no ratings potential in it, nothing sells like sex can

My guess would be that the Haitian Earthquake, however tragic, has been covered by the News, and that viewers may already have had an overload of the crisis there

[Boo]

A drivel post removed & the reply to it also. If it was your post removed, now you know why

[StreetCowboy]

She's obviously just a fat cow who could never have an honest relationship with a man (or woman if she's gay)

SO just cause she is, according to you, a "fat cow" she is unable to have an honest relationship? Quite a leap of judgment there Ian considering you get so upset when people judge you & your choice of lifestyle. I'd say that for those of you who frequent the bar scene & have no problem doing so, then her report nor her investigation shouldn't cause you any concern.

Oh & a quick scan of the forum rules might be in order for anyone else thinking of posting similar.

Oh, Ian, you need to be more careful. Please post a "SARCASM ALERT" on such posts.

You should know by now that people reading this forum can't assume, just because a post sounds ridiculous, that it is not meant seriously.

So many of the postings on this forum (the above included) read like the bigotted ravings of a half-wit imbecile - and flatter the poster, at that.

To be fair, I dismissed your posts as just that, and it was only seeing your name in Boo's post that made me go back and check the authorship.

Anyway, I thought your post too credible to be funny (too credible that someone could post such in seriousness). Although I am appalled by such documentaries as much as the next man - certainly, in the places I go most men would be appalled by such documentaries, the fact is that prurient exposes of sordid goings-on incite vicarious thrills in the overseas viewers, which come out in the form of "those lucky bastards should be castrated, and if I can't go, the bars should all be closed and the girls forced to work in saltmines or shoe factories" or similar. Sadly, if it was presented as a holiday show, it would engender no end of ire. Luckily, NZ is a small country, and far away...

SC

[chokrai]

Maybe she could go undercover into Lolitas, work there for a few weeks and get the real story.

[StreetCowboy]

Maybe she could go undercover into Lolitas, work there for a few weeks and get the real story.

That was unpleasant and uncalled for.

What have we done to deserve that?

SC

[thaibeachlovers]

I think that a lot of people don't realise that prostitution is actually illegal here.

am sure you are right.Thats my point really,that it is endemic throughout thai society in one way or another and the fact that it is illegal by law is plain silly.These foreign TV crews are sent out of boredom and to raise their ratings,they know their viewers will love it,they sit back and tut tut at how decadent other countries are compared to their own and it will make them feel good and they can forget about all the incestuous relationships and pedophiles lurking in every suburb.

I agree with Boo, above, if you frequent such places you cannot reasonably expect a right to privacy unless your in one of the club/resort style establishments.

I have no problem with investigative journalists doing stories on their fellow nationals in another country. This is very normal in journalism. What I do have a problem with is the expectation that this will be yet another easy misleading story by a foreign news crew which will always run well back home.

I say misleading as I am yet to see any western news report do a more comprehensive analysis of the whole sex industry in Thailand by focusing on the 90% of the industry which serves Thais and then examining the industry in a larger social-economic, cultural and historical context. Or even looking at the amount of trafficked women into thailand from Burma, Laos, Cambodia etc who serve Thais.

Even the Japanese would be a larger percentage of the industry than nearly all westerners combined but we never see stories focusing on the Japanese segement of the industry by the mainstream press.

And anyone suggesting that those working in the industry dont suffer harm is just being delusional, should do a reality check and do a bit of reading. That does not suggest that all who work in the farang part of the industry don't have some choice but harm is done for all sex workers in one way or another and those partaking should be man enough to acknowledge such a fact.

Agreed with your take on the "story". Creative editing is everything!

However, if she wants to "help" the girls/ boys working in the sex industry, perhaps she could set up a charity to find them jobs in other employment. That said, she does not come to help, just titillate her audience in NZ ( as well as making a bundle, having a "free" trip to an exotic foriegn country, and don't tell me she won't be doing a lot of shopping ).

Incidentally, as prostitution is LEGAL in NZ, it'd be interesting to know what angle she takes. I wonder why she doesn't do an 'expose' on the customers to NZ brothels? It'd be lots cheaper, and she could ruin lots of lives too!

While SOME sex workers are "damaged" by the occupation, it does not follow that all are, unless being bored for long periods of time is harmful. I'm sure most of the bargirls/ boys in Pattaya don't actually get to "sleep" more often with customers than many single people "back home" get to "sleep" with casual aquaintances they meet in pubs. However, no one is claiming that "sleeping around" is harmful to one's mental health and going to other countries to do 'exposes'. Indeed, the most common media attitude to casual sex, is that it's fun. eg James Bond "sleeps" with as many women as they can fit into the movie.

While I'm sure there is a lot of literature on the consequences of working in the bar scene, is there any on the result of trying to support your family on what you earn as a manual laborer in Thailand, which is what most of the bar girls/ boys would have to become if there was no bar scene, given their lack of education etc?

I take the view point that many occupations are damaging, physically and mentally. Mine was certainly mentally damaging, yet I did it for 28 years, as it paid the bills and gave me enough 'spare" cash to visit LOS twice a year. Don't say that I should have changed occupations, as 'enjoyable' jobs don't pay enough to support my lifestyle.

Finally, I'd have more respect for her if she came to 'expose' the appalling conditions under which many workers ( not in the bars ) in Thailand suffer.

[elkangorito]

To all of you who are worried/troubled about this, there is a simple test you can do. Ask the 'suspected' kiwi reporter one question. The question is as follows:

Q: What do you do about sex in NZ?

A: About six, we watch the news.

If they answer the above question as per the indicated answer, avoid them.

Caviat: only Australians, NZers & very few other folk will understand this.

Edited March 27, 2010 by elkangorito

[smokie36]

To all of you who are worried/troubled about this, there is a simple test you can do. Ask the 'suspected' kiwi reporter one question. The question is as follows:

Q: What do you do about sex in NZ?

A: About six, we watch the news.

If they answer the above question as per the indicated answer, avoid them.

Caviat: only Australians, NZers & very few other folk will understand this.

We would say the same about the Swedish but they're at it 24/7

[elkangorito]

Are you talking about news or sex?

[smokie36]

Are you talking about news or sex?

Just switch off the volume mate.

[elkangorito]

That means sex....you dirty devil you