Condo Committees And Management

[ripley]

Current law states that a committee must be no fewer than 3 people and no more than 9. Those serving carry a long list of responsibilities: no less than the well-being and continued property value of the condominium.

Frequently an indifferent population neither knows nor cares who is on the committee or what they do. This allows for many blatant or covert abuses of power. These include, among many others, illegal diversion of funds, inferior maintenance, draconian rules - the bottom line being plummeting property values and increased expenses. In these buildings one hears occasional grumbles, but in the main it is "Mai Pen Rai" and "What can WE do about it?" amongst the owners.

Having experienced the latter, I'm currently observing an evolving condo governance wherein the committee and manager inform and include all condo owners regarding their own rights, interests and safety. The business office and committee have an "open door" policy, AGMs are organized regularly, owners are consulted and informed about improvements and repairs to the property, independent audits are performed annually and budgets/balance sheets posted monthly. Imperfect, but intent is easily perceptible. Yet the committee and management is constantly under attack - often personal - by the newly "informed" owners. Sad to say, too many of these appear only to scan the information given and read selectively according to their own biases.

I'm left wondering why any person not "on the take' would accept a post in condo governance. A pretty thankless job sez I. Somebody else once said that people get the government they deserve.

Funny old world.....

[barky]

I have often been suspicious of and unhappy with committees and juristic persons etc. In one condo block where I own a unit and rent out, I felt great satisfaction being able to get the management fired and a new management company put in place.

I as a single westener and one of only a couple in the building consisting of almost all Thai, I put a flyer (written in Thai) into all the mail boxes setting out all of the problems I/we were having and asked all owners to think long and hard about ousting the management at the next GM. I didn't go to the meeting because I didn't want to let anyone think that I (the farang) was behind to coup. Hey presto two weeks later the management company was changed. I was more than happy with my achievement.

And furthermore in the condo block where I also own a unit and live in through similar clandestine machinations I have been able to get security cameras and a security buzzer on the main enterance.

Instinctively I know that if the management, Juristic person , committee member or co-owner (all Thai) knew it was I who was behind the push to remedy my dis-satisfaction with the management of the place they would instantly ignore me, and nothing would ever be fixed or changed for the better (for all) and I, along with all the other co-owners would continue to be treated poorly and cheated.

[ripley]

Wish I knew how you managed to keep your involvement a secret. How, for instance, did you get the flyers into the mailboxes?? These techniques you used could be useful - share them?

Meanwhile, re: my note: Consider the notion of a salary or other compensation to owners who serve on the committee. Something that would cause an honest ;person to take on the hassle. Whaddya think?

[Tejas]

Wish I knew how you managed to keep your involvement a secret. How, for instance, did you get the flyers into the mailboxes?? These techniques you used could be useful - share them?

Meanwhile, re: my note: Consider the notion of a salary or other compensation to owners who serve on the committee. Something that would cause an honest ;person to take on the hassle. Whaddya think?

TC on Soi 7 Jomtien.......what a mess.........seriously disturbed (farang) freaks in control of a sinking ship.

[barky]

Wish I knew how you managed to keep your involvement a secret. How, for instance, did you get the flyers into the mailboxes?? These techniques you used could be useful - share them?

Meanwhile, re: my note: Consider the notion of a salary or other compensation to owners who serve on the committee. Something that would cause an honest ;person to take on the hassle. Whaddya think?

Quite simple my dear Watson, I noted down all the problems and what it was costing us (co-owners) and asked them to vote accordingly. I got a trusted friend to translate it correctly into Thai, typed it up on yellow (so that it would stand out) A5 paper and then personally put them into every mail box by hand.

[ripley]

Okay - so no way the owners weren't aware of your activities! Sounds rather that you were very effective in awaking and inspiring them to act in their own self-interest. You went straight to the core and appealed to the pocket books. No mean feat & and therein lies an interesting story.

[FarangBuddha]

Welcome to the world of condo ownership in Thailand (and most other countries).

For all the reasons you mention, I would never buy a condo in Thailand. Stick to renting or buying single-family houses.

[homeless007]

Hi Ripley

Well said. Dealing with ignorant people (mostly). Always being targeted for anything that goes wrong, even with the best intentions by the Committee. Constant accusations of abuse and worse of embezzlement or teaming up with the supposedly always corrupt management. Before every AGM the wannabes coming out of the bushes with ridiculous ideas, complaints, shit-stirring. Constant personal attacks and threats. Dealing with two very much opposerd cultures and trying to compromise to get things done. New Committee members with no clue to the substance of the job, pushing ridiculous ideas that have been discussed 100 times already, every year going through the motions of spending hours and hours with some senile Pattaya experts babbling away and so on. I could add 100 items. I have made the mistake of having been involved in a Committee. I regret every minute of it. Years of dealing with all kinds of emergencies and plenty of idiots of all kind and nationalities. Most of the members simply give up or walk away or within a couple of month just come to the meetings without any kind of contribution. These and your thoughts are the kind of feedback I hear from many good guys who tried to make a difference in some of the condos in town. So my advise: Don't burden your best years with Committee memberships. A silver lining, the new condo act. is helping to improve the situation somewhat.

[backsoon]

I can speak only about my own experiences for the past 3+ years. Not in BKK, in the provinces. A beautiful highrise condo of over 100 units. On the beach. Sweeping views. Quiet country location. Solid, quality construction. About 25% foreign owners. Built in 1997. Good value for money. No regrets about buying or living there...

But... Management firmly in developer's family hands. For the first 10 years NO Committee, practically NO maintenance. 3 years ago on my demands a Committee formed, still in the same hands. Managing Co cum Juristic Person still in the same hands.

The way I see the situation, - this will never change! TIT!

[Rimmer]

Interesting topic that I will think get more views and input if I move it to the real estate forum.

[123ace]

Appoint an international management company - pay the higher fees and a lot of these issues are solved. By going cheap with a local set up these problems seem inevitable.

[ripley]

Interesting topic that I will think get more views and input if I move it to the real estate forum.

Can't say I agree. Think it's good where it stands because it's specific to condos, committees & governance.

[ripley]

The problem with management companies - even those actually recommended by other condos as straight arrows! - is that they have a modus operandum. A few tricks are:

- Place a clever scoundrel as manager who with the aid of the company's experts takes your condo for the ride of its life

- Put an efficient, personable manager in charge. After a month or so, return him/her to the "stable" and place an incompetent or a goon instead-

- Begin replacing your original staff - office, reception, cleaning, engineering, etc. - with their own people - usually of poorer quality

- Represent themselves to be providing legal counsel, which claim and counsel turns out to be entirely bogus and misleading

In other words, set themselves up firmly in control so that everything they do is cleverly covered up and they pretty much "own" your bldg.

I wonder which is the better way to go. All ways are fraught.

I chose to own a condo because I hated hitting town and doing the rounds every single year to get a good location, security and decent amenities at an affordable price. I found that the adverts for cheap places were non-starters. Also, the prices of condo ownership were very much cheaper in Thailand than elsewhere.

Unlike a house, one is permitted to own the property outright and a maintenance fee is meant to cover all upkeep except furnishings. The presence of other tenants, security guards and systems makes me feel safer. Houses have many hidden costs - I think more so than condos.

If I had the dough my first choice would be to check in to a 5-star hotel or residence situation. But I don't....so I don't.

[123ace]

The problem with management companies - even those actually recommended by other condos as straight arrows! - is that they have a modus operandum. A few tricks are:

- Place a clever scoundrel as manager who with the aid of the company's experts takes your condo for the ride of its life

- Put an efficient, personable manager in charge. After a month or so, return him/her to the "stable" and place an incompetent or a goon instead-

- Begin replacing your original staff - office, reception, cleaning, engineering, etc. - with their own people - usually of poorer quality

- Represent themselves to be providing legal counsel, which claim and counsel turns out to be entirely bogus and misleading

In other words, set themselves up firmly in control so that everything they do is cleverly covered up and they pretty much "own" your bldg.

I wonder which is the better way to go. All ways are fraught.

I chose to own a condo because I hated hitting town and doing the rounds every single year to get a good location, security and decent amenities at an affordable price. I found that the adverts for cheap places were non-starters. Also, the prices of condo ownership were very much cheaper in Thailand than elsewhere.

Unlike a house, one is permitted to own the property outright and a maintenance fee is meant to cover all upkeep except furnishings. The presence of other tenants, security guards and systems makes me feel safer. Houses have many hidden costs - I think more so than condos.

If I had the dough my first choice would be to check in to a 5-star hotel or residence situation. But I don't....so I don't.

In PM you pay for what you get. Fees are way to low relative to the level of performance expected in foreign dominated buildings. Many owners have condo's that cost well in the region of 1m$US and they pay peanuts for the managers - the problems you identify are easliy solved, and are a sympton of low end local PM companies with less accountability.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

The condo my wife and I live in, is on the beach and has 38 units, 2 units per floor 255m2 and a 3x3 store room (drivers quarters) for each condo. The management maintenance fee is 21 baht per m2. The building was completely painted a year ago and has three guards and 5 or 6 maintenance cleaning personnel. Most of them have been here since the building was constructed, 11 years ago. It is run by a manager who reports to the board and has been here since the beginning.

They do a reasonable job of maintaining it but the board tends to ignore request for information on the money status and budget plans for the next year. Since they do not respond to my emails requesting information I have held back on paying my maint. fee until I know what is happening to the $$. A few others have done the same so it will be interesting to see what happens. Probably nothing as they have over 14 million baht in the fund.

It is a fantastic place to live and we really enjoy it here.

[frodo77]

In my condo building, the Juristic person owns 40% of the units. There is no Residence Committee, no bulletin board. She gives bills for extra work, such as painting the building, that are definitely inflated a lot. If you don't pay these bills (not mtce fees), she cuts off the electricity and/or water, which I know is illegal. Most foreign owners are short time visitors, so very difficult to get together, and even if we could and vote her out, one year later she would come back and vote us out.

[ripley]

123Ace: I don't know whether it's permitted on the Forum to name names but, if so, which companies would you regard as "high end" & accountable?

Our bldg. recognized that good management was essential. It would have been willing to pay just about anything & explored some options in Bgk as well as Pattaya. It asked other apparently well-run condos & also advertised & interviewed private applicants for manager position. No luck. And the subsequent trial

periods were disastrous. It would be great to have some suggestions & personal recommendations for PM here on this site.

I'm curious about the number of people who live relatively un-troubled lives in bldgs without organized, participatory governance. Is all the fuss about committees, managers, owner input justified do you think? Is there something to be said for a benevolent or at least subtle and deaf "dictatorship"? (Our bldg limped along well enough for a few years until walls, etc. started to crumble and the dictatorship became less subtle and benevolent.}

Finally (and yes, I'm going to shut up for a while!) I'm still interested in opinions regarding salaries or other compensation for committee members. Anybody?

[yabaaaa]

My wife was on the committee for 2 years its very hard work and no pay. Its a thankless task 90% of people livng in the condos couldnt care less about anything, happy to moan but unhappy to help change things. Your'e also dealing with the mindset of the staff who like many Thais I know are like children or even sheep unable to do or think anything.

What you really want to say often to the managemnet of the building is "get off your fuc***ng idle ar*es get into the real world and do the job you have been paid for instead of treating your job like a F***ing party all the time and on top of that actually ENFORCE the rules which are usually quite sound. Stupid grinning, meaningless smiles weak management and idle employees is what you can be up against in many cases. Rules not enforced and even some committee members going against the rules of the development.

Many of the problems are easily resolved for example I compalined about dogs being fed by staff in our units, result "its only a few" came the reply, I complained about folk smoking where they shouldnt result they put up no smoking signs and people still smoke there and no one says anything. I asked the committe how many folk had actually been fined the 2000 baht and had received the 2000 baht fine , result, No response. Spineless and gutless its an uphill struggle for the simplest of things that a kindergarten kid could sort out in 5 minutes.

Security staff asleep at their desks at 3 am with photos taken, result, nothing was done.

In the real world they would all be out of a job.

Thats my experience of condo management.

[ChiangMaiFun]

123Ace: I don't know whether it's permitted on the Forum to name names but, if so, which companies would you regard as "high end" & accountable?

Our bldg. recognized that good management was essential. It would have been willing to pay just about anything & explored some options in Bgk as well as Pattaya. It asked other apparently well-run condos & also advertised & interviewed private applicants for manager position. No luck. And the subsequent trial

periods were disastrous. It would be great to have some suggestions & personal recommendations for PM here on this site.

I'm curious about the number of people who live relatively un-troubled lives in bldgs without organized, participatory governance. Is all the fuss about committees, managers, owner input justified do you think? Is there something to be said for a benevolent or at least subtle and deaf "dictatorship"? (Our bldg limped along well enough for a few years until walls, etc. started to crumble and the dictatorship became less subtle and benevolent.}

Finally (and yes, I'm going to shut up for a while!) I'm still interested in opinions regarding salaries or other compensation for committee members. Anybody?

a salary would break your visa restrictions (assuming its a retirement visa) so be careful of that one - I am on a couple of committees and you just have to accept TIT - dealing with Thais (as someone commented) is like managing a class of 12 year olds - its just the way it is - do what you can and down a couple of beers

[ripley]

I think anyone who dismisses Thais as being "children" is making a huge mistake. The East is sometimes incomprehensible to the West but each is foolish to so underestimate the other. Thais do just fine, thank you, at reaching their goals. It's useful in a condo and elsewhere to identify what those goals are. Useful also to observe that, in any country, the native born know exactly how to get their work done.

I'm not attempting to be "politically correct" here - that's a waste of air and a spade is a spade. But, in general, it's the westerners that I see treating staff like slave labour, kow-towing to the wrong people, playing petty politics, grand-standing and creating unpleasant dramas. Many seem to think they've bought a piece of paradise and everything happens by magic.

Edited April 1, 2010 by ripley

[ChiangMaiFun]

I think anyone who dismisses Thais as being "children" is making a huge mistake. The East is sometimes incomprehensible to the West but each is making a huge mistake to so underestimate the other. Thais do just fine, thank you, at reaching their goals. It's useful in a condo and elsewhere to identify what those goals are. Useful also to observe that, in any country, the native born know exactly how to get their work done.

I'm not attempting to be "politically correct" here - that's a waste of air and a spade is a spade. But, in general, it's the westerners that I see treating staff like slave labour, kow-towing to the wrong people, playing petty politics, grand-standing and creating unpleasant dramas. Many seem to think they've bought a piece of paradise and everything happens by magic.

for the record... I always treat everyone wth respect and consideration - I merely observe, in my times here, that (generally) Thais often act much like children - not all but some - they drive like kids and often act in a very immature way - maybe children isnt the right wording but you get what i mean - the problem is the native born often do NOT get the work done - nor do they join committees and try and improve things - i go to many differnet condo meetings and 80% farang - and those are the ones who have, perhaps, lived overseas or have a farang husband. By the way I know of some farangs who are complete idiots so don't assume my view is one-sided!

[123ace]

The working enviroment was once described to me a being similar to a cross between a youth club and a chimp's tea party.

[yabaaaa]

The working enviroment was once described to me a being similar to a cross between a youth club and a chimp's tea party.

Id swap em any day probably get more done, as for the post about "The thai way" Yep the Thai way, do as little as possible as slowly as possible then when its done do it again about 3-4 times until it might be right but probably wont, sums it up.

No its not all Thais but an awful dam_n lot of em.

[thailife69]

Barky What is the name of the new management company. We urgently need a management company thats works for all, not a few and observes the Condominium Act. Thanks in advance.

Edited April 1, 2010 by thailife69

[hhgz]

"How, for instance, did you get the flyers into the mailboxes?"

In my building, all of the mail boxes are located in a "mail room". At the top of each mail box, there is an "opening" that allows "mail" to be inserted and stored in the mail box. Complicated, but I've figured it out.

Thailife, my building uses "SMTS" as the management company, and they're pretty good.

Edited April 1, 2010 by hhgz

[ripley]

Good point about the visa laws. Do you think allowing certain privileges or reduction of maint. fees would fall under visa law?

I'd also be interested in what tips or counsel you'd give to someone considering buying a condo or serving on a committee. For instance:

ALWAYS:____________________ and NEVER:______________.

Has anyone encountered a strong class or caste system amongst Thais? I believe this might be so deeply ingrained as to influence votes and repress criticism.

[ripley]

Sorry to see that this thread has died out. Would have liked to read people's experiences & info.

[hhgz]

"Has anyone encountered a strong class or caste system amongst Thais?...Sorry to see that this thread has died out. Would have liked to read people's experiences & info."

You started this discussion with suspicion and innuendo. We tried to provide some insight, and you follow up with more suspicion and innuendo, and even some racism. Not sure exactly what you are trying to do.

[ripley]

I started with straight questions inviting straight answers, ideas and more straight questions from others.

I wanted to say this much, but where you get "suspicion...innuendo...racism" will most likely remain a mystery as I'm not interested in a sidebar squawking session on personalities. Just don't bother.

[ripley]

Revisiting old files I came upon an interesting article by Soho Properties about the New Thai Condominium Act. The article discusses the Pros and Cons of the act. This quote is particularly interesting:

"Although the Condominium Act itself is a bit vaque, the Land Department has confirmed to me thaqt in order to register a CAM fee increase with them, and make it a legal increase, there would need to be 75% or more of all of the condominium co-owners to approve the increase in CAM fees in a general meeting."

It goes on to say: "This is just practically impossible for most condominiums to do. The chances of having 75% of co-owners in the same place at the same time, for them all to give up their social arrangements to attend a general meeting - it just can't happen,.

So, the condomiium doesn't increase its CAM fees and it slowly falls ito a derelict state, or the CAM fees are increased ignoring the 75% rule, and the increase is not legally registered with the land department. What if the co-owners refused to pay the increase in CAM fees? Well, this is where Thyai law really makes things difficult. There's nothing the condominium can do."

I think the problem might be solved by a comprehensive list of contact numbers, addresses and/or email addresses. A bit of work and Proxy arrangements could be made so that owners can vote in absentia.