Fred On Expats ...

[Oneman]

.

Expats who already know Fred, will understand.

For those who don't, please let me introduce him.

He has come to Thailand more times, over more years, than most of us.

But he lives in Mexico.

Fred writes ... sometimes about expats.

When he does, it's worth reading.

Worth reading for better understanding of ourselves.

And worth reading, especially, for sharp reminders of what we left behind.

From Fred's latest essay about expats, I've prepared a short digest here.

You can do your own translation from Mexico to Thailand.

(For the full essay and more Fred, link is below.)

-- Oneman

Chiangmai

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Why Mexicans Don't Like Gringos

[Translation: Why Thais Don't Like Farang]

by Fred Reed, March 25, 2010

In the grand casino of existence, the deck is stacked against amity. Ain’t no kind of people likes any other kind. British Canadians hate the French. In the US, whites hate blacks hate browns. In India, Hindus hate Muslims. Irish Catholics hate Irish Prots. Diversity is a terrible idea. Nobody don’t much like nobody. That’s just how it is. ...

When you are in somebody else’s house, you mind your manners. Enough expats, usually women, don’t understand this. It doesn’t take many. For example: On the intercity bus ... an inattentive gringa missed her stop just outside of town and freaked out at the thought of going to the next stop and an hour away. She began yelling, and I mean yelling, at the driver to stop. He didn’t understand her, this being Mexico where the language, surprisingly, is Spanish. She turned abusive and screamed—this is verbatim—“You are the worst! You suck! You are the worst!” This in front of a busload of Mexicans. I refrained from strangling her, and have regretted it ever since.

Then there is money. Many, perhaps most, gringos here ... flaunt their dough or, more correctly in most cases, seem to be flaunting it because they can’t imagine the Mexican perspective. You see BMWs, flashy SUVs. The owners of these Cleopatrian barges don’t mean to offend.. Perhaps they think they have earned what they have, and mean to enjoy it. To Mexicans who work for a living, and not that hot a living, the (to them) lavish display is easy to resent. Very easy.

American women, greatly more than their husbands, want to turn Mexico into a replica of the United States, a transformation which Mexicans astoundingly do not find desirable. In Mexico, there are bars which by tradition are for men only. Cellulitic dyed-blonde wrinkle whales shove their way in, expecting Mexico to rearrange itself for their convenience, and are hated for it. Hereabouts, if a bar-owner has a pooch, and said horror chooses to wander through, or curl beneath a table to sleep, it is regarded as a tragedy of lesser magnitude than the San Francisco earthquake. ... On three separate occasions, one of which I watched, a gringa has gotten her knickers in a twist about the Beast beneath the Table, perhaps fearing aerosol rabies, and begun yelling at the bartender. Self-absorbed meddlesome arrogance does not play well locally.

An American woman, studying Spanish with an acquaintance of my wife, complained to her teacher that because of economic straits in America she and her husband had barely been able to buy a ritzy house in Mexico and would have to put off buying a second car. The teacher later commented wryly, “I’m thirty-five and I’ve never owned a car or a house.”

A gringo I know, nice guy actually, tried to buy a computer part from a Mexican dealer, who didn’t have it in stock but offered to go to a nearby supplier and get it. The gringo told the fellow to pick up a coke and some potato chips (or some such) for him. Would you tell the proprietor of an electronics store in the US to buy snacks for you? But you see, all Mexicans are house boys.

http://www.fredoneverything.net/MexicansDo...keGringos.shtml

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[johna]

Porfirio Díaz

Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States!

"¡Pobre México! ¡Tan lejos de Dios y tan cerca de los Estados Unidos!"

José de la Cruz Porfirio Díaz Mori (September 15, 1830 – July 2, 1915) was an accomplished general and the President of Mexico continuously from 1876 to 1911,

[BLUEEYEDTHAI]

This guy is right on!Very interesting blog.

[samuibeachcomber]

do farangs really flaunt their wealth in thailand?I know rich thais do.The nearest example i can think of is the mega farang palaces next to tin shacks in isaan,but there again that's been spurred on by his thai wife just so she can rub here old girlfriends noses in the dirt.

[Ulysses G.]

I like some of Fred's stuff, but I don't like lumping all Western women together in a negative way. There are plenty of good women out there and plenty of screwed up people of both sexes and of every color and nationality. Why promote hatred against certain groups of people?

[eek]

I like some of Fred's stuff, but I don't like lumping all Western women together in a negative way. There are plenty of good women out there and plenty of screwed up people of both sexes and of every color and nationality. Why promote hatred against certain groups of people?

UG, on so many levels, what you wrote is wonderful. Im sure there are plenty of women writers out there too that slam down on men, which is appalling. As you said, why promote hatred against certain groups of people.

[Birdman]

OP is not that sensible to distinguish that there is a difference here and there and another difference and one more and....

[StreetCowboy]

I didn't see a lot of similarity with Thailand, to be honest.

Its a long time since I went to Mexico, and the vibe was quite different from anything I've experienced in Thailand; although also, my own circumstances were different and hence my perception.

If we are simply slagging off Americans, then I'm cool with that, and of course Americans in Thailand are pretty much the same as Americans here. And maybe the same as Americans in the USA as well

SC

[StreetCowboy]

I didn't see a lot of similarity with Thailand, to be honest.

Its a long time since I went to Mexico, and the vibe was quite different from anything I've experienced in Thailand; although also, my own circumstances were different and hence my perception.

If we are simply slagging off Americans, then I'm cool with that, and of course Americans in Thailand are pretty much the same as Americans here. And maybe the same as Americans in the USA as well

SC

Bit confused with all that. Can you start again.

The original poster seemed to be saying that Mexico and Thailand were similar and that Western tourists here were similar to Americans in Mexico.

I don't agree.

Now, its easy to rubbish American tourists, and we can all join in that. But American tourists are actually like Americans at home. Given that, then its probably better to make your judgemnents on Americans in their natural environment, and I've found them a pretty mixed bunch. Take them out of that environment and they may behave differently. We notice the ones that behave badly much more than the ones that behave well...

SC

[gregb]

The original poster seemed to be saying that Mexico and Thailand were similar and that Western tourists here were similar to Americans in Mexico.

I don't agree.

I think you missed the salient point of the entire post.

What the excerpt started out by saying was, people don't generally like people who are different. As an American in Mexico, or as a Westerner in Thailand, you have different customs and cultural values.

The locals will accept you after a time if you go out of your way to learn their culture and adapt to their mannerisms, but if you insist on going somewhere and bringing along your own culture and flaunting it you will seed resentment. If your culture happens to be extremely wealthy or can in some way inspire jealousy, you get Americans in Mexico. If your culture is poor and viewed negatively, you get discrimination such as blacks in the US.

The point is, Farangs are hated in Thailand because we refuse to conform to Thai ways of valuing the world. Not everyone is as blatant about insulting their hosts as the American woman on the bus, but anytime you have cultural differences it is mandatory that you respect your manners until you have completely assimilated into a culture. That generally takes a few generations.

That doesn't mean that a group of well meaning foreigners who have already been accepted by the locals can't spread some of the better aspects of their own culture, but it does mean you have to go out of your way be like them first, before you can expect anyone to want to be like you.

I think the OP nailed it. He's spot on. This isn't only about Americans. All farangs here are guilty of the same sin. Some are better than others, but few truly accept that living in Thailand means leaving your own culture behind.

[StreetCowboy]

The original poster seemed to be saying that Mexico and Thailand were similar and that Western tourists here were similar to Americans in Mexico.

I don't agree.

I think you missed the salient point of the entire post.

What the excerpt started out by saying was, people don't generally like people who are different. As an American in Mexico, or as a Westerner in Thailand, you have different customs and cultural values.

The locals will accept you after a time if you go out of your way to learn their culture and adapt to their mannerisms, but if you insist on going somewhere and bringing along your own culture and flaunting it you will seed resentment. If your culture happens to be extremely wealthy or can in some way inspire jealousy, you get Americans in Mexico. If your culture is poor and viewed negatively, you get discrimination such as blacks in the US.

The point is, Farangs are hated in Thailand because we refuse to conform to Thai ways of valuing the world. Not everyone is as blatant about insulting their hosts as the American woman on the bus, but anytime you have cultural differences it is mandatory that you respect your manners until you have completely assimilated into a culture. That generally takes a few generations.

That doesn't mean that a group of well meaning foreigners who have already been accepted by the locals can't spread some of the better aspects of their own culture, but it does mean you have to go out of your way be like them first, before you can expect anyone to want to be like you.

I think the OP nailed it. He's spot on. This isn't only about Americans. All farangs here are guilty of the same sin. Some are better than others, but few truly accept that living in Thailand means leaving your own culture behind.

I think that you present the case far more cogently than the original quote does. Its prejorative descriptions of Americans give it an air of bigotry itself. It pulls on specific examples to generate stereotypes and generalisations.

But in response to your more coherent post: I don't accept that I have to change or adapt my culture in order to travel the world , or to live for some time in country A or B; if so, I'd have been an Anglican, a Taoist, a Buddhist, and now a Muslim. All right, so you're not suggesting taking those extreme steps to go native... I think that Thais are sophisticated enough to understand discrete and polite behaviour, regardless of whether someone tries to learn the language, and understand the meaning of various celebrations, and why people choose to have a long pinkie-nail....

I suppose my point is that cultural differences are not that important; politeness and civility is, and people should not abuse store-keepers or bus drivers in Korat, or Juarez, or Kentucky, or Kilmarnock or Kabul.

As you say, anyone that flaunts their wealth and drives a BMW SUV through Easterhouse deserves a kicking...you may care to think of the American's jacket in the film Trainspotting...

SC

Edited: text added to improve clarity (I hope)

Edited March 27, 2010 by StreetCowboy

[NALAK]

dont know if Fred has been to Ireland otherwise he would know his generalisation is wrong. Americans hate blacks so much they voted one in as Presisdent.

[Boo]

Not relevant to Thailand also seems to be encouraging negative comments about Americans.

closed